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Are we talking company hype or fan hype?
If we are talking fan hype, you would have to include pretty much every system ever made.
If we are talking company hype, Pathfinder would not fit simply because Paizo has never hyped it as anything more than their version of a popular system that has continued support. 4E would fit because WOTC goes out of their way to present even the simplest change as a grand improvement that will change the game forever to the point that anything less than perfect is going to fail to live up to the expectations established by WOTC. This started late in the 3.5 era with all their splat books and has only picked up steam in the 4E era. I don't know enough about other system well enough to judge them.
Hmm, some would say that Paizo is user-friendly, not munny grubbing Microsoft to WOTCs Apple. I kinda like the comparions...being an Apple hater myself.
Traveller: I'm not sure which version of this I read, but I've never come out of reading a rulebook with so little idea of what the game was actually about. I remember there were detailed instructions on how to calculate your ship's cargo capacity and how to figure out whether you would be able to make the monthly payments on your ship, but I had absolutely no idea what a game session was supposed to look like, or what the players would do. The book had a couple of sample scenarios, and one of them involved trying to leave a planet with a bunch of ridiculous regulations, getting the runaround from several low-level functionaries. Why would anyone want to spend hours of their free time dealing with fictional bureaucratic red tape?Heh, you've obviously never played Paranoia. =]
The one time I tried Traveller, the scenario placed the players on a space ship where someone was a saboteur/spy for another organization, and our job was to interview the people aboard until we could figure out who the traitor was. It dragged on for hours, and the setup of the game was such that we basically couldn't determine anything useful about the NPCs with any of the in-game technology or skills. The most action I saw in that session was hitting a dude with a steel pipe.
I don't know if this was a scenario which was packaged with the core game rules or not, but it was definitely a published module. The problem I had with it is, if I wanted to play a mystery game, I'd much rather do something Call of Cthulhu-ey or even a Sherlock Holmes-type scenario. A sci-fi game where there's little to no interaction with any aliens or tech just isn't terribly interesting. It was also sad to see such a large portion of player handouts devoted to the setting and then playing a module that didn't really incorporate any of those elements.
PARANOIA! I LOOOOVEE PARANOIA!
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Seconding Savage Worlds. The $10 price tag on the core book gets hyped, but that core book is by no means a multi-genre or universal RPG. The fantasy rules are sparse and the sci-fi support is nonexistent except for e-books. It's basically pulp only. The game also has very few non-combat, intrigue, or illusion/charm powers - it's like the infectious fear of clever players jumping the railroad tracks spread from 4th ed outward to several other "modern" game systems.
I'm pretty sure we're talking about fan hype here, at least as much as company hype. Although the idea that Paizo have never hyped up Pathfinder is interesting. Announcing "3.5 Thrives!" doesn't strike you as hype? I agree it's far more the fans doing it.
"3.5 Thrives!" isn't really hype because it pretty accurately describes Pathfinder despite all of the minor changes that have been made. The fact that is all the farther that Paizo has had to go with their advertising of the system demonstrates that Paizo has chosen to support a system and fan base that can to a certain degree hype itself, which is one of the strong points of 3.x/PF, without having to resort to the kind of specific official claims and promises that keep getting WOTC in trouble.
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Hmm, some would say that Paizo is user-friendly, not munny grubbing Microsoft to WOTCs Apple. I kinda like the comparions...being an Apple hater myself.
Considering how nearly every crunchy bit in a Paizo book is open gaming content and they encourage 3PPs to add to PF, I would compare Paizo/PF to a user-friendly Linux like Ubuntu.
I always compared WotC to MS. D&D, like Windows, is the most popular game, sometimes clunky, but always a safe bet because it never breaks entirely and everyone uses it. After 3.0, also matched MS/Windows in that it was the system that everyone else wrote add-ons for. Plus, like the Vista debacle, when they finally got something halfway right and everyone started liking it, they threw all of their successes out the window and made some new monstrosity that they are trying to force everyone into.
I always thought of WW like Apple - Offbeat products with artsy, indie pretenses for the trendy crowd, which were designed only to be used with other 1st party products.
The rules for in-generation character death (and disability) are, more or less, part of the braking system. It's not like you flip a coin every other turn to see if you survive. But the more you look to munchkin out, the more likely you are to have a bad roll either kill or generally ruin your character's overpower potential.
So instead of preventing munchkinning, the system just makes the chances of it working less than 100%? Great.
I'll munchkin out. If my character dies. I'll just try again. And again. And again.
