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I'd be really curious if this is an "official" Paizo answer because if it is, then my question would be why should I bother to bother to spend any $ with anything involving the Society campaign? If i can just play anything I want at home play via other published materials why should I work to organize 2-4 tables of players on any regular basis as I do now?
Because it is fun?
Because you enjoy the play up to 12th level?
Because no matter where they put the level cap, and I don't think you could validly argue that a level cap somewhere is not important, you are going to have characters hit that cap and retire regardless of what it is?
I know many people who love to map out their characters till the end, and have a very detailed journal of all the feats and skills and classes and whatever they will take from 1st to 20th level (or beyond even!). I enjoy this to a certain degree.
I also know that if you are going for a prestige class, that level 12 really doesn't let you experience the entire prestige class. To create an Arcane Archer, I think a minimum of level 7 or 8 is necessary to take the class, which means only 4 or 5 levels of the PrC. So I am rethinking creating an arcane archer character for my 2nd guy. I might reconsider my reconsider though.
But beyond all that, if going into it, you know what the level cap is, then I don't really see the big deal on why not being able to go over 12 is really going to bother you as much as it seems to.
Also, as another poster posted, there are already 50 hours of play available for level 12+, they just don't gain levels.
My opinion, is that if you are going into character creation and or play with the intention, expectation or hope of playing at uber levels, then perhaps PFS isn't for you.
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I asked Mark this question in another thread. He answered that it was a matter of economics not enough high level modules and AP's sold very well so it was not profitible to write them. Perhaps afer seasn three when there are mor 12 level retirrees they will relent and give us what we disire.
Also in discusions with difrent gamers in my adventure lodge there are many high level spells that alter reality that would not work in PFS.
I say phooey on the 12th level cap we should go to Pazio COn and capture Mark and tie him to a comfy chair and beat him with soft chushions until he relents and writes high level mods for those of us that wnat to play PFS above 12 level. Beware Mark High level players will be on the look out for you, fear the unjustly retired 12th level characters they must live on to adventure another day.
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This could be revisited down the road, as more players cap out. But I suspect that even if it did change, it would be a gradual adding of a level or two. In the meantime, the module play is the best solution.I'd be really curious if this is an "official" Paizo answer because if it is, then my question would be why should I bother to bother to spend any $ with anything involving the Society campaign? If i can just play anything I want at home play via other published materials why should I work to organize 2-4 tables of players on any regular basis as I do now?
That wasn't an "official" Paizo answer. However, upthread there was an answer from Paizo in regards to higher level play...
We currently have no plans to ever increase the level cap to 13 or higher. We do have plans to provide additional opportunities for retired, 12th-level PCs to continue to participate in the campaign. They will do so at 12th-level, however, no matter how much they play beyond retirement.
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Considering there are few characters even qualified to run 13th level plus this whole discussion is pretty hypothetical.
My suspicion, based on the local groups I play with and the cons I've played is there isn't a lot of demand for stuff beyond 12th level and that there are even fewer qualified GMs anxious to meet that demand.
If you want support for high level play then get busy leveling your character and get to 12th level... make sure your sessions get reported. Play Iron Medusa, play any other high level modules as they are released. Make sure they gets reported to PFS also. While they do listen to the forums Paizo makes extensive use of their sales and PFS reporting data when they are making decisions like this. In otherwords... it's fine to ask for high level play, but until the numbers support it it isn't going to happen.
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By the way, PFS's module quality is going up. Take a look at The Dalsine Affair, the best PFS module so far, at least of what I've experienced.
-Matt
So true - I had a wonderful time playing my Taldan magus in this one.
He got to utter wonderful jibes at the big nasty akin to...Your casting technique is, at best, amateurish.
You attended an inferior school.
I'm so planning to finish out the Shadow War plot with him now.
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Tundra, you should be made aware that at the largest gaming convention in the world last year, the Level 12 scenarios were cancelled due to lack of players.
Have things progressed since then? Of course. But probably not yet enough to get past the obstacles people have posted on this thread.
