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I've got a pet theory on the Test of the Starstone, what I'll probably use in my campaign.
But I have some questions about it: How did Arazni become a demigod and then lose that status? Why did Iomedae take the Test?
In any case, here's the theory:
You can't want to become a god and become a god. Apotheosis requires a subsumation of a portfolio, and everything you want, are, and represent must be true to that portfolio ideal. Any desire or path that is different from that ruins the process. You can't be a god and want to become a god.
Therefore, only those people who haven't wanted to become a god have been successful. In fact, becoming a god only really works if nothing about you changes. Aroden wanted to save humanity, and only became a god as a side effect. Cayden Cailean didn't know what he was doing and hasn't changed one bit. Norgorber, who tries desperately to suppress knowledge about himself, wanted and wants only self-negation. As for Iomedae... I suspect she didn't want to become a god as much as she wanted to represent that ideal for Aroden.
Creative Director
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I've got a pet theory on the Test of the Starstone, what I'll probably use in my campaign.
But I have some questions about it: How did Arazni become a demigod and then lose that status? Why did Iomedae take the Test?
In any case, here's the theory:
** spoiler omitted **
Arazni became a demigod by being granted that power by Aroden, more or less. It was kind of an unprecedented move by the divine... it didn't end up so well for Arazni, in any case—it's certainly not something we've really detailed yet.
Irori's another human who didn't use the Starstone to become a deity.
The Starstone is one way... the most well-known way for sure... to become a deity. It's not the only way. And until we get around to looking at post-20th level play rules, I doubt we'll really start looking at exact rules methods by which one can explain how mortals become gods and goddesses.
Ooh, so that means, in theory... Razmir might still ascend. Neat.
I can't imagine that Razmir would be too pleased to see PCs make it while he tries to pull it off and fails. He makes an obvious adversary - either because it's personal or because he'd love to pick though their brains (literally)- for nearly-divine PCs.
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Ooh, so that means, in theory... Razmir might still ascend. Neat.I can't imagine that Razmir would be too pleased to see PCs make it while he tries to pull it off and fails. He makes an obvious adversary - either because it's personal or because he'd love to pick though their brains (literally)- for nearly-divine PCs.
I think it would be a great twist if he did become a deity. Or maybe a lich.
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I think it would be a great twist if he did become a deity. Or maybe a lich.Ooh, so that means, in theory... Razmir might still ascend. Neat.I can't imagine that Razmir would be too pleased to see PCs make it while he tries to pull it off and fails. He makes an obvious adversary - either because it's personal or because he'd love to pick though their brains (literally)- for nearly-divine PCs.
Or a deity THEN a lich, like Arazni.
Or a lich THEN a deity, like Vecna.
I don't think Golarion has a lich turned deity, does it? That I might like to see, Razmir, fearing death, figuring out how to become undead, and then succeeding in apotheosis. I'd want it done in a decidedly non-Vecna way, but it would make for an awesome AP.
I might just have to run that campaign.
I don't think Golarion has a lich turned deity, does it?
No, but it does have Urgathoa, who became a deity by being hte first mortal who turned up in the boneyard, said "Screw death" and walked off, thus becoming the first undead anythng.
I've got a pet theory on the Test of the Starstone, what I'll probably use in my campaign.
But I have some questions about it: How did Arazni become a demigod and then lose that status? Why did Iomedae take the Test?
In any case, here's the theory:
** spoiler omitted **
The outlines for a pc test of high sorcery from dragonlance should give you some fairly good ideas for how to structure a Test of the Starstone.
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I don't think Golarion has a lich turned deity, does it?No, but it does have Urgathoa, who became a deity by being hte first mortal who turned up in the boneyard, said "Screw death" and walked off, thus becoming the first undead anythng.
Dang those days when it was so easy to become a god! "I died first!" "I made a thing!" "I just pooped!" BLAM Divinity.