In fact, just assume that I am dead set on playing this character, I'm not going to let a bunch of silly dice decide whether I play it, and I won't be told to change the concept if it doesn't work at first - again, because of dice.
So let's just go ahead, I make the character, and the time we save because I don't have to repeat those rolls again and again, we'll use for repeating this sentence over and over again: "Death during character generation is stupid."
You don't have to defend the old regimen's honour. Nobody is questioning that. And don't bother to defend their intelligence. That is a lost cause :P
Most companies that replace a product hype the replacement as being better than the previous iteration.
No one does, because that's not what they did. Of course, everyone slaps "NEW & IMPROVED!" stickers on everything.
wotc didn't do that. What they did was akin to a car company saying: "Buy the new Futura II. Don't buy the Futura I. That car is ugly. The gas mileage is horrible, and it's a death trap to boot. Worst car design ever. So don't buy that. Buy the new one, which is better than the old one. It's not a death trap any more. We swear!"
YOu can't really blame WotC for doing what's standard proceedure in the business world.
Of course we can. Is there a rule that we cannot? I though the Thought Police wouldn't start their work for another couple of years now.
Just like I don't buy any other product that is advertised the way 4e was, I will not buy 4e. Or anything from wotc. Ever again.
I don't really care for 4E personally, but the amount of villainization that some of you do towards WotC is rather extreme.
The amount of apologising for wotc and the downplaying of stuff they did is rather extreme.
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Heh, you've obviously never played Paranoia. =]
Touche. I would like to try Paranoia someday, but it was like the writer of this Traveller adventure was trying to give the players of the adventure the kind of frustration that a Paranoia character would experience in dealing with the Computer. Like an adventure about going to the DMV, with absolutely nothing interesting happening there.
I don't know.
Maybe its the expansive, detailed and interesting setting that leaves almost every other game not set in the real world in the dust for depth and complexity.
Maybe it is the pure awesomeness of playing characters who jump from floating island to floating island, killing five mooks with a single blow as they engage in a philosophical debate with their opponent, aiming to talk them into committing suicide, rather than having to physical defeat them. While the system is not perfect, it does let you do some really amazing stuff, and rewards you for thinking of cool approaches rather than 'i full attack with my two handed sword and use power attack.'
Maybe its that the basic pre-charms system is actually really durable, allowing really interesting and versatile play.
There are a lot of reasons to love second ed exalted. All that really needs sorting out is the charms.
Sounds like the system has really worked for you, that's awesome! Most of what I've read has been first edition, and other than loving the Dragon Blooded book, I wasn't all that impressed with the setting. Maybe they changed things up for second edition, but it's probably that I'm just not too interested in the designers' influences. Anyway, I don't think the game is garbage - it wouldn't make my list of worst RPGs ever - I just never got why it held the place of honor at rpg.net.
Hmm, some would say that Paizo is user-friendly, not munny grubbing Microsoft to WOTCs Apple. I kinda like the comparions...being an Apple hater myself.
Wotc and Apple. Good comparison. Lots of hype and arrogance all around.
Microsoft and Apple as two sides of the greed spectrum doesn't work, though.
Announcing "3.5 Thrives!" doesn't strike you as hype?
Nope, not really. Everyone (or at least certain someones) claimed that 3e was dead. Paizo said it wasn't. And then they showed it wasn't.
You don't have to defend the old regimen's honour. Nobody is questioning that. And don't bother to defend their intelligence. That is a lost cause :P
If you absolutely insist on a specific character concept and refuse to change it because the dice don't like you, you will have problems in every system or DM out there that touchs dice during character generation and character leveling. The fact is nobody has complete control over how they develop. Some systems, especially older ones, rely more on dice and luck than others, but the fact remains that very few people would play a system that didn't involve at least some randomness in character development just as very few these days would be eager to embrace a system that could kill a character before it even got played. The fact that organized play remains such a small percentage of total gaming is a sign of this. The old regimen may not be as prevalent anymore, but the concepts behind what they did are still important. Most games have found a middle ground, but that doesn't mean that having environments or systems that explore the extremes are bad.
I'm pretty sure we're talking about fan hype here, at least as much as company hype. Although the idea that Paizo have never hyped up Pathfinder is interesting. Announcing "3.5 Thrives!" doesn't strike you as hype? I agree it's far more the fans doing it.
If we are talking company hype, Pathfinder would not fit simply because Paizo has never hyped it as anything more than their version of a popular system that has continued support. 4E would fit because WOTC goes out of their way to present even the simplest change as a grand improvement that will change the game forever to the point that anything less than perfect is going to fail to live up to the expectations established by WOTC. This started late in the 3.5 era with all their splat books and has only picked up steam in the 4E era. I don't know enough about other system well enough to judge them.