Which is why different people have responded "Not yet, but here's a temporary fix."
Chief Creative Officer, Publisher
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As far as the holy Erik Mona goes I've spent (literally) hundreds of hours running/playing/organizing events with him during those late 90's early 2000's so I have a pretty good idea what his experience is :)
LOL.
Speaking as someone who spent about 30 hours writing one of the few "high-level" PFS scenarios so far, I can say with authority that the number of people who qualify to play the high-level stuff (or who are willing to pay for it, anyway) is still relatively small.
My narcissism can hardly bear the miniscule number of people (relatively speaking) who have played that adventure.
Old-timey Living City classics like "What the?" and "Twilight of the Dirty Turtles" got more play in their first month than this, my holiest of epics, has seen in a year.
We jumped the gun on high-level play as it is, and supplied adventures well before the audience was ready for them.
As I understand it, more players are reaching 12th level, so this is a problem that will sort itself out in a year or two. At that point, we will see more demand for this sort of thing. It'll manifest first in special events at Gen Con and Paizo Con, probably, and once enough people are clamoring for high-level support, I strongly suspect we will give it to them.
But the numbers don't show that the audience wants what we have already provided, and until those numbers go up, we are unlikely to dedicate more resources to it.
The good news is that so long as the campaign remains popular, more and more players will be approaching "retirement." This is a problem that will, I suspect, solve itself with the passage of time.
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PFS in Georgia is pushing hard to increase the number of retired folks! By the end of this weekend, there will be 6 officially retired characters. By the end of July, that number will increase to 13 (14 when our VC gets a character he wants to apply Level 12 credit to)!
/A good number of us are going to Gen Con too. 9 (10, as per above) that I know of are headed up.
//I wish we can show up early enough to have TK run a couple of us through Tomb of the Iron Medusa on Wednesday.
///I look forward to Gen Con 2012 when maybe a special scenario will be released for us retired folk.
////Hell, by next year I'll probably have 2 retired characters (I really want to GM the level 12 arc)!
/////Slashies!
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PFS is Georgia is pushing hard to increase the number of retired folks! By the end of this weekend, there will be 6 officially retired characters. By the end of July, that number will increase to 13 (14 when our VC gets a character he wants to apply Level 12 credit to)!
/A good number of us are going to Gen Con too. 9 (10, as per above) that I know of are headed up.
//I wish we can show up early enough to have TK run a couple of us through Tomb of the Iron Medusa on Wednesday.
///I look forward to Gen Con 2012 when maybe a special scenario will be released for us retired folk.
////Hell, by next year I'll probably have 2 retired characters (I really want to GM the level 12 arc)!
/////Slashies!
Joseph -- I'm right there with you; I have my sorceress that is lvl 12, my fighter is 2 mods from lvl 12 (the special at gencon will be her last mod); It would be fun to have a con-long lvl 12 only module that would allow us to air out these favorite characters... I mean the sorceress just got chain lightning
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I mean the sorceress just got chain lightningYou mean like this?
*faceplant*
If you're referring to the Mage wif da lightning the yes .. but she's a gnome
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Chris and I reached level 12 at the Siege. We're just waiting for our friends to also reach level 12 so we can buy and play the retirement arc...
I mean, my cleric has only gotten to use her heal spell once, darn it!
You don't happen to be a cleric that almost became lunch for a certain purple worm, would you? :)
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I know it wouldn't be official or anything, but what if several fans created a fan-site, and wrote level 13+ modules for PFS characters using their own story arc and such?
That could be fun.
I think it would be considered even less-official--and therefore be even less-used--than the current trend of "just give them our published mods to play."
Not saying this wouldn't work on a small scale. I know there are pockets of gamers out there who still play high-level "Living Greyhawk" adventures (that is, home games set in the Greyhawk world and assuming the LG events as campaign history).
Tundra, you should be made aware that at the largest gaming convention in the world last year, the Level 12 scenarios were cancelled due to lack of players.