Dang those days when it was so easy to become a god! "I died first!" "I made a thing!" "I just pooped!" BLAM Divinity.I don't think Golarion has a lich turned deity, does it?No, but it does have Urgathoa, who became a deity by being hte first mortal who turned up in the boneyard, said "Screw death" and walked off, thus becoming the first undead anythng.
Heh. The God Yama (in India-- and China and Japan under variant names) was just the first man to die. He's the god of the dead (not of Death, though, since that obviously preceded him). The idea's quite old for that sort of thing.
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On the topic of Razmir, I get the impression he's not even epic level. Sure, he essentially destroyed a city - but what 20th-level sorcerer can't do that (and I doubt he's even 20th-level). I think Razmir is a paper tiger who's managed to wow the common man. He's nothing special.
I bet Urgathoa was just the hireling torchbearer for the first adventuring party ever, and that's how she died first. By a kobold. Or a housecat.
Apothesis is dangerous business...For what it's worth i've some thoughts on the idea, but i'll stick 'em in a spoiler thingie.
My best guess? you have to be true to yourself. sounds hokey, right? but think about it - you have to really know what it is you stand for...no self doubt, no recriminations. you have to understand your true nature and be confident in and of yourself so much that you aren't afraid to see that inner core expand and grow to godhood. And you have to know that you really understand yourself and aren't just being arrogant about or you'll fail. that's some pretty scary stuff right there. most people spend their entire lives running away from who and what they are. to confront that inner self and master it can take a lifetime in and of itself. But to master it and then try to take it one step further into the realm of the divine? THAT'S even more rare!
On the topic of Razmir, I get the impression he's not even epic level. Sure, he essentially destroyed a city - but what 20th-level sorcerer can't do that (and I doubt he's even 20th-level). I think Razmir is a paper tiger who's managed to wow the common man. He's nothing special.
I've always wondered why some of the actual gods didn't come along and b+@*~ slap old Razzie in front of the masses.
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Creative Director
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On the topic of Razmir, I get the impression he's not even epic level. Sure, he essentially destroyed a city - but what 20th-level sorcerer can't do that (and I doubt he's even 20th-level). I think Razmir is a paper tiger who's managed to wow the common man. He's nothing special.
Razmir is...
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Creative Director
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On the topic of Razmir, I get the impression he's not even epic level. Sure, he essentially destroyed a city - but what 20th-level sorcerer can't do that (and I doubt he's even 20th-level). I think Razmir is a paper tiger who's managed to wow the common man. He's nothing special.I've always wondered why some of the actual gods didn't come along and b+@*& slap old Razzie in front of the masses.
That's not for the gods to do. They don't meddle like that.
That's not for the gods to do. They don't meddle like that.On the topic of Razmir, I get the impression he's not even epic level. Sure, he essentially destroyed a city - but what 20th-level sorcerer can't do that (and I doubt he's even 20th-level). I think Razmir is a paper tiger who's managed to wow the common man. He's nothing special.I've always wondered why some of the actual gods didn't come along and b+@*& slap old Razzie in front of the masses.
ok, maybe not directly...but a high ranking cleric could rock old razzies world.
RPG Superstar 2009 Top 32, 2010 Top 8
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ok, maybe not directly...but a high ranking cleric could rock old razzies world.That's not for the gods to do. They don't meddle like that.On the topic of Razmir, I get the impression he's not even epic level. Sure, he essentially destroyed a city - but what 20th-level sorcerer can't do that (and I doubt he's even 20th-level). I think Razmir is a paper tiger who's managed to wow the common man. He's nothing special.I've always wondered why some of the actual gods didn't come along and b+@*& slap old Razzie in front of the masses.
And end up getting worshipped himself. :-)
Besides, these are things for the PCs to do. One of the misimpressions of the Forgotten Realms (pre-nuking) was that Elmisnter/Khelben/Manshoon, etc were the ones doing all of these things. Do we really want to read about NPCs taking down Razmir, or do we want to do it ourselves?
