I've been playing with a group of friends for a few months. The GM has some experience under his belt, but all of the players are beginner to amateur (the last game I played was DnD 2ed., high school in 1992). He's a very patient man.
Last week, he has invited two new players to the group. With a LOT more experience than the rest of us. It seems as if they have the entire rulebook in their head. Now, this should be a good thing, but I have a few issues.
All characters are currently 4th level:
Main issue is that, while our characters were built through the point-buy, the two new characters were built with 4d6 (with their previous GM, and ported into our game). Neither has a single stat below 15. Most are 17-19. I did notice one stat at 24; even with racial mods, I don't get how they worked that.
One character is Oracle-2/Barbarian-2. The other, I forget since I have so far never seen the character in-game. He so far never failed an Acrobatics check and has remained permanently hidden up in trees. My character is assuming it's a pet monkey.
I was the first to voice a concern. The GM had them reroll in front of him, but the new results were even better on the whole than what they had, so he let it stick. I don't want a character who is simply good at everything, and GM doesn't seem wild about rebuilding any character anyway.
Realistically, how is this going to play out? Two guys with every rule committed to memory and characters playing superhumans, three of us learning as we move along. GM says it will all come out in the wash as everyone levels up. So far, we seem to crumble, then wait for the new guys to revive us (it should be noted that I am the party cleric). Our bard has given up on Diplomacy, and just lets the Oracle/Barbarian intimidate.
Will this all just work out? Or will we simply be sidelined as these guys steamroll over everything?
First of all, it sounds like you're not playing on equal terms; also, the 4d6 stat rolling, they did remove 1 die per roll, yes? Because if they didn't, somebody is doing something very wrong.
Secondly, the DM shouldn't allow two players to roll for stats and the others to do point-buy. This is personal bias, but either everybody rolls or everybody stats up through point-buy. Again, I'm biased.
Thirdly, it sounds like these two players are powergamers. While optimisers and powergaming is perfectly valid form for play, it clashes poorly with players who aren't as experienced and should probably not be allowed free reign. You need to ask yourself: am I enjoying this? And more importantly, how much do you contribute? If the three of you stopped coming to the sessions, would the other two players struggle in the slightest?
Having been the power-gaming rules-lawyering overpowered brat before, I can only imagine what it's like for new players to essentially be observers on the sideline. I don't think it's going to work out.
The new players need to rebuild (or make new ones) their characters with point-buy to fit in with the rest of the group. As experienced players they're already going to outshine the inexperienced ones. The extra boost of uber-stats is just going to continue to make everyone else feel like they suck.
Also, did they get to keep the items they got from their previous GM? How's their wealth level compared to the rest of the group?
the 4d6 stat rolling, they did remove 1 die per roll, yes? Because if they didn't, somebody is doing something very wrong.
Recalling now, I think I overheard--wasn't sure if they meant it happened with these characters--that if someone rolled three 6's, their previous group would also add the 4th to the total.
I should also mention, early on we were all required to draw up a backstory; something compelling for the GM to play around with some day in the future. I enjoyed this, and created a zealous stick-in-the-mud who would browbeat those around him into seeing things his way. No way I'm pulling that business now.
So far, I advance the character based on the character as an individual, not to be kickass. New guys clearly disapprove of what I've done, as opposed to what I could have. I think that is how they are dealing 30+ in damage, while the rest of us generally manage less than half of that.
They want us to rebuild, or kill our characters off and start over. I want them to rebuild, I like someone who's not just great at friggin' everything. GM wants it all to play out as it is. Just wondering if I can look forward to being (happily) wrong.
Also, did they get to keep the items they got from their previous GM? How's their wealth level compared to the rest of the group?
They kept their items, unsure of coin. Oh, yeah. The barbarian is unidentifiable because he is, essentially, encased in crazy-ass bone armor. Again, unsure of the other guy. My character really hasn't entirely ruled out the possibility of a big monkey in the trees.
