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Not to step on toes, but for me, Prestige Classes offer something that the player can achieve and work towards throughout the game. It's not a 1 level deal like gaining Feats, but something you hav to actually progress towards, and than continue along that path. They also offer things that no other class does, (or things that are not normally allowed your class(s)). At the same time, it offers no more complexity than Feats or Archtypes, (and usually less for that matter, as you don't have to replace or augment something), but both gives a sense of achievement and character focus.
The other thing is, just about anyone can take a Feat. More or less. Simple prereqs and you are good. But for (most) Prestige Classes, you have to make more long term choices early on to develope into the PC. Even the Feat Chains, usually just build upon themselves, and then increase the ability that the earlier Feats grant.
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Not to step on toes, but for me, Prestige Classes offer something that the player can achieve and work towards throughout the game. It's not a 1 level deal like gaining Feats, but something you hav to actually progress towards, and than continue along that path. They also offer things that no other class does, (or things that are not normally allowed your class(s)). At the same time, it offers no more complexity than Feats or Archtypes, (and usually less for that matter, as you don't have to replace or augment something), but both gives a sense of achievement and character focus.
The other thing is, just about anyone can take a Feat. More or less. Simple prereqs and you are good. But for (most) Prestige Classes, you have to make more long term choices early on to develope into the PC. Even the Feat Chains, usually just build upon themselves, and then increase the ability that the earlier Feats grant.
+1
/cheers for more fluff heavy PrCs
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It's not a 1 level deal like gaining Feats, but something you have to actually progress towards, and than continue along that path.-some- feats are 1 level deals. I think there are many good examples upon which a good 1 level PrC could be designed as well.
But not all feats are 1 level deals.
What I mean by 1 level deals is that you gain and finish getting the benefit of a Feat in 1 level, as soon as you take it. While Prestige Classes are anywhere from 3 (very rare) to 14 total levels, with 5 or 10 being the common.
I think a 1 level prestige class would be pretty pointless, in all honesty. It would either look like the Cleric Archtypes, not actually do any of the things a Prestige Class needs to as far as specialization, accomplishment, or focus, or be very powerful as it tries to cram everything into 1 level. Or am I misunderstanding you? Do you mean a 1 level dip?
The other thing about Feats like Greater Feint, is that one they build upon themselves (in the chain) and are more designed to require what the Feat is going to use anyway, (bluff, combat expertise, Int, etc. . .), while Prestige Classes tend to be more along the lines of what would such a character likely have to be in this group, which may or may not actually be all that beneficial to the character. For example many magic prestige classes require an item creation feat, but may not either require or help with item creation, and the player may not care about making anything with that character.
I personall like and feel that Prestige Classes, Archtypes, Feats, and Feat Chains each have their place, and there really isn't a lot of cross-over between them. Rather people try to force it, which is what makes so many of the less than liked choices. I honestly think that an Achtype would be better for making "multiclass" characters, without multiclassing. A Cleric that drops medium armor, a Domain, and Channeling for 8 Skill points, some rogueish talents, and a few illusion spells would make a better Divine Trickster, than say a Rogue + Cleric, or Bard + Cleric, Feats or Prestige Classes. I honestly wish they would focus on that rather than some of the ideas that have come out.
The other big issue is that some classes get a lot more Feats, (and have a lot more Feats/Chains) for them, which also happen to to tend to be the ones with a lot of Archtypes. I think they need to be a lot more evenly distributed. With Prestige Classes, usually it is not restricted to a single class (only), but is often a little easier for a group of classes to go into that it is for others.
I've already pointed out the very reasons why prestige classes are useful and fun.I've only seen one 'reason' (note: singular) you've given as to why PrCs are "useful and fun" and that is that it makes character building more complex.
Would you mind explaining why you feel that PrCs have an advantage over feats in this regards. That is, why wouldn't access to more feats and feat chains satiate your desire for added complexity?
Until feats start offering a plethora of abilities in one feat, feats don't cut it. You'd end up spending over 6 feats just to get one specific concept for a character if converted PrC into feats.
I'd just like to add my voice to those who were looking for more PrC's. Just because 3.5 handled them poorly doesn't mean Pathfinder will go the same way. The problem in 3.5 was that they FILLED books with them. I don't want 15 prestige classes per new book, I'd be fine with 3-5. Design them well, make them interesting. It wouldn't be bloat (I'm already sick to death of archetypes...bought UM and didn't even LOOK at half of them). If WotC had actually taken the time to really design interesting and balanced prestige classes rather than going with a volume based approach, I don't think people would have any hate for them at all. I have faith that the folks at Pathfinder could do a good job with them (and already have for the most part!).
