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I'd just like to chime in, here, that when I started playing PFS (and that wasn't till December of Year One) there was nothing in the organized play guide indicating that the campaign would cap at 12.I've been around since the beginning and it was common knowledge that the cap was 12. I'll have to dig around and see if I still have the Season 0 guide, but I'm pretty sure that it's in there.
The oldest version I have on hand is 2.1 (12/4/09) and it clearly states the level cap on page 17.
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The oldest version I have on hand is 2.1 (12/4/09) and it clearly states the level cap on page 17.I'd just like to chime in, here, that when I started playing PFS (and that wasn't till December of Year One) there was nothing in the organized play guide indicating that the campaign would cap at 12.I've been around since the beginning and it was common knowledge that the cap was 12. I'll have to dig around and see if I still have the Season 0 guide, but I'm pretty sure that it's in there.
17 or 12?
I also find it interesting that, of those arguing against the higher level notion, every single VC that has posted has been against it. To me, this flies in the face of the "Explore/Cooperate" aspect of the campaign. Accommodating all interested players is part of a VC's charge, right? or is it just for new players?That's odd, I don't remember posting against it. I even went back and looked.
Mark, you make a good point and I apologize for mis-speaking. I should not make complete blanket statements. Not every VC has posted against this notion.
Maybe what I more meant to say is that I get a distinct feeling that most of the VCs that have posted here are, in the least, not in support of the notion.
And I don't believe what you are claiming is specifically in the RAW of the job description if you want to go there. I certainly don't, I'm just saying.
I don't know exactly what is in the RAW of these positions, but I'd guess that its main function is to promote PFS and thus by default also represent Paizo.
To this point, I feel that much of the VC reaction to this request has had a very dismissive tone. In spite of many people (and Mr. Mona) saying that the play record database is "pretty pathetic", the general response has been "go report results, maybe something will happen." And of all the involved people short of Paizo employees, the VCs should know dern'd well how powerless the players may be to report results in a meaningful manner.
Honestly, I think some of it may come from the perception that there WAS a log jam of available scenarios which we are kinda just starting to clear out from. The implication being that there is only so many hands to do the work, and the majority would rather see the work done in X rather than in Y. To me if there is player support for it and company support for it game on. I don't want to play games at those levels and nobody can force me to run them, so their state of existence doesn't really matter to me.
I agree with the first part of your statement, and to me it is (was) more about the 1-7 5-9 7-11 tiering system. Though it seems the new dedication to consistent monthly releases has ironed this out a great deal.
I appreciate your honesty in saying that you don't have personal interest to play/judge events over 12 but are cool if others do want that options.
My problem is that this is not the opinion others have shared, its clear most people arguing against this would strongly prefer to have it just go away, and I feel it is important to point that out.
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For what it's worth, Frozen, I do respect your opinion. I respect the fact that there are lot of people out there that like high level gaming. I respect that they should get their opportunity to play in high level games.
What I don't get is why you would enter into this campaign with the attitude of we'll just change the rules when we get close to maxing out. I try to go into these things with my eyes open. Were you not aware of the level limt? Does having that level limit somehow eliminate the fun of reaching that limit?
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From what I've been reading and hearing, there simply aren't enough retired characters for them to really do anything yet. Doesn't mean that they won't.
Pretty much.
Like I said a moment ago, I'm at PaizoCon right now and there is not enough interest to make a table go off. What makes you think there is such an abundance of interest globally to justify the investment it takes to make more high level adventures?
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I would like to point out as said here that once again the Level 12 mods are not making tables at one of the biggest PFS conventions.
EDIT: Gallard beat me to it!
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From what I've been reading and hearing, there simply aren't enough retired characters for them to really do anything yet. Doesn't mean that they won't.Pretty much.
Like I said a moment ago, I'm at PaizoCon right now and there is not enough interest to make a table go off. What makes you think there is such an abundance of interest globally to justify the investment it takes to make more high level adventures?
In order to play it myself, I've had to coordinate with people from different states to play at two different small conventions; one in Michigan and one in Iowa, in order to play this series ..