Well this situation sounds like a drag man, sorry you have to go through that. It's obvious from your account that the GM clearly favors these newcomers and that's just plain wrong imo. The GM should be impartial and should control those know-it-alls. As a GM myself I cannot fathom why a GM would allow that type of behavior and the different ability score generation techniques. Just doesn't make any sense, there must be something else behind it. I would have a chat with your GM and let him know that he needs to rein those guys in. If not then he's not worth sticking with and you should find a new game. Make no mistake, the fault lies with your GM for allowing this to cause party strife.
I've seen this happen all too often, they really should make characters completely from scratch using point-buy. Having hold-over characters from one GM to another rarely works well unless the group, as a whole, is the same and you're just rotating GMs. At least, that's been my personal experience. YMMV.
Quite possible. In his defense, I'm sure it's a lot easier to guide veterans over newbies. Some players need reminding of this and that. I make sure I understand a move before I make it, which means I haven't even attempted most tactics.
To have skill in the group is very attractive, as seeing things play out alerts you to ideas that I didn't consider. Then, they'll superfluously execute an aerial somersault to attack something from overhead, because it's not like they'll miss. In case they do, they are wearing crazy spiky bone armor.
Quite possible. In his defense, I'm sure it's a lot easier to guide veterans over newbies. Some players need reminding of this and that. I make sure I understand a move before I make it, which means I haven't even attempted most tactics.
I disagree. It's not necessarily easier to deal with experienced players as, all to often, they are typically rules lawyers and actually more difficult to deal with because they try to "get over" on the system. I find new players to be more enjoyable, YMMV.
To have skill in the group is very attractive, as seeing things play out alerts you to ideas that I didn't consider. Then, they'll superfluously execute an aerial somersault to attack something from overhead, because it's not like they'll miss. In case they do, they are wearing crazy spiky bone armor.
Unfortunately what you're witnessing is overpowered players just going through the motions because they know they're not in any real danger. If they had a normal point-buy characters with normal gear they would not be acting that way imo. This sounds like a very screwy situation to me.
Hate hearing stories like this. Next thing you'll be telling me about the off-season NFL linebackers who showed up at a high school game and stomped the heck out of everyone in their path. =-(
Advise I would give is to address it outside the game, and NOT just prior to game-time when everyone is settling in. Don't show up for it -let the GM and group now ahead of time that you won't be showing up unless something changes. There isn't much argument against your criticisms, and you need to let the GM know that you aren't having fun with the overpowered show-boaters and if the situation doesn't improve, you'll seek your nostalgic kicks elsewhere.
It is obvious you have a love for the game, and for a certain style of reasonable play, with reasonable expectations. The fact that you've got two members of the crew showing up overplaying the "mystery" card (with one character not even debuted to date? Really?) really shows what's you are up against, and the simple statement of "this isn't any fun for me" and "we aren't playing characters on a level playing field" are pretty hard to counter.
Good luck, man. Really.
Advise I would give is to address it outside the game, and NOT just prior to game-time when everyone is settling in.
Good advice. I did voice my concerns the day after last week's session, and got a response earlier today. "They're a little stronger, but I'm not convinced it won't go away by itself." So, I came here to double check my prognosis.
Go figure, homeopathy still doesn't work.
Main issue is that, while our characters were built through the point-buy, the two new characters were built with 4d6 (with their previous GM, and ported into our game). Neither has a single stat below 15. Most are 17-19. I did notice one stat at 24; even with racial mods, I don't get how they worked that.
?!?
I was the first to voice a concern. The GM had them reroll in front of him, but the new results were even better on the whole than what they had, so he let it stick. I don't want a character who is simply good at everything, and GM doesn't seem wild about rebuilding any character anyway.
!!!
How did this work out? They're cheating their asses off. If most of their stats are 17-19, even keeping the 4th die if they roll at least 3 sixes, those dice are loaded.
Did they reroll in front of all of you or just the DM? Because if it was just the DM, he may be letting their cheating ways slide... and he shouldn't.
It sounds like the problem isn't how the stats were generated as much as it is a much larger play style issue. The two newcomers are clearly used to a more generous DM and a group that tends to powergame. This would be a problem irregardless of how their stats were generated if they are porting characters from a campaign where magic items were available at a different rate than the one you are in.
