Well, when I originally brought up Iori, it wasn't because I believed all VoP monks should become gods. Instead, it was to show that there is precedent of a mortal gaining power, not from magical items, but from devotion and dedication to the perfection of his mind, body, and soul. I really don't think an extra point of ki here and there reflects this sort of dedication.
My original point:
1- There are more than a few mortals in the world who have gone on to become gods. The most famous example of these are those who attained godhood via the aid of the Starstone artifact. However, other mortals, such as Iori, have obtained godhood without the aid of such artifacts. I don't view Iori as being a weaker god than the likes of Cayden or Iomedae.
2- There are more than a few mortals in the world who have gone on to become heroes. The most famous example of these are those who attained strength via the aid of powerful magical objects. However, other mortals, such as VoP monks, have attained hero-dom without the aid of such magical objects. I don't view VoP monks as being a weaker hero than those with a dozen magic objects.
Number 1 is true in Golarion. Number 2 is not. I would like to think that if the first fits into the world of Golarion, so should the second.
Edit: When I say weaker, I mean "noticeably less powerful." Everyone agrees that the VoP monk is "weaker" than a normal hero.
I think you can still choose to do that. If the DM allows 5d6 rolls for example. I'm not sure whether it should be allowed to enter play along standard characters in organised play for example.
For stats, ok.
For VoP?
I think you can still choose to do that. If the DM allows 5d6 rolls for example. I'm not sure whether it should be allowed to enter play along standard characters in organised play for example.For stats, ok.
For VoP?
And now should VoP grant godly stats? And is that enough?
I think that the benefit of items is highly situational and that the VoP would have to provide some multi-gear compensation to make it good, but not too good in low, normal and high magic setting, because unlike the items it doesn't follow WBL in any way.
I don't want godly stats. But the aforementioned character concept (at least, something similar) is not doable with the current VoP.
This is a concept that could have been done, and is not, for the sole reason that "it should not work that way".
I think that the rules *can* support playing Iori, but it's a stretch. Not a thing of the regular play and a hell of a waork for the DM.
And not a thing a regular monk may be able to do via VoP. And not a thing he should be able to do IMO. VoP could grant more, but not this much :)
VoP could grant more
This was my point. No super-duper powers, but powers.
Or, to use a comic book analogy: not everyone gets to be Batman. Sometimes, you're "just" Superman, Spider-Man, or Captain America.
Fixed for you.
Why is the concept deserving of mockery?Like Irori.I knew Irori, I worked with Irori, and you, sir, Mr. 20-Point Point Buy, are no Irori....I'm not mocking you, I'm pointing back at an old joke.
My point is: if it were easy for a gearless monk to become a god, we'd have more than one god in the Paizo campaign world who managed to do it.
Irori wasn't a standard array character.
He wasn't a 15-point-buy character.
He wasn't a 20-point-buy character.
He's the extremely lucky character who rolls really, really well, perhaps 3 or more 18s, with no "dump stats." He is the one-in-a-billion exception.He is not the standard that all gearless monks should expect to play like.
By your logic every god should be a wizard of some sort, then, seeing as how much easier it is for them to be a god :p
I just "love" how "Could we get a decent concept for playing a gear-less character, who can keep up with the rest of the group?" has been twisted around into "Oh, so you want to become a god!". Geeze.
I must admit that vow of poverty is not the best option in the world but then as with all options...you don't have to use them in your game. From what I can see so far most of the book is damn good and useable. Lets look back to the WOC 3rd ed books, how much of those were broken, overbalanced or just not useable at all? I am hoping that Pathfinder does not start to go down the route of those books but having said that with playtesting and messageboards and the pathfinder legacy of balance I cant see it happening. I for one at some point will use the duels, binding, spells, archtypes and will allow a magus in my games so thats most of the book used anyway.
Keep up the good work guys and give us more archtypes, I love them so much more than prestage classes.
I just "love" how "Could we get a decent concept for playing a gear-less character, who can keep up with the rest of the group?" has been twisted around into "Oh, so you want to become a god!". Geeze.Damn right I want to become a god! Why else would I DM?
To take part in a collective storytelling activity with rules and guidelines for characters?
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I just "love" how "Could we get a decent concept for playing a gear-less character, who can keep up with the rest of the group?" has been twisted around into "Oh, so you want to become a god!". Geeze.Damn right I want to become a god! Why else would I DM?
