[SGG] Ultimate Options: New Magus Arcana


Product Discussion

Scarab Sages

Garion. Rand al’Thor. Elric of Melniboné. Even Gandalf, the prototypical adventuring mage, carried the sword Glamdring to good effect. Throughout fantasy, the warrior mage, able to swing swords and cast spells with equal skill, is one of the genre’s most common tropes—but often not one that’s easy to implement. But with the advent of the magus class in Ultimate Magic, the concept is now easily created within the Pathfinder roleplaying game.
Ultimate Options: New Magus Arcana presents over 30 new abilities for the magus. With this broad set of new material magi can fight with 2-handed weapons, go sword-and-board with a shield, wield two weapons and still cast spells, or even become a spontaneous spellcaster similar to a sorcerer.

Ultimate Options; New Magus Arcana includes 30 new magus arcana and four sets of alternate abilities designed to work with the new batch of magus arcana options. A list of the options (and one preview) is below.

Magus Arcana
Arcane Critical
Arcane Focus
Critical Spell
Elemental Assault
Enduring Arcana
Enduring Warding
Enruned Dagger
Enruned Great Weapon
Enruned Shield (Su): The magus may expend a point from his arcane pool to scribe a rune of power on a shield with which the magus is proficient. While the rune is in place, the magus can use the hand holding that shield to complete somatic components of magus spells he casts, and is considered to have that hand free for purposes of spell combat. The rune lasts 10 minutes per level.
Force Magic Device
Greater Enduring Arcana
Greater Enduring Warding
Greater Enrune Dagger
Greater Enrune Great Weapon
Greater Enrune Shield
Harmonic Blending
Heroic Assault
Imbue Spell
Invisible Assault
Jinx Blending
Mounted Assault
Piercing Strike
Protected Assault
Resistant Assault
Split Arcana
Staff Mastery
Versatile Combatant
Wand Lord
Warding
Weapon Diligence

Advanced Archetypes
With the significant expansion of what magus arcana are available, new alternate builds for the magus become practical. Below are several archetypes that provide alternate powers that work particularly well with one or more of the new arcana defined above. A magus that selects one of these archetypes must take all its alternate powers in place of the normal magus abilities they replace. An archetype of this kind is selected at 1st level, and once that choice has been made it cannot be changed.

Arcana Lord
While most magi work to balance their skill with weapons, spells, and their arcane pool, some come from a tradition that emphasizes one of these skills over the others. Arcana lords are one such tradition, focusing on the one power truly unique to the magus — the arcane pool — and concentrating less about spell ability. T

Cabalist
A cabalist is a magus who gains his arcane powers as a result of inherent power, similar to a sorcerer, rather than through careful study.

Magavan
The magavan is a court magus, trained to operate within a high noble court (often as agent or advisor to an important lord). As a result he focuses more on social magic and divination spells than a typical magus.

Tovenaar
Tovenaar are mystic warriors who can combine magic and combat, but without depending on spells. Instead tovenaar gain a broad range of mystic powers they can use to empower themselves, hinder their foes, augment their allies, and divine the future.

7 pages
$2.99
Designed by Owen K.C. Stephens


Can't wait to give it a read through!


I will be looking at this as soon as I get home today. Cant wait.

Scarab Sages

Cheapy wrote:
Can't wait to give it a read through!
Kolokotroni wrote:
I will be looking at this as soon as I get home today. Cant wait.

As always, I look forward to your thoughts. :)


Owen K. C. Stephens wrote:
Cheapy wrote:
Can't wait to give it a read through!
Kolokotroni wrote:
I will be looking at this as soon as I get home today. Cant wait.
As always, I look forward to your thoughts. :)

man it sucks that work blocks dungeon a day. I REAAAALLY wanna see what the cabalist is like. I wholeheartedly prefer spontaneous to prepared casting. And that is what the cabalist sounds like. Now its time to start buttering up the dm to let me make the switch.

Scarab Sages

Kolokotroni wrote:
I REAAAALLY wanna see what the cabalist is like.

No need to wait! I did it as a preview here!


So... does the Tovenaar feel like a cousin to the Monk, or somewhat of a Hexblade, or...? I'm very interested but am trying to get a rough feel for what it will look like.

