I know what people mean about not wanting random packs. Random packs would be fine for others if there was only some way I could pick and choose which miniatures in the set I want. Sadly I don't have that as an option. Instead if I want a particular miniature I have no choice but to purchase random packs until I find it, if ever.
The thing I enjoyed about random packs was effectively having the cost of a collection of commons and uncommons effectively subsidized by people chasing rares. However, I'd be happy paying a little more for a better distribution. Remember, however, if Paizo went down that road, it would pretty much mean the end of the more obscure minis (which I am fine with).
Just to add my point of view, and I am still curious to hear others opinions. For me I want random packs so we get the 60 or so minis a set. 2 minis a month, or so, I can buy and paint. I want the larger range of minis that a random set would provide. And I would love to see a skirmish style game to go with them, but that is a whole different discussion. :)
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So you want 24 minis a year (or so) that cost about $5 a piece?
Yes. If they are ones I would actually use.
24 good minis, that only cost you $120 is way better than 240 bad minis + 24 good minis that cost you a $250.
What if the distribution of minis was done better? So that you don't have as many crap minis. Would you spend $250 for 120 bad minis (or at least minis you wouldn't use) and 144 good minis?
Don't get me sucked into this ;)
I'm a gluttonous consumer, and I am also capable of rationalizing (despite many studies to the contrary) that something better is still better, even if it isn't ideal.
I want more control over what I get for my purchase. I hate the random minis because it was always a crap-shoot. I ended up buying the ones I wanted on the internet as re-sale specifically so that I could get them, and it was always less convenient than just getting what I wanted in the first place.
I don't want to be in the position of collecting "rare" minis that only truly benefit the resellers. I would rather hand my money to Paizo for what I want than to some dude who makes his business up out of buying 80 cases and then picking out the rare ones and charging a ridiculous mark-up. I don't have any of those in my collection because I refuse to pay $30 bucks for a single miniature - it's ridiculous. Just make what we bloody well want instead of telling us what you think we should want.
If they put forth the proposal for miniatures and then made what the demand actually was, I would figure we would all benefit.
Sooner or later we will get the 3d printers working with colour and then everyone will be happy, but until then, all we can do is vote with our dollars. And my vote is - no random or I won't buy it.
I might point out that you can purchase individual miniatures on this very site. So if you are interesting in giving Paizo money directly, well you don't get much more direct than that.
I might point out that you can purchase individual miniatures on this very site. So if you are interesting in giving Paizo money directly, well you don't get much more direct than that.Pre-painted individual miniatures?
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So you want 24 minis a year (or so) that cost about $5 a piece?
Yes. If they are ones I would actually use.
24 good minis, that only cost you $120 is way better than 240 bad minis + 24 good minis that cost you a $250.
I have 2012 prepainted wotc minis (924 unique sculpts) I have used over half of them in pathfinder society games.
That being said, I have over 200 sculpts of humans/elves/dwarves, and don't want any more other than the iconics, so these would all be 'bad minis' in my eyes... is that what you were meaning as well?
I bet if you asked wizards why they never made a flumph mini they'll say 'because it's a bad mini' but look at how a fan uprising of flumph support caused a awesome paizo book like misfits redeemed.
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So you want 24 minis a year (or so) that cost about $5 a piece?No random minis!!!
Paziocon went into the random business once before. They have since reduced those packs to less than a third of the original price. The Heroes Horde deck and the Relics of War deck.
Hope they have learned from it that random items don't work well.
If I get the ones I want instead of a few I want and a bunch if ones I don't then yes.
You mentioned $5 a mini.
They would have to be closer to $3 or $4 a mini rarely $5. If they were five I would just go with reaper. Which I currently am supporting that line very heavily right now and still probably would with a plastic supplementing.
Or each line would have there place. Use the reaper ones at home on my sultan and the plastic for travel type games.
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Right hereI might point out that you can purchase individual miniatures on this very site. So if you are interesting in giving Paizo money directly, well you don't get much more direct than that.Pre-painted individual miniatures?
