This is opening up a whole new can of campaign worms...
I have had two players that built keeps. One was a fighter who essentially became a lord of a manor. The other was a wizard who built a tower on a remote uncharted island.
In both cases the character became less and less likely to engage in campaigns due to their increased desire to manage their home. In the fighter's case his keep introduced stability in a previously wild area, and as a result a town eventually sprang up and he ended up having to deal with taxes, building a police force, patrolling the area, etc. At some point that just becomes a repetitive role playing experience.
In the wizard's case he essentially became a loner who researches the creation of magic items, and who only adventures when he is after something specific.
As far as the cost and timing goes, you have to use some common sense in applying the rules. Unless the logs, nails, ropes, tools and laborers happen to be all on site and waiting for your orders, it is a significant endeavor just to coordinate that. In medieval times nails in the quantities needed for building a wooden keep were not available at your local hardware store, they literally had to be made by blacksmiths. In a similar manner, local wood supplies were meant to supply the needs of normal trade, and building a keep would require hiring woodcutters to go and cut trees, trim them, haul them to a lumber mill, cut them to size and then haul them to the building site.
It is highly unlikely that in any realistic sense a keep could be built from scratch in less than a month. Unless you start applying some heavy magic, or bend the rules of common sense so severely that you may as well just have the keep appear overnight and take the party's gold and call it done.
This would also give the party a great opportunity to encounter the local druid who might object to the sudden increase in tree cutting.
This is opening up a whole new can of campaign worms...
I have had two players that built keeps. One was a fighter who essentially became a lord of a manor. The other was a wizard who built a tower on a remote uncharted island.
In both cases the character became less and less likely to engage in campaigns due to their increased desire to manage their home. In the fighter's case his keep introduced stability in a previously wild area, and as a result a town eventually sprang up and he ended up having to deal with taxes, building a police force, patrolling the area, etc. At some point that just becomes a repetitive role playing experience.
In the wizard's case he essentially became a loner who researches the creation of magic items, and who only adventures when he is after something specific.
As far as the cost and timing goes, you have to use some common sense in applying the rules. Unless the logs, nails, ropes, tools and laborers happen to be all on site and waiting for your orders, it is a significant endeavor just to coordinate that. In medieval times nails in the quantities needed for building a wooden keep were not available at your local hardware store, they literally had to be made by blacksmiths. In a similar manner, local wood supplies were meant to supply the needs of normal trade, and building a keep would require hiring woodcutters to go and cut trees, trim them, haul them to a lumber mill, cut them to size and then haul them to the building site.
It is highly unlikely that in any realistic sense a keep could be built from scratch in less than a month. Unless you start applying some heavy magic, or bend the rules of common sense so severely that you may as well just have the keep appear overnight and take the party's gold and call it done.
This would also give the party a great opportunity to encounter the local druid who might object to the sudden increase in tree cutting.
A crude structure can be made without nails, log cabin style. This should require some ranks in survival, or an appropriate profession.
A crude structure can be made without nails, log cabin style. This should require some ranks in survival, or an appropriate profession.
True, although I would not call a glorified log cabin a "keep". And in fact such a structure is less efficient in wood use than a structure built with milled wood, so would require even more trees to be cut down, perhaps causing even more attention from a local druid.
Even so it's not going to happen overnight. Just the cutting and hauling of the trees is a massive undertaking in a world where all you have to do that is axes, horses and rope. So maybe not a month, but almost certainly weeks.
but it may just start off as one big room
In order to be at all defensible, it should probably start not as a room, but as a wall around a camp.
Also, look into hill forts, i think thats where this is headed.
Personally I'd just abstract it. Nit picking each individual gold piece and trying to mathematically solve each individual day for what is essentially a plot thread and fluff piece is just off in my book.
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The players in my game have taken the Leadership feat and want their followers to help them build a base.
A little background on the campaign...the PCs and followers are all part of an invading army, and they are looking to build near a conquered large city. This region has traded hands several times over the past century, and the invaders aren't looking to destroy the area or enslave people - they just want to control the city and make it part of their kingdom/nation/whatever. Also, the followers (just like all other soldiers) are fed, housed, and paid by the army, so I'm not worried about those details.
Right now it looks like the PCs may start with a "20 ft x 20 ft" wooden structure. I looked at the D&D 3.0 (3.5?) Stronghold Builder's Guidebook for pricing. The wooden structure with a strong wooden door and amazing lock totals 1,190 gp. I've seen other threads on the Paizo boards complain that the prices in this book are way too high, but this doesn't seem unreasonable to me. Then again, most of the PCs are 14th-level now, so that's pocket change to them at this point.
Also, the book states that time takes 1 week per 10,000 gp, so it would seem like this structure could be built in less than 1 day. If I assume 8 hours of work per day and 7 days per week, that breaks down to about 178 gp per hour, so this would take just under 6 hours. Does this seem too fast?
I assume the above price and time is assuming that they are hiring workers who have the raw materials (i.e. beams of lumber) available and ready to go. However, the current situation will use followers. Should they work for free or receive some sort of payment? As it stands, the PCs gave equipment and spoils and other rewards to the soldiers in their previous unit, and it seems like that may continue, so even if payment is required, the followers will wind up getting something eventually.