I assume you mean GenCon, at which I was at and did see that an event or two for the 12s were cancelled.
However, that does not mean there are not players out there with characters available to play them. I know my group of 8-9 that were at the con could have played but since a few of our friends were unable to attend we decided to wait.
And that brings me to my concern about this area, which is the accuracy of the data being used to make these decisions. I know my personal play records are not nearly as complete as they should be. And who/where I play with is pretty good about reporting results (or at least they tell me they are). I've honestly never paid that much attention to those records, are those what is used to tabulate how many 12th level characters there are in the campaign?
So back to a point I brought up earlier, that the latest 12th level scenario (and 4th of the series) is the current 3rd most popular event ordered on the Paizo Society's "Top Sellers" list. I'd assume the sales of that event must be pretty good to rank that high since it is up against other events released just as recently that have level ranges of 7-11 and 1-5 (tiers everyone is saying have so many more available players/characters).
To me, the logic says that if that many people have ordered a scenario, how do the order numbers compare to the data for characters of 12th level?
Have things progressed since then? Of course. But probably not yet enough to get past the obstacles people have posted on this thread.
Which is why different people have responded "Not yet, but here's a temporary fix."
My concern is that if I do not voice some of my desires (which are not just mine own, mind you) then the status quo will never change. I am not demanding anything, I am trying to let it be known that there are (imo) other options to also consider.
Playing the published adventures is a bit of a fix, its at least an option for the short-term.
I just see SO much potential in this campaign/world that I'd love to see explored more fully, and that is what I am really pushing for.
I have only played PFS at cons and am thus a paltry 5th level, so please correct me if I am wrong, but this is something that occurred to me. Previous "living" campaingns were well alive. One of the draws was your characters have an effect on the story line of the world. The higher level you were the more influence you could have. I especially felt this way about living arcanis. Running around with a 15th level Val I felt like I could influence major events.
That being said I am not sure that PFS is a "living" campaign in the same sense and I am not sure that Golarion is set up for earth shaking events. It seems to me that the design philosophy is different. The world will keep chugging along regardless of PC actions and story arcs aren't designed to have a large impact on the world. I am pretty sure that I have "heard" the developers talk about this on several occasions and I hope I am not mixing up the philosphy regarding other Golarion products and the PFS. If this is the case, low to mid level play is really the design intent and high level play is not appropriate as much as it may be fun/doable/desirable for some.
Now this is a very succinct and accurate way to address a few of the things I would like to see more of, so thanks for detailing it so well, P V!). I echo the notion that it does not often feel like anything we the Player Characters do has much of an impact on things beyond sheer number crunching - being tabulated for how many are in what faction, etc. I know, its hard to decide when who does what matters, but a critical events summary of at least certain events could be submitted by DMs.......something like that is possible!
I don't know that having world-impact has to be level-dependent, but I have found it often was (in other campaigns).
But does anyone at Paizo have any player impact design/philosophy fundamentals they'd be able to share with us?
If I can only run a PC one time at a Con at 12th level before I have to start over it's amazingly not worth it.You can run your 12th level character for 4 scenarios (25 hours). You can also play them in Tomb of the Iron Medusa (12+ hours), and Academy of Secrets (12+ hours). All of this w/o leveling up your character and still collecting wealth. Is 50+ hours of play at level 12 worth it?
I am curious about something I've seen a few people remark about - hours of play time.
Is this significant in a manner I am missing? I don't really relate chair time to advancement, but maybe others do.
To redirect the discussion...
You bring up an excellent discussion point, Tundra.
I would like to experience more meaningful plots and background in my scenarios, and I desire challenges beyond slogging through trivial combats. Fortunately, the PCs being higher-level is not necessary to do that.
So, instead of clamoring for a higher level cap, how about clamoring for a higher-quality journey to 12th? We're already about to receive 66+4 play opportunities in our PCs' careers, so let's advocate for making that path as immersive and as interesting as possible.
By the way, PFS's module quality is going up. Take a look at The Dalsine Affair, the best PFS module so far, at least of what I've experienced.