Scarab Sages

Tim4488 wrote:
So... does the Tovenaar feel like a cousin to the Monk, or somewhat of a Hexblade, or...? I'm very interested but am trying to get a rough feel for what it will look like.

Hard to say. Either kinda-like-a-hexblade, or an arcane, no-spell inquisitor.

In some ways, tovenaar-is-to-wizard as monk-is-to-cleric might make sense.


I don't get why the Cabalist got his name - do I assume right that it comes from the jewish mystic tradition of Kaballah which in contrast to the Cabalist here presented is based on extreme intensive studies on the Torah?


Ksorkrax wrote:
I don't get why the Cabalist got his name - do I assume right that it comes from the jewish mystic tradition of Kaballah which in contrast to the Cabalist here presented is based on extreme intensive studies on the Torah?

Cabal is derived from Kabbalah, but means "an occult doctrine or secret." Occult secret sounds about right to me.


ok so I finally got a chance to sit down and look at this. And there are definitely some fun goodies that I will be wanting to use for my magus in the kingmaker campaign I am playing in.

So thoughts and comments, I definately like how you are supporting the later base classes. Its always nice to see classes get fleshed out. And this is probably my favorite all time class now, so I am happy to see it getting the genius touch.

Arcane critical - more fodder for a crit specialist magus. I feel like high crit weapons are really the way to go with this class (though mine is using a longsword for thematic reasons).

Arcane Focus I like. Making up for the to hit penalty from spell combat is important for a 3/4 bab character. I was actually using touche from feats of combat, but this is certainly something that could help.

Elemental Assault - I couldnt find this spell in the APG, did you maybe mean elemental aura?

Enruned Dagger/Great Weapon/shield - this i will probably disallow at my table. An important balancing point (in my opinion) of the magus' spellcombat is the fact that he isnt using the best attack methods along side it. Allowing a way around that, even a costly one is not a good idea in my opinion. Particularly with the greater versions. Sure you spent 2 arcanas, but it then more or less nullifies an intentional restriction. I think that will quickly throw off the balance of the class.

Heroic Assault - I like this and the haste effect, it really lends itself to a magus getting buffed and ready for a fight quickly. One of the biggest problems with fighter mages in my experience has been that sure they are capable when they are buffed, but it takes a couple rounds to get there in most fights, at which point you've already missed half the fight.

Jinx blending is interesting. I was giving serious thought to the hexcrafter archetype and this goes well with it. There are a number of very useful spells on the witch list.

I like piercing strike, anything that helps blend the fighting and magic is a plus in my book.

Minor nitpick noticed a typo on page 4:
with themselves.
"A magus of 5th level or higher can use these
bonuses to add any of the following armor
properties: fortification (light, moderate of
heavy),"

Weapon diligence is an interesting option. Sort of a means to save a feat (with combat casting). Though I have a question, is the weapon a weapon type or a specific weapon? IE is it all longswords, or One longsword chosen when you take the arcana. If its just the one, without a method to refocus I think this arcana would have a problem in most games (unless you are bladebound of course)

Arcana Lord looks interesting, and in hind sight it makes sense now why you created so many spells as arcana types of arcana. The two could work fairly well together.

I really like the Cabalist, and I definitely want to use this for my magus. I have a question though, how should spell recall work with spontaneous casting? Is it just extra spell slots?

I do think that Bloodline Spells is a bit of a waste. By 19th level any spell in a bloodline that is worth it, you already have in your spells known list. I realize you dont want to give the spells earlier then greater spell access comes, but a 19th level character gaining 1st 2nd and 3rd spells known from a set list is almost meaningless. I mean are you really going to wait untill 19th level to get mage armor, or burning hands? If you cared you'd already have them. I think at the very least you should be able to choose different ones if you already know these spells.

In the end for me it really doesn't matter because campaigns in my group never get that high, so its kind of moot, but I think you should reconsider it.

Tovenaar - I really like the idea, but I just think in the end it doesn't work. You just don't get enough for what you are trading out. The inquisitions are interesting, but they are not powerful enough to account for 6 levels of casting and the spell recall/knowledge pool powers. I mean many of the inquisition powers are already swift actions, so how much are you really gaining by being able to use them in mystic combat? I think this is probably going to be relegated to the npc only category, as it is really suboptimal when compared to the any other magus (or most other classes really).