Pretty much Syl. Its what I've been saying all along.
It isn't that the people want OVER 9000! PrCs like in 3.5 days, but just a handful every so often.. would be nice. Especially if they enhance multiclass options or can easily influence several classes.
(I'm surprised though no one mentioned anything about the lack of magic items..)
But Ultimatly for the largest amount of character cusomtization, archtypes, base classes, PrCs, races, feats and the like (Maybe even racial replacement levels..) need to come along.
After Ultimate combat, I'm hoping for an Ultimate Races book that adds in more racial options, especially for new favored class bonuses of the existing races and some rather fun animialistic races instead of taking human and making him green skin and sharp teeth, or short with purple hair.
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I can't even quote what you responded because it is all my own stuff. . .
but in regards to Prestige Classes being for DMs only. Where did this come from? That concept is so strange to me. If you want an elite guard, the DM already has multiple methods for this. They could be a Fighter rather than warrior, they could be higher level, Elite Array, have better gear, or whatever. I see no reason at all to give them a Prestge Class, or worse NPC's the exclusivity of having Prestige Classes.
In my personal opinion and experience, when a DM starts giving out special abilities to NPC or Monsters that the Players can't ever gain, it is both annoying as heck and to me, a sign of a bad DM. 4E did this all the time in the early days when I played it, and it was not at all fun, (for me or my group).
But, just out of curiosity, if you think that Prestige Classes are best DM only, what exactly is the difference then from Archtypes and/or Feats being DM only? I mean would that be better anyway. More options for the DM who already has infinte options. (I'm honestly curious, not being snarky)
Still want an updated Archmage if some awesome designer is reading this thread ;).It's in the Core Rulebook. Goes by the name Wizard.
No
Actually I got a pretty good idea on the Archmage Archetype
You may not be universilist. when you select your school, select an additional school for your focus, you must ban an additional two schools that cannot be your focus schools. (So you wind up with 2 schools of focus and 4 banned schools and 2 normal schools.)
You gain all the benefits for having the second school as normal..
there may be additional bonuses.. Or you perhaps instead you get to hyperfocus in one school, thus becoming unusually good at it.
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WHAT????
I said that Prestige Classes are a mechanism for the GM. I never once said that only NPCs should be able to qualify for them. The GM might have a PrC for the Elite Guard of the Highborn King. The PCs can certainly strive to become Elite Guard of the Highborn King. It would, no doubt, involve a quest or proving themselves to the Highborn King (or his most trusted advisors). But the Elite Guard of the Highborn King PrC is intended to give the GM a way to add color to his setting.
Ok, I complete took what you said in a different way. You think more along the lines that the Players shouldn't know the prereqs to enter and tha it should be a little more in the DM's hands. Is that correct?
If so, I have no issue with that, as long as the DM is willing to work with the players.
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Actually I got a pretty good idea on the Archmage Archetype
You may not be universilist. when you select your school, select an additional school for your focus, you must ban an additional two schools that cannot be your focus schools. (So you wind up with 2 schools of focus and 4 banned schools and 2 normal schools.)
You gain all the benefits for having the second school as normal..
there may be additional bonuses.. Or you perhaps instead you get to hyperfocus in one school, thus becoming unusually good at it.
Not saying it's a bad idea, but I think the Archmage should be much more about overcomming their limitations in using magic (like specialist schools) than reinforcing them. Also, I don't really like the idea of Archmages being tied to any one school, but that's just me.
Not saying it's a bad idea, but I think the Archmage should be much more about overcomming their limitations in using magic (like specialist schools) than reinforcing them. Also, I don't really like the idea of Archmages being tied to any one school, but that's just me.Actually I got a pretty good idea on the Archmage Archetype
You may not be universilist. when you select your school, select an additional school for your focus, you must ban an additional two schools that cannot be your focus schools. (So you wind up with 2 schools of focus and 4 banned schools and 2 normal schools.)
You gain all the benefits for having the second school as normal..
there may be additional bonuses.. Or you perhaps instead you get to hyperfocus in one school, thus becoming unusually good at it.
Its not tied to anyone school. Universilists is not a school, which is why you cannot choose one.
Its basically along the same routes of the Unearthed arcana wizard archtype that locked out another school to gain more spells in his main school.
Flavour wise, is the opposite of what I would call archmage. I would call archmage someone mastering all the schools. So a generalist is more suitable.