The biggest problem with the difference in stat generation isn't the stats, to be quite honest. A good DM can find ways to work around differences between characters, even extreme differences, when the players are cooperating with him. The problems usually come from people who use different techniques to generate stats generally have different expectations of the game. Very few DMs have the ability to bridge wide gaps in player expectations, which seems to be the root of the problem in this case. I wish you the best of luck, as that is not an easy situation to be in.
I personally would have let them roll if they really felt like it, but made them make new characters to fit into the campaign they were joining with the same requirements regarding backstory as the original characters and limiting equipment to the level of the existing party. All other things being equal, a difference in just the stats isn't that hard to deal with, especially at level 4, where equipment, and access to it, is starting to become more important than pure attributes.
I've been playing with a group of friends for a few months. The GM has some experience under his belt, but all of the players are beginner to amateur (the last game I played was DnD 2ed., high school in 1992). He's a very patient man.
Bring up your concerns politely and respectfully; ideally the best place is in private with the GM immediately after a session. That way, everything that concerns you is fresh in both of your minds.
At some point, if it doesn't improve, you may have to accept the fact that the game you were playing and enjoyed is no longer being run; having been replaced by a game that you aren't enjoying.
Life is too short to waste time doing something you both don't need and don't want to do. If the GM fails to properly address your concerns, then by all means, Quit. Then start a game of your own including the people you do enjoy playing with.
It sounds like your going to have troubles... at the very least it sounds like some of the group is going to start bitter and it will influence the rest of the campaign...
Honestly, I prefer rolling dice... but the stat buy is 'ok' too... I've HAD some superhuman characters that probably wouldn't have fit in that group...
HOWEVER... JUST going off the stats... I'd probably agree with the GM... the numbers aren't going to be THAT big of a difference gamewise.
I would recommend changing you view point. Stop thinking of the game as a 'stat-buy' game. Obviously it no longer is. It is now a Random roll game.
New guys rolled well... Old guys rolled poorly. It's pretty much like EVERY game I've played in before Pathfinder. In fact... If your group 'bought' your way up to the 20's... then you SHOULD have a couple of stats that are higher than what they COULD have rolled.
I think if the rules changed on me in mid game, I'd be pretty bitter... but i recommend just looking at in a 'I didn't roll TOO well' philosophy, and just try to enjoy the game :)
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Mixing the methods of stat generation is a little weird (also a little weird that the DM let them bring characters from a different game over), it should be all one or the other, and it might make those two characters more powerful right now, I think the bigger issue is that they're power gamers playing with new players. This wouldn't be an issue if they could tone it down and help you guys out rather than telling you to kill off your characters and start over or if they could adjust their play styles.
My advice is a little different from what everyone else has said. Since you've already talked to the DM and he doesn't seem like he's going to do anything, talk to everyone before the game gets started. If the other original players feel the same way, the DM might be more inclined to do something. If not, and if you aren't having fun with the game with the two new players (which it sounds like to me you aren't), leave. Thank the DM for his time, tell everyone that you aren't having fun anymore and leave.
I would never import characters from another campaign. If some players wanted to join my campaign, I'd make them create new characters using the generation system that all the other characters in that campaign used. Is there any good reason why your GM didn't do this?
"Neither has a single stat below 15"+
"The GM had them reroll in front of him, but the new results were even better on the whole than what they had"+
"Recalling now, I think I overheard--wasn't sure if they meant it happened with these characters--that if someone rolled three 6's, their previous group would also add the 4th to the total."
I'm sure they're cheating somehow, or else just totally butchering the concept of the rolls with exceptions and bonuses. Average roll on 3d6 should be 10.5. 4d6, drop lowest, should give you 13. 23% chance to roll a 15 or higher on any given score, and let's be extremely fair and bump that to 30% to allow for racial bonuses being greater than racial penalties overall (even though circumstantially a case could be made for lowering the % as well). To get four out of six scores of 15+ each is a total likelihood of less than 1% - for both of them to get all six at 15+ is just absurd.
I would be most displeased to be in your situation but I'm not sure what you should do. At the least, I'd say demand a chance to roll your own stats - and use the process of narrowing down the roll method being used as a means to demonstrate that their own numbers are bogus. Using it as a personal attack against them would probably be counterproductive, but using it to demonstrate the brokenness of the rolling system is fair.