Overall there are a fair number of things I like and a few I don't. But anything that gives new options for my new favorite class is money well spent in my book.

Scarab Sages

Kolokotroni wrote:
So thoughts and comments, I definately like how you are supporting the later base classes. Its always nice to see classes get fleshed out. And this is probably my favorite all time class now, so I am happy to see it getting the genius touch.

Some of the feedback we got very early on was our customers wanted to see us support classes and options from the APG, so I assumed that applied to Ultimate Magic too. Glad to see I was right!

Kolokotroni wrote:
Elemental Assault - I couldnt find this spell in the APG, did you maybe mean elemental aura?

Yep! I'll get that fixed in errata.

Kolokotroni wrote:
Enruned Dagger/Great Weapon/shield - this i will probably disallow at my table. An important balancing point (in my opinion) of the magus' spellcombat is the fact that he isnt using the best attack methods along side it. Allowing a way around that, even a costly one is not a good idea in my opinion. Particularly with the greater versions. Sure you spent 2 arcanas, but it then more or less nullifies an intentional restriction. I think that will quickly throw off the balance of the class.

All I can say it that it didn't do so at my playtests. With 2-weapon fighting, the increased attack penalties and feat cost hurt the 3/4 BAB Magus so much I almost didn't include it because it's a sub-par choice. It went in purely for players who really want a 2-weapon warrior/wizard, and I saw no reason not to let them pick style over effectiveness.

With the shield, in addition to wanting both magus arcana, you have to be proficient with the shield, which takes a feat. And you still have ASF to deal with. 5% may not seem like much ASF, but that's 1 in 20 spells lost. Of course you can take Arcane Armor Training, but now the cost is 2 arcana and 2 feats, and you have to burn a swift action every round, and a magus has lots of better options for swift actions. Or you can take spell blending once and pick up the shield spell for more AC. Again, I almost excluded it as a sub-par choice.

That just leaves Enruned Great Weapon, which is clearly the best of the three options. It clearly gives you more damage, but in my playtests it never gave much more damage. This is in large part because a magus wants a high Int (for spells) and high Dex (because of light armor), and high Con (because he's in melee with a d8 hit points), and just can't afford to have an 18 Strength without becoming less effective elsewhere. If the magus can pull a 14 Strength (and not all can), the difference in average damage between a longsword and a greatsword is just 3.5 hp/swing. Power Attack can boost that, but with a 3/4 BAB, the magus won't hit as often as a barbarian when using PA.

When compared to a magus using a bastard sword with EWP to make it 1-handed when he needs to cast, EGW is a slightly better choice. And if you run into grapple-happy foes (where a bastard-sword magus can make 1-handed attack while grappled, and the greatsword-magus can't), they become much closer to par.

Kolokotroni wrote:
Minor nitpick noticed a typo on page 4:

Good catch! added to errata.

Kolokotroni wrote:
Weapon diligence is an interesting option. Sort of a means to save a feat (with combat casting). Though I have a question, is the weapon a weapon type or a specific weapon?

I meant one kind of weapon, like with Weapon Focus. That should be more clear. I'll add it to errata.

Kolokotroni wrote:
Arcana Lord looks interesting, and in hind sight it makes sense now why you created so many spells as arcana types of arcana. The two could work fairly well together.

Yeah, hasted assault lead to more assault types of arcana, and that lead to the arcane lord. I hadn't originally planned for alternate powers in this book, but some just seemed to work so well with the new arcana.

Kolokotroni wrote:
I really like the Cabalist, and I definitely want to use this for my magus. I have a question though, how should spell recall work with spontaneous casting? Is it just extra spell slots?

It should be, yes.

Kolokotroni wrote:
I think at the very least you should be able to choose different ones if you already know these spells.
Quote:

Yeah, that makes sense. Errata.

Kolokotroni wrote:
Tovenaar - I really like the idea, but I just think in the end it doesn't work. You just don't get enough for what you are trading out.