I understand the desire for high-level play, but I personally don't see the demand for it that has been stated is there. I'm sure a few people here and there are at that point and want more, but overall the demand just isn't there and until it is I can see why Paizo isn't going to expend the enormous amounts of resources it will take to support the higher level game play....
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Maybe what I more meant to say is that I get a distinct feeling that most of the VCs that have posted here are, in the least, not in support of the notion.
Most of the VCs are against it. I can't really tell you why that is, it's a personal choice, and just like everyone else they are people.
In spite of many people (and Mr. Mona) saying that the play record database is "pretty pathetic", the general response has been "go report results, maybe something will happen." And of all the involved people short of Paizo employees, the VCs should know dern'd well how powerless the players may be to report results in a meaningful manner.
It is, however RAW for the position that you try to the best of your ability to ensure that a) data is being reported and b) quality of the data is high. That's because it's the only tool they have at present. I asked before in this thread, and was ignored about other opinions on what would make a better solution. I can't really think of anything off the top of my head. It's the best tool we have, even if it's imperfect. The data can still tell you things. Coupling the sales data with it can tell you others, and help you understand the potential dimensions of your whole.
I appreciate your honesty in saying that you don't have personal interest to play/judge events over 12 but are cool if others do want that options.
Same thing with Modules for me. I have so little interest in running them myself, but if others want to do it? So much the better! I'm happy to tell players and GMs about them, I just won't be offering to run any of those tables personally. It's not that I don't think the content is great, but I personally feel that the 'standard' PFS format and the Modules just don't work for me. Others are happy with it and it doesn't 'cost' me anything, so sure - knock yourself out :)
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From what I've been reading and hearing, there simply aren't enough retired characters for them to really do anything yet. Doesn't mean that they won't.Pretty much.
Like I said a moment ago, I'm at PaizoCon right now and there is not enough interest to make a table go off. What makes you think there is such an abundance of interest globally to justify the investment it takes to make more high level adventures?
I only know of one group who have gotten through the entire 12th level arc so far, and they did all 4 parts in one weekend.
Here in the New York City area I am part of the one group ready to play the final part and we will hopefully play it in the next few months. I know we have another group that is ready to begin the arc which I will hopefully be gming.
I think after Gen Con there will be more people playing and or finishing the 12th level arc.
Nathan Meyers
NYC
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From what I've been reading and hearing, there simply aren't enough retired characters for them to really do anything yet. Doesn't mean that they won't.Pretty much.
Like I said a moment ago, I'm at PaizoCon right now and there is not enough interest to make a table go off. What makes you think there is such an abundance of interest globally to justify the investment it takes to make more high level adventures?
That's interesting, as I have managed to run/play them at two different conventions in the midwest and we had no problems making a table. Possibly there is just a lot more play in the MW than on the coast?
That's interesting, as I have managed to run/play them at two different conventions in the midwest and we had no problems making a table. Possibly there is just a lot more play in the MW than on the coast?
Were these tables of mostly strangers, or were they folks who played together in a home game? It wouldn't surprise me to see a cluster of 12th level characters if they came from a home game.
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Yep, and that's the first one it appeared in, from what I can see. It wasn't in the version before that, from 9/15/09 (which is the earliest version that I have).Hopefully that ends the "You knew about the cap you were in for when you started the campaign" arguement. I think those arguing in favor of a few limited above cap adventures are not arguing they were somehow short changed when the cap was lowered to 12, but rather than some people would like to play these higher level events occassionally and we would like the campaign to consider having them (rather than making 6th or 7th 1st-level PC).
Frozen Tundra, how long have you been on these boards? Josh Frost went out of his way to explain the level 12 cap. As is, I like the solutions that they came up with for level 12 and higher.
I was able to play the first 4 events at the GenCon they were first offered. I've been on these boards since the beginning of the campaign. Check that, I started, but the general tone and function of them were not something I had lots of time to devote to so I have not been a regular poster. I come here to look for campaign information.
I know Josh explained the level 12 cap reasoning. Josh is no longer here. Thus, I started this thread to see if the new powers-that-be have the same cap notions, and to see if a convincing proposal/discussion could sway that decision. I am glad to see that Eric has said they'll give it serious consideration (and that he believes it is/will be needed in the future).