I do not mean "I am right you are wrong" - just a matter of tastes.
Perhaps only 20th level Sorcerers and Wizards should be called "archmage" and call it a day.
While I think a redone Archmage needs to have options for both specialists and universalists that really isn't the point for this topic. Perhaps a new thread for that :).
STill though Kaiyanwang's mention of calling a 20th level Mage a Archmage brings something to mind.
I don't know how many people will recall the original Dragonlance campagin setting book for AD&D, but in it all the classes recieved titles at various levels.
Something along the lines of level 1 Wizard of the Black Robes was an "Apprentice" while a level 13 was a "Master of the Night" (Can't remember if that's the right title). While Paladins were squires and so forth.
Perhaps an adoption of that kind of system for homegames? I'm not sure it's an idea really worth publishing unless they did a book dedicated to Organizations within the setting.
While I think a redone Archmage needs to have options for both specialists and universalists that really isn't the point for this topic. Perhaps a new thread for that :).
STill though Kaiyanwang's mention of calling a 20th level Mage a Archmage brings something to mind.
I don't know how many people will recall the original Dragonlance campagin setting book for AD&D, but in it all the classes recieved titles at various levels.
Something along the lines of level 1 Wizard of the Black Robes was an "Apprentice" while a level 13 was a "Master of the Night" (Can't remember if that's the right title). While Paladins were squires and so forth.
Perhaps an adoption of that kind of system for homegames? I'm not sure it's an idea really worth publishing unless they did a book dedicated to Organizations within the setting.
I did something similar for my home games indeed. at level 1st, Pcs have an "apprentice" title like Squire for Cavalier and Disciple for Monk.
Then they go for titles until the name level, at 10 (so a level 10 druid IS a Druid). The title changes again at 20 (Inquisitors are Archinquisitors, Bards are Maestro and so on).
It's just an homage to name levels in previous edition of the game. I said that previously thinking about this :)
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NoStill want an updated Archmage if some awesome designer is reading this thread ;).It's in the Core Rulebook. Goes by the name Wizard.
Cartigan, if I remember correctly, the designer of the original Archmage prestige class (SKR) himself noted that in PF the core wizard killed the Archmage and stole its stuff. You might also need to pick some feats to represent different (3E) Archmage Arcana abilities, but it's a fact that there's no need for an Archmage PrC in PF -- unless it would be radically different from the 3E version.
Removed some posts - please post nicely. Thanks!
The folks at Paizo hate prestige classes. They also hate multiclassing. Neither option will get much support because they feel that sticking with one base class should be enough. I have mixed feelings on this.
I love prestige classes, and multiclassing; rare is the character I design that doesn't at least dip into some other class, or work towards a prestige class. That's one of the best aspects of 3.5/pathfinder, IMO. It saddens me that they intentionally ignore these options. There are plenty of feats and prestige classes in 3.5, but I'm finding a that many pathfinder DM's are following a disturbing trend of only allowing pathfinder material, and robbing the game of many good options.
That being said, I'm happy that they are trying to make base classes more attractive to stick with; some are better than others, but they are trying. I just wish they would show some love to their customer base that likes prestige classes and multiclassing.
This is an easy fix. Quit playing pathfinder and go back to 3.5. problem solved.
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This is an easy fix. Quit playing pathfinder and go back to 3.5. problem solved.The folks at Paizo hate prestige classes. They also hate multiclassing. Neither option will get much support because they feel that sticking with one base class should be enough. I have mixed feelings on this.
I love prestige classes, and multiclassing; rare is the character I design that doesn't at least dip into some other class, or work towards a prestige class. That's one of the best aspects of 3.5/pathfinder, IMO. It saddens me that they intentionally ignore these options. There are plenty of feats and prestige classes in 3.5, but I'm finding a that many pathfinder DM's are following a disturbing trend of only allowing pathfinder material, and robbing the game of many good options.
That being said, I'm happy that they are trying to make base classes more attractive to stick with; some are better than others, but they are trying. I just wish they would show some love to their customer base that likes prestige classes and multiclassing.
Or bring 3.x PrCs into your Pathfinder game (albeit a few minor tweaks). System's suppose to be backwards-compatible, after all.
Or bring 3.x PrCs into your Pathfinder game (albeit a few minor tweaks). System's suppose to be backwards-compatible, after all.
+1.
That's what I was thinking my whole read through this thread. My dozens of 3.0/3.5 books are still there on the shelf alongside my Pathfinder library. And there's a handy guide on this site for the minor conversions you might need to do.