The price on those is exactly the reason it shouldn't be random. Your going to exclude people getting some of those.
I do like secondary markets and have enjoyed eBay supplementing my income nicely but doesn't make me appreciate the price of some of those minis as a collector.
Right hereI might point out that you can purchase individual miniatures on this very site. So if you are interesting in giving Paizo money directly, well you don't get much more direct than that.Pre-painted individual miniatures?The price on those is exactly the reason it shouldn't be random. Your going to exclude people getting some of those.
I do like secondary markets and have enjoyed eBay supplementing my income nicely but doesn't make me appreciate the price of some of those minis as a collector.
The thing everyone forgets is that secondary market drives sales of the minis in the first place. WotC (or Paizo in the future) is never going to complain that someone bought 80 cases of minis so that they can sell them on the secondary market.
Something else to think of next time you are in your game store, find the spot on the wall where you can put the individual minis, and compare that to how much space a CCM game takes up (not counting individuals for resale). The moment you make more then a couple SKU's, the minis will not get carried at a bookstore or a Target or Walmart.
Now I am all for visible set boxes, a box of goblins for example, or a Gargantuan Green Dragon.:)
I will be happy to have whatever Paizo and Whizkids decide to do, but honestly I expect random sets. There just seems to be a larger group to sell to with that in mind.
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The thing everyone forgets is that secondary market drives sales of the minis in the first place. WotC (or Paizo in the future) is never going to complain that someone bought 80 cases of minis so that they can sell them on the secondary market.
Something else to think of next time you are in your game store, find the spot on the wall where you can put the individual minis, and compare that to how much space a CCM game takes up (not counting individuals for resale). The moment you make more then a couple SKU's, the minis will not get carried at a bookstore or a Target or Walmart.
Now I am all for visible set boxes, a box of goblins for example, or a Gargantuan Green Dragon.:)
I will be happy to have whatever Paizo and Whizkids decide to do, but honestly I expect random sets. There just seems to be a larger group to sell to with that in mind.
Just curious why it would be a larger market?
Is it because you think they would be in target or wallmart? More SKU's just would mean maybe they won't carry all the packs but just the newer packs if they carry them at all. Which is pretty normal for a lot of game stores anyways.
The thing everyone forgets is that secondary market drives sales of the minis in the first place. WotC (or Paizo in the future) is never going to complain that someone bought 80 cases of minis so that they can sell them on the secondary market.
Something else to think of next time you are in your game store, find the spot on the wall where you can put the individual minis, and compare that to how much space a CCM game takes up (not counting individuals for resale). The moment you make more then a couple SKU's, the minis will not get carried at a bookstore or a Target or Walmart.
Now I am all for visible set boxes, a box of goblins for example, or a Gargantuan Green Dragon.:)
I will be happy to have whatever Paizo and Whizkids decide to do, but honestly I expect random sets. There just seems to be a larger group to sell to with that in mind.
Just curious why it would be a larger market?
Is it because you think they would be in target or wallmart? More SKU's just would mean maybe they won't carry all the packs but just the newer packs if they carry them at all. Which is pretty normal for a lot of game stores anyways.
Yea the lack of presence in Target, B&N, etc. is what I was refering to. Maybe less visibility would have been a better way to put it?
The price on those is exactly the reason it shouldn't be random. Your going to exclude people getting some of those.
Ultimately, you're going to exclude someone, period. It should be a concern that you're not excluding the larger groups, but you're never going to get complete inclusion.
Is it because you think they would be in target or wallmart? More SKU's just would mean maybe they won't carry all the packs but just the newer packs if they carry them at all. Which is pretty normal for a lot of game stores anyways.
That they wouldn't be carrying ALL of the SKU's is yet another reason why such a line would be a poor seller.
If a particular SKU isn't selling well, it's not going to be reproduced. If it isn't reproduced, the product line is now smaller, and suffers overall, because new customers see holes in the line, and decide not to buy ANY of the line.
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The price on those is exactly the reason it shouldn't be random. Your going to exclude people getting some of those.Ultimately, you're going to exclude someone, period. It should be a concern that you're not excluding the larger groups, but you're never going to get complete inclusion.