Why would you want to take such a big step down?
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Or, to use a comic book analogy: not everyone gets to be Batman. Sometimes, you're "just" Superman, Spider-Man, or Captain America.Fixed for you.
Just how long now has Batman been giving the GM of DC head? Cos that's the only explanation for him at this point. He's become far more ridiculous than Superman's powers, if only because writers actually hold him on the same level as Supes.
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I continue to be amused that the proof that VoP isn't that bad is to subvert it every way possible.
Ok I don't have magic items but all my gold goes to the wizard who makes a billion potions and constantly casts spells on me and gives me the potions and I have a super powerful artifact that radiates magic and I have lots of spells cast permanently on myself with all my gold and I've never given away a single coin to the poor but aren't I pure in my poverty?
+4
Nothing says you have to give your moeny to the poor. Just that you have to have very little money.
I just "love" how "Could we get a decent concept for playing a gear-less character, who can keep up with the rest of the group?" has been twisted around into "Oh, so you want to become a god!". Geeze.
I'm not the one who said, "A gearless monk should be a viable character concept at all levels, after all, Irori did it...." :)
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I just "love" how "Could we get a decent concept for playing a gear-less character, who can keep up with the rest of the group?" has been twisted around into "Oh, so you want to become a god!". Geeze.I'm not the one who said, "A gearless monk should be a viable character concept at all levels, after all, Irori did it...." :)
Irori, both before and after his ascension, stands for the assumption that a man can achieve power and greatness, make himself more than what he is through determination, training, force of will, discipline, etc.--power arising from within, not from trinkets, enchantments, or any other mystical or physical 'crutch'. My impression from the setting materials I have read is that many monasteries are dedicated to Irori, holding him up as an ideal to strive for. You've put all the flavorful bases for ascetic warriors who have forged themselves into perfect weapons, their dedication, discipline, and enlightenment making them equals of the most well-equipped soldier. The mechanics you've provided for such, however, is woefully inadequate to the task.
There should be an option to play a gearless character.
VoP should NOT be that option IMO.
The solution to gearless characters should be viable for all, not just some monkish special mojo.
Which obviously meant he wanted his monk to be a god, instead of meaning he wanted his monk to survive levels 1-20. :P
That.
Which obviously meant he wanted his monk to be a god, instead of meaning he wanted his monk to survive levels 1-20. :PThat.
To repeat my self yet again, "Just because Irori survived level 1-20 without any gear doesn't mean every character should be able to do so." Odds are, your 1st-level character isn't as good as Irori was at level 1.
*shrug* But I'm not going to convince some of you of this.
Sean the point (and I repeat myself again, too :D) is:
What if I wish to play a character with a story similar to Irori? Does the system allow it?
I was under the impression this was an Ultimate Magic forum, not a Vow of Poverty one. :)
me too, I guess we both are naive.
Well, maybe I am mistaken in my thinking, but I always envisioned Iori doing more than just "surviving" levels 1-20. I figured that Iori unlocked amazing new abilities through his dedication that allowed him to surpass others (even with full WBL) and eventually become a god. With that in mind, I thought VoP PCs should unlock decent new abilities through their dedication that allowed them to be roughly on par with others and eventually become heroes. But am I mistaken?
The way I interpreted your rankings of power is as follows:
Iori ≈ heroes with full wealth > heroes taking a vow ≈ gear-less heroes
This is the way I think it should be:
Iori > heroes with full wealth ≈ heroes taking a vow > gear-less heroes
Which obviously meant he wanted his monk to be a god, instead of meaning he wanted his monk to survive levels 1-20. :PThat.To repeat my self yet again, "Just because Irori survived level 1-20 without any gear doesn't mean every character should be able to do so." Odds are, your 1st-level character isn't as good as Irori was at level 1.
*shrug* But I'm not going to convince some of you of this.
I don't think anyone claim It must survive 1-20 levels. They simply point out it should be able to survive level 1 - 20.
The thread has become somewhat silly. People trying to point out/proving Vow of Poverty suck and you denying Vow of Poverty does suck.The Monk have problem with DR and MAD and are depended on items, Especially at higher levels. Me, I don't care. I won't play it, but I can see why people was disappointed. I think it's obvious it sucks unless you cheat and let you casters buff you constantly.