The interesting thing about tovenaar is that they don't suffer nearly as much multiple-stat-need syndrome. And with the number of inquisitins they get, they end up with a lot of abilities they can use 3/day even with a 10 Wisdom. A 2nd level tovenaar with anger, fervor, and imprisonment does pretty well for himself.

But if you think they need a boost, just have a tovenaar use Constitution instead of Wisdom for all inquisition calculations.

Hey, I like that idea. I msy make it official...

Overall there are a fair number of things I like and a few I don't. But anything that gives new options for my new favorite class is money well spent in my book.

Grand Lodge

Owen K. C. Stephens wrote:
Enruned Shield (Su): The magus may expend a point from his arcane pool to scribe a rune of power on a shield with which the magus is proficient. While the rune is in place, the magus can use the hand holding that shield to complete somatic components of magus spells he casts, and is considered to have that hand free for purposes of spell combat. The rune lasts 10 minutes per level.

By the rules though, spell failure rolls still need to be made. Also non-proficiency penalties would also apply. A single class magus is not proficient with shields unless the appropriate feat is taken.


LazarX wrote:
Owen K. C. Stephens wrote:
Enruned Shield (Su): The magus may expend a point from his arcane pool to scribe a rune of power on a shield with which the magus is proficient. While the rune is in place, the magus can use the hand holding that shield to complete somatic components of magus spells he casts, and is considered to have that hand free for purposes of spell combat. The rune lasts 10 minutes per level.
By the rules though, spell failure rolls still need to be made. Also non-proficiency penalties would also apply. A single class magus is not proficient with shields unless the appropriate feat is taken.

Yep, he mentioned that in the post above yours.

Scarab Sages

LazarX wrote:
By the rules though, spell failure rolls still need to be made. Also non-proficiency penalties would also apply. A single class magus is not proficient with shields unless the appropriate feat is taken.

The arcana specifies you can only use it on a shield with which the magus is proficient. You have to get proficiency prior to taking the arcana, or it's useless. Then you decide how to handle the (most likely) 5% ASF. You can suck it up (I have players happy to do this), get Arcane Armor Training, or get a mithral shield.


My turn! Ok, I lied. I don't have enough time to comment on everything right now. So I'll stick to the archetypes.

I really like the idea behind the Tovenaar. I don't recall the Inquisitions exactly, but this character looks like he could be a ton of fun. One question though: Is the "Take two domains" option only available at level one, at which point you can't take any more inquisitions *or* domains? Or do you get the new domains at the same level you'd get the inquisitions? Basically...can you mix or match?

Magavan seems like they could be interesting. Lorestrike seems a bit silly to me, so I'm glad the stipulation about failed saving throws is in there. It seems like you'd want to know that stuff *before* you smack someone.

Cabalist is pretty awesome.

Kolokotroni's assessment of the Arcana Lord is about the same as mine!

Scarab Sages

Cheapy wrote:
I really like the idea behind the Tovenaar. I don't recall the Inquisitions exactly, but this character looks like he could be a ton of fun. One question though: Is the "Take two domains" option only available at level one, at which point you can't take any more inquisitions *or* domains? Or do you get the new domains at the same level you'd get the inquisitions? Basically...can you mix or match?

You can mix and match.

Cheapy wrote:
Magavan seems like they could be interesting. Lorestrike seems a bit silly to me, so I'm glad the stipulation about failed saving throws is in there. It seems like you'd want to know that stuff *before* you smack someone.

That's going to depend a lot on the style of game and adventure. But it never hursts to be able to learn someone is thinking "Fools! If I hold you here for another minute, the Great Ritual will be complete!" or "Throg hope caravan guards not know throg hate fire."

Cheapy wrote:
Cabalist is pretty awesome.

Thanks! One of my playtesters flat will not play a prepare-in-advance spellcaster, so I'm always considering spontaneous versions of things.

Cheapy wrote:
Kolokotroni's assessment of the Arcana Lord is about the same as mine!

Cool!


Owen K. C. Stephens wrote:

All I can say it that it didn't do so at my playtests. With 2-weapon fighting, the increased attack penalties and feat cost hurt the 3/4 BAB Magus so much I almost didn't include it because it's a sub-par choice. It went in purely for players who really want a 2-weapon warrior/wizard, and I saw no reason not to let them pick style over effectiveness.