Additionally, the plan seems to be for the cohorts and followers to go to a nearby grove and chop down wood for the structure. Therefore, they...
You missed a few steps here..
As you have stated what you just bought for that 1200 gold is a 20 square foot box with no walls, roof or defenses but a good lock on a non-existent door.
In the stronghold builders guide go to the next chapter after that and you'll see you also have to pay for the walls (with modifiers based on what type of materials as well as how close to town you are to get them). Every door and Window has to be purchased separately as well as all the furnishings (bought as a package).
A basic keep equivalent to a simple 3 story tower should run 10-15K minimum.
Easiest way is to grab the example in the handbook for the simple keep and use that as a template and go from there.
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You missed a few steps here..
As you have stated what you just bought for that 1200 gold is a 20 square foot box with no walls, roof or defenses but a good lock on a non-existent door.
In the stronghold builders guide go to the next chapter after that and you'll see you also have to pay for the walls (with modifiers based on what type of materials as well as how close to town you are to get them). Every door and Window has to be purchased separately as well as all the furnishings (bought as a package).
A basic keep equivalent to a simple 3 story tower should run 10-15K minimum.Easiest way is to grab the example in the handbook for the simple keep and use that as a template and go from there.
Actually, the price listed above includes wooden walls, a strong wooden door, and an amazing lock. I'm not worried about the price of land, and there are no windows, furnishings, or special defenses in this example. Though, I assume the walls come with a floor and ceiling. At least I don't see any separate pricing for floors and ceiling. Also, walls that are just an open box seem to be more along the lines of the cheaper "freestanding walls".
But I will take a look at the cheap keep example in the book.
Well if you just wanted to surround a 20 ft square of dirt with a 10 foot wall and a door then yeah your prices are about right. But that's not really a stronghold, more of a fenced yard.
Well if you just wanted to surround a 20 ft square of dirt with a 10 foot wall and a door then yeah your prices are about right. But that's not really a stronghold, more of a fenced yard.
No, it is basically a house.
Lets see, he didn't specify what the room would be, so I will assume a Basic Common Area (1 space, 500 gold; basic common areas are described as all-purpose rooms). If we make both the interior and exterior walls from wood, it costs 1000 gold (900 if in a forest). But wait... if on the ground floor, wood walls are free, and so cost us nothing (why they are free, I will never know. Doesn't make sense to me.) HE specified a strong wooden door (40gp), and an amazing lock (150 gp). Nothing extra. So, the cost will be 500+40+150 = 990 gp (modified by the terrain type and closeness to the settlement).
So you get what is basically a one room log cabin, not a stronghold by any means.
(And for reference, the 3 story tower someone mentioned is priced at 50k gold in the DMG, but only 800 gold in the Stronghold Builders Guide. Just a minor price difference...)
You missed a few steps here..
As you have stated what you just bought for that 1200 gold is a 20 square foot box with no walls, roof or defenses but a good lock on a non-existent door.
In the stronghold builders guide go to the next chapter after that and you'll see you also have to pay for the walls (with modifiers based on what type of materials as well as how close to town you are to get them). Every door and Window has to be purchased separately as well as all the furnishings (bought as a package).
A basic keep equivalent to a simple 3 story tower should run 10-15K minimum.Easiest way is to grab the example in the handbook for the simple keep and use that as a template and go from there.
No, as I showed in my post right above this one, the wooden walls are accounted for. Wood walls are free on the ground floor of a stronghold. And every space comes with 2 simple wooden doors, and a simple shuttered window already included in the basic cost of the space. Furnishings are also already accounted for in the price for each space. The Basic Common Area I used in the post above says:
"This plain room features bare floors with a few benches and walls with uninspiring artwork or tapestries. It might serve as a waiting room, a general meeting area, or an all-purpose room."
In terms of the metagame to keep characters adventuring two things come to my mind. 1) The character can appoint a trust worthy (i.e the GM swears a blood oath never to have this NPC betray his boss) steward to over see afairs while the master is out. 2) Allow the player to quasi-retire the character and appoint a knight or other servant to take his place with the group.
In terms of the metagame to keep characters adventuring two things come to my mind. 1) The character can appoint a trust worthy (i.e the GM swears a blood oath never to have this NPC betray his boss) steward to over see afairs while the master is out. 2) Allow the player to quasi-retire the character and appoint a knight or other servant to take his place with the group.
This is a good idea. A character acquiring land/title/stronghold/wizard lab is a big thing for some players and allowing them to have a cohort who runs it or adventures while they are running it would be a good way to let them have their fun as a GM while still letting them contribute to the game.
A typical European fort usually started out with some earthwork. Dig out a circular moat and pile the dirt in the center to create a hill (or look for a natural prominence that mimics this desired effect). Then fell a large number of trees, remove their branches, and create a stockade-type wall around the top of your hill. Build a gateway into the wall, and build a gangway or bridge of some sort leading over the moat and up to the gate. Then build structures within the confines of the wall.
