Black Tentacles needs errata, overpowered

[ZappoHisbane]

Merkatz wrote:

By seventh level, your summons are lasting for just over a minute per cast, true.

There are 10 rounds to a minute, not 10 seconds to a round. Thus at 7th level a non-Extended Summon Monster would last 42 seconds.

[Flux Vector]

In my previous PF game I was using tentacles a lot as a witch, partly because of lack of better area control spells to use (it was an undead campaign, so any mind-affecting spells were mostly a wasted memorization). I'd much rather have been using Slow, actually, if I'd had it. Against humanoid targets, Tentacles had about a 40% success rate, and most encounters were a little too spread out to cover with a single AOE. I can't say tentacles won any fights by themselves, though they contributed decently to several.

Due to a combination of lucky rolls, the fact that it grapples on a failed Ref save rather than CMD check, and the fact that it provides cover, I actually got much, much more effective use out of Web in that campaign. If there was a singular spell that was the star of my selection in that campaign it hands down was Web, not tentacles. To the point I was mainly using tentacles against caster class enemies, or if there were no anchor points for web.

It's really a pretty average spell, especially compared to what you can do with other area save or suck. It just stands out a little bit because it's a 'CMD or suck' instead of 'save or suck,' and it can, before level 10 anyway, be a little rough on humanoids including players.

[Cartigan]

StevenPine wrote:

I'm glad this has generated discussion and some stat discussion.

What everyone is forgetting is that this spell is med range and one standard action. The next round a spell caster can coat the area affected with fireball, wall of fire, wall of ice, etc, when I speak about it creating a TPK I am assuming this spell can create the basic conditions to lead to a TPK

Lolno.

I cast Grease. TPK, MOFO, TPK!

[Abraham spalding]

magnuskn wrote:

Abraham spalding wrote:

NPCs have a 10 point buy -- PCs have a 'minimum recommendation' of 15.

Heroic class NPC's in AP's use a 15 point buy, just like everyone else.

Hm... Heroic -- meaning not normal NPCs... yup just helping me out here.

[Spacelard]

Yea, its overpowered...so my BBEG will have it and cast it...
Should have got Freedom of Movement cast on yourselves.
It works both ways...

[donato]

Does the damage on BT actually stack every round?

Each round that black tentacles succeeds on a grapple check, it deals an additional 1d6+4 points of damage.

I was reading this that if it succeeds on maintaining the grapple for the round, the spell deals 1d6 again, not 1d6 more from last round.

[Ross Byers]

I removed a post. Be constructive.

[Malagant]

donato wrote:

Does the damage on BT actually stack every round?

Each round that black tentacles succeeds on a grapple check, it deals an additional 1d6+4 points of damage.

I was reading this that if it succeeds on maintaining the grapple for the round, the spell deals 1d6 again, not 1d6 more from last round.

Each round you check for maintaining or establishing a grapple. Each time a grapple check is failed by the victim, it takes 1d6+4 damage. Simple right?

[donato]

Malagant wrote:

donato wrote:

Does the damage on BT actually stack every round?

Each round that black tentacles succeeds on a grapple check, it deals an additional 1d6+4 points of damage.

I was reading this that if it succeeds on maintaining the grapple for the round, the spell deals 1d6 again, not 1d6 more from last round.

Each round you check for maintaining or establishing a grapple. Each time a grapple check is failed by the victim, it takes 1d6+4 damage. Simple right?

My thoughts exactly. However, this:

StevenPine wrote:

A caster will have virtually no chance of overcoming the grapple otherwise and will be taking 1d6+4 dmg a turn(at 7 turns it is 7d6+28) (compare it to level 4 ice storm 5d6 with spell resist, or level 4 fireball (7d6, reflex save for half and spell resist)

led me to believe otherwise. I read it as on the 7th turn, he will take 7d6+28, and then on the 8th turn, it would be 8d6+32.

[Adam Ormond]

donato wrote:

Malagant wrote:

donato wrote:

Does the damage on BT actually stack every round?

Each round that black tentacles succeeds on a grapple check, it deals an additional 1d6+4 points of damage.

I was reading this that if it succeeds on maintaining the grapple for the round, the spell deals 1d6 again, not 1d6 more from last round.

Each round you check for maintaining or establishing a grapple. Each time a grapple check is failed by the victim, it takes 1d6+4 damage. Simple right?