I believe that I am worried aout excluding the larger group. Not many people would fork out $20 for a miniature as a lot of those DnD figures are now or more. Just the hard core collectors.
I believe that I am worried aout excluding the larger group. Not many people would fork out $20 for a miniature as a lot of those DnD figures are now or more. Just the hard core collectors.The price on those is exactly the reason it shouldn't be random. Your going to exclude people getting some of those.Ultimately, you're going to exclude someone, period. It should be a concern that you're not excluding the larger groups, but you're never going to get complete inclusion.
On the other hand, if that method wasn't used it may have been that those miniatures would never have been made in the first place.
Since we can't afford to buy them on the secondary market and are not lucky enough to get a booster with them in it, are we willing to stop them from being produced in the first place so that those that are, don't also get them? Some weird kind of "equality" idea going on?
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I believe that I am worried aout excluding the larger group. Not many people would fork out $20 for a miniature as a lot of those DnD figures are now or more. Just the hard core collectors.The price on those is exactly the reason it shouldn't be random. Your going to exclude people getting some of those.Ultimately, you're going to exclude someone, period. It should be a concern that you're not excluding the larger groups, but you're never going to get complete inclusion.On the other hand, if that method wasn't used it may have been that those miniatures would never have been made in the first place.
Since we can't afford to buy them on the secondary market and are not lucky enough to get a booster with them in it, are we willing to stop them from being produced in the first place so that those that are, don't also get them? Some weird kind of "equality" idea going on?
I think non random would sell fine like reaper models are selling fine.
That's my point. WoC just did some weird marketing. In fact when their skirmish game went to 2 version is when I started getting interested. Then they dropped it.
In fact if it sells good enough for a line to start but it's random, me personally well just stick with reaper only instead of both.
I think non random would sell fine like reaper models are selling fine.
And yet Reaper isn't producing a wide variety of pre-painted miniatures. While I'm sure the ones they produce are selling great, I'd be surprised if some of their more unusual designs from the metal miniatures ever make it to the plastic version.
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I think non random would sell fine like reaper models are selling fine.And yet Reaper isn't producing a wide variety of pre-painted miniatures. While I'm sure the ones they produce are selling great, I'd be surprised if some of their more unusual designs from the metal miniatures ever make it to the plastic version.
They will be smart and not do random! ;-)
Where I can see you just don't want random, period. I will have to agree with pres man and Brian that if Paizo/WizKids decide to go with a larger amount of minis, it is probably going to be random.
As it has already been said, visible minis just don't sell as well. Not when you are talking selling large amounts of minis, like sets.
And to be honest, it is something I'd like to see again, myself. Not only would I want to see a large mini line (sets), but I would like to see if they would produce a skirmish game along with it.
I believe that I am worried aout excluding the larger group. Not many people would fork out $20 for a miniature as a lot of those DnD figures are now or more. Just the hard core collectors.The price on those is exactly the reason it shouldn't be random. Your going to exclude people getting some of those.Ultimately, you're going to exclude someone, period. It should be a concern that you're not excluding the larger groups, but you're never going to get complete inclusion.
I think the bigger concern here is how you do rarity. In another discussion I had recently someone brought up the stirge. A fairly common monster that I wouldn't have minded having 8 or more of. But for some reason in the DDM version it was an uncommon, which meant that you got about 2 a case. Which shot the price on the secondary market through the roof.
I think non random would sell fine like reaper models are selling fine.
Most in the business would disagree with you. I know that Lisa Stevens has already made public comments to that effect.
Reaper may be doing a satisfactory (to them) business in selling pre-painted plastic minis, but I'm going to go out on a limb and say that they never have, and never will, sell in the numbers that DDM sold in.
That's my point. WoC just did some weird marketing. In fact when their skirmish game went to 2 version is when I started getting interested. Then they dropped it.
Because they killed the usability of earlier figures in sanctioned games, and lost a lot of their customer base. In an effort to stanch the wound, they started experimenting with the packaging, because a vocal, but small minority of customers were complaining about random blind packs.