As time goes by, you can add towers to the wall, replace the gate with a gatehouse, replace the wooden walls with stonework, divert and/or dam a river in order to surround your keep with an artificial lake, add extra walls to enclose more area, replace simple wooden structures inside with a masonry keep, etc.
The point being that forts/keeps/castles/what-have-you were often works in progress for years and years. They didn't just get built in a short period of time and then sit there unchanged.
Another point to consider is the fact that entire castles routinely have disappeared during the course of history as building materials from one structure have been carted away for use in another. If your PCs have recently conquered an area, it is very likely that the materials needed to build their keep could be scavenged from keeps and forts that they don't want their enemies to be able to use anymore.
This is a brilliant idea for PCs with Leadership.
Honestly, I think this is something you should play by ear - let the PCs design their "keep" - something they can all pitch in and enjoy (particularly PCs who like to plan and/or draw a lot), and then gauge the price and build time.
Let the PCs have their fun, throw in some wrinkles for details (like locks, magical defenses, etc), and don't sweat the small stuff. This is an opportunity for your PCs to establish themselves in an area in your world, recognize the effects of their feat choices and opportunities (namely Leadership, and being in the army), and become a force that can make their own destiny, in time.
Perhaps followers with profession (farmer) and craft skills could, with the PCs help, create small workshops outside the keep. The farmers could prepare to grow crops in small fields. The PCs can hire trustworthy people they know to manage the affairs of this area, and in time, it becomes a town - the PCs are the joint rulers, and make decisions about the town, and perhaps even start their own businesses within it. Some PCs may meet a particular NPC they like, and even hold a wedding ceremony, who can rule in their spouse's stead while the PC is off on adventure.
All of this is relevant to if the PCs will enjoy this kind of role-playing - near the end of a campaign, they might be interested to see where their PCs end up afterwards, and you can write a small "epilogue" to read to them after the final quest.
Reefwood, this is an amazing opportunity for you and your players to really let the PCs have effects that last far beyond their adventuring days, to make their mark on the world in a tangible way, and leave off the entire campaign on a very high and satisfying note. This aspect, along with the final mission they must perform to end the campaign, will require your very best DMing skills to manage - but if you pull it off, the events in the final few playing sessions will be talked about for years to come by everyone involved.
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You missed a few steps here..
As you have stated what you just bought for that 1200 gold is a 20 square foot box with no walls, roof or defenses but a good lock on a non-existent door.
In the stronghold builders guide go to the next chapter after that and you'll see you also have to pay for the walls (with modifiers based on what type of materials as well as how close to town you are to get them). Every door and Window has to be purchased separately as well as all the furnishings (bought as a package).
A basic keep equivalent to a simple 3 story tower should run 10-15K minimum.Easiest way is to grab the example in the handbook for the simple keep and use that as a template and go from there.
No, as I showed in my post right above this one, the wooden walls are accounted for. Wood walls are free on the ground floor of a stronghold. And every space comes with 2 simple wooden doors, and a simple shuttered window already included in the basic cost of the space. Furnishings are also already accounted for in the price for each space. The Basic Common Area I used in the post above says:
"This plain room features bare floors with a few benches and walls with uninspiring artwork or tapestries. It might serve as a waiting room, a general meeting area, or an all-purpose room."
Uhmm... he declared them as free standing walls which means no roof.
But yeah at best it's about a thousand gold for this log cabin and can be thrown together in about a day.The stronghold builders guide was a great idea but poorly implemented and suffered from crappy play testing (if any).
Use it as a basic guideline of features but chuck all the costs and build times out the window.
Also, the book states that time takes 1 week per 10,000 gp, so it would seem like this structure could be built in less than 1 day. If I assume 8 hours of work per day and 7 days per week, that breaks down to about 178 gp per hour, so this would take just under 6 hours. Does this seem too fast?
Yes, it does.
I don't know how I feel about the 1 week per 10,000 GP, but assuming it scales down like you have is a bit extreme. Every second is not worth 5 cp. It's building a house. A small, shack-like house that will gander snickers from various goblins, but a house nevertheless. You will hit a point where the effort to create a simple structure can't be made easier, or more precisely, there are economies of scale at some point for creating a larger structure.
I know it's a little 'deadly lava,' but my suspension of disbelief starts to scrape against the walls when a bunch of untrained people put up a whole house in less time than I've seen take trained people to hang a door. I would probably treat the week as a sort of minimum, and assume that it's a week because it includes all the gathering raw materials, running into supply problems, arguing about which way the door should face, realizing you cut the windowpanes in the wrong size, debating what to have for lunch, sending the soldier back to the store for the right size nails, and a lot of other problems that otherwise get really tricky because it forces you to decide just how medieval technology and magic do fit together as in comparison to modern expectations.
As to the craft skill questions, especially with free labor at hand (and as to the question of what to pay, only pay something if that guys being used for his carpentry skill, for instance, as opposed to a soldier using a saw and hammer), I wouldn't really do anything with game consequences, because, as above, you get into some fairly sophisticated economies, but have a pretty clear RP call - it's going to look like a hut made by non-professional labor.