My thoughts exactly. However, this:

StevenPine wrote:

A caster will have virtually no chance of overcoming the grapple otherwise and will be taking 1d6+4 dmg a turn(at 7 turns it is 7d6+28) (compare it to level 4 ice storm 5d6 with spell resist, or level 4 fireball (7d6, reflex save for half and spell resist)

led me to believe otherwise. I read it as on the 7th turn, he will take 7d6+28, and then on the 8th turn, it would be 8d6+32.

I believe the OP meant that, if you've failed to escape for 7 turns, you've taken 7d6+28 damage from this spell, total.

It really comes down to some players enjoying a style of play where you need to have the "answer" (Freedom of Movement style effect) at certain tiers - meaning game knowledge and mastery is important, and others preferring a more "dynamic" play style where the whole party does not have silver bullet to a particular problem doesn't result in a TPK.

After you see Black Tentacles come out for the 2nd or 3rd time, you should know that by level 7 you need an answer to that problem. Most probably won't reach that point until their 2nd or 3rd level 7 character.

[Cartigan]

Black Tentacles only does 1d6+4 if you are grappled. If you escape or it fails to grapple you, you don't take damage. It's a good hindrance, but it's not Ice Storm or Fireball.

How about I summon 1d4+1 Giant Frogs or 1d3 Constrictor Snakes?

[Fergie]

I think Black Tentacles has potential for abuse, but it requires several factors to all come together in order to be effective. It will shine against masses of physically weaker creatures, but be fairly useless against brutes - sounds like half the other spells in the book...).

I think the issue here is that BT is an action denial spell. While not as utterly devastating as being dominated or held, it operates outside the normal SR/saves/touch AC system, and thus can be viewed as more effective in some cases. What also makes BT special is that the important aspects of the spell are based off of caster level, not Int/Cha, so scrolls and wands can be as effective as you are willing to pay for them to be. On the other hand, there is almost no ways to "twink" the power of BT with feats, class abilities, etc. etc. It starts fairly strong, but this one does not go to 11.

In 3.5 BT was OK when you first got it, then just got down right bad. Solid fog was the super lock-down spell of choice. BT seems about right to me now, but solid fog needs serious help (it's not even dismissible)! I think a min-maxed caster is better off with other spells, but BT is good for other types of casters.

I also have a question about the descriptive text of the spell:
"This spell causes a field of rubbery black tentacles to appear, burrowing up from the floor and reaching for any creature in the area."
but the area is listed as a 20' radius spread...

Can the spell be cast at a floating point in space? Does it create a sphere or a hemisphere?

[cranewings]

wraithstrike wrote:

Hama wrote:

cranewings wrote:

I basically just ban any spell treantmonk highlights in blue. Haste, sleet storm, black tentacles, color spray... They all stink of cheese.

I don't get why haste, but what is wrong with spells that hamper characters? Because they can be used on pcs? So?

Cranewings has a different view of the game than most of the rest of us is all. He has a few threads around here. Those would illustrate the point better than I can.

Some would say my understanding of the game is "special." (;

[Ravingdork]

Do the tentacles (an other grappling spells) gain the additional +5 grapple bonus on every grapple check after the first successful one, like really grapplers get?

Furthermore, when determining the scape DC (10 + CMB if I'm not mistaken) to escape, does one add this same +5 bonus*?

* This question applies to all grapple spells, not just Black Tentacles.

[Fergie]

Ravingdork wrote:

Do the tentacles (an other grappling spells) gain the additional +5 grapple bonus on every grapple check after the first successful one, like really grapplers get?

Furthermore, when determining the scape DC (10 + CMB if I'm not mistaken) to escape, does one add this same +5 bonus*?

* This question applies to all grapple spells, not just Black Tentacles.

PRD: "If the tentacles succeed in grappling a foe, that foe takes 1d6+4 points of damage and gains the grappled condition. Grappled opponents cannot move without first breaking the grapple. All other movement is prohibited unless the creature breaks the grapple first. The black tentacles spell receives a +5 bonus on grapple checks made against opponents it is already grappling, but cannot move foes or pin foes. Each round that black tentacles succeeds on a grapple check, it deals an additional 1d6+4 points of damage. The CMD of black tentacles, for the purposes of escaping the grapple, is equal to 10 + its CMB."

Seem like they do.

[Ravingdork]

Fergie wrote:

Ravingdork wrote:

Do the tentacles (an other grappling spells) gain the additional +5 grapple bonus on every grapple check after the first successful one, like really grapplers get?