The subsequent marketing decisions only served to further kill the line.
I'm relatively dense about such things, but isn't the 'random' option going to keep the non-random crowd happy anyway? Presumably there are many sites which buy cases and cases of minis, open them all and sell the rares at high prices, the uncommons at slightly lower prices and the commons at dirt cheap prices. Don't the fans of non-random minis get what they need? Sure the single super-rare figure might be more than they're willing to pay but they're still going to have a huge bunch of selectable minis from the common/uncommon varieties - probably more choice than if they 'get their way' and the producer goes with non-randoms. I just dont see who loses out with the random option (though that's my preferred option, and it's often the case that one's own preference seems 'obvious'..).
I also asked this earlier and don't think anyone answered:
When people discuss rare/uncommon/common distributions they often suggest that orcs/goblins and so forth should be common and named-NPC figures or big-boss types should be rare. It seems to me that this model won't result in the hoped for increase in sales, since the unique monsters are less necessary and therefore less desirable and easier to do without. Has anyone who knows about such things heard any discussion about this? Maybe I'm inventing a problem that doesnt exist, but it seems to me that there is a portion of the collector market who are still looking at functionality of the rares, not just wanting them for the sake they are rare - if the rares aren't very important to running an RPG then this group of collectors may be less inclined to support the market in the necessary way.
I think the bigger concern here is how you do rarity. In another discussion I had recently someone brought up the stirge. A fairly common monster that I wouldn't have minded having 8 or more of. But for some reason in the DDM version it was an uncommon, which meant that you got about 2 a case. Which shot the price on the secondary market through the roof.
And, as much as I loved the skirmish game, and think that it was a necessary companion to the minis (increasing the customer base), I think that it had a lot to do with screwy rarities.
Specifically, if they stat the critter for the minis game, and make it mechanically awesome AND common, then they throw off the skirmish balance.
It's a very fine line to walk, and I think they did a fair job for the most part - unfortunately, there were issues like you illustrate with stirges.
You also run the risk of low supply/high demand when it's an iconic cool monster (say, the illithid) - if the skirmish stats make it awesome, you've got both groups chasing it. Good for sales, but potentially frustrating for some buyers who may want a few.
I'm relatively dense about such things, but isn't the 'random' option going to keep the non-random crowd happy anyway? Presumably there are many sites which buy cases and cases of minis, open them all and sell the rares at high prices, the uncommons at slightly lower prices and the commons at dirt cheap prices. Don't the fans of non-random minis get what they need? Sure the single super-rare figure might be more than they're willing to pay but they're still going to have a huge bunch of selectable minis from the common/uncommon varieties - probably more choice than if they 'get their way' and the producer goes with non-randoms. I just dont see who loses out with the random option (though that's my preferred option, and it's often the case that one's own preference seems 'obvious'..).
I wholeheartedly agree with you.
The general complaint seems to be that the chase rares cost more than an unpainted metal mini, and that those who don't want to buy blind packs are somehow getting shafted when they go to buy one of those rares.
Ironically, it seems that the price of the "average" unpainted metal mini is held up as an example of a "shall not exceed" price, but that same price is ridiculously high when discussing a monster that one would want several of.
I also asked this earlier and don't think anyone answered:
When people discuss rare/uncommon/common distributions they often suggest that orcs/goblins and so forth should be common and named-NPC figures or big-boss types should be rare. It seems to me that this model won't result in the hoped for increase in sales, since the unique monsters are less necessary and therefore less desirable and easier to do without. Has anyone who knows about such things heard any discussion about this? Maybe I'm inventing a problem that doesnt exist, but it seems to me that there is a portion of the collector market who are still looking at functionality of the rares, not just wanting them for the sake they are rare - if the rares aren't very important to running an RPG then this group of collectors may be less inclined to support the market in the necessary way.
I don't think you're inventing anything at all.
For me personally, I think a great example of your hypothesis was the last set of DDM, "Lords of Madness".
While I liked the skirmish game and played it, my primary purchasing was always due to RPG functionality.
