I believe the forums have had enough of the "my edition is better than your edition" discussions. Please stop with posts along these line.
I liked a lot of the stuff.Sure, there were Realms-Shaking Events, but that's not necessarily bad.
The problem was that they kept increasing the frequency of RSE during the end there. While no change is bad, no stability isn't good, either.
It's bad when a lot of old-school players complain about them apparently. From my perspective, not too many people were keen on the Time of Troubles or the other events that brought AD&D's changes into 3E. You then have 1 more "major" RSE with the Return of Shade which is yet another change a good size of the community didn't like. The event tied into Shar, which (yet again) people were already sick of for some apparent reason. Lets face it, RSEs are sort of the Forgotten Realm's thing. It's what happens every so many years (which often coincide with an edition change). The only difference is that people went along with the changes grudgingly until now.
Of course, the large divide with the edition change didn't help matters which help further fuel the angst between Pro- and anti-4E FR. *sigh* well you can't win them all.
It became increasingly obvious that the people they had couldn't write a story and make it exciting without the whole multiverse hanging in the balance. That was disturbing.Then RSE went from "Realms-Shaking Event" to "Realms-Shattering Event." The writing quality plummeted (clashes of gods should not read like rejected screenplays for soap operas), and it became clear that a lot of the changes were only made to accommodate the new rules, which is bad design.
While I agree that the stories became a bit "over the top", there were others that mainly dealt with smaller areas of Faerûn. Stories that didn't have the whole fate of the world in balance. Those were the really good ones IMO. But I'm of the opinion that the clashes of the deities were not need to usher any new Rule changes. All of that is just Fluff from a game standpoint and it's alteration wasn't needed to introduce the new rule-set.
They did not only change stuff that lots of fans really liked, they mass-murdered fans' favourites. And that's why a lot of fans are now making regular payments to Paizo instead of buying wotc crap. Well, that and the mess they made with the 4e rules.I know that's why I switched to Pathfinder. I like the changes they did to 3e. Because they were good changes as opposed to the crappy changes.
I'm taking this point of yours to be your opinion, which is perfectly fine. I've come to really enjoy Pathfinder's rendition of the v3.5 rule set. It's changes, while not addressing the major issues with the edition as a whole, make it far more viable and fun at the table than original v3.5/3E. Still, I feel the glaring signs haven't been totally resolved and my Money goes to WotC's 4E as the play style and feel is more to my liking. Besides, with Paizo's awesome SRD I can really have my cake and eat it too. To tie this into the Realms...yes, certain "sacred cows" needed to be slaughtered to make the setting a bit more appealing to those not familiar with the celebs of Realm-space. This included Mystra (somthing I'm still agasint), Elistraee, Tyr and Helm, The Chosen, The Blackstaff (though I heard the novel was great), the nations I mentioned earlier, and then the 100 year jump. This was done to provide a "buffer" zone for authors so they could write in the history of Faerûn without stepping on Canon's toes more or less.
So I won't suffer someone who can't even tell apart "your" and "you're" playing psychologist and diagnosing people with "Fear of Change" so he can feel superior and act all condescending on them.
This actually made me laugh out loud, so I have to thank you for that. But please accept my sincerest apologies for the bad grammar. That will teach me a lesson not to use one's cell phone to communicate on a message forum or to reply with haste and a push-pad :). As for diagnosing people, I only comment on what I've based from my own perspective of the situation. People, more specifically Realms fans, have a large distaste for changes to the Realms. Note that I said "people are often naturally opposed to change" not Fearful of it. If someone feels things are great, why fix it if it isn't broken?
But apparently others felt different. There were the ones who disliked the large amount of epic NPCs, the feeling of "High Magic", and endless amount of deities that the Realms seemed to possess. These beliefs are just as legit as people saying there isn't a problem in the world. Neither belief is wrong or right, but different. So WotC felt it would appeal to a broader market to ease up what was perceived as a lore-required and intensive setting. They had hoped the current fan-base would look at the drastic changes and embrace them (as I have) or at worse, ignore them (as people have done in the past) and go about their merry way.
To be fair they were guilty of this pre-4E too, I mean they pushed Greyhawk as the default setting then tossed that out the window when FR and later Eberron became popular. Not sure why they are not at least supporting 4E FR more. To be honest Wotc business decisions as of late are confusing to me at least.
