Bard Fascinate

[DGRM44]

Pg. 37 Fascinate (Su): At 1st level, a bard can use his performance
to cause one or more creatures to become fascinated with
him.
.......
For every three levels the bard has attained beyond 1st, he can
target one additional creature with this ability.

Does anyone know how many creatures the bard can affect at 1st level? It seems that it can be more than 1 at 1st level, but then it contradicts that later in the paragraph.

[Aldin]

One. The reason for the language is that the ability scales.

[kingpin]

Just to jack this thread. I'm curious as to how different GM's let fascinate work. I have had a long tern discussion with my GM as to when this can and can't be used and whether it is considered and attack?

In fact I have a 10th level bard and never be able to use it.

Can you use it on the first round of combat? The enemy have drawn their weapons and charged forward with the intent to attack.

If you successfully fascinate 1 enemy do others consider that an attack and if a fight starts, does that then negate the fascinate?

I'd love to hear opinions.

[LoreKeeper]

@kingpin:

It is best to think of Fascinate as a non-combat ability. There are very very few circumstances in combat where fascinate can be applied. Assume that it can never be done, and you've got it sorted out.

However, there are unlimited uses for it outside combat that make sense and are relevant.

But not combat.

[DGRM44]

Part of Fascinate rules:
Any obvious threat, such as someone drawing a weapon, casting a spell, or aiming a weapon at the target, automatically breaks the effect

Thus my take is you NEVER use fascinate during combat, only during non-combat situations. Maybe you want a theif to sneak past a guard or something similar?

[patnodewf]

Hypnotism, d20pfsrd.com wrote:

If you use this spell in combat, each target gains a +2 bonus on its saving throw. If the spell affects only a single creature not in combat at the time, the saving throw has a penalty of -2.

That is the mechanic that my group usually runs the Bardic Performance under. Of course you also have this playing a part of it too:

Bardic Fascinate, d20pfsrd.com wrote:

Any potential threat to the target allows the target to make a new saving throw against the effect. Any obvious threat, such as someone drawing a weapon, casting a spell, or aiming a weapon at the target, automatically breaks the effect.

Rather than saying something is impossible, just set the DC for it.

[Garith]

LoreKeeper wrote:

@kingpin:

It is best to think of Fascinate as a non-combat ability. There are very very few circumstances in combat where fascinate can be applied. Assume that it can never be done, and you've got it sorted out.

But not combat.

DGRM44 wrote:

Part of Fascinate rules:
Any obvious threat, such as someone drawing a weapon, casting a spell, or aiming a weapon at the target, automatically breaks the effect

Thus my take is you NEVER use fascinate during combat, only during non-combat situations. Maybe you want a theif to sneak past a guard or something similar?

Sorry folks, but I must completely disagree with these statements. Fascinate is HOW a bard should enter combat, if during the surprise round or should he act first in the combat. Remember also, Bards get stealth as a class skill. Therefore you can also sneak up on your opponent(s) and basically start your Bardic Performance coming out of the sneak. This is a GREAT opener against say a Troll or Ogre due to their low Will saves.

For example:
I recently was in a game with my 4th level bard. Two Ogres and a Troll were arguing over some loot and who was going to eat the halfling they just captured. I snuck in and began fascinating the two ogres. The rest of my party then jumped the Troll. I kept the two Ogres out of combat while my party dispatched the Troll. Afterwards, they came back and took both the loot and the halfling safely away.They then took on one of the Ogres as I kept the other fascinated, finally dispatching the last afterwards.

The rules state:
1. The distraction of a nearby combat or other dangers prevents the ability from working. However, this is BEFORE you fascinate. Once fascinated, they will only pay attention to the bard unless they are directly threatened. Its like fishing...if you jump in the water, you will chase away the fish, but if you already have them on the hook, you can jump in as much as you want.
2. Any obvious threat, such as someone drawing a weapon, casting a spell, or aiming a weapon at the target, automatically breaks the effect. Now for this, it's more towards the subjective meaning of "obvious threat" and how the DM/GM chooses to define it. The way we have played is that as long as you take no menacing actions or threaten the target directly, fascinate does not break (which satisfies the "at the target" stipulation). Is your party member casting a healing spell? That would not break it, but a True Strike or flaming orb would. However, you have to take into consideration that an Ogre, unless leveled, would have spellcraft or K:arcana and would not know that someone was casting a spell unless it directly affected him or her. The point being that this part of fascinate is subjective.

The main point being that fascinate allows the bard to be more than just a buffer. Through fascinate he or she has the ability to take a target or targets completely out of combat like charm person or monster, at the cost of being able to do anything else.

[kingpin]

I think one of the main problems we have then, is that whenever we come across guards or some such, the map is drawn out and initiative is rolled. The only time we have a non-combat encounter is when fighting isn't by far a bad option for the.

My next big question... Is a failed fascinate considered an attack? Would it trigger combat, or do they just think you were telling a joke, or singing a melody?

[Garith]

@Kingpin

Kingpin, do you sneak up? If you sneak up and the guards or whomever do not detect you, a surprise round should be the next course of action by your DM/GM.

Fascinate is a Supernatural ability tied in with your bardic performance. So unless the opponent has some sort of Knowledge that lets him know what you are doing, then I would not say that they think it is just you singing, playing an instrument or whatever. Again, a DM/GM judgement call. Now if they are already hostile towards you for whatever reason, then yes combat begins as soon as they detect your presence.