"Lords of Madness" really didn't contain that critical mass of content for me, and as such, I just bought a few singles of the stuff I really wanted, instead of buying a case (or multiple cases).
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Hi to the folks at Pazio, I am in favor of the new prepainted line of minitures. I would like you to do all of the Iconics and sell them as single blister packs. I don;t like buying box sets of random minis.
Would you also consider doing monters from the two bestaries?
Do you smell smoke? thats mony burning a whole in my pocket waiting to buy prepainted minis.
new prepainted line of minitures.
As mentioned, there is no "new line" of minis.
This is a one-off product, with no formal/official plans for more.
new prepainted line of minitures.As mentioned, there is no "new line" of minis.
This is a one-off product, with no formal/official plans for more.
but if lots of people but it...
but if lots of people but it...
Oh, I sincerely hope the sales of this are astronomical and they make more minis.
That said, I don't think that sales of minis representing the Pathfinder iconics are going to be entirely indicative of future sales of general minis.
I think a lot of people are buying these because of the fact that they are the iconics, not just that they're cool minis.
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I think non random would sell fine like reaper models are selling fine.Most in the business would disagree with you. I know that Lisa Stevens has already made public comments to that effect.
Reaper may be doing a satisfactory (to them) business in selling pre-painted plastic minis, but I'm going to go out on a limb and say that they never have, and never will, sell in the numbers that DDM sold in.
That's my point. WoC just did some weird marketing. In fact when their skirmish game went to 2 version is when I started getting interested. Then they dropped it.Because they killed the usability of earlier figures in sanctioned games, and lost a lot of their customer base. In an effort to stanch the wound, they started experimenting with the packaging, because a vocal, but small minority of customers were complaining about random blind packs.
The subsequent marketing decisions only served to further kill the line.
The line WoC was selling was some random visible miniatures. Not specific characters iconics that are really Pathfinders visible name sake.
As to the reaper line I'm not talking pre painted I'm talking about the Pathfinder line they have. I can paint fine and don't need pre painted. Just it's is nice as I mentioned to have figures your concerned about getting damaged and others that are not so big of deal (plastic).
The Pathfinder line by reaper is obviously doing well. They were releasing one or two a month now it's up to four or more.
I have not seen Lisa state that anywhere on the forum and if she did I missed it. I also wasn't at her table at Paziocon so she could of said that their or anywhere else in public.
There is a saying though unless it's written down it never happened.
If it does (if a line goes at all) go random, I'll just continue picking up only the reaper line and pass on a random line.
Just my opinion and choice. Could be in the minority but don't think so from reading the forums. It's only been the same people saying it would have to be a random line.
Sean
The line WoC was selling was some random visible miniatures. Not specific characters iconics that are really Pathfinders visible name sake.
Right. So you can't compare the sales of the two.
As to the reaper line I'm not talking pre painted I'm talking about the Pathfinder line they have. I can paint fine and don't need pre painted. Just it's is nice as I mentioned to have figures your concerned about getting damaged and others that are not so big of deal (plastic).
Again, you can't compare the sales of these two. Pre-painted plastics with unpainted metals are two totally seperate products. I'm sure there is buyer overlap, but you can't judge the sales of one by the sales of the other. Over my life as a gamer, I've spent at least a couple thousand dollars on DDM. I've spent under $200 on metal minis.
The Pathfinder line by reaper is obviously doing well. They were releasing one or two a month now it's up to four or more.
See above.
I have not seen Lisa state that anywhere on the forum and if she did I missed it. I also wasn't at her table at Paziocon so she could of said that their or anywhere else in public.
There is a saying though unless it's written down it never happened.
Just my opinion and choice. Could be in the minority but don't think...
If you weren't in the minority, I suspect that Reaper's pre-painted plastics line would be selling a lot more, and would have a significantly larger line-up.
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Haven't you been comparing the WoC line to it?....not really caring or have the need to get the quote from above ...because I could really care less. Not gonna convince you one way or another and don't feel the need to since it is just my opinion.