With the shield, in addition to wanting both magus arcana, you have to be proficient with the shield, which takes a feat. And you still have ASF to deal with. 5% may not seem like much ASF, but that's 1 in 20 spells lost. Of course you can take Arcane Armor Training, but now the cost is 2 arcana and 2 feats, and you have to burn a swift action every round, and a magus has lots of better options for swift actions. Or you can take spell blending once and pick up the shield spell for more AC. Again, I almost excluded it as a sub-par choice.

I think this is more my inner munchkin alarm jumping out at me. I dont think intentional limitations should ever be bypassable even if you have to sacrifice resources (feats/arcana). I think the 1handed restriction was put there specifically as a balancing agent, and to allow an end around is asking for trouble. It might come to nothing but I would be extremely cautious before allowing it.

Quote:

That just leaves Enruned Great Weapon, which is clearly the best of the three options. It clearly gives you more damage, but in my playtests it never gave much more damage. This is in large part because a magus wants a high Int (for spells) and high Dex (because of light armor), and high Con (because he's in melee with a d8 hit points), and just can't afford to have an 18 Strength without becoming less effective elsewhere. If the magus can pull a 14 Strength (and not all can), the difference in average damage between a longsword and a greatsword is just 3.5 hp/swing. Power Attack can boost that, but with a 3/4 BAB, the magus won't hit as often as a barbarian when using PA.

Actually my current magus is strength based. Because he can very readily buff himself (even in the midst of combat) I can keep my AC up at low levels without having to have a high dex. I certainly didnt dump it but its actally the 14 vs the 18 str. And in a couple levels it wont matter because I'll have access to the heavier armor types.

And remember that barbarian doesnt also get to cast a spell when he attacks, and possibly grant himself another attack in the process. The justification for allowing this action economy benefit was always that the attack routine is suboptimal. If you start allowing the best ones, you end up voiding that justification


Owen K. C. Stephens wrote:
Cheapy wrote:
I really like the idea behind the Tovenaar. I don't recall the Inquisitions exactly, but this character looks like he could be a ton of fun. One question though: Is the "Take two domains" option only available at level one, at which point you can't take any more inquisitions *or* domains? Or do you get the new domains at the same level you'd get the inquisitions? Basically...can you mix or match?

You can mix and match.

Cheapy wrote:
Magavan seems like they could be interesting. Lorestrike seems a bit silly to me, so I'm glad the stipulation about failed saving throws is in there. It seems like you'd want to know that stuff *before* you smack someone.

That's going to depend a lot on the style of game and adventure. But it never hursts to be able to learn someone is thinking "Fools! If I hold you here for another minute, the Great Ritual will be complete!" or "Throg hope caravan guards not know throg hate fire."

I suppose the "can select domains" at later levels is somewhat implied by the act of choosing an inquisition at a later level. Perhaps a sentence clarifying this could help. I do really like the idea being the Tovenaar. It has a very...Book of 9 Swords feel to it. Which I like.

And I hadn't thought of that use of Lorestrike!

Between yours and Steven's PDFs, I really want to play a Magus now :(

Liberty's Edge

Kolokotroni wrote:

And remember that barbarian doesnt also get to cast a spell when he attacks, and possibly grant himself another attack in the process. The justification for allowing this action economy benefit was always that the attack routine is suboptimal. If you start allowing the best ones, you end up voiding that justification

In fairness, though, the barbarian ends up with one more iterative attack than the magus gets in the first place, and is gaining iterative attacks at a faster rate than the Magus does. Personally, I would be loathe to play a two-handed weapon magus, as I'd be too afraid of missing with my power attack. Sure, it'd be cool to spellstrike/power-attack an enemy, but if you miss, MAN.


just bought this one, and i'd certainly say it's worth the piffling $3 it costs.

I especially like the Cabalist (WOO spontaneous casting!) and the Arcana Lord (WOO more arcana pool and powers!)

For the arcanas themselves i like Arcane Critical, and Warding the most, and althought i can't see myself using them, i know my friends will like most of the others!

And as others have said, anything that gives me more options for my favourite class is a good thing! With this i can envisage an all-Magus party, where no two are alike!