-Matt
Can't wait to start the Road to 66+4.
I absolutely agree with the higher-quality journey notion, it is absolutely the most important part of any campaign. Had I my druthers (and not just mine) I;d love to see play beyond 12th even, as it is and can be very fun in more ways. Adding advanced skills/powers/experiences makes for a fun campaign/character, too.
Playing Dalsine (and 6 other events) at a con in Milwaukee this weekend.
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I do.
But yeah, everyone is different.
Like I mentioned earlier, I want to get a couple PCs up to a decent level (for *my preference) and then be able to play them at Cons for a long time.
If I build up a couple PCs to 10th or 11th level and then exclusively play them at Cons, I want to be able to play them for ALOT more than 3+3+4 (10th-12th levels) Scenarios before I have to start over.
I love the newly designed system.
I can "quickly" get PCs up to about 10th level and then take them to Cons where I can sloooooowly level them. AND, even when they hit 12th level and "retire" they won't really be retired cuz I'm gonna continue to go to Cons and play them as "retired 12th Lvl" PCs.
Considering there are few characters even qualified to run 13th level plus this whole discussion is pretty hypothetical.
My suspicion, based on the local groups I play with and the cons I've played is there isn't a lot of demand for stuff beyond 12th level and that there are even fewer qualified GMs anxious to meet that demand.
My long-time response to the reasoning about having DMs prepared to run tables like this is two-fold.
You have to get them experience at some point, right? No one is (or should be) demanding perfection.
And secondly, I have found that as soon as characters get to 7th level things get a lot more complex than running for a pile of 4ths, so running a groups of 8s to 10s (and this happens all the time right now, right?) is as challenging as running a group of 15s. Judges that can do one can do the other.
Yes there are spells/powers that cause problems in a shared-world organized play campaign like the Society, but they CAN be dealt with to not have effects that last past each scenario (or aren't allowed, etc.). There are also many other options to choose from, so that should not be a deal breaker.
once enough people are clamoring for high-level support, I strongly suspect we will give it to them.
I think that should be made more clear to people. I seriously think some people will not start playing PFS because the cap is so low (and that means they're missing out!).
12 now, higher someday. I think that's something that more people could get behind, especially now that there's the slow track.
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I seriously think some people will not start playing PFS because the cap is so low (and that means they're missing out!).
12 now, higher someday. I think that's something that more people could get behind, especially now that there's the slow track.
This may be true we will just have to wait until the play numbers cross the tipping point that justifies raising the level cap.
Once that happens we would be able to see if we received even more players, if the play numbers stayed steady or if we lost players due to this change.
Once again I beleive that this is a question about economics, if it is more profitable for Paizo to expand their offering then it will happen. At this point our Paizo overlords have let us know that the numbers are not yet near the tipping point.
So I feel that if you truly want more high level play in Pathfinder then you should work to encourage more play at higher levels.
Its not a matter of losing players, it's simply not enough demand for the material to make it worth producing. Having top notch writers develop material for 12th level+ play that gets run by 200 people just doesn't make sense. The numbers need to be in the thousands. Right now I'd be surprised if there are 200 players at 12th level.
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Orge, I can think at least 6 players in our lodge that have 11th level characters and there are probley more. Thats only one lodge across the country I think that there are at least 500 players that have reached the 12th level cap as time goes on this will increase.
I can see it from both Pazio's POV and Mine Pazio wants to expand the base in order to sell more core products and generate more revenue to expand the comany. From My POV Pazio needs to come out with modules or
other books for expericenced gamers that use thier fine product or loose them as customers because they don't support higher level play
I don't want this to happen. Pazio puts out a quailty product and I want them to continue to grow as a stong comapny but I belive their business model is flawed they need to fully suppor both ends of their coustomer base or loose the expericenced gamers that buy far more product than newbie gamers. I am really looking forward to the painted mini line that has been anounced I hope it includes monsters form the 2 bestriay books.