I'm not sure if you're aware of the support the Realms has received since it's initial debut about three years ago, but they've been getting some good print time in DDi since then. Ed Greenwood has a monthly column dedicated to straight Realms-lore and ever month or three theres an article detailing specific people, places, magic items, adventures that all have to do with the Realms.
In addition to that, the Living Forgotten Realms adventures have been made available for the public (thats if you have a DDI account) so thats like 10-15 adventures right there that are considered "official" to the Realms.
Also, early 4th quarter this year WotC is publishing a campaign setting called Neverwinter which coincides with R.A. Salvatore's book and the new Neverwinter Video game that debut around the same time. So while it might not seem like FR is getting a nod as the Flagship setting of 4E, it really is getting loads of support in other ways. This I think bodes well for the setting as a whole.
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The writing quality plummeted (clashes of gods should not read like rejected screenplays for soap operas)
Are we reading the same setting? Because FR has since the dawn of time been nothing but awful soap operas between deities and equally bad writing.
For crying out loud the introduction to Elminster was him turning into a woman, feeling him/herself up, and then banging the goddess of magic.
Honestly the vast majority of complaints towards FR4e seem to be "Forgotten Realms is being Forgotten Realms." Awful god interplay? Check! Mary Sue NPCs killing other Mary Sue NPCs? Check! Setting being overhauled yet again from yet another gods-driven disaster? Check! Races and classes being inserted and taken out willy nilly? Check!
None of that is unique to 4e's FR. That's just what FR is.
The writing quality plummeted (clashes of gods should not read like rejected screenplays for soap operas)Are we reading the same setting? Because FR has since the dawn of time been nothing but awful soap operas between deities and equally bad writing.
For crying out loud the introduction to Elminster was him turning into a woman, feeling him/herself up, and then banging the goddess of magic.
Honestly the vast majority of complaints towards FR4e seem to be "Forgotten Realms is being Forgotten Realms." Awful god interplay? Check! Mary Sue NPCs killing other Mary Sue NPCs? Check! Setting being overhauled yet again from yet another gods-driven disaster? Check! Races and classes being inserted and taken out willy nilly? Check!
None of that is unique to 4e's FR. That's just what FR is.
I'd say "advancing the setting 100 years and killing off tons of beloved NPC's" is one of most important complaints. Of course it's pretty useless to tell that to a person who thinks the Realms were just "rejected screenplays for soap operas". Tastes differ.
The writing quality plummeted (clashes of gods should not read like rejected screenplays for soap operas)Are we reading the same setting? Because FR has since the dawn of time been nothing but awful soap operas between deities and equally bad writing.
For crying out loud the introduction to Elminster was him turning into a woman, feeling him/herself up, and then banging the goddess of magic.
Honestly the vast majority of complaints towards FR4e seem to be "Forgotten Realms is being Forgotten Realms." Awful god interplay? Check! Mary Sue NPCs killing other Mary Sue NPCs? Check! Setting being overhauled yet again from yet another gods-driven disaster? Check! Races and classes being inserted and taken out willy nilly? Check!
None of that is unique to 4e's FR. That's just what FR is.
I have to say that the deity-soap part of FR is great. Reminds me a bit of greek and roman mythology.
I'd say "advancing the setting 100 years and killing off tons of beloved NPC's" is one of most important complaints. Of course it's pretty useless to tell that to a person who thinks the Realms were just "rejected screenplays for soap operas". Tastes differ.
I'm not a big fan of the 100 year time jump for the most part. I understand why they did it, giving enough room between the Spellplague and the current year to show that some stability has come back to the Realms. But I think it might have been more fun only to advance the timeline 10 or 20 years at the most. This would've allowed the writers to keep producing supplements with those beloved NPCs as well as made it easier on those who didn't like the Spellplague to ignore it completly. The smaller timejump would have had a lot smaller impact on people's Realms campaigns that they could've still played with it some and remaind close to Canon. Now, all their characters have passed away, died in battle, or made the Jump via some temproal stasis (like mine did) or some sort of time-warp.
What bugged me was that they had this huge badly designed epic 'expedition-like' module trilogy that has the PC's saving Mystra, mention it in the Grand History of the Realms, only to have it be rendered moot because she got ganked anyway. Not cool ganked, but lame ganked, not even a proper send off.