Scarab Sages

Banatine wrote:
just bought this one, and i'd certainly say it's worth the piffling $3 it costs.

Thanks!

Banatine wrote:

I especially like the Cabalist (WOO spontaneous casting!) and the Arcana Lord (WOO more arcana pool and powers!)

For the arcanas themselves i like Arcane Critical, and Warding the most,

I appreciate the feedback -- that's really helpful when planning out the release schedule.

Banatine wrote:
And as others have said, anything that gives me more options for my favourite class is a good thing! With this i can envisage an all-Magus party, where no two are alike!

So, on top of making sure you know about our Beloved Rival's Offering, let me ask you.

What else would you like to see? More arcana and archetypes? Magus-specific spells? Magus magic items? None of the above?


A magus archetype that focuses on Whips could be interesting. Lots of battlefield control options there. I've already seen quite a few people ask about magus whip builds. Perhaps a Magi that focuses on using Rods as well? Those definitely don't get enough love. I recall the Warlock in 3.5 getting a special Rod that could be used as a Mace, but also had activatable abilities in it. Maybe they focus on Wyrd/Rune Rods? :)


Owen K. C. Stephens wrote:


So, on top of making sure you know about our Beloved Rival's Offering, let me ask you.

What else would you like to see? More arcana and archetypes? Magus-specific spells? Magus magic items? None of the above?

I think the magus' arsenal of spells could use expansion, specifically ranged touch spells. The close combat arcana seems kind of lacking because of the magus' very limited selection of spells that work with it in the first place. Obviously these dont have to be magus only, something like the Super Genius Guide to Combat Magic could include a fair amount of such spells. I also plan on picking through past spells products (ice, air etc magic) to see what spells I think works for the Magus, but some direction there would be appreciated, maybe piggy backing a list of genius spells to be added to the magus spell list on the Combat Magic Product?

I'd also like to see organizations, possibly with prestige classes to go with them. Do maguses really go to normal wizard guilds or do they organize amongst themselves? (possibly along with archons and vangaurds?).

I would also like to see some Genius style archetypes that tie in with fighter mages. The paizo style archetypes have their place, but the kind that SGG started with are some of my favorite things in the game, and I do hope they will continue to be in the hopper as appropriate.

Scarab Sages

Kolokotroni wrote:
I think the magus' arsenal of spells could use expansion, specifically ranged touch spells. The close combat arcana seems kind of lacking because of the magus' very limited selection of spells that work with it in the first place.

My only concern is too many ranged touch spells makes close combat a must-have arcana, and I dislike that kind of imbalance. Still, a mix of touch and ranged touch spells might well be a good idea.

Kolokotroni wrote:
Obviously these dont have to be magus only, something like the Super Genius Guide to Combat Magic could include a fair amount of such spells. I also plan on picking through past spells products (ice, air etc magic) to see what spells I think works for the Magus, but some direction there would be appreciated, maybe piggy backing a list of genius spells to be added to the magus spell list on the Combat Magic Product?

We'll need to cover it somewhere, for sure. I still plan releasing a free PDF that updates spells for the APG, I may just throw the magus list in on that.

Kolokotroni wrote:
I'd also like to see organizations, possibly with prestige classes to go with them. Do maguses really go to normal wizard guilds or do they organize amongst themselves? (possibly along with archons and vangaurds?).

That's interesting. I'll ponder n that.

Kolokotroni wrote:
I would also like to see some Genius style archetypes that tie in with fighter mages. The paizo style archetypes have their place, but the kind that SGG started with are some of my favorite things in the game, and I do hope they will continue to be in the hopper as appropriate.

Oh, magi will get added in our next Archetypes book, for sure, and we'll have some archetypes that work well for them.

Scarab Sages

YuenglingDragon wrote:
I'll get a review up tomorrow but I'm pretty impressed with my first reading.

Thanks for the review!

Scarab Sages

Many thanks to Cheapy for our second review!


One thing I'd like to point out, since you guys are cross-promoting each other it would seem, is that this product and Rite Publishing's Secrets of the Magus work really well together.