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Orge, I can think at least 6 players in our lodge that have 11th level characters and there are probley more. Thats only one lodge across the country I think that there are at least 500 players that have reached the 12th level cap as time goes on this will increase.
*shrug*
Your estimates and mine are endlessly debatable. Buy it, report it, the numbers will speak for themselves.
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Personally I think that making the assumptive leap that we are all clamoring for higher level game play from the eyes of ten mod being on the best seller list is inaccurate and doesn't truely reflect actual gameplay. More than likely it's on the best seller list because there are people that are going to buy every mod as it's released just because.
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Personally I think that making the assumptive leap that we are all clamoring for higher level game play from the eyes of ten mod being on the best seller list is inaccurate and doesn't truely reflect actual gameplay. More than likely it's on the best seller list because there are people that are going to buy every mod as it's released just because.
Yeah, that's a good point. There are also some of us who are perfectly happy ending at 12th level. So we'll buy or play Eyes but that doesn't really mean we are pushing for more.
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Personally I think that making the assumptive leap that we are all clamoring for higher level game play from the eyes of ten mod being on the best seller list is inaccurate and doesn't truely reflect actual gameplay. More than likely it's on the best seller list because there are people that are going to buy every mod as it's released just because.Yeah, that's a good point. There are also some of us who are perfectly happy ending at 12th level. So we'll buy or play Eyes but that doesn't really mean we are pushing for more.
Exactly... the level cap essentially pushes people to try different classes and class combinations.. and if they want to play the latest and greatest then there are the books that that information is in..
I'm in an inbetween place... I'm good with the level cap, but yet would love the chance to break my retired characters out and play them again -- and, if I remember correctly, we've been told that once there are the numbers (pesky stats) they'll provide us with scenarios for retired characters.. so until I can break out my little soreceres I'm going to have fun with my oracles, my inquisitor, and ooo maybe I'll make a barbarian too!!!!
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ooo maybe I'll make a barbarian too!!!!
a gnome barbarian?!? oh gawd, I need an aspirin :-)
IMO there are just as many people who want a higher level game as there are those that don't. I also believe that there is an even larger group, probably a majority, that don't really care what the cap is. They are just casual players.
That said, just because some of us know a few players with a level 12 character does not necessarily support a group large enough to increase the cap and dedicate scenarios for them.
If there truly was a market for it, I'm sure Paizo would support it. They are in business to make money after all. The company has proven to be quite successful both with the quality of their products and the directive decisions they make. I trust their research that seems to show it is not currently a direction worth pursuing. And I trust that when/if that changes, they will adjust to the needs/wants of their customers.
Until then, play your PFS characters to level 12 and play your Adventure Path characters to level 20. And have fun doing it!!
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I seriously think some people will not start playing PFS because the cap is so low (and that means they're missing out!).
12 now, higher someday. I think that's something that more people could get behind, especially now that there's the slow track.
This may be true we will just have to wait until the play numbers cross the tipping point that justifies raising the level cap.
Given the gamer desire to feel elitist/willingness to be a first adopter (even priding in it) I think a 'wait until there is a demand' is a mistake here.
Moving slightly before there would be such would be far more optimal.
That was one of the appeals for Living Greyhawk in that in theory you could become the big fish in the small pond and influence events. The feeling of self-importance was catered to there, regardless of any reality one way or the other. Further it catered to those that wanted to be part of the process at a local level to a degree that other living campaigns have not reached. I think that this was responsible for a great degree of its success.
-James
Unfortunately catering to narcissism isn't necessarily a good business decision.
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I'll start out with the disclosure. I really don't like high-level play. Cancel that, I really dislike high level play. One of the reasons I enjoy PFS is that it caps out at 12 (about 15 is as high as I can stand even a little). I'll also disclose that a lot of comparisons to LG and such here have rubbed me the wrong way - I'm glad I wasn't involved with those campaigns. I know I'm not alone, and I know that Paizo has stated that sales of 13+ modules doesn't nearly match sales of lower-level modules. I think until that changes, we'll be hard pressed to see a level cap increase.