As for the changes, I don't think they're a Tuesday, the Time of Troubles stuff, the transition from second edition to third, all were tame compared to what they pulled with 4th edition. It's got some of the same names but it's not really the same setting anymore. I have my old books from the prior editions, should I run FR I'll use them. But I'm all about Golarion now. Might run a session or two of Eberron though as that setting was pretty much mechanically tailored for 3.5.
Honestly, I think that was the single biggest problem - lack of player involvement. They sorta just wanted the transition out of the way, so we suddenly had this new setting 100 years in the future. And only then, over the next few years, filled in some of the gaps via novels and such.
If they had released some adventures where players could bear witness to the cataclysm and take some part in it, if they had released novels building up to this instead of filling in the gaps afterwards... well, I'm sure many would still not be interested, but I think it would have made a big difference for many.
That does seem to be the crux of most complaints I have heard. Instead of building up to it, or letting the players feel like they were a part of it, they simply waved their hand, and hoped that enough people would follow to give them time to fill everything in later.
I can agree with that. The stories I hear about Paizo events like the drow war being played out by con attendees and being part of the campaign setting are great.For an example of how people universally love how that works, observe the L5R fandom and it's reaction to some of the events that their tournaments have produced.
You must know some different L5R fans then I do, because L5R lore always has a lot of people mad. There's been some sizable battles between the CCG and the RPG.
Eh, I suppose 4EFR might have been an okay-ish setting on its own. As I like to say, I just don't feel it is the Forgotten Realms I knew and liked. It's kind of like a spin-off: you have some similarities, and a lot of names are the same, but it is different in too many ways to mention. If it were a parody/tribute like the Dungeons: The Dragoning setting, that'd be fine. Only it isn't - it's forced down your throat that no, THIS is what happened to the setting iconically - "but hey, you are free to do whatever works in your games, smirk smirk".
I guess that's how some people feel about the oWoD and nWoD settings. /shrug. I definitely would prefer to set and play in games in oFR, I can say that much. The changes certainly have soured me on the setting a little - knowing that whatever you do, the Gods of Fluff have decided that as far as they are concerned, it doesn't matter because of their awesome decisions how to shape the world up.
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Not like it hasnt happened before. Mystara (abandoned by TSR 15 years ago, then plundered by WOTC for the Isle of Dread and other scraps) was left in a situation where a nigh-immortal Night Dragon was left in the Glantri setting where she might discover the Radiance (an event that has now occured as of the AC1019 Fan made Mystaran Almanac). This Dragon is most likely to absorb 5000 Rad from the Nucleus of the Spheres causing an explosion, an end to Magic, and a collapse of the Subterranean regions that undercut a half dozen lands (Southern Glantri, Western Alfhiem, Central Darokin, and The Broken lands).
It is really setting itself up for a new era (and Likely the 4E Engine) when the setting will need Immortal (gods) of Magic - and worse still the Goddess of Magic is likely to be the Enthropic Dragon unleashing the destruction.
It is really setting itself up for a new era (and Likely the 4E Engine) when the setting will need Immortal (gods) of Magic - and worse still the Goddess of Magic is likely to be the Enthropic Dragon unleashing the destruction.
Never really found the time to get into Mystara. I just remember it as the setting the two D&D arcade games were set. Good times, those :) . I thought it was one of the many settings that would be updated for 4E, although I suppose it might work there - 4E is mostly ok mechanically, imo, all you need is to luck out on the fluff writers and you're set :D .
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Now I read some of the books but can someone please explain to me what the heck happened to the Forgotten Realms. Are these changes before the switch to 4th? Finally, has this effected anyone's game?
Ive loved the Forgotten Realms since they first came out. I remember reading about it in Dragon and when the Gray Box finally came out I was all over it. So what the heck? Magic is dead? Kingdoms just fall? WTF?
After seeing what WoTC did to the Realms, I rolled up a drow ranger and named him P'SST!
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After seeing what WoTC did to the Realms, I rolled up a drow ranger and named him P'SST!Now I read some of the books but can someone please explain to me what the heck happened to the Forgotten Realms. Are these changes before the switch to 4th? Finally, has this effected anyone's game?
Ive loved the Forgotten Realms since they first came out. I remember reading about it in Dragon and when the Gray Box finally came out I was all over it. So what the heck? Magic is dead? Kingdoms just fall? WTF?
I would have gone Drow Paladin...