What I mean is that Rite Publishing's book has a lot of "active" abilities. Wave of Mutilation, Flattening Strike, Animate Weapon (especially that sweet disarm-and-animate part!), etc. These are abilities that the Magus can actively do.

Ultimate Options: New Magus Arcana offers up a ton of new ways to play the magus; lots of new playstyles. Wanna be awesome at Wands? Take Wand Lord. Wanna be wield a falchion and smack down your foes with arcane fury? Hello there Greater Enruned Great Weapon. And the archetypes are excellent, and really allow the character to try out different playstyles.

There is some overlap between the books, but they both compliment each other extremely well. I would have a blast playing an Arcana Lord that has Enrune Great Weapon and Charge of the Magi. Or a Staff Magus with Doublefire Wand and Staff Mastery. Or a Sword'n'board Magus that uses Enruned Shield to be able to shield bash her enemies, using Flattening Strike on those she hits. Awesome!

Dark Archive

Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber

Yes they work well together... almost like they planned it...

Scarab Sages

Dark_Mistress wrote:
Yes they work well together... almost like they planned it...

Which, oddly, we didn't. I didn't know about Rite's project until they announced it the day before mine came out. We *did* talk then, mostly to make sure we didn't use the same stock art and do a cybernetic fist-bump.


Mr. Stephens, I just purchased and downloaded this pdf, and I am having a lot of trouble viewing the file properly. Most of the pages are completely black, with the exception of the character art. Do you have any idea why this may, or anything I can do to fix or change it?

Scarab Sages

Kilbourne wrote:
Mr. Stephens, I just purchased and downloaded this pdf, and I am having a lot of trouble viewing the file properly. Most of the pages are completely black, with the exception of the character art. Do you have any idea why this may, or anything I can do to fix or change it?

What viewer are you using for the PDF?


Owen K. C. Stephens wrote:


What viewer are you using for the PDF?

I'm using the program Preview, Version 4.2 (469.5)

Scarab Sages

Kilbourne wrote:
Owen K. C. Stephens wrote:


What viewer are you using for the PDF?
I'm using the program Preview, Version 4.2 (469.5)

Okay, I am now looking into this. In the meantime, if you'd like, you can contact me at ostephens (at) aol (dot) com, and I'll send you an .rtf version of the text so you can at least read the book.


hmmm, interesting, I just noticed something about the cabalist that may (or may not) have been overlooked. The cabalist kind of loses out against the normal magus' casting because the magus already gets the bard's spells per day progression(which the cabalist gets), and spell recall offers most of the flexibility of spontaneous casting for a much bigger potential list of spells available.

So I wonder if the cabalist should get like 1 more spell per day per level or something to give something to the spontaneous version to even out the gap a little?

Scarab Sages

Kolokotroni wrote:
hmmm, interesting, I just noticed something about the cabalist that may (or may not) have been overlooked. The cabalist kind of loses out against the normal magus' casting because the magus already gets the bard's spells per day progression(which the cabalist gets), and spell recall offers most of the flexibility of spontaneous casting for a much bigger potential list of spells available.

Actually, Spell Recall doesn't increase your flexability much. It let's you recall a spell you cast, as if that spell had not been cast. You can't prepare some other spell. So whatever a magus prepares at the beginning of the day he's still stuck with. And the ability to spam one spell over and over is still severely limited, since a higher-level spell takes a lot of points from your arcane pool. Spending 4 points to recall a 4th level spell is nice, but if you didn't prepare the spell you need, you still can't cast it

All things considered, I'm still happy with the balance the way it is. :)

Scarab Sages

Kilbourne wrote:
I'm using the program Preview, Version 4.2 (469.5)

Okay, so far it looks like a few people on that version have had trouble, but it clears up it they use Version 5.0.3 (504.1). Is that an option for you?


Owen K. C. Stephens wrote:
Kilbourne wrote:
I'm using the program Preview, Version 4.2 (469.5)
Okay, so far it looks like a few people on that version have had trouble, but it clears up it they use Version 5.0.3 (504.1). Is that an option for you?

Yes, and I will upgrade to that asap. I have also contacted you by email.