Furthermore, when determining the scape DC (10 + CMB if I'm not mistaken) to escape, does one add this same +5 bonus*?

* This question applies to all grapple spells, not just Black Tentacles.

PRD: "If the tentacles succeed in grappling a foe, that foe takes 1d6+4 points of damage and gains the grappled condition. Grappled opponents cannot move without first breaking the grapple. All other movement is prohibited unless the creature breaks the grapple first. The black tentacles spell receives a +5 bonus on grapple checks made against opponents it is already grappling, but cannot move foes or pin foes. Each round that black tentacles succeeds on a grapple check, it deals an additional 1d6+4 points of damage. The CMD of black tentacles, for the purposes of escaping the grapple, is equal to 10 + its CMB."

Seem like they do.

Huh. I'm so used to OTHER spells NOT having that kind of info in them, I just assumed Black Tentacles didn't either.

What I get for not looking prior to posting. XD

[Red-Assassin]

I don't think black tentacles is overpowered for a player, but is overpowered for a caster cr+3 boss. Sure some classes are better against it but allot of classes will suffer, and then there can be allot of pc death. I also am not sure how the burst bonds work on this spell.

[Mike Schneider]

I think CR+3 boss ogres with greataxes are overpowered at AP4.

"Sure some classes are better against it but allot of classes will suffer, and then there can be allot of pc death".

;-)

[Cartigan]

Red-Assassin wrote:

I don't think black tentacles is overpowered for a player, but is overpowered for a caster cr+3 boss. Sure some classes are better against it but allot of classes will suffer, and then there can be allot of pc death. I also am not sure how the burst bonds work on this spell.

What ISN'T overpowered for a CR+3 boss?

[Revan]

Cartigan wrote:

Red-Assassin wrote:

I don't think black tentacles is overpowered for a player, but is overpowered for a caster cr+3 boss. Sure some classes are better against it but allot of classes will suffer, and then there can be allot of pc death. I also am not sure how the burst bonds work on this spell.

What ISN'T overpowered for a CR+3 boss?

Bard with no allies? Lone Cavalier in a room too small to accommodate his mount?

[TriOmegaZero]

I thought the very definition of 'CR+3' is overpowered. If CR+3 were no different than equal CR, it wouldn't be CR+3.

[Callarek]

Revan wrote:

Cartigan wrote:

Red-Assassin wrote:

I don't think black tentacles is overpowered for a player, but is overpowered for a caster cr+3 boss. Sure some classes are better against it but allot of classes will suffer, and then there can be allot of pc death. I also am not sure how the burst bonds work on this spell.

What ISN'T overpowered for a CR+3 boss?

Bard with no allies? Lone Cavalier in a room too small to accommodate his mount?

Charm Person becomes a Save or Suck spell, especially if the Bard has more castings of it available than there are PCs, just in case the PCs get a lucky save. And there is an obstacle making it difficult to get at the Bard before he starts spamming it. :( DC 16 (Cha 18, 1st level spell, Spell Focus) is just ugly at first level.

And the Cavalier probably has enough AC, and can easily position himself, so as to avoid sneak attack damage. Grinds are bad at any level, IMO.

There is a CR3 monster out there with Inflict Serious Wounds as a spell-like ability. At CR+2, that is still likely to spell dead dead for a 1st level PC...

[Cartigan]

Revan wrote:

Cartigan wrote:

Red-Assassin wrote:

I don't think black tentacles is overpowered for a player, but is overpowered for a caster cr+3 boss. Sure some classes are better against it but allot of classes will suffer, and then there can be allot of pc death. I also am not sure how the burst bonds work on this spell.

What ISN'T overpowered for a CR+3 boss?

Bard with no allies?

Summon Monster? Hideous Laughter? Charm? Dominate? Glitterdust? Grease?

Quote:

Lone Cavalier in a room too small to accommodate his mount?

A Giant Cavalier with a lance and focused on doing a ton of damage. Same as a Fighter or Barbarian or any melee character

[Red-Assassin]

All expamples are easy compared to BT. CR+3 is hard encounter. So consider spells with a high dc.

In my order from weak to strong. Some of the spells are good for players, I would hate to use these as a single "boss" style encounter.

Summon Monster, weak many, many, many weaknesses for the boss. Casting time, dipel, prot evil.

Hideous Laughter, charm, dominate, single target for non combat these can be good.
Grease this is a good choice, small area
Glitterdust better choice.