Not like it hasnt happened before. Mystara (abandoned by TSR 15 years ago, then plundered by WOTC for the Isle of Dread and other scraps) was left in a situation where a nigh-immortal Night Dragon was left in the Glantri setting where she might discover the Radiance (an event that has now occured as of the AC1019 Fan made Mystaran Almanac). This Dragon is most likely to absorb 5000 Rad from the Nucleus of the Spheres causing an explosion, an end to Magic, and a collapse of the Subterranean regions that undercut a half dozen lands (Southern Glantri, Western Alfhiem, Central Darokin, and The Broken lands).
It is really setting itself up for a new era (and Likely the 4E Engine) when the setting will need Immortal (gods) of Magic - and worse still the Goddess of Magic is likely to be the Enthropic Dragon unleashing the destruction.
Note that the Immortals came down and changed the Radiance frm the Reactor to no longer threaten magic, and Rad was scooped up by the Elders and is out of the picture.
So, problem solved. Except the part where a thousand Alphatian archmages tore apart the country and showed them namby pamby Glantrian school specialists what real magic is.
Heh.
===Aelryinth
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After seeing what WoTC did to the Realms, I rolled up a drow ranger and named him P'SST!Now I read some of the books but can someone please explain to me what the heck happened to the Forgotten Realms. Are these changes before the switch to 4th? Finally, has this effected anyone's game?
Ive loved the Forgotten Realms since they first came out. I remember reading about it in Dragon and when the Gray Box finally came out I was all over it. So what the heck? Magic is dead? Kingdoms just fall? WTF?
I laughed so hard I p'sst myself. I dont know how this devolved into an addition war but it seems like alot of people want to jump on that. Anyway Im running an old FR campaign and I am using the Well of Time to throw them into the future to give them a look at the new Forgotten Realms. Im not going to throw the money into a 4E Library unless they like it. I really was interested in how the change effected people's games and if anyone stuck with it.
-V-
I haven't ran a game in the Realms in a few years and that was an extended campaign of several years in 3.5 edition. However, my preference for the Realms is 2E because that's the edition I was playing when the Forgotten Realms boxed set was released. I loved the Realms and was very much into the RPGA at the time (this was in the late 80's/early 90's). My games were regulated to the North because I didn't want any Elminster influence and I could downplay the other "big NPC's" that Greenwood was touting at the time.
I never followed the changes in the novels or the later releases and announcements. I just played the 2E Realms (and later the 3E version) for years and years and had loads of fun. Would go back to it if I felt there was an audience for it.
So, just play what you know and love and don't worry about all of the other changes. Take 'em or leave 'em.
Mystara is pretty dang sweet and could make for a cool setting if they amp up how it differs from others. Put the emphasis on the Immortals and maybe make an Epic Path that ends with you becoming one. Put an emphasis on the vaguely-16th century swashbuckling idealism. Mystara is also probably the one setting that really pushes for territory and colony building.
Mystara is pretty dang sweet and could make for a cool setting if they amp up how it differs from others. Put the emphasis on the Immortals and maybe make an Epic Path that ends with you becoming one. Put an emphasis on the vaguely-16th century swashbuckling idealism. Mystara is also probably the one setting that really pushes for territory and colony building.
Always wanted to play in a campaign in Mystara but never could find a DM who was running it...back in the day. :)
They actually had two entire modules devoted just to setting up your own kingdom.
Keep on the Borderlands was the first.
The other one was set with the companion rules at the edge of the merchant kingdom, whatsisname, where you inherit a barony, and the events within it adjust your popularity with the people.
==Aelryinth
Ok so is there an official 4E world? I understand Greyhawk is dead, since Wotc Owns Forgotten Realms, are there any supplement books for the new setting all I can find is the campaign setting.
There is a Campaign setting...a Player's book...and a module. That was what their stated plans was for all campaigns which they changed for Dark sun which combined the campaign book and the player's book into one and came out with a Monster manuel for Dark Sun.
Also there was plans for a book detailing Neverwinter to go along with the reboot of the computer game...I don't know if they are still releasing it as they canceled alot of their D&D products for the rest of the year.
As side note...I don't like the changes...sure I might not have liked all the things they have done like the Godswar stuff...but every change till the leap to 4th ed Realms was atleast workable. You could ignore the whole Shades returning thing...and still have use for the books. But actualy converting my campaign to the 4th ed FR would not only mean accepting alot of changes I just don't like...but ignoring what various players have done in my campaign over the years.