THe metal products and the plastic products are completely different if that is all you compare them as. But when you look at people wanting to get specific characters / iconic's you can compare them.
So she has said it. Glad you have the time to look that up. Well if that is the case I might get a booster or two but that would be all. I'll just stick with the Reaper line. I think she is making a mistake. Like they did with the Gamemastery cards which now sell a $1 a pack from $3.49 a pack. Which means they are just trying to get rid of them now.
Nice way of quoting only part of what I said...
But like I said before reapers pre-painted line would do better if it was NOT just random monsters that are duplicate molds of metal minis they have had out for some time.
THe characters and iconic's in the Adventure Paths would do very well if they are not random but if you have to buy a bunch of boosters to get the characters, NPC's, or iconic's of an adventure path, they wont take off like they could.
Again count the people for and against in the forum thread and then count how many are duplicate posts that are against and then count the duplicate posts that are for. So at least in this thread I am not in the minority.
That is all.
I guess I'm just in the group that doesn't quite understand the thinking that if random miniatures are released, that someone would refuse purchase them when they are sold individually on sites such as this very one at prices that would be acceptable for non-random miniatures. I can understand not being interested in purchasing large number of random boosters* or purchasing ultra-expensive ultra-rare singles. But to just refuse to purchase individual miniatures that you would otherwise have been interested in, based on type and price, merely because you dislike that it had come from a random booster just boggles my mind.
*I have rarely purchased them preferring to purchase singles on the secondary market, though if a set was almost entire composed of "cool" minis I did buy some, my personal favorites were the Wardrums set.
Nice way of quoting only part of what I said...
I only quoted the part I cared to respond to. Nice way of being dismissive of my earlier post since I didn't immediately provide a link to the statement I referenced, and then continuing to dismiss it once I provide the link.
Believe whatever you want, but ultimately, the industry has proven your beliefs and opinions wrong. The only way we're going to see large production run of pre-painted plastic minis for a low (under $2/mini) cost-per-mini and a wide selection is if they come in random blind packs.
I guess I'm just in the group that doesn't quite understand the thinking that if random miniatures are released, that someone would refuse purchase them when they are sold individually on sites such as this very one at prices that would be acceptable for non-random miniatures. I can understand not being interested in purchasing large number of random boosters* or purchasing ultra-expensive ultra-rare singles. But to just refuse to purchase individual miniatures that you would otherwise have been interested in, based on type and price, merely because you dislike that it had come from a random booster just boggles my mind.
You and me both.
Though, I have seen the "unfair" complaint trotted out a few times, in regards to the ultra-expensive ultra-rare singles.
Reaper Miniatures
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I suspect that Reaper's pre-painted plastics line would be selling a lot more, and would have a significantly larger line-up.
There's a whole lot of behind the scenes in the business that is influencing the growth of our Plastics. And believe it or not, sales data is NOT the #1 factor in our decisions regarding that product. Sales are better than anticipated - and continue to grow.
THe metal products and the plastic products are completely different if that is all you compare them as.
Nevertheless, Watching this discussion I find it fascinating that both you Mr. Harris and you Thenorthman although seemingly opposite in viewpoint, are both fairly accurate and astute. The issue is a lot more complex than the simple arguments 90% of forum posters use to debate this topic - here, on enworld, wotc pages, or our own forums. You both are aware of and articulating well the facets of the issue you champion - and it's sad to me that even though you both disagree, neither of you are wrong.
From my perspective, anyway.
Though, I have seen the "unfair" complaint trotted out a few times, in regards to the ultra-expensive ultra-rare singles.
Yeah, I've never understood the mentally that someone would rather that no one be allowed to have something if it means that they cannot have it. I don't understand how if you are not being harmed, why should what somebody else is getting bother you. It is not like if they didn't have the ultra-rares that those miniatures would become commons. More likely they would have just not been produced in the first place.
There's a whole lot of behind the scenes in the business that is influencing the growth of our Plastics. And believe it or not, sales data is NOT the #1 factor in our decisions regarding that product. Sales are better than anticipated - and continue to grow.