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Total agreement!
By "High-ranking cleric" I would define that as "PCs". Honestly, one of the things I've liked about Golarion so far is that the landscape hasn't been tossed to and fro by a metaplot, especially a metaplot filled with NPCs. It's big enough that you can have many things, many big things, happen all over the place, but the basic ideas in the world guide haven't changed and are still valid for a GM.
By placing the onus on the PCs to change the world, adventure abounds and the GM's job is easier. I heartily approve.
And I might still run a campaign of Razmir's attempted apotheosis.
Total agreement!
By "High-ranking cleric" I would define that as "PCs". Honestly, one of the things I've liked about Golarion so far is that the landscape hasn't been tossed to and fro by a metaplot, especially a metaplot filled with NPCs. It's big enough that you can have many things, many big things, happen all over the place, but the basic ideas in the world guide haven't changed and are still valid for a GM.
By placing the onus on the PCs to change the world, adventure abounds and the GM's job is easier. I heartily approve.
And I might still run a campaign of Razmir's attempted apotheosis.
/agree
Any time you look at something in Golarion and think "Why hasn't somebody done something about this?" you're finding an adventure seed.
Arazni became a demigod by being granted that power by Aroden, more or less. It was kind of an unprecedented move by the divine...
And they sentenced him to death for it! THERE IT IS!
I figured out the whole Death of Aroden thing!
I'm gonna be rich and famous!
Is it still a mystery how exactly Aroden died? I just bought the Inner Sea book and it seems to hedge on the details...did I just miss it, or is this A Great Unknown?
-Marsh
I don't think anyone has actually explained the details. And we might not ever really know for sure.
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Creative Director
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Is it still a mystery how exactly Aroden died? I just bought the Inner Sea book and it seems to hedge on the details...did I just miss it, or is this A Great Unknown?
-Marsh
Aroden's death is one of several great mysteries of the setting that we have no plans to ever reveal more details about. It's not meant to be something that has an answer—it's meant to be one of the fundamental backbones of the campaign setting's themes. (Which is not to say WE don't know what happened to him, of course!)
Any time you look at something in Golarion and think "Why hasn't somebody done something about this?" you're finding an adventure seed.We should put this at the top of every thread that talks about Golarion.
ya know...after I finish up the Kingmaker AP, the players will be nearly 20th level AND have an army at their disposal....
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ya know...after I finish up the Kingmaker AP, the players will be nearly 20th level AND have an army at their disposal....Any time you look at something in Golarion and think "Why hasn't somebody done something about this?" you're finding an adventure seed.We should put this at the top of every thread that talks about Golarion.
In this corner: the PCs, Monarchs of the Stolen Lands.
In that corner: Razmiran.
In the middle: All the River Kingdoms.
Start that battle, and...
Start a new campaign. You're all first level peons somewhere in the River Kingdoms. Two major clashing powers have decided to make your front yard their battleground. Enjoy.
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Is it still a mystery how exactly Aroden died? I just bought the Inner Sea book and it seems to hedge on the details...did I just miss it, or is this A Great Unknown?
-Marsh
The death of Aroden remains as perhaps THE central mystery of Golarion. No one is sure how he died or why he died. This gives GMs the freedom to explore this issue in their campaigns.
We do know that many prophecies since Aroden's death have failed, so a byproduct or an intended consequence of his death is perhaps to free up mortals to make their own future. There are some good threads on the death of Aroden in this forum.
For myself, I tend to lean towards an explanation that Aroden sacrificed himself for some cause -- whether he was successful or not remains to be seen. (It makes his death more meaningful, and gives a lot of potential to plot threads.)
Aroden's death is one of several great mysteries of the setting that we have no plans to ever reveal more details about. It's not meant to be something that has an answer—it's meant to be one of the fundamental backbones of the campaign setting's themes. (Which is not to say WE don't know what happened to him, of course!)
But my guess was still right, right? I understand that you can't outright answer it, so give me a secret sign.