My game is not at all cannon...but really nobodys game is...so would not these large scale changes be a bad isea? The more you do with cannon the more useless the books become. I blame the novels...
They actually had two entire modules devoted just to setting up your own kingdom.
Keep on the Borderlands was the first.
The other one was set with the companion rules at the edge of the merchant kingdom, whatsisname, where you inherit a barony, and the events within it adjust your popularity with the people.
==Aelryinth
My apologies, TEST OF THE WARLORDS was the first one. I still can't remember the other one, although I have the module, I haven't read it in years.
Had that killer cover of the blond in a white dress hiding behind a tree with a dagger in hand, while orcs raced through the woods behind her looking for her.
Edit: Legacy of Blood. You inherit a dominion from a cousin.
You know, I've never even SEEN the Endless Stair, by Ed Greenwood, and here I thought I had ALL the non-solo D@D modules...
===Aelryinth
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They actually had two entire modules devoted just to setting up your own kingdom.
Keep on the Borderlands was the first.
The other one was set with the companion rules at the edge of the merchant kingdom, whatsisname, where you inherit a barony, and the events within it adjust your popularity with the people.
==Aelryinth
My apologies, TEST OF THE WARLORDS was the first one. I still can't remember the other one, although I have the module, I haven't read it in years.
Had that killer cover of the blond in a white dress hiding behind a tree with a dagger in hand, while orcs raced through the woods behind her looking for her.
Edit: Legacy of Blood. You inherit a dominion from a cousin.
You know, I've never even SEEN the Endless Stair, by Ed Greenwood, and here I thought I had ALL the non-solo D@D modules...
===Aelryinth
OMG get your hands on the Endless Stair you wont be disappointed. The cover you described was on the cover of a Dragon Magazine in the 80's also wasnt it? I seem to remember being in school and buying it when I was living at school.
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Mystara is pretty dang sweet and could make for a cool setting if they amp up how it differs from others. Put the emphasis on the Immortals and maybe make an Epic Path that ends with you becoming one. Put an emphasis on the vaguely-16th century swashbuckling idealism. Mystara is also probably the one setting that really pushes for territory and colony building.
Considering Kingdoms and Territories are part of Dragon's 'treasure' in their Rise to Immortality in Mystara thanks to Bruce A. Heard further development of the Mystaran Dragon.
Note that the Immortals came down and changed the Radiance frm the Reactor to no longer threaten magic, and Rad was scooped up by the Elders and is out of the picture.So, problem solved. Except the part where a thousand Alphatian archmages tore apart the country and showed them namby pamby Glantrian school specialists what real magic is.
Heh.
===Aelryinth
Ah yes...POST WRATH OF THE IMMORTALS BOXED SET...Actually its up in the air as to whether Absorbing 5000 RAD all at once will still trigger a meltdown and explosion. And only Synn the Night Dragon could Do it. Actually that isnt entirely true...There is also all that Radiance stored in the 'Soul Crystals' of the Shadow Elves in the Soul Crystal Mines, and the 'other reactor' located in the Shadow Elf city of Stars... So someone could show up and absorb all that RAD and boom!
OMG get your hands on the Endless Stair you wont be disappointed. The cover you described was on the cover of a Dragon Magazine in the 80's also wasnt it? I seem to remember being in school and buying it when I was living at school.They actually had two entire modules devoted just to setting up your own kingdom.
Keep on the Borderlands was the first.
The other one was set with the companion rules at the edge of the merchant kingdom, whatsisname, where you inherit a barony, and the events within it adjust your popularity with the people.
==Aelryinth
My apologies, TEST OF THE WARLORDS was the first one. I still can't remember the other one, although I have the module, I haven't read it in years.
Had that killer cover of the blond in a white dress hiding behind a tree with a dagger in hand, while orcs raced through the woods behind her looking for her.
Edit: Legacy of Blood. You inherit a dominion from a cousin.
You know, I've never even SEEN the Endless Stair, by Ed Greenwood, and here I thought I had ALL the non-solo D@D modules...
===Aelryinth
There's two famous women Dragon covers. The first is the half elven blond sorceress with the pseudo dragon familiar, the other is the VERY buxom brunette ranger with the spear (and the model, in full apparel, was at Gen Con that year.)
So, they were smart enough not to repeat covers ;)
Now I want to go to Gen Con just to pick up a copy of the Endless Stair. Hah!