I don't mean to insinuate that either your plastics or metals sales are poor, or that they're not selling well - only that they're not selling in a volume or method that allows us to get those minis for a price similar to the pricing when purchasing DDM in random boosters.
I don't want to buy random minis. I wish that there were some way that huge selection available under DDM would have been available, at those prices ($1.87/mini in medium/large packs, $2.74/mini in huge packs) and been able to pick and choose.
If there were any way this was viable, I'd be there buying.
But, if random/blind is the only way to go, well, I'd rather have it than nothing.
My biggest reason for wanting random mini sets is so we get things like the Aeons, Proteans, etc. Unfortunately for Reaper's metal line is there are only so many monsters they can do in a year and Paizo creates way more monsters then that.
One other thought is why can't the rares be named creatures and characters only? For example, you could do a named large red dragon in set 1, that is powered as a rare in any miniature game that gets created. Then for say set 3 you make the unnamed large red dragon that is an uncommon.
I have seen a lot of people saying we don't want random the way DDM did it, but wouldn't we expect Paizo to do it differently?
One other thought is why can't the rares be named creatures and characters only? For example, you could do a named large red dragon in set 1, that is powered as a rare in any miniature game that gets created. Then for say set 3 you make the unnamed large red dragon that is an uncommon.
Then when set 4 rolls around, and has a named large blue dragon as a rare, why wouldn't I just wait for the inevitable uncommon large blue dragon down the road?
Similar to how Paizo has stated why they won't make a habit of hardbound reprints of APs.
Chase rares are a necessary evil.
I have seen a lot of people saying we don't want random the way DDM did it, but wouldn't we expect Paizo to do it differently?
Not really. Regardless of how WotC bungled the "end" of DDM, they didn't do a bad job of the overall run.
Not really. Regardless of how WotC bungled the "end" of DDM, they didn't do a bad job of the overall run.
I find it strange for people to say the DDM were a failure, despite having 5 years and 17 really good sets and then falling the last year or two.
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My biggest reason for wanting random mini sets is so we get things like the Aeons, Proteans, etc. Unfortunately for Reaper's metal line is there are only so many monsters they can do in a year and Paizo creates way more monsters then that.
One other thought is why can't the rares be named creatures and characters only? For example, you could do a named large red dragon in set 1, that is powered as a rare in any miniature game that gets created. Then for say set 3 you make the unnamed large red dragon that is an uncommon.
I have seen a lot of people saying we don't want random the way DDM did it, but wouldn't we expect Paizo to do it differently?
That could work. Just don't want the iconics and main npcs as random.
For example, you could do a named large red dragon in set 1, that is powered as a rare in any miniature game that gets created. Then for say set 3 you make the unnamed large red dragon that is an uncommon.
That sort of thing can make people angry. They want a big dragon, buy the rare one for big money, and then follows a cheap one.
(whatever)
Apropos of nothing: Could you two decide how to spell that name? :P
they're not selling in a volume or method that allows us to get those minis for a price similar to the pricing when purchasing DDM in random boosters.
Do you know what else isn't being sold for a price similar to those DDM figures? Those DDM figures.
They kept making the stuff more expensive while simultaneously decreasing product quality. And then they changed their scheme, re-used sculpts (but with paint schemes that were worse than before) for non-random sets that were even more expensive than before.
And then they shitcanned the whole thing.
Using the prices for failed/discontinued product lines from years ago as a benchmark for current products won't really yield good prices for comparison.
Not knowing the Business, what would be the impact of Random without the Rarity? In other words Blind Random packs with all minis with equal production count.
Well, for one, significantly less reason to buy as many packs. Given that the desire for the rares drove sales up, this allowed them to produce minis that they wouldn't have otherwise produced.
Additionally, by eliminating rarities, you now have less of an abundance of those former commons (the orc, goblins, skeletons, etc.) that you'd want several of and more of an abundance of critters that would typically be a loner.