By the tone of your posts, you're acting all butt hurt because it seems like the Paizo team isn't listening.
I am not hurt in any fashion :)
But I am frustrated. Mostly because the majority of responses to questions have come from a few people's opinions/memories, when what I think was pretty obvious is a question for someone at Paizo. And that's made the thread explode in ways I'd not thought it would.
In fact I know Paizo is listening. Now maybe I've annoyed Mark to no end thus far, but that was not my intent (and I'll prove it with beer for him at GenCon if he wishes).
That said, one sentence responses with no logic or reasoning frustrate me, especially when I am a cash-paying customer so yeah, I may ask for more. But Paizo is (as we're repeatedly being told) in this to make money. Well I have a chunk of the money they want, so I have some right to tell them what I am looking for. And just because other customers don't like what I like doesn't mean I have to be quiet when they don't like what I have to say.
I did not come here to pick a fight with anyone and I am going to respect Mark and Eric's request to avoid he-said she-said things so I am just not going to get into any of that any more (I've already done it and posted far more than I ever intended, but people wanted to pick apart certain aspects and I felt some specifics deserved a response).
I'm very sorry if me listing my "years of service" in OP campaigns turned many folks off, in spite of me specifically saying I was not bragging I think some took it that way. I don't think I am better than anyone. I do think I have more experience in OPs than most people here, and was just trying to share some of those experiences. I know controlling "tone" in electronic communications is hard/impossible, maybe I should have not hoped/assumed most people here would not take things in the most negative light possible.
But I am not going to apologize for using my experience to make suggestions on why another play option IS doable. Especially not when many arguments against it are things that can be addressed without affecting overall campaign quality.
I am not dismissing anyone because they are new or old to a campaign like this, both have a great deal of value (experience is not something one can fake, neither are new/fresh ideas and excitement). I'd hoped that would be a two-way street but to this point on this thread, I do not think that has happened.
I feel like because I am not a daily poster for the past few years here I am seen as an "interloper" - because I will question the what's and why's of how things are done I am some sort of terrorist. I don't follow things blindly, especially not if it involves me spending a lot of personal time and paying $ for a hobby (and I've spent a significant amount with Paizo thus far)
I also really dislike the general notion that pervades so many of the responses on these boards: "This is Pathfinder, don't tells us how to do anything, we don't care what anyone else did in another campaign!!". Is that not a prime example of cutting your nose off to spite your face?
Did I offer criticism of the current state of things? Absolutely. But it wasn't malicious/attacking nor directed at anyone in particular (Eric Mona certainly did not take it that way). I do think there are too many people on these boards that are unquestioning followers. Paizo is a group of people, very talented people, but anything run by peoples can always make improvements. They've admitted things can be better. So I get frustrated when a "vocal minority" of people on this board just ravenously defend everything coming from anyone that is not a "regular" on these boards.
As far as asking questions and getting answers I will also not apologize for then also questioning the foundation of those answers. If you have a reason for something you should be able to defend it. Its already been admitted that the one major piece of data used to make decisions is not very accurate. The initial response said the database was the decision factor, but inquiry about its validity has since revealed that it is not the only variable, and that is what "we" were asking for. I am not in control of the fact that it took 150+ messages to get to that point.
Other people have wanted to continue discussing various points so since I started the thread, I felt I could continue to respond. So here we are.
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Were these tables of mostly strangers, or were they folks who played together in a home game? It wouldn't surprise me to see a cluster of 12th level characters if they came from a home game.
I guess I would say neither. I knew most of the people at the tables (but I con a lot and have been around the OP world a lot) but none of the people (with the exception of the married couple) came to the cons to play together.
I guess I would say neither. I knew most of the people at the tables (but I con a lot and have been around the OP world a lot) but none of the people (with the exception of the married couple) came to the cons to play together.
Were these tables of mostly strangers, or were they folks who played together in a home game? It wouldn't surprise me to see a cluster of 12th level characters if they came from a home game.
Interesting. I'm not sure why it wouldn't be the same for other cons in other cities, then.
Yep, and that's the first one it appeared in, from what I can see. It wasn't in the version before that, from 9/15/09 (which is the earliest version that I have).