==Aelryinth
Contributor, RPG Superstar 2008 Top 4, Legendary Games
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I'd say "advancing the setting 100 years and killing off tons of beloved NPC's" is one of most important complaints. Of course it's pretty useless to tell that to a person who thinks the Realms were just "rejected screenplays for soap operas". Tastes differ.I'm not a big fan of the 100 year time jump for the most part. I understand why they did it, giving enough room between the Spellplague and the current year to show that some stability has come back to the Realms. But I think it might have been more fun only to advance the timeline 10 or 20 years at the most. This would've allowed the writers to keep producing supplements with those beloved NPCs as well as made it easier on those who didn't like the Spellplague to ignore it completly. The smaller timejump would have had a lot smaller impact on people's Realms campaigns that they could've still played with it some and remaind close to Canon. Now, all their characters have passed away, died in battle, or made the Jump via some temproal stasis (like mine did) or some sort of time-warp.
It kind of reminds me of God-Emperor of Dune. I really enjoyed the first three Dune books, but then in GEoD suddenly we're 4000 years in the future and almost every character I liked was long gone, the politics were all different, the background universe had changed. I read about the first 100 pages but just couldn't get into it.
Others may have felt differently, and in all fairness *I* myself ran an FR campaign where I advanced the timeline by 100 years! However, it happened WITHIN the campaign - the PCs got stuck in a stasis field and the world advanced around them. They eventually got out and stopped the big bads, but the world had changed while they were gone. The next campaign picked up after the fall of the evil empire, but in that case the players (mostly the same group) were able to see the effects of their previous characters' actions on the world, so they weren't totally apart from it.
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I love the Realms. Its a bit different but to each their own, if you like it stick with it. If you dont...Dont. That is the one thing about our shared hobby, it doesnt matter what addition you play, or what you like....We are always going to survive if their is ever a magic, Dragon coming through a portal, Zombies invading the world...type event.
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OMG get your hands on the Endless Stair you wont be disappointed. The cover you described was on the cover of a Dragon Magazine in the 80's also wasnt it? I seem to remember being in school and buying it when I was living at school.They actually had two entire modules devoted just to setting up your own kingdom.
Keep on the Borderlands was the first.
The other one was set with the companion rules at the edge of the merchant kingdom, whatsisname, where you inherit a barony, and the events within it adjust your popularity with the people.
==Aelryinth
My apologies, TEST OF THE WARLORDS was the first one. I still can't remember the other one, although I have the module, I haven't read it in years.
Had that killer cover of the blond in a white dress hiding behind a tree with a dagger in hand, while orcs raced through the woods behind her looking for her.
Edit: Legacy of Blood. You inherit a dominion from a cousin.
You know, I've never even SEEN the Endless Stair, by Ed Greenwood, and here I thought I had ALL the non-solo D@D modules...
===Aelryinth
If you are interested Mystaran (amongst others) Fans hang out on:
the piazza
Now I read some of the books but can someone please explain to me what the heck happened to the Forgotten Realms. Are these changes before the switch to 4th? Finally, has this effected anyone's game?
Ive loved the Forgotten Realms since they first came out. I remember reading about it in Dragon and when the Gray Box finally came out I was all over it. So what the heck? Magic is dead? Kingdoms just fall? WTF?
Grim and Dark is cool with the kids these days. Magic is dead, there is no hope, everything is dark grim gritty grim dark brown and bloom. It's hip and now, dawg!
[QUOTE="Aelryinth
There's two famous women Dragon covers. The first is the half elven blond sorceress with the pseudo dragon familiar, the other is the VERY buxom brunette ranger with the spear (and the model, in full apparel, was at Gen Con that year.)
So, they were smart enough not to repeat covers ;)
Now I want to go to Gen Con just to pick up a copy of the Endless Stair. Hah!
==Aelryinth
gonna need some links here! Pics or bust!
If I'm remembering the right covers I think they were done by Clyde Caldwell. His website has a gallery.gonna need some links here! Pics or bust!
There's two famous women Dragon covers. The first is the half elven blond sorceress with the pseudo dragon familiar, the other is the VERY buxom brunette ranger with the spear (and the model, in full apparel, was at Gen Con that year.)So, they were smart enough not to repeat covers ;)
Now I want to go to Gen Con just to pick up a copy of the Endless Stair. Hah!
==Aelryinth
I really like his work.