One other thought is why can't the rares be named creatures and characters only? For example, you could do a named large red dragon in set 1, that is powered as a rare in any miniature game that gets created. Then for say set 3 you make the unnamed large red dragon that is an uncommon.Then when set 4 rolls around, and has a named large blue dragon as a rare, why wouldn't I just wait for the inevitable uncommon large blue dragon down the road?
Similar to how Paizo has stated why they won't make a habit of hardbound reprints of APs.
Chase rares are a necessary evil.
I have seen a lot of people saying we don't want random the way DDM did it, but wouldn't we expect Paizo to do it differently?Not really. Regardless of how WotC bungled the "end" of DDM, they didn't do a bad job of the overall run.
But the 1st one is still the chase mini for skirmish.
Do you know what else isn't being sold for a price similar to those DDM figures? Those DDM figures.
They kept making the stuff more expensive while simultaneously decreasing product quality. And then they changed their scheme, re-used sculpts (but with paint schemes that were worse than before) for non-random sets that were even more expensive than before.
And then they s+@*canned the whole thing.
Most of those were responses to decreasing sales due to bungling the marketing of the line (the DDM1/DDM2 rules change due to the 3.5/4E conversion, the attempt to cater to the minority who clamored for non-random packs, etc.) - Slippery slope and all.
Your comment about non-random sets that were even more expensive than before is the perfect example of what we're talking about.
People complain about random minis sucking - $14.99 for 8, remember - with sub-complaints about having to spend that much for "maybe one mini I'd use" so they release non-random minis - $10.95 for 3 - and repaints of earlier sculpts at that.
But, hey, at least we got DDM Burt Reynolds as a repaint of the Aberrations Cleric of St. Cuthbert.
Using the prices for failed/discontinued product lines from years ago as a benchmark for current products won't really yield good prices for comparison.
Ultimately, those are the only figures (HAR HAR GET IT?) we have, and they're not all that old.
Reaper's mini pricing hasn't drastically increased in the last few years, so I think it's fair to use the old pricing information as a comparative.
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Not knowing the Business, what would be the impact of Random without the Rarity? In other words Blind Random packs with all minis with equal production count.Well, for one, significantly less reason to buy as many packs. Given that the desire for the rares drove sales up, this allowed them to produce minis that they wouldn't have otherwise produced.
Additionally, by eliminating rarities, you now have less of an abundance of those former commons (the orc, goblins, skeletons, etc.) that you'd want several of and more of an abundance of critters that would typically be a loner.
See I don't know who the main buyer was for these? was it the person trying to buy a bunch of random bind packs to get the minis he needed for his tabletop game who will continue to buy random packs until he has all he needs or the rare chaser?
The way I see it a Non rare blind pack would allow a decent production amount somewhere, higher then non random packs but less the Blind packs with rares.
I just want Minis for my game and most players I know want the same the care less about chasing that rare.
I know non random packs just won't have the production I need them at, Rarity pisses off players because those rares sometimes are important needed minis.
So I see a good medium as Non rarity Blind Packs.
Edit: and there can still can be a secondary market, but instead of the prices being based on rarity they will be based on popularity and need of the mini which should hold the price down a bit compared to being based on rarity.
See I don't know who the main buyer was for these? was it the person trying to buy a bunch of random bind packs to get the minis he needed for his tabletop game who will continue to buy random packs until he has all he needs or the rare chaser?
The way I see it a Non rare blind pack would allow a decent production amount somewhere, higher then non random packs but less the Blind packs with rares.
I just want Minis for my game and most players I know want the same the care less about chasing that rare.
I know non random packs just won't have the production I need them at, Rarity pisses off players because those rares sometimes are important needed minis.
So I see a good medium as Non rarity Blind Packs.
Edit: and there can still can be a secondary market, but instead of the prices being based on rarity they will be based on popularity and need of the mini which should hold the price down a bit compared to being based on rarity.
With no rarity scheme, you end up with as many beholders in existence as ogres. Since beholders are generally solo encounters there is a lot more supply then demand and they end up costing $5-$10 on the secondary market. But DMs need a lot of ogres for ogre encounters making the demand much greater than supply and driving up the secondary market price to $15-$20 per ogre. That's not a good thing for DMs.