The oldest version I have on hand is 2.1 (12/4/09) and it clearly states the level cap on page 17.
There's a post from August 25, 2009 in this thread that suggests that having level 12 as the highest tier was put in the 2.0 version of the guide.
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Interesting. I'm not sure why it wouldn't be the same for other cons in other cities, then.
This was also two different cities in two different states, so it is even in different areas as well. I suspect that you just must have different levels of play activity in different areas of the country.
Back when Living Greyhawk was started the regions were created by levels of play. Its why the midwest regions were made up of only one or two states each where the western and southern regions needed several states to get up to the same levels of play. I would wager that if you ask each of the people asking for High Level play where they live, most of them are probably in the midwest, where the people who say they don't know anyone who is high level, they likely are not from the midwest.
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But I am frustrated. Mostly because the majority of responses to questions have come from a few people's opinions/memories, when what I think was pretty obvious is a question for someone at Paizo. And that's made the thread explode in ways I'd not thought it would.
This is a message board. It is the place for opinion.
That said, one sentence responses with no logic or reasoning frustrate me, especially when I am a cash-paying customer so yeah, I may ask for more. But Paizo is (as we're repeatedly being told) in this to make money. Well I have a chunk of the money they want, so I have some right to tell them what I am looking for. And just because other customers don't like what I like doesn't mean I have to be quiet when they don't like what I have to say.
Neither should we be quiet just because you don't like what we say. Doesn't matter much, you still continue to ignore many of the posts directed at you.
I'm very sorry if me listing my "years of service" in OP campaigns turned many folks off, in spite of me specifically saying I was not bragging I think some took it that way. I don't think I am better than anyone. I do think I have more experience in OPs than most people here, and was just trying to share some of those experiences. I know controlling "tone" in electronic communications is hard/impossible, maybe I should have not hoped/assumed most people here would not take things in the most negative light possible.But I am not going to apologize for using my experience to make suggestions on why another play option IS doable. Especially not when many arguments against it are things that can be addressed without affecting overall campaign quality.
This came across as blatant bragging and an attitude of "I just know better than you"
I also really dislike the general notion that pervades so many of the responses on these boards: "This is Pathfinder, don't tells us how to do anything, we don't care what anyone else did in another campaign!!". Is that not a prime example of cutting your nose off to spite your face?
This is Pathfinder Society. It is not a Living Campaign. There are vital differences between PFS and Arcanis, Greyhawk, etc. Does this mean other experience is wasted? No. But that experience should be tempered with the different environment.
Frozen, if you would just acknowledge that our opinions were just as valid, this thread would have been over long ago.
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Interesting. I'm not sure why it wouldn't be the same for other cons in other cities, then.This was also two different cities in two different states, so it is even in different areas as well. I suspect that you just must have different levels of play activity in different areas of the country.
Back when Living Greyhawk was started the regions were created by levels of play. Its why the midwest regions were made up of only one or two states each where the western and southern regions needed several states to get up to the same levels of play. I would wager that if you ask each of the people asking for High Level play where they live, most of them are probably in the midwest, where the people who say they don't know anyone who is high level, they likely are not from the midwest.
Ive heard many publishers mention that the midwest is the bread and butter for RPGS.
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I would wager that if you ask each of the people asking for High Level play where they live, most of them are probably in the midwest, where the people who say they don't know anyone who is high level, they likely are not from the midwest.
I would like to participate in high-level play, and have a character that can do so.
I know of at least three, and maybe as many as six, other players in my position.
I live in the midwest.
[/unsolicited support]
It is, however RAW for the position that you try to the best of your ability to ensure that a) data is being reported and b) quality of the data is high. That's because it's the only tool they have at present. I asked before in this thread, and was ignored about other opinions on what would make a better solution. I can't really think of anything off the top of my head. It's the best tool we have, even if it's imperfect. The data can still tell you things. Coupling the sales data with it can tell you others, and help you understand the potential dimensions of your whole.
I can't think of anything, too concrete yet either, and I've been giving it some thought. That said, if I do find a great process I may say nothing here and go sell the idea, its probably something one could make $ from :) Customer feedback/product use is incredibly valuable to companies.