No gear = Bad AC (no bracers no wisdom bonus items), Bad Saves (no cloak), Bad stats (no dex, str, con and wis boosting items), bad attack, mad damage, bad DC to stunning fist, even more problem with DR, etc. etc. and what do they get? Some more KI points.
edit:
The monk can't even switch between weapons because he can't have weapons, only one weapon. Range attacks? forget it. One Shuriken = one missile.
Which obviously meant he wanted his monk to be a god, instead of meaning he wanted his monk to survive levels 1-20. :PThat.To repeat my self yet again, "Just because Irori survived level 1-20 without any gear doesn't mean every character should be able to do so." Odds are, your 1st-level character isn't as good as Irori was at level 1.
*shrug* But I'm not going to convince some of you of this.
It's easier to convince people of things when you don't have to constantly knock over strawmen to do it.
Edit: I mean really, someone went "Yo monks without gear should be possible, Irori did it" and your response is "SORRY BRO YOU CAN'T BE A GOD"
Really?
Monks are already the weakest class in the game. All you're doing now is rubbing some salt on the wounds.
Hey, I've just read the spell creation chapter.
While it includes some nice things, there are passages out there that burninate my brain, especially in the Benchmark Spells section. Whoever wrote that burning hands is better than sleep should, uh, get some sleep. Few weeks, maybe.
And Someone put Mind blank in 7th level section, while it's actually a 8th level spell.
Odds are that if I play a VoP monk as a loner and pick my battles, then I'll eventually survive to level 20 in spite of not being Iori :D
I can fight enemies below my CR that till grant XP, I can still do heroic things, I can help lower level parties and let them still shine. I am a NPC probably ;)
Just a curious question...
Since the adventures whether homebrew, AP or whatever are geared
for a party of a specific size (usually 4 for published), why couldn't
you use TOTAL Wealth by Level for the appropriately sized party?Just let the player's split the Vow of Poverty monk's share amongst the
other characters. Then the other members have some extra to make up for
the 'weakness' of the Vow character.Other party members might wind up with something a 'little' bit
more powerful than their level indicates but that wouldn't be Earth shattering.
The big problem with that, of course, is that it means the poor gearless character is probably falling even further behind, as he's now trying to match the effectiveness of 3-4 [i]overequipped/i]characters, instead of just fully equipped.
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All SKR essentially did is say not every (or most, or vanishingly few) Monks / PCs are god material. Or, for that matter, survivor material without extra equipment. Damn. What a shock. How horrifying. Some PCs may need their goodies to succeed.
Now, people have him rubbing salt in the wounds of (apparently every) Monk in existence and ruining their aspirations of godhood (or cruising to level 20 without gear). The game isn't designed for everybody (or even every PC) to be godlike. Or survive until level 20 without relying on something other than their own physical talents. Aspiring to perfection doesn't mean achieving it. There are other games for that...
And, reading this thread was worth it just for this:
Why would you want to take such a big step down?I just "love" how "Could we get a decent concept for playing a gear-less character, who can keep up with the rest of the group?" has been twisted around into "Oh, so you want to become a god!". Geeze.Damn right I want to become a god! Why else would I DM?
and...
*opens mouth*
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*closes mouth*
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*raises one finger*
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*puts hand down*
Just about fell off my seat laughing :D
Thank you, Paul Watson and TOZ both.
Overall I like Ultimate Magic and I think that I will be able to get a lot of use out of it. There are a few bits and pieces in there that I don't like or don't believe I will be using in my games, but most of it seems to be a nice array of options. I prefer the Advanced Player's Guide to Ultimate Magic, but I don't regret having it.
For Vow of Poverty, I doubt that I will be using it unless I was already making a character who didn't want to use a variety of magic items, in which case, I might as well take it. I'm looking at the Vow of Poverty and I don't really get the desire to make a character just to use it.
The character still would be underpowered and I would say that it would take a significant amount of effort by other party members to allow the vow of poverty monk to continue contributing to the adventures. It really isn't an option that I like*, but I do understand the way it was handled. It was only a single item in the short section for monks and I do feel that eschewing most magical items should be a significant penalty that isn't easily negated.
However, I still want to see an option/subsystem in Pathfinder that would allow for characters to operate without collecting the wide variety of gear that Pathfinder generally requires. Barbarians with a single magic item, wizards without headbands of intellect on their heads 24/7, and viable monks who need magical items. I would like my characters to look more like the iconic pictures. Armed with magical items, but not covered in them. Other people have asked for a Pathfinder Treasury book and, if it does happen, this is one thing I would like to be covered. It is one thing that I've wished for as an option in running some games.