Heck, I enjoy updating 3.5 prestige classes for my players. It let's me tailor to the players style.Did you, perchance, update the Archmage PrC for them? Seems to be a popular request here.
I'm not really sure why, the Archmage didn't really offer that much that was that useful. I used that PrC twice, a one level dip and a two level dip, the most powerful option was the +1 caster level (which let you go over your character level). Most of the other abilities have already been replicated via feats in Pathfinder. Speaking from experience, increasing caster levels is a dangerous game and I would not advise allowing players to go over their character level (I got my 17th level wizard to cast at 20th level and it was OP).
It was my earlier character that made the 2 level dip, I learned my lesson having wasted a level on something I rarely used and only did a 1 level dip on the later character.
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Did you, perchance, update the Archmage PrC for them? Seems to be a popular request here.
I did, but i made it a 10 level class, becuase i hate 5 level prestige classes. Here:
Hit Die: d6.
Requirements
To qualify to become an archmage, a character must fulfill all the following criteria.
Skills: Knowledge (arcana) 12 ranks, Spellcraft 12 ranks.
Feats: Skill Focus (Spellcraft), Spell Focus in two schools of magic.
Spells: Ability to cast 7th-level arcane spells, knowledge of 5th level
or higher spells from at least five schools.
Class Skills
The archmage’s class skills (and the key ability for each skill) are
Craft (alchemy) (Int), Knowledge (all skills taken individually) (Int), Profession (Wis), Perception (Wis), and
Spellcraft (Int).
Skill Ranks at Each Level: 2 + Int modifier.
Level Bab F/R/W Special
1 +0 1/1/2 High Arcana + 1 level of Arcane spellcasting class
2 +1 1/1/3 Arcane Fire + 2d6 + 1 level of Arcane spellcasting class
3 +1 1/1/3 High Arcana + 1 level of Arcane spellcasting class
4 +2 2/2/4 Arcane Fire + 4d6 + 1 level of Arcane spellcasting class
5 +2 2/2/4 High Arcana + 1 level of Arcane spellcasting class
6 +3 2/2/5 Arcane Fire + 6d6 + 1 level of Arcane spellcasting class
7 +3 3/3/5 High Arcana + 1 level of Arcane spellcasting class
8 +4 3/3/6 Arcane Fire + 8d6 + 1 level of Arcane spellcasting class
9 +4 3/3/6 High Arcana + 1 level of Arcane spellcasting class
10 +5 4/4/7 Arcane Fire + 10d6 + 1 level of Arcane spellcasting class
Class Features
All the following are class features of the archmage prestige class.
Weapon and Armor Proficiency: Archmages gain no proficiency with any weapon or armor.
Spells per Day/Spells Known: When a new archmage level is gained, the character gains new spells per day (and spells known, if applicable) as if he had also gained a level in whatever arcane spellcasting class in which he could cast 7th-level spells before he added the prestige class level. He does not, however, gain any other benefit a character of that class would have gained (bonus metamagic or item creation feats, 2 new spells if he was a wizard and so on). If a character had more than one arcane spellcasting class in which he could cast 7th-level spells before he became an archmage, he must decide to which class he adds each level of archmage for the purpose of determining spells per day.
Arcane Fire: The Archmage can manipulate arcane energies like no other. He can, as a standard action cast a ray of pure arcane energy, wich deals 2d6 points of damage. It also deals an additional 2d6 points of damage every even numbered level that the character takes in the archmage prestige class. The damage is not elemental in nature and thus no elemental resistance or immunity matter for this ability. This ability can be used 3+ the archmage's unaltered intelligence modifier per day. It is a spell-like ability and is subject to spell resistance.
High Arcana: An archmage learns secret lore unknown to lesser wizards and sorcerers. He gains the opportunity to select a special ability from among those described below.
Arcane Reach (Su): The archmage can use spells with a range of touch on a target up to 30 feet away. The archmage must make a ranged touch attack. Arcane reach can be selected a second time as a special ability, in which case the range increases to 60 feet.
Mastery of Counterspelling: When the archmage counterspells a spell, it is turned back upon the caster as if it were fully affected by a spell turning spell. If the spell cannot be affected by spell turning (for example, if it is a spell that affects an area), then it is merely counterspelled.