I believe some other campaigns (I know I know, heading into taboo-land again!) would stop you from ordering more scenarios if you did not turn in play results from what you'd previously ordered.
*brainstorming*
Maybe Paizo can use a modified form of that. When one orders a Society event there's two check-boxes and they have to select one or the either:
1) official Society con/game day/home play and that the players want credit for in their play records
2) scenario they want to order for collecting/strict home play, no play results will be recorded.
Paizo would get a better handle on what people are using the scenarios for and what to expect play results for. Then they could also pester the orders for feedback on who/what/when things were played.
If players want more scenarios to play, especially those of you who have extensive experience writing for other OP, then start writing and submit the material to Paizo for review. If they get an influx of quality material, I'm sure that Erik would adjust the schedule to add them. If not, then perhaps the quality of "your" work isn't/wasn't as good as you though it was.
I've practically run out of low level scenarios now and finding games is proving tricky. I did indeed submit a scenario of my own, but that was six months ago and I've heard nothing back. I know they're busy, and that's fine, but there's no point generating an influx of material if they don't have time to look at it (other than to increase my personal hit rate). If anything it looks like they have more submissions than they can use already.
If you know otherwise then please say.
This is Pathfinder Society. It is not a Living Campaign. There are vital differences between PFS and Arcanis, Greyhawk, etc. Does this mean other experience is wasted? No. But that experience should be tempered with the different environment.
I actually think that once you remove specifics, it pretty much IS the same. Its where people get around a table at home or at a con/game day and play a game of dungeons and dragons. The little details may be different but, in the end, its all pretty much the same thing and always has been.
Frozen, if you would just acknowledge that our opinions were just as valid, this thread would have been over long ago.
I've never said they aren't I just don't agree with all of them. That's as far as I've gone. If you're looking into it more than that, then that's on you.
And I don't necessarily want the thread to end, not as long as there are some constructive things to share.
But I think you're just trying to stir the pot more, cblome59, which I have no interest in subjecting this list to. If you want to keep talking we can do so in private, my email address is frzntundra4 @ yahoo.com
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stuffThing is, you DO come off as being butt-hurt because they're not giving you the answers you want to hear. They've listed reasons why as well, and you act that it's not good enough.
Good on you for being involved for so long. But given that, you act that your opinion carries more weight than those of us who have worked on the outskirts. It's almost like you want this NOW. It's that kind of attitude that has been getting on the nerves.
Like several of us have pointed out, anything above level 12 is not really feasible at this point. There's just not enough people.
You've been jumping up and down on sales, and yet when they give you info along those lines, you seem not to want to hear it because it runs contrary to your assertions. Right now, it's not financially viable for the company.
I wouldn't mind stuff above 12th. But I think it's gonna be at least another year before they come up with something.
:)
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But I think you're just trying to stir the pot more, cblome59, which I have no interest in subjecting this list to. If you want to keep talking we can do so in private, my email address is frzntundra4 @ yahoo.com
I'm just trying to get my point across, like you. Speaking with you, at times, has been about as effective as banging my head against a brick wall. I know I'm not the only one who feels that way.
Like you, I will continue to defend the game as I see fit, regardless how you might feel about my opinions. As will most everyone on these boards.
No point in taking this private as I can talk to empty air as effectively right here in my office.
Thing is, you DO come off as being butt-hurt....
snip
I don't really know what this phrase means or how/where its commonly used, but I think that it certainly seems more than a little derogatory in nature (at best) and utterly homophobic (at worst). Regardless, its un-necessary in this setting.
Like several of us have pointed out, anything above level 12 is not really feasible at this point. There's just not enough people.
There may not be in your area, but as a good number of others have pointed out, it is more than feasible in their area. And they are asking for some more options. Not 20 scenarios, not even 10. Another 4-8 per year.
I wouldn't mind stuff above 12th. But I think it's gonna be at least another year before they come up with something.
It very well may, but no one has demanded them "now". But since Mark was asking for Season 4 meta plot ideas a couple months ago, now is the time to have this discussion/request so that planning can be done now (Paizo clearly make a plan more than a year in advance).