The question isn't so much about hype as much as hype that exceeded the product's actual grasp. It's not the presence of hype that indicates a product is over-hyped or overrated if the hype is relatively modest and, more importantly, essentially true.
Seconding Savage Worlds. The $10 price tag on the core book gets hyped, but that core book is by no means a multi-genre or universal RPG. The fantasy rules are sparse and the sci-fi support is nonexistent except for e-books. It's basically pulp only. The game also has very few non-combat, intrigue, or illusion/charm powers - it's like the infectious fear of clever players jumping the railroad tracks spread from 4th ed outward to several other "modern" game systems.
+1....add in I have a friend who really loves the system....says he is going to run something....I get the books than he nevers run it. I don't know why he loves it. As far as I know he played it once or twice at a con.
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Seconding Savage Worlds. The $10 price tag on the core book gets hyped, but that core book is by no means a multi-genre or universal RPG. The fantasy rules are sparse and the sci-fi support is nonexistent except for e-books. It's basically pulp only. The game also has very few non-combat, intrigue, or illusion/charm powers - it's like the infectious fear of clever players jumping the railroad tracks spread from 4th ed outward to several other "modern" game systems.+1....add in I have a friend who really loves the system....says he is going to run something....I get the books than he nevers run it. I don't know why he loves it. As far as I know he played it once or twice at a con.
My town has two major gaming groups. The other group plays SW almost exclusively and I've debated the merits and flaws of the system with the GM of that group on several occasions. We can never quite see eye-to-eye on it.
He is willing to tolerate the lack of non-combat powers and houserule genres that don't fit into the existing products, but my group has a really hard time keeping house rules straight as well as agreeing upon them. I've stuck to d20, FATE, and WW/Storyteller. That covers most of what I'm interested in playing.
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Exalted: Even apart from the fact that the worst campaign I ever played used this system, I have trouble understanding why this system gets so much love over at rpg.net. The concept doesn't do much for me, and the system is kind of a mess.
I don't know.
Maybe its the expansive, detailed and interesting setting that leaves almost every other game not set in the real world in the dust for depth and complexity.
Maybe it is the pure awesomeness of playing characters who jump from floating island to floating island, killing five mooks with a single blow as they engage in a philosophical debate with their opponent, aiming to talk them into committing suicide, rather than having to physical defeat them. While the system is not perfect, it does let you do some really amazing stuff, and rewards you for thinking of cool approaches rather than 'i full attack with my two handed sword and use power attack.'
Maybe its that the basic pre-charms system is actually really durable, allowing really interesting and versatile play.
There are a lot of reasons to love second ed exalted. All that really needs sorting out is the charms.
Yeah, none of this. The problem with Exalted is that it's so full of its own specialness it makes non-fans ('depth and complexity' aside, some folks just aren't moved by the basic premise) bleed from the ears. Which is why it shows up on a list like this! Hell, even it's name teems with braggadocio & hype.
Of course we can. Is there a rule that we cannot? I though the Thought Police wouldn't start their work for another couple of years now.
You heard it here first, folks. Calling someone's actions silly = 1984 Thought Police.
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Every time i played exalted it was really really fun. Some of the outrageous stuff we did. My character swung on a chandelier, jumped to a wall hanging, severing the rope of the chandelier in the process and bounced off just in time to save the princess who stood under it with some mooks and a dragon blooded. They all died, she lived. It was awesome. And my friends pulled off more outrageous stuff. It's just a matter of good description and the rule of cool. I think that Exalted is an amasing idea placed in a somewhat flimsy system. Most of the crap was fixed with second edition, but still.
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Every time i played exalted it was really really fun. Some of the outrageous stuff we did. My character swung on a chandelier, jumped to a wall hanging, severing the rope of the chandelier in the process and bounced off just in time to save the princess who stood under it with some mooks and a dragon blooded. They all died, she lived. It was awesome. And my friends pulled off more outrageous stuff. It's just a matter of good description and the rule of cool. I think that Exalted is an amasing idea placed in a somewhat flimsy system. Most of the crap was fixed with second edition, but still.
It's really kind of a hit or miss game, though in my personal experience, most of Exalted's fandom and hatedom are disagreeing not on the quality of the game but on whether Anime has any value.
Most of my experiences with Exalted really prove the "GM makes or breaks the game" philosophy of game quality.