Mastery of Elements: The archmage can alter an arcane spell when cast so that it utilizes a different element from the one it normally uses. For example, an archmage could cast a fireball that deals sonic damage instead of fire damage. This ability can only alter a spell with the acid, cold, fire, electricity, or sonic descriptor. The spell’s casting time is unaffected. The caster decides whether to alter the spell’s energy type and chooses the new energy type when he begins casting. The caster cannot alter the energy form of a spell being cast from a spell-completion item like a wand or scroll. Only his memorized spells can be altered this way.
Mastery of Shaping: The archmage can alter area and effect spells that use one of the following shapes: burst, cone, cylinder, emanation, or spread. The alteration consists of creating spaces within the spell’s area or effect that are not subject to the spell. The minimum dimension for these spaces is a 5-foot cube. For example, an archmage could cast a fireball and leave a hole where his ally stands, preventing any fire damage. Furthermore, any shapeable spells have a minimum dimension of 5 feet instead of 10 feet.
Spell Power: This ability increases the archmage’s effective caster level by +1 (for purposes of determining level-dependent spell variables such as damage dice or range, and caster level checks only).
Spell-Like Ability: An archmage who selects this type of high arcana can permanently prepare one of her arcane spells as a spell-like ability that can be used twice per day. Metamagic feats can be applied to this spell-like ability, but the casting time is increased to a full-round action.
Arcane recomposition: The archmage is a being so suffused by arcane magic, he can actualy use it to heal his wounds. As a standard action, an archmage can concentrate to heal himself of damage. Using this ability cures the archmage with a number of six-sided dice equal to his archmage level. He can use this ability 3+ his Int modifier times per day. Using this ability does not provoke an attack of opportunity.
The Archmage can, however choose to touch a divine spellcaster and deal the same amount of damage that he would heal had he used the ability himself. This is considered an armed attack and does not provoke attacks of opportunity. The divine spellcaster can attempt to halve the damage by succeeding on a will saving throw with a DC equal to 10 + one half of the archmage’s level + his Int modifier. For purposes of concentration treat this ability as a 6th level spell.
Albeit, i made it pretty powerful, but i always thought that an archmage is an incredible badass....
With some of the earlier comments about archtypes replacing only the same one or two abilities... That seems intentional to me, I don't really think the idea was for a character to have more than one for his/her class. Actually they very much remind me of "kits" from 2nd ed. and I like having the slight shift in flavor for a character. (Even the geisha.) But I do like Prestige classes as well, and 2-5 a book (depending on size of the book) would not be an entirely bad thing.
Personally I dont like prestige classes much. I certainly dont believe they should be the tool used to acheive a character type (like arcane archer or eldritch knight). These prcs I despise. A player shouldnt have to wait months or sometimes years of real time to start feeling like the character he wanted to play. For certain very specific things I dont mind them, but I wouldn't want them to be any more prolific then they currently are in pathfinder material. I would much rather see material and options that can be used from level one.
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Was it intentional that only an epic-level wizard could complete it?
Not really, no. That was one thing that i forgot to change when i fixed the prc. And it didn't matter when my player asked me to fix it for him, because we were intending to go epic anyway.
It's easily fixed. Just change skill ranks to 10 and the knowledge of 7th level spells into 5th level spells. Everything else can stay the same.
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Makes sense. I still find Arcane Fire scales poorly, but at least it is useful now. 10d6 at 25th level is pretty forgettable.
Well, it would be a little op if it scaled like a spell...if for instance the number of d6s was equal to caster level, that would be too powerful.
Unless the number of times it could be cast was limited to 1/2 of archmage level per day.OH! I remember! I forgot to add to arcane fire, that if you choose to sacrifice a spell when you cast arcane fire, you add a number of d6s equal to the level of the spell to the damage dealt. Which does ammount to 19d6 of nonsoakable damage that you can cast in a pinch. Also, it is very easy to hit touch AC of most characters.
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Not to step on toes, but for me, Prestige Classes offer something that the player can achieve and work towards throughout the game. It's not a 1 level deal like gaining Feats, but something you hav to actually progress towards, and than continue along that path. They also offer things that no other class does, (or things that are not normally allowed your class(s)). At the same time, it offers no more complexity than Feats or Archtypes, (and usually less for that matter, as you don't have to replace or augment something), but both gives a sense of achievement and character focus.
The other thing is, just about anyone can take a Feat. More or less. Simple prereqs and you are good. But for (most) Prestige Classes, you have to make more long term choices early on to develope into the PC. Even the Feat Chains, usually just build upon themselves, and then increase the ability that the earlier Feats grant.
An excellent write up on why many people enjoy prestige classes.