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But I think you're just trying to stir the pot more, cblome59, which I have no interest in subjecting this list to. If you want to keep talking we can do so in private, my email address is frzntundra4 @ yahoo.com
I'm just trying to get my point across, like you. Speaking with you, at times, has been about as effective as banging my head against a brick wall. I know I'm not the only one who feels that way.
Like you, I will continue to defend the game as I see fit, regardless how you might feel about my opinions. As will most everyone on these boards.
No point in taking this private as I can talk to empty air as effectively right here in my office.
You complain that FrozenTundra is as effective as talking to a brick wall, but your tone is super confrontational and dismissive and also very off-putting. Let's all put this sniping aside, take it down a notch, and try to have a constructive discussion, alright?
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You complain that FrozenTundra is as effective as talking to a brick wall, but your tone is super confrontational and dismissive and also very off-putting. Let's all put this sniping aside, take it down a notch, and try to have a constructive discussion, alright?But I think you're just trying to stir the pot more, cblome59, which I have no interest in subjecting this list to. If you want to keep talking we can do so in private, my email address is frzntundra4 @ yahoo.com
I'm just trying to get my point across, like you. Speaking with you, at times, has been about as effective as banging my head against a brick wall. I know I'm not the only one who feels that way.
Like you, I will continue to defend the game as I see fit, regardless how you might feel about my opinions. As will most everyone on these boards.
No point in taking this private as I can talk to empty air as effectively right here in my office.
Look at his history in this thread and you will see how it got that way. As he refuses to accept facts contrary to his already made conclusion we long ago left this being a constructive discussion.
You are right in that its gone a bit far and I will apologize to everyone who has sat through this on my part.
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How about everyone chill out and when GenCon comes about we all go have a few brewskis? If you can disagree with someone but can't drink a beer with 'em, then you have no business disagreeing I say!
Anyway, I SCOFF at the Midwest being the prime of all RPG play. Let me invite y'all down below the Mason-Dixon. Take your shoes off, have a glass of the sweetest of teas (the way God intended), and come and play some good ol' games.
/13 retired players by the end of July.
//And that's just in Georgia (metro Atlanta what's up)!
///Bring it corn country!
////I love Iowa BTW. I would totally move there if I had the opportunity to.
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Hey now .. we have cows too!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
and umm .. lots of openings everywhere around here hehe
See ya in August -- bring me a gallon of tea wouldya???
Not as many cows as there are corn and soybean fields! I was in the Quad Cities and drove to Dubuque every other week! I know what's up, I think...
I look forward to it! But I must say, m'lady, you deserve much finer than the piddle wash I can just bring along with me. I will surely make you a fresh batch of the One True Southern God's Finest™ while at GenCon. Count on it!
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Hey now .. we have cows too!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
and umm .. lots of openings everywhere around here hehe
See ya in August -- bring me a gallon of tea wouldya???
Not as many cows as there are corn and soybean fields! I was in the Quad Cities and drove to Dubuque every other week! I know what's up, I think...
I look forward to it! But I must say, m'lady, you deserve much finer than the piddle wash I can just bring along with me. I will surely make you a fresh batch of the One True Southern God's Finest™ while at GenCon. Count on it!
Score!!!!!!!!!
I'll be in the pfs room ;) or Scotty's on Wednesday lol.
It is a bit derogatory. It perfectly describes how you've been acting. But it's a more polite option of what I orginally wanted to say.
If you want to keep tossing around insults, send me a personal email. Otherwise, just knock it off, you're not impressing anyone.
And why that isn't happening has been explained repeatedly in this thread. You just refuse to read/listen.
Which reasoning? the one where Eric Mona said he agrees the notion that more high level play does/will soon need to be supported with more play options?
Or the one where he said they know the play database is really not very accurate?
Oh I don't think I am the one not listening.
I did not come back after Eric pretty much "ruled" that they'd heard the request and this would be looked into more. I am not the one that put in more posts arguing against it just because I did not like it. I just responded to a number of those messages.
Regardless, favor/approval from you or the other few that want to "get me" is not something I am going to lose a great deal of sleep over. I've apologized for coming off as more aggressive than I intend - more than once. I'm done with that now. Move it along in a constructive manner or let it go.
I removed a post. Knock it off.