I started playing Exalted with a GM who basically just used the game as a playground for his GMPCs and we got to follow them around while he indulged in his favorite in-jokes and anime tropes. It didn't end well.
My second Exalted game was under a GM who ran a very intense game where we were pushed to develop relationships with a cast of interesting NPCs that used Exalted's mechanics and background to give them very memorable traits and scenes. The whole game was still very over the top in an Anime way, but the GM took the game seriously enough that we were all able to take even the triple-backflips and 2-foot-wide swords seriously.
I ran a game myself for some of the people who played under that first GM. It went very well, and I managed to convince one Exalted-hater that the game had merit.
Yeah, none of this. The problem with Exalted is that it's so full of its own specialness it makes non-fans ('depth and complexity' aside, some folks just aren't moved by the basic premise) bleed from the ears. Which is why it shows up on a list like this! Hell, even it's name teems with braggadocio & hype.
Exalted: Even apart from the fact that the worst campaign I ever played used this system, I have trouble understanding why this system gets so much love over at rpg.net. The concept doesn't do much for me, and the system is kind of a mess.
I don't know.
Maybe its the expansive, detailed and interesting setting that leaves almost every other game not set in the real world in the dust for depth and complexity.
Maybe it is the pure awesomeness of playing characters who jump from floating island to floating island, killing five mooks with a single blow as they engage in a philosophical debate with their opponent, aiming to talk them into committing suicide, rather than having to physical defeat them. While the system is not perfect, it does let you do some really amazing stuff, and rewards you for thinking of cool approaches rather than 'i full attack with my two handed sword and use power attack.'
Maybe its that the basic pre-charms system is actually really durable, allowing really interesting and versatile play.
There are a lot of reasons to love second ed exalted. All that really needs sorting out is the charms.
Not liking the premise, does not make it over hyped.
People who like it do in part like it because of its setting which really is much more detailed than many others.
Not liking the premise? well fine, i don't much like the premise of toon, I just don't play it, but I don't claim that toon is overhyped because of not liking it.
As for the title, it refers to what the characters are. They are exalted because they are raised above normal humans. That is no more 'Hype' than say changeling.
If you don't like it, your loose, but none of that is it being 'overhyped.'
Every time i played exalted it was really really fun. Some of the outrageous stuff we did. My character swung on a chandelier, jumped to a wall hanging, severing the rope of the chandelier in the process and bounced off just in time to save the princess who stood under it with some mooks and a dragon blooded. They all died, she lived. It was awesome. And my friends pulled off more outrageous stuff. It's just a matter of good description and the rule of cool. I think that Exalted is an amasing idea placed in a somewhat flimsy system. Most of the crap was fixed with second edition, but still.It's really kind of a hit or miss game, though in my personal experience, most of Exalted's fandom and hatedom are disagreeing not on the quality of the game but on whether Anime has any value.
Most of my experiences with Exalted really prove the "GM makes or breaks the game" philosophy of game quality.
I started playing Exalted with a GM who basically just used the game as a playground for his GMPCs and we got to follow them around while he indulged in his favorite in-jokes and anime tropes. It didn't end well.
My second Exalted game was under a GM who ran a very intense game where we were pushed to develop relationships with a cast of interesting NPCs that used Exalted's mechanics and background to give them very memorable traits and scenes. The whole game was still very over the top in an Anime way, but the GM took the game seriously enough that we were all able to take even the triple-backflips and 2-foot-wide swords seriously.
I ran a game myself for some of the people who played under that first GM. It went very well, and I managed to convince one Exalted-hater that the game had merit.
Anime and manga are such varied art forms that generalisations such as that "still very over the top in an Anime way" doesn't really make a whole lot of sense. Sure Shōnen manga, has it's fair share of 'over the top awesomeness',but it isn't really any more over the top than most american cartoons, it just better made(to the point where adults can enjoy it).
While the the Anime based on Seinen manga is really only challenged for quality by a very few HBO shows, such as the wire.
The same goes for the womens and girls manga.
There is a massive range of themes, art styles, tropes, motifs and moods displayed across anime, that any generalisation about all anime is pointless.
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Not liking the premise, does not make it over hyped.People who like it do in part like it because of its setting which really is much more detailed than many others.
Not liking the premise? well fine, i don't much like the premise of toon, I just don't play it, but I don't claim that toon is overhyped because of not liking it.
As for the title, it refers to what the characters are. They are exalted because they are raised above normal humans. That is no...
Yeah, you kind of skidded past my point in your rush to defend Exalted. Reread every post you've made in this thread and you'll see why I say it's been overhyped. Or maybe you won't, I dunno.