That all said, one of the things that makes Paizo such a solid company is that they're good at measuring and then acting, not vice versa. I remember hearing about canceled tables of the Level 12 module last year at Gen Con, and I've heard turn-out still hasn't picked up. While I hope it does (I of course want to see PFS succeed), I think Paizo's measured approach is appropriate and I'm glad to see them doing so. If/when they start to see more measured interest (not just postings on the forums), I'm sure they'll start talking about what their options are. For now though, I think we should just do our best to enjoy the game, realize that we don't all get what we want, but we get enough of what we like to enjoy ourselves, and keep playing.
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Also, just out of note...
Paizo has already had to adjust the release schedule to push back higher level play in favor of lower level play. This is why we now have one Tier 1-5 or 1-7 module every month instead of every other month. Considering this past history, I think it's fair to say that low level play has stripped high level play by quite a bit. That's not saying there isn't interest in high level play, just that one should gauge their interest in higher-level play with the reality that those numbers support the idea that low-level play is significantly more prevalent.
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Also, just out of note...
Paizo has already had to adjust the release schedule to push back higher level play in favor of lower level play. This is why we now have one Tier 1-5 or 1-7 module every month instead of every other month. Considering this past history, I think it's fair to say that low level play has stripped high level play by quite a bit. That's not saying there isn't interest in high level play, just that one should gauge their interest in higher-level play with the reality that those numbers support the idea that low-level play is significantly more prevalent.
Don't forget that in our area most PCs don't live long enough to enjoy retirement.
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Personally I think that making the assumptive leap that we are all clamoring for higher level game play from the eyes of ten mod being on the best seller list is inaccurate and doesn't truely reflect actual gameplay. More than likely it's on the best seller list because there are people that are going to buy every mod as it's released just because.Yeah, that's a good point. There are also some of us who are perfectly happy ending at 12th level. So we'll buy or play Eyes but that doesn't really mean we are pushing for more.
+1
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off the subject, of course, but my boyfriend plays a gnome barbarian. it's an...experience.... ;)ooo maybe I'll make a barbarian too!!!!a gnome barbarian?!? oh gawd, I need an aspirin :-)
I have a Gnome Inquisitor that I made for the sole purpose of playing at Kyle Bairds tables .. because gnomes annoy him ;)
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For now though, I think we should just do our best to enjoy the game, realize that we don't all get what we want, but we get enough of what we like to enjoy ourselves, and keep playing.
+1
I don't share your aversion to high level play, I think I would share your aversion to trying to consistently prep high level modules as a GM. Even if a module is pre-written, it is still extremely difficult to prep such an animal.
I know from specific experience in my home campaigns (we have 3, all at 16th level and up - one of which I'm the GM) that prepping for that high of a level is very, very difficult.
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Another issue that has been brought up time and time again about LG was the significant drop in mod quality towards the end. Not being an avid player in that campaign, I can only draw on the majority of what I've read/heard about LG.
By keeping the scenarios limited to three (now four?) tier ranges and only two per month, it helps to maintain a high quality of material. If we were to raise the cap, it would create 1-2 more tier ranges that would require at least semi-regular releases that would take away from the other, more active tier ranges.
Otherwise, they would need to increase the number of monthly releases which increases the likelihood that the quality could start to slip. The material that has to be reviewed and edited each month stresses the schedule. Not to mention the additional need for artwork.
High level play is possible, but it is also an increasing challenge to create encounters. The extreme variations in character/enemy builds makes it more likely that you can one-shot an enemy or neutralize them with a single powerful spell or effect. It also means that enemies can quickly TPK a party with similar effects. Knowing that you can have as few as three players (plus a pregen) or as many as seven at the table is a huge swing in part resources and becomes more pronounced at higher levels. It becomes near impossible for PC's to anticipate the needed resources for an adventure. This is extremely dangerous knowing that the enemy could have save-or-suck powers.