* I like GM adjudication for some things, but this feels a bit too open to what the intent is for how valuable your valuable item is. I'm also not sure why the ability to take vow removes the still mind ability, the vows seem costly enough without that additional cost.
Which obviously meant he wanted his monk to be a god, instead of meaning he wanted his monk to survive levels 1-20. :PThat.To repeat my self yet again, "Just because Irori survived level 1-20 without any gear doesn't mean every character should be able to do so." Odds are, your 1st-level character isn't as good as Irori was at level 1.
*shrug* But I'm not going to convince some of you of this.
It's easier to convince people of things when you don't have to constantly knock over strawmen to do it.
Edit: I mean really, someone went "Yo monks without gear should be possible, Irori did it" and your response is "SORRY BRO YOU CAN'T BE A GOD"
Really?
Monks are already the weakest class in the game. All you're doing now is rubbing some salt on the wounds.
Stop making me agree with you! :p
... I'm also not sure why the ability to take vow removes the still mind ability, the vows seem costly enough without that additional cost.
Most vows have mainly RP costs and you can take more than one. For +2 vs. enchantments there can be a lot of ki points to be had IMO.
I think we should raise hell about a mechanical option which is cripplingly handicapping. I think we should raise hell about mechanical options that are brokenly powerful. That's called constructive criticism, and it's how people are able to learn from their mistakes.
"Don't like, don't use?" That's inane. The reason I dislike it is because I think the design philosophy that would inspire something like this is fundamentally flawed, and I want those flaws aired, so they can be avoided in the future, if not fixed in the present. If I find rotten produce at the grocery store, I'm not going to settle for not buying it--I'm going to tell people that it's rotten.
And I absolutely think 100% balance is not too much to ask for as the goal. I know that it won't be achieved, because nobody's perfect. But striving to maximize balance is a good goal.
Hell yes +1+1+1+1+1+1+1+1+BIG HUGE ONE
I don't get how bent out of shape people are getting over 4 sentences in a 256 page book. I understand people's desires for a gearless monk, but it really too far from the baseline of Pathfinder to be a core option. If you want something like this, work with your GM. I suggest checking out Iron Heroes for some good ideas on how to make a no magic item class that shines.
Again with the Monk conspiracy: I just found that Qinggongs cannot get Greater Trip through ki points.
Greater Bull Rush (2 ki points)
Greater Disarm (2 ki points)
Greater Feint (2 ki points)
Greater Sunder (2 ki points)
But not greater trip. This is fun because in core you cannot because int 13 is too much for a monk, and he has not access to "greater" maneuver feats through bonus feats; in UM, this has not just been added.
WHY?
I understand people's desires for a gearless monk, but it really too far from the baseline of Pathfinder to be a core option.
What? How does this statement make any sense? If D&D 3.5 was able to come up with a concept which worked at least somewhat decently within the WBL guidelines, how could this not work within Pathfinder?
I understand people's desires for a gearless monk, but it really too far from the baseline of Pathfinder to be a core option.What? How does this statement make any sense? If D&D 3.5 was able to come up with a concept which worked at least somewhat decently within the WBL guidelines, how could this not work within Pathfinder?
Primarily because it didn't.
Primarily because it didn't.I understand people's desires for a gearless monk, but it really too far from the baseline of Pathfinder to be a core option.What? How does this statement make any sense? If D&D 3.5 was able to come up with a concept which worked at least somewhat decently within the WBL guidelines, how could this not work within Pathfinder?
Which is why I said that it worked "somewhat decently". Now, you can try to nitpick all the details why it had flaws ( Too many bonus exalted feats, doesn't work with campaigns which don't use WBL, no way to account for flying opponents, etc. ), but the bare bones were there and it could be made to work quite well. Which makes a statement that this could not be made to work in Pathfinder farcical.
Why do people want to play a gearless monk? Because it is cool? Because in their head is the image of an ascetic warrior who shuns the material layers of the world and still kicks ass more royally then any other? In this case Pathfinder's VoP is not a suitable vehicle for their fantasies.
For those people that take the vow of poverty because they want to play a character without (nearly) any possessions, the vow works admirably well.
Any number of optimizers can come up with ways to make a playable monk of the vow of poverty - if need be by taking a level in sorcerer or some other class that can carry some of the load of the gearless monk.