Let's say that if I was correct, post something on the boards with an avatar picture of a dinosaur. Pick a dino, and it doesn't have to be the whole lizard.
ya know...after I finish up the Kingmaker AP, the players will be nearly 20th level AND have an army at their disposal....Any time you look at something in Golarion and think "Why hasn't somebody done something about this?" you're finding an adventure seed.We should put this at the top of every thread that talks about Golarion.In this corner: the PCs, Monarchs of the Stolen Lands.
In that corner: Razmiran.
In the middle: All the River Kingdoms.
Start that battle, and...
Start a new campaign. You're all first level peons somewhere in the River Kingdoms. Two major clashing powers have decided to make your front yard their battleground. Enjoy.
You'd take away the players' high-level toys after spend years and years in-game to get that far? That's rotten!
On the topic of Razmir, I get the impression he's not even epic level. Sure, he essentially destroyed a city - but what 20th-level sorcerer can't do that (and I doubt he's even 20th-level). I think Razmir is a paper tiger who's managed to wow the common man. He's nothing special.Razmir is...** spoiler omitted **
But, but... Expert 20, focusing on Bluff and Sleight Of Hands?!
"-So you're telling me... this whole time... this whole trial, I've been fooled... I've been fooled by someone... by someone with...
-By someone with an NPC class, I am afraid so.
-I feel dirty inside."
You'd take away the players' high-level toys after spend years and years in-game to get that far? That's rotten!ya know...after I finish up the Kingmaker AP, the players will be nearly 20th level AND have an army at their disposal....Any time you look at something in Golarion and think "Why hasn't somebody done something about this?" you're finding an adventure seed.We should put this at the top of every thread that talks about Golarion.In this corner: the PCs, Monarchs of the Stolen Lands.
In that corner: Razmiran.
In the middle: All the River Kingdoms.
Start that battle, and...
Start a new campaign. You're all first level peons somewhere in the River Kingdoms. Two major clashing powers have decided to make your front yard their battleground. Enjoy.
Oh hells no! if my players survive to the end of the Kingmaker AP and want to kick start a war, i'm gonna let 'em do it. AND we'll fight it out to the bitter end.
Personally I think they're gonna invade Brevoy once they get to that point, but it's too early to say.
Aroden's death is one of several great mysteries of the setting that we have no plans to ever reveal more details about. It's not meant to be something that has an answer—it's meant to be one of the fundamental backbones of the campaign setting's themes. (Which is not to say WE don't know what happened to him, of course!)Is it still a mystery how exactly Aroden died? I just bought the Inner Sea book and it seems to hedge on the details...did I just miss it, or is this A Great Unknown?
-Marsh
I would like to know, but I understand it would change the campaign if anyone knew, plus it gives me the chance to make up my own reason.
You probably been asked this before but I can not find it. What domains and ares of concern(Ideals) did Aroden cover. I am guessing prophecy was one. Destiny was probably another.
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You probably been asked this before but I can not find it. What domains and ares of concern(Ideals) did Aroden cover. I am guessing prophecy was one. Destiny was probably another.
In the original PF Campaign Setting, he's the LN god of human culture, innovation and history, with the Domains of Community, Glory, Knowledge, Law and Protection, and favored weapon - longsword.
Other details of his clergy and their dress, etc. can be found on p. 170.
You probably been asked this before but I can not find it. What domains and ares of concern(Ideals) did Aroden cover. I am guessing prophecy was one. Destiny was probably another.
In the original PF Campaign Setting, he's the LN god of human culture, innovation and history, with the Domains of Community, Glory, Knowledge, Law and Protection, and favored weapon - longsword.
Other details of his clergy and their dress, etc. can be found on p. 170.
Thanks. I will probably say the other deities aligned against him. The deities of the other races saw humanity's golden age as a threat to their own races, and the evil deities saw it as a great threat to their own plans. Aroden being LN, as opposed to LG might have overlooked the affect the human golden age had on other races.