I have both a level 11 and 12 PC, but haven't played through Eyes of the Ten yet. I had a lot of fun playing both of the characters, but will be satisfied with their retirements knowing that they can return periodically for "special" mods/scenarios. Otherwise, it's time to move on to a new concept.
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A good number of us are going to Gen Con too. 9 (10, as per above) that I know of are headed up.
//I wish we can show up early enough to have TK run a couple of us through Tomb of the Iron Medusa on Wednesday.
I may be willing to run the mod in parts. Maybe the first part on Wednesday at Scotty's. We could break to attend the GM party and then reconvene afterwards. If it runs long, we could meet in the evenings for some midnight madness until the mod is done as long as all the players are in agreement.
I will be running the mod at Origins (assuming we have enough players) and should have a good grasp on the quality of the gameplay and the length of time it will take to play though.
If you are interested, go HERE and let me know so we can try and have a full table.
Mark Garringer is hosting a warhorn site for Scotty's and I will have him add Tomb of the Iron Medusa to the schedule so players can sign up.
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I thought I’d finally speak up a little here. :-)
I shall state right out, that I would love to play high level. Personally, I think that both low level play and high level play have their merits, for different reasons. As has been pointed out, things change drastically when certain things (spells, abilities, etc.) get introduced to the game but this doesn’t mean they aren’t worth exploring. There are all sorts of ways that these can be dealt with from limiting/changing or not allowing the potential ability and more.
For some people, higher level play isn’t their cup of tea. And that’s great! Some people really enjoy higher level play and that’s also great. Those that don’t enjoy higher level play don’t need to play/judge it if they don’t like it, no one will hold it against them. But it would be nice that for those that do, the option existed for them to continue to play those society characters they’ve come to enjoy. I already have two 12th level characters, a 5th, and a 1st and there are tons of modules that are out that we haven’t played. I also don’t enjoy having to constantly make new characters – I’d rather nurture the ones I have and make a new character when a cool idea strikes me, not because I have to.
Unfortunately, organized play is a different beast than home play. It has to be - you have to be more specific on what is allowed and what isn’t, in order to have consistency and fairness. Organized play is a growing organism and as such, there has to be room for change.
And in regards to this, I just have to say, I’m very happy with some of the changes that you guys are working on implementing into society play. I think the slower progression track is a great compromise (though I worry it might cause unforeseen headaches down the road). I’ve felt this whole time that 3 per level was just way too quick, as just when I’m starting to get a feel for a character, they level again. The 3 per level also didn’t let me work out some of the fun rp quirks and personality before suddenly I’m done. Modules should help develop and expound upon character personality and that’s hard when you level so quickly, imo. I have a friend who refers to PSS as the ‘souless campaign’ because of this difficulty.
The module quality is also slowly improving (with some shining examples) so that’s great that it is moving in the right direction, and one of the big things that has kept me interested in pathfinder society when I get frustrated. Having mods that aren’t just treasure hunts, overarching plot arcs, and relaxing the submission process and module word count are things I hope to continue to see in the future. I have high hopes the modules will continue to improve.
I’m also going to apologize right now. I hope this post is coherent. I went to a con this past weekend and the lack of sleep and the extra fun has turned my brain to mush. Gah! ;)
-Toni
Its not a matter of losing players, it's simply not enough demand for the material to make it worth producing. Having top notch writers develop material for 12th level+ play that gets run by 200 people just doesn't make sense. The numbers need to be in the thousands. Right now I'd be surprised if there are 200 players at 12th level.
I was at what I consider to be a pretty small to mid-sized con this weekend, there were 5-6 tables of Pathfinder each slot. Most people there were local or within 2-3 hours drive (we drove 5-6 hours and likely traveled further than most/all others).
I did a quick head count and came up with 9 players that had a character that was level 12. 12 players had a character (9 of them were second characters) that was level 11, not yet 12 so they could play a few mods, but they could have been 12 if they wanted.
I sincerely doubt that those 12 players are in actuality 5-10% of the characters that would justify the claim of there being not even 200 12th level characters in the campaign.