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Scion for me. A fantastic idea for a game utterly ruined by horribly broken rules and a messy maths intensive combat system that does not lend itself to cinematic combat in the slightest.huge +1. Another classic "did they playtest this!?!" from white wolf.
I love the idea of Scion, and was all set to run a cool, farm league wrestling game, very tongue-in-cheek, Scooby-Doo-esque over the top game where all the wrestlers were Scions when my gaming group latched onto the idea of setting the Scion game during the Golden Age of Piracy.
Being nothing if not accommodating (and having no problems with a swashbuckling game) I started doing the research and planning when, a week later while reminiscing about the last game with a pirate-y feel (my SpellJammer game) they all realized they really wanted to do that again.
So now I'm running Spelljammer again. I'll get to Scion someday.
I would have to vote hands down GURPS. People seem to love it as a be all end all universal system online but I just find it clunky and over hyped.
It depends on the setting for me. I have had great fun playing and running Fantasy with GURPS, but their Supers setting is a nightmare waiting to happen.
Yeah, you kind of skidded past my point in your rush to defend Exalted. Reread every post you've made in this thread and you'll see why I say it's been overhyped. Or maybe you won't, I dunno.
Not liking the premise, does not make it over hyped.People who like it do in part like it because of its setting which really is much more detailed than many others.
Not liking the premise? well fine, i don't much like the premise of toon, I just don't play it, but I don't claim that toon is overhyped because of not liking it.
As for the title, it refers to what the characters are. They are exalted because they are raised above normal humans. That is no...
The setting has 34 books detailing it, not including very large amounts of setting detail across the all the other books in both editions. Calling the it expansive, detailed, interesting, complex and deep, is not hype. Their are few, if any games that come close to the sheer scale of setting material. Again not hype, a simple fact. Non of that means that anyone has to like it. But it does explain on of the reasons that many people do.
The basic system is actually pretty decent, allowing a very wide variety of play styles and story types. Storyteller has always been like that though. It is what kept White Wolf as the second largest RPG producer for close to a decade. Not really hype.
"The only thing, that comes close to hype is Maybe it is the pure awesomeness of playing characters who jump from floating island to floating island, killing five mooks with a single blow as they engage in a philosophical debate with their opponent, aiming to talk them into committing suicide, rather than having to physical defeat them. While the system is not perfect, it does let you do some really amazing stuff, and rewards you for thinking of cool approaches rather than 'i full attack with my two handed sword and use power attack.'"
But it is an accurate description of exactly the kind of thing that you can do with the system, as well as the themes, setting and mood of the game. To any one who does find such a form of storytelling interesting, it is pretty awesome, and their are few other games that can even begin to handle that kind of action.
If you absolutely insist on a specific character concept and refuse to change it because the dice don't like you, you will have problems in every system or DM out there that touchs dice during character generation and character leveling.
Yes, I will and I do.
But it doesn't matter, because the GMs I play with use point buy and fixed HP.
The fact is nobody has complete control over how they develop.
The fact is that the rules do not describe how I develop. They describe how a character played by me develops.
The character doesn't have complete control over how he develops, sure - he doesn't get to choose his race, gender, strengths and weaknesses - but that doesn't mean that I don't get to pick those things for him.
Some systems, especially older ones, rely more on dice and luck than others
I'm not playing any of these systems, especially not older ones. I'm playing Pathfinder, with absolutely no dice involved in character creation.
I sometimes play other systems, too - we have other games here and there. Among those are L5R (no dice, except maybe those destiny tables, and they are optional) WoD (no dice), Firefly (no dice).
but the fact remains that very few people would play a system that didn't involve at least some randomness in character development
I don't buy it. The fact is that lots and lots of systems don't have dice in character generation (I might be wrong, but I think even D&D doesn't use them any more) proves your claim wrong. There might be people who want to have dice in their character generation or development, but they're not the majority, let alone the vast majority.
The fact that organized play remains such a small percentage of total gaming is a sign of this.
The fact that organised play remains such a small percentage of total gaming has nothing to do with this. It has everything to do with the fact that in OP, you are often limited in one way or the other, like you can't use house rules and the like. There might be other factors, but "no dice in character generation" is but a minor point, if that.
I know, that's why i said that Paizo is like a user-friendlu not greedy microsoft.
Now nobody should mistake lack of greed with desire to make money.
Ah. Got it wrong then.
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Champions/Hero/Justice Incorporated. I honestly don't even know what's system and what's RPG name anymore. It looks like the engine has been used both for similar-but-not-the-same RPGs, then codified. Then used for five (six?) editions of the codified version. And it's all fairly compatible, which I'm sure did not help my experience.