Another possible theory is that the golden age was brought about by not so good means which benefitted one race a lot more than anyone else.I will probably have a campaign based around investigation of the issue with the goal of bring him back. Since the window for the golden age to begin had a limited time frame the other deites don't care if he comes back.
PS:Maybe find "sleeping" Azlantis was a part of the new golden age that never happened.
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I don't think Golarion has a lich turned deity, does it?No, but it does have Urgathoa, who became a deity by being hte first mortal who turned up in the boneyard, said "Screw death" and walked off, thus becoming the first undead anythng.
And while he's not quite a deity, can't Tar-Baphon grant spells like a Demon Lord or Empyreal Doohickey?
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Creative Director
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And while he's not quite a deity, can't Tar-Baphon grant spells like a Demon Lord or Empyreal Doohickey?I don't think Golarion has a lich turned deity, does it?No, but it does have Urgathoa, who became a deity by being hte first mortal who turned up in the boneyard, said "Screw death" and walked off, thus becoming the first undead anythng.
He cannot. At least, he can't yet.
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I bet Urgathoa was just the hireling torchbearer for the first adventuring party ever, and that's how she died first. By a kobold. Or a
Just so we're clear, Urgathoa wasn't the first to die, she was just the first to, AFTER dying, say "f%@* it, I ain't going anywhere" and refuse to go to the Boneyard.
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Just so we're clear, Urgathoa wasn't the first to die, she was just the first to, AFTER dying, say "f~+~ it, I ain't going anywhere" and refuse to go to the Boneyard.I bet Urgathoa was just the hireling torchbearer for the first adventuring party ever, and that's how she died first. By a kobold. Or a
Bah, I prefer my version. Gives henchmen something to live, er, die for.
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Thanks. I will probably say the other deities aligned against him. The deities of the other races saw humanity's golden age as a threat to their own races, and the evil deities saw it as a great threat to their own plans. Aroden being LN, as opposed to LG might have overlooked the affect the human golden age had on other races.
Another possible theory is that the golden age was brought about by not so good means which benefitted one race a lot more than anyone else.I will probably have a campaign based around investigation of the issue with the goal of bring him back. Since the window for the golden age to begin had a limited time frame the other deites don't care if he comes back.
PS:Maybe find "sleeping" Azlantis was a part of the new golden age that never happened.
Want a scary thought ?
Aroden's death was the ultimate requirement to bring about the Golden Age.
Yes, that's right. We are currently in THE Golden Age of Golarion. Enjoy
Thanks. I will probably say the other deities aligned against him. The deities of the other races saw humanity's golden age as a threat to their own races, and the evil deities saw it as a great threat to their own plans. Aroden being LN, as opposed to LG might have overlooked the affect the human golden age had on other races.
Another possible theory is that the golden age was brought about by not so good means which benefitted one race a lot more than anyone else.I will probably have a campaign based around investigation of the issue with the goal of bring him back. Since the window for the golden age to begin had a limited time frame the other deites don't care if he comes back.
PS:Maybe find "sleeping" Azlantis was a part of the new golden age that never happened.
Want a scary thought ?
Aroden's death was the ultimate requirement to bring about the Golden Age.
Yes, that's right. We are currently in THE Golden Age of Golarion. Enjoy
As a PC with all of these AP's threatening to destroy the world/nations Aroden lied if he said there was a Golden Age. I would probably bring him back to life to find out why he lied, and then kill him again.
PC(@ Aroden as he strikes him down):Next time there better be a "real" golden age punk.
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As a PC with all of these AP's threatening to destroy the world/nations Aroden lied if he said there was a Golden Age. I would probably bring him back to life to find out why he lied, and then kill him again.
PC(@ Aroden as he strikes him down):Next time there better be a "real" golden age punk.
As Aroden dies again, he looks you in the eye and says, "Dude, you just raised a god back to life and killed him again. Golden Age, dude. Golden Age."