All of the people said they DO want to see play opportunities past 12th level.
From My POV Pazio needs to come out with modules or
other books for expericenced gamers that use thier fine product or loose them as customers because they don't support higher level play
I don't want this to happen. Pazio puts out a quailty product and I want them to continue to grow as a stong comapny but I belive their business model is flawed they need to fully suppor both ends of their coustomer base or loose the expericenced gamers that buy far more product than newbie gamers.
I completely agree with this.
And the frustration I feel about this in regards to the Society play is that Paizo IS producing quality events past level 12, just not for the Society.
The Adventure Paths clearly go past level 12 (generally to the 15-16 range, right?). And aren't those some of the best-selling products they sell (besides the Core rulebooks)?? So for those making the argument that higher-level products don't sell and/or that most people stop playing at about level 12, are you saying most of the home-game Adventure Paths stop playing after book 4 or 5? I am betting that most finish all the way through.
Thus to me, the logic of the arguments about why not to do scenarios past level 12 just does not hold.
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Director of Brand Strategy
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I did a quick head count and came up with 9 players that had a character that was level 12. 12 players had a character (9 of them were second characters) that was level 11, not yet 12 so they could play a few mods, but they could have been 12 if they wanted.
I sincerely doubt that those 12 players are in actuality 5-10% of the characters that would justify the claim of there being not even 200 12th level characters in the campaign.
All of the people said they DO want to see play opportunities past 12th level.
If those players want to see more post-12th level opportunities, I suggest they get those 12th level PCs through Eyes of the Ten and report their sessions. If we see a huge influx in 12th level play, we will readjust our plans for high-level events based on that. Until more than a handful of people have played the highest level stuff we've offered, we won't be investing resources in catering to even higher-level play.
Personally I think that making the assumptive leap that we are all clamoring for higher level game play from the eyes of ten mod being on the best seller list is inaccurate and doesn't truely reflect actual gameplay. More than likely it's on the best seller list because there are people that are going to buy every mod as it's released just because.
I, and no one else that I have seen yet, is saying that _everyone_ wants higher level play options.
What I am saying is that a lot of players do.
More than what is represented in the play numbers for the events or is generally being portrayed on these message boards.
Another interesting common theme this weekend was that everyone I talked also said their play records were woefully inadequate. But they as players also did not care. I don't think it is logical to most players that said database would be what so many of the campaign decisions are made from.
And really, you want to make the argument that the order total is high because people want to add it to their collection? I am not saying that is impossible, but few people are so anal or $$-flush to be giving it away like that. By that logic, it would then also mean that most of the below 12 mods are also being ordered for collecting purposes. I just don't buy that reasoning.
BTW, Eye of Ten Part IV is now #2 on the Society Top Selling list....(the collectors must have been busy this weekend) :)
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Chief Creative Officer, Publisher
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I'm curious to hear from those folks who'd like more high-level play opportunities to speak to what exactly they would like to see us do?
We've got the Eyes of the Ten series, which based on play reporting and sales, seems like it came out too early and a lot of people are still waiting to play it, even though they have characters who qualify. I must confess that this puzzles and frustrates me (mostly as the narcissistic author of the first one, but also as publisher). It seems to me that, despite our best intentions, the Eyes of the Ten series does not appropriately speak to the desire of the folks clamoring for high-level play.
We've also sanctioned high-level Pathfinder Modules for Society play, specifically Tomb of the Iron Medusa (level 14) and (very soon) Academy of Secrets (level 13). I'm guessing that the nature of module play in the Society means that these efforts don't appropriately scratch the high-level itch, either.
So from my perspective, both efforts we have made to improve high-level play opportunities for the campaign have been failures, partial failures, or are too early to tell.
If these options are not sufficient, what would be?
Adding high-level tiers to all adventures?
Adding more high-level adventures at the expense of low- or medium-tier events?
Special high-level scenarios at Gen Con? (High-level "megadeath" events, etc.?)
What is it, exactly, that would satisfy your desire for more high-level PFS play?