But in addition to a fair amount of online corporate hype (some, i confess, about being able to stop a bullet with their rulebook), one group of players just *gushed* at me about the game system. They were totally convinced, given my playstyle, that once I touched Champions I'd have a gamegasm and never use any other system again.
Creating a character took three days. I think those were four hour days, too, so it was a part-time job. I was promised it was worth it, because I could make my character be *exactly* what I wanted. I wanted to be precognative, and was told it didn't handle that well. Or being significantly weaker than an average person. Or being rich. or... sigh. Whatever.
I see why the people who love it love it. And I might have been able to. Until we had a fight. And it took 9 hours. To get through 14 second.
For. Teen. Seconds.
I rebooted the whole campaign with me as GM in Mutants and Masterminds. Worked much better.
I think the amount of hype is relative to the amount of changes made to the system, the more drastic = more hype, to convince you the changes are good. So WOTC probably wins just by is presence in the market and moving away from 3.5. Pathfinder claims to be backwards compatible, or 3.75, but really is a replacement for 3.5. So it is not completely immune to hype.
As to operating system analogies - GURPS is Unix/Linux (nuts and bolts), Pathfinder is Microsoft (backwards compatibility/licensing), and 4E is Apple (user interface).
Enjoy!
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As for Exalted...East Coast, West Coast...always ended up being really bad anime. I've seen enough anime to know that there is some really good stuff out there. Every game I've watched, almost always turns into a mastabutory, power gaming, bad Saturday morning cartoon kind of thing that somehow devolves into a MY-character-is-just-so-much-more-awesomer-than-yours argument. Or into a Yu-Gi Oh tournament.
...And I End My Turn!
I was in an Exalted game, and yes, it was an exercise in wild-and-wahoo, over-the-top silliness. I HAVE honestly seen Kung Fu Jesus take down Disco Hitler on a pirate ship. A solid gold flying pirate ship where the party never stopped.
However, my best moment in that campaign is that after adventure and adventure of everything raining down ridiculous chaos on us, and the other PCs raining down ridiculous carnage on them, and I'm always in the thick of things with everyone else... the other PCs realized that somehow, I'd never manifested my avatar. I was just always little ol' me. The other PCs were freaking scared of me because I never seemed to have to do anything to get what I was looking for.
Who knew that the best display of power in Exalted was no display at all?
... I HAVE honestly seen Kung Fu Jesus take down Disco Hitler on a pirate ship. A solid gold flying pirate ship where the party never stopped...... Who knew that the best display of power in Exalted was no display at all?
Ok, I have no idea what you just said, but tell me more about the fight between Kung Fu Jesus and Disco Hitler!
* What were their lvls/stats, etc.???
* Why were they on the same solid gold pirate ship?
* How did the fight go down?
* Did Kung Fu Jesus say anything uber-cool at the end of it all??
The most overrated games I have played in has been Scion, Spacemaster, Rolemaster, Earthdawn, Shadowrun, Mechwarrior and any of the World of Darkness line of games (I really can't stand the d10 system)
I admit that I may be somewhat biased against some of these games due to having a terrible GM.
Can you give some recommendations? I've never been into anime, but if that claim is true I would love to check it out.While the the Anime based on Seinen manga is really only challenged for quality by a very few HBO shows, such as the wire.
Right of the top of my head:
Ghost in the shell(both the films and the Stand Alone Complex series one and two + solid state society) which is seriously good, blending transhumanist philosophy, cyberpunk, investagitive crime drama and great action. It is so well regarded, that I know several film critics consider anime the way to make the william gibsons sprawl trilogy (Neuromancer, ect.) into films.
Samurai champloo:
Hip-hop culture and Edo period japan blended and seen through the eyes of a clumsy teenage daughter of an early japanese Christian, a maddeningly stupid and aggressive convict and a ronin swordsmaster. Their journey forming a tight friendship, with strong comic elements, and contains some of the best sword fighting scenes in anime as well as art and music to die fore.
Cowboy Beebop:
Its like firefly, before their was firefly. A collection of bounty hunters tour the solar system in search of a big score, blues and jazz make up the sound track as the crew live on the edge of an empty belly from episode. Again strong comic streak
Michiko to Hatchin
A tour of south america, in the company of Hatchin, a 11 year old girl kidnapped form abusive fostercare by her fathers former lover and escaped convict Michiko. Beautifully drawn, very funny, and with a way of contrasting the poverty and wealth of south america that leaves it in the top flight of tv shows.