Scarab Sages

Kilbourne wrote:
Owen K. C. Stephens wrote:


Okay, so far it looks like a few people on that version have had trouble, but it clears up it they use Version 5.0.3 (504.1). Is that an option for you?
Yes, and I will upgrade to that asap. I have also contacted you by email.

Received and responded! Let me know what the Preview update does for you.


Oh my, I'm rather late on this ship.

I had some comments about Tovenaar.
Firstly, Tovenaar is weak. I don't mean this as an insult, but as a criticism that I shall now expand on.
The Inquisition mechanic of Tovenaar is wonderful, I'm a big fan, I wish there were more things like this to make a true magic warrior that doesn't need to rely on spellcasting...
But on that note, Inquisitions, even if you're getting 2-10 of them, do Not par up to spells. Damage, utility, and overall function, not to mention usage per day, none of that is maintained through the Spells to Inquisition Powers exchange, and not only that, but you lose spell recall, one of the most valuable abilities to a magus (Giving you the ability to hurl 20 fireballs in a day and never use more than your 3rd level spell slots)
My first suggestion is changing the ability replacements for Inquisitions to only replace spellcasting, because that is exactly what it is doing.
I then propose the ability to use Arcane Pool points to refresh uses of inquisition powers, to preserve that kind of magus gameplay.
Additionally, with the sharp dropoff of spellcasting, I would propose giving the Tovenaar more occasions for gaining Magus Arcana.

Alternatively, you could ignore my complaints about spell power and the like, and perhaps take a loot at the Tovenaar attack bonus and HP, perhaps giving them an ability like the 3.5 Swashbuckler's Grace ability, and granting the Tovenaar an attack and HP bonus while leveling, such as an additional +1 to hit every 6 levels and an extra HP each level (cheesy, I know)

My suggestions aren't the best, but I really feel like dropping spellcasting, cantrips, spellstrike, spell recall, knowledge pool, improved spell recall, and greater spell access all just for the inquisitions really downplays the potential of the concept for Tovenaar and makes the archetype so weak overall that it would not be appealing enough to compete with other magus archetypes and the core class itself.

I LOVE the concept of Tovenaar, but it just doesn't feel finished.
It would be sweet to see an errata that grants the Tovenaar a few extra abilities for the great number of them that they lose, in addition to their valued spellcasting.


I'm not sure I agree with your assessment of the relative power levels. Having a cavaliers mount, rage, a +4 to confirm threats (yours or allies), and automatically healing when you fall below 9 hit points (perfectly possible for a 4th level tovenaar) compared to one 2nd and three 1st level spells.


True, that it's more powerful at lower levels, those powers don't scale up against 6 levels of spellcasting. Even the 6/8th level inquisition powers tend to pale to the function and flexibility of prepared casting, not to mention the fact that the powers are usually once a day.

Either way, my big pickle with this is that I feel the class is not fairly compensated for the abilities it gives up. Power levels aside, spellcasting justifies inquisitions. I really feel like spell recall could use its own replacement ability with the Tovenaar, even if it's just as uncreative as being able to spend arcana points to gain back daily uses of inquisition powers. Maybe 1 for 1 for powers that you get multiple uses per day (rage rounds, powers that give 3+stat/day) and 2 for 1/day abilities, or as mentioned, a few more magus arcana over the course of the 20 level progression.

Why inquisitions instead of arcane schools?


Iorthol wrote:
even if it's just as uncreative as being able to spend arcana points to gain back daily uses of inquisition powers. Maybe 1 for 1 for powers that you get multiple uses per day (rage rounds, powers that give 3+stat/day) and 2 for 1/day abilities

You mean like the new arcana they gain access to? "A tovenaar also has access to this magus arcana:

Mystic Power (Su): The tovenaar may expend one point from his arcane pool as a swift action to regain one expended use of an ability from an inquisition that has a limited number of uses per day."

Iorthol wrote:
Why inquisitions instead of arcane schools?

Inquisitions are designed to be useful for a hybrid fighting character. Arcane schools are designed to be useful for a full 9-level spellcaster. The inquisitions are must more useful, in general, with mounts rather than familiars, and rage rather than 1d4 claw attacks.

The tovenaar balanced quite nicely in playtesting, but class balance can be heavily influenced by play style. If your group finds it underpowered, by all means add a new magus arcana.

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