Ofcause, it is only my opinion, but i consider these easily better than most of the dross out their. The Wire is about the only show I can think of that is consistently better than these, but the wire was something special.
Continued at work:
If you haven't seen mononoke-hime (aka princess mononoke) you should do so at the earliest possible chance.
Also worth checking out:
Black Lagoon, black butler, darker than black, FLCL, souleater and salt and wolf. Oh and 'arakawa under the bridge' too. I am sure their are people here who could suggest a lot of other cool stuff. I am kind of a novice with anime, so my suggestions are far from exaustive.
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... I HAVE honestly seen Kung Fu Jesus take down Disco Hitler on a pirate ship. A solid gold flying pirate ship where the party never stopped...... Who knew that the best display of power in Exalted was no display at all?
Ok, I have no idea what you just said, but tell me more about the fight between Kung Fu Jesus and Disco Hitler!
* What were their lvls/stats, etc.???
* Why were they on the same solid gold pirate ship?
* How did the fight go down?
* Did Kung Fu Jesus say anything uber-cool at the end of it all??
Considering he speaks of Exalted, there are no such things as levels.
There are nine stats, with a maximum of five dots in them and a minimum of one dot.And it would take a page of two of text to properly write it down.
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Can you give some recommendations? I've never been into anime, but if that claim is true I would love to check it out.While the the Anime based on Seinen manga is really only challenged for quality by a very few HBO shows, such as the wire.
Neon Genesis Evangelion. Don't mistake it for a giant robot cartoon. It's sometimes creepy, sometimes depressing, sometimes funny, always surprising and mind-blowing.
Death Note. The mental and social "combats" are what is over the top here.
Code Geass. Also pretty high on intrigue and mental contests, but also full of drama too. A bit more over the top in every way.
Record of Lodoss War. Very D&D/PF-like. Supposedly based on the writer's tabletop game.
Can you give some recommendations? I've never been into anime, but if that claim is true I would love to check it out.While the the Anime based on Seinen manga is really only challenged for quality by a very few HBO shows, such as the wire.
Neon Genesis Evangelion. Don't mistake it for a giant robot cartoon. It's sometimes creepy, sometimes depressing, sometimes funny, always surprising and mind-blowing.
Death Note. The mental and social "combats" are what is over the top here.
Code Geass. Also pretty high on intrigue and mental contests, but also full of drama too. A bit more over the top in every way.
Record of Lodoss War. Very D&D/PF-like. Supposedly based on the writer's tabletop game.
CODE geass is very cool, and all the better for character design by clamp.
Code Geass and Death Note are addictive in that "Just one more episode" way.
Evangelion is kind of dangerous though. Too many episodes can be kind of scary. I tried watching the second half of the series followed be the movies in one sitting. Oof.
No more talk of NGE, lest I be forced to make a "Most overrated anime" thread!
But on a serious note, watch - Full Metal Alchemist: Brotherhood - Far and away superior to the "original" FMA series (closer to the original manga, with very few revisions made to the story by the animation studio) - lots of Big Alchemy, collision of Eastern Vs. Western philosophies on life, warfare, and concepts like duty and honor, the quest of two brothers to undo the absolutely horrific things they've done to themselves and others, and a setting absolutely crying out for a game adaptation.
Back to the topic.
My awnser would be Mouseguard.
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Thanks for the recommendations, everyone - apologies for the threadjack!
To help get back on track, I'd probably agree with those who've listed Shadowrun as overrated, at least up to second edition, which is where I gave up on it. I loved the idea of playing a decker, but I could never figure out how to make it work in practice, and the fans I asked about it said they basically had to make them NPCs. In general, I thought the concepts were all great, but I had a ton of nits to pick with the execution.
EDIT: I was also really disappointed with all of the published modules I read for the game. I had heard great things about one called Harlequin, but that module commits several cardinal sins of GM-ing, notably: (1) it sets up some fights that the PCs can't win, no matter what they do, and (2) the climax of the entire adventure is
I've actually read "Worst GM Ever" threads which list people as terrible GMs just for running that adventure as written.
On topic:
Doctor Who: Adventures in Time and Space by Cubicle 7 Entertainment.
Do NOT get me wrong, it is a good RPG, with a nice set of easy but suitable mechanics. I own the set and I am glad I do. It comes with nice dice and character sheets and quick play rules.
BUT: most of the reviews of it I have read tend to largely go SQUEEEEEE DOCTOR WHO with maybe some general praise for the mechanics (which again, are good). They fail to acknowledge the following:
1. The rulebooks in the boxset are the Player's Guide, plus the GM's Guide, the latter of which is almost a word for word reprint of the Player's Guide, plus additional material the players actually need access to, and finally but only minimally some actual information on the game universe and game mastering. As a Doctor Who fan, it's also irritating what universe information there is largely focuses on the new series with little reference to the old series. I realize there's only so much they can work in, but maybe if they could have worked in more if they had made the GM's Guide an actual GM's guide, rather than the Players Guide all over again, but more.
2. The boxset comes with an adventure booklet, which by the gaping logic holes and frequent typos in the adventures, clearly was written at the last minute and not edited or playtested. My favorite adventure is the one where it suggests the Doctor be a PC, but then dictates what the Doctor should do as if he were an NPC.
3. The boxset comes with lovely game tokens for your adventure points--which once punched out, do not actually fit back inside the box (unless you leave them loose and sort of try to spread them out, and that doesn't work very well). Generally speaking, the box is sized exactly to hold all the contents as shipped, and so don't think about throwing in, say, any of your own equipment cards or character sheets, let alone the punched out tokens. The cardboard also tears easily (mine ripped the first time I ran the game).
4. GM advice is spotty and inconsistent, from "play fast and loose and cinematic" to "GM fiat is LAW and you can make the players do whatever you want." There are also a number of character abilities which are basically, "the GM completely controls this."
None of these things warrant the often 5 star rating I see the RPG get.
Off topic:
Seinen Anime Recommendation: Read or Die (OAV) and its sequel, R.O.D the TV. My very favorite anime ever. Kick ass chicks (yes, it is a seinen anime, despite most of the heroes being women), lesyay (yes, it is a seinen anime), awesome action scenes counterbalanced with some very interesting politics and intrigue and some mature themes (hence it is seinen and not shounen), with a universe that's sort of James Bond meets League of Extraordinary Gentlemen. The OAV is heavily action oriented, the TV series has a broader scope, with even domestic comedy elements to spy/saboteur intrigue. Note that the two series have different sets of protagonists (with one of the protagonists of the TV series referenced only in post-it notes in the OAV, and the protagonist from the OAV doesn't show up till later in the TV series).
R.O.D the TV is available for free on Hulu right now. You don't actually need to see the OAV to watch it, though certain pieces fall into place more easily if you do.
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Doctor Who: Adventures in Time and Space by Cubicle 7 Entertainment.
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I'm actually running this for a friend this weekend, and essentially using it as a "gateway drug" to get him into roleplaying. I have to say that I agree with almost everything you've said in your post. Had it not been a licensed game I most likely wouldn't have picked it up.
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Thanks for the recommendations, everyone - apologies for the threadjack!
To help get back on track, I'd probably agree with those who've listed Shadowrun as overrated, at least up to second edition, which is where I gave up on it. I loved the idea of playing a decker, but I could never figure out how to make it work in practice, and the fans I asked about it said they basically had to make them NPCs. In general, I thought the concepts were all great, but I had a ton of nits to pick with the execution.
EDIT: I was also really disappointed with all of the published modules I read for the game. I had heard great things about one called Harlequin, but that module commits several cardinal sins of GM-ing, notably: (1) it sets up some fights that the PCs can't win, no matter what they do, and (2) the climax of the entire adventure is
** spoiler omitted **
I've actually read "Worst GM Ever" threads which list people as terrible GMs just for running that adventure as written.
Just as a side note about shadowrun, in the 4th edition they have advanced the timeline again so the matrix is almost exclusively wireless and while you can go full VR to really get a boost you can do most of you work in augmented reality on the fly, so its not like the decker is playing separate from the rest of the group anymore.
That definitely was a big problem in earlier editions however.
My list of over-hyped:
1. D&D 4e - so much hype, such poor execution. For every bit I found interesting or innovative, there were 4 things that were total turnoffs or game-breakers for me.
2. Exalted - Interesting concept, bit of an identity crisis in terms of the scale/genre it wanted to emulate, & so-so mechanics (like many WW games, IMO). And if I'm wrong (and I may be judging the game unfairly), why isn't this game the Epic-level handbook of choice?
3. Call of Cthulu (or however its spelled) - I only played a few sessions and that was years ago, but what I recall about it wasn't fear or horror of what lurked around the corner, but fear and horror at how utterly incompetent PCs were at just about anything -- let alone solving mysteries and surviving sanity-cracking monsters.
There's another list that comprises "Bad RPGs" that includes FATAL and such, but that's a different thread...