They want us to rebuild, or kill our characters off and start over. I want them to rebuild, I like someone who's not just great at friggin' everything. GM wants it all to play out as it is. Just wondering if I can look forward to being (happily) wrong.
A great GM wants to make ALL of his players happy ALL the time. And strives for that. But a great GM realizes that's just not possible. And a great GM must also recognize when something is blatently unfair and puts his/her foot down no matter who it ticks off.
These two new players to your group may be new players to YOUR group for a reason.
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RPG Superstar 2015 Top 32, RPG Superstar 2012 Top 32
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"Neither has a single stat below 15"+
"The GM had them reroll in front of him, but the new results were even better on the whole than what they had"+
"Recalling now, I think I overheard--wasn't sure if they meant it happened with these characters--that if someone rolled three 6's, their previous group would also add the 4th to the total."I'm sure they're cheating somehow, or else just totally butchering the concept of the rolls with exceptions and bonuses. Average roll on 3d6 should be 10.5. 4d6, drop lowest, should give you 13. 23% chance to roll a 15 or higher on any given score, and let's be extremely fair and bump that to 30% to allow for racial bonuses being greater than racial penalties overall (even though circumstantially a case could be made for lowering the % as well). To get four out of six scores of 15+ each is a total likelihood of less than 1% - for both of them to get all six at 15+ is just absurd.
Ask to roll your own stats, using the dice they used for theirs. The odds against their stats are astronomical (even if they're not blatantly cheating by totaling all four dice), to the point that I suspect loaded dice.
Well, to update...
The GM has implemented this solution. He arranged a highly unbalanced encounter. The new guys took the front line, did their bit, but didn't survive before deus ex machina was employed to help the rest wrap up. New characters must be created, but with a 30-point buy, the rest will be given a few extra points to close the margin.
So, while the new guys balked, they did agree to "see how it all works out." I am satisfied with the compromise, as I get the impression that their previous GM did not tailor combat to a party's stats (leading to frequent deaths if rolled stats were average or low). Our GM also threw in a few twists to the plot, giving me hope that storytelling is going to take a front seat for a while.
Thanks for the advice, folks. Was a huge help.
Also, no more rolling on a binder, dice must cross the board to be valid.
Well, to update...
The GM has implemented this solution. He arranged a highly unbalanced encounter. The new guys took the front line, did their bit, but didn't survive before deus ex machina was employed to help the rest wrap up. New characters must be created, but with a 30-point buy, the rest will be given a few extra points to close the margin.So, while the new guys balked, they did agree to "see how it all works out." I am satisfied with the compromise, as I get the impression that their previous GM did not tailor combat to a party's stats (leading to frequent deaths if rolled stats were average or low). Our GM also threw in a few twists to the plot, giving me hope that storytelling is going to take a front seat for a while.
Thanks for the advice, folks. Was a huge help.
Also, no more rolling on a binder, dice must cross the board to be valid.
Could you define 'a few extra points', cuz if its less then 10, I have some serious questions of wtf for your dm.
Well, to update...
The GM has implemented this solution. He arranged a highly unbalanced encounter. The new guys took the front line, did their bit, but didn't survive before deus ex machina was employed to help the rest wrap up. New characters must be created, but with a 30-point buy, the rest will be given a few extra points to close the margin.So, while the new guys balked, they did agree to "see how it all works out." I am satisfied with the compromise, as I get the impression that their previous GM did not tailor combat to a party's stats (leading to frequent deaths if rolled stats were average or low). Our GM also threw in a few twists to the plot, giving me hope that storytelling is going to take a front seat for a while.
Thanks for the advice, folks. Was a huge help.
Also, no more rolling on a binder, dice must cross the board to be valid.
That seems like a convuluted road to get to "please create new 20 point buy characters for the campaign" All's well that ends well I suppose.
That seems like a convuluted road to get to "please create new 20 point buy characters for the campaign" All's well that ends well I suppose.
It does, but I think he was trying to work out a situation in which he didn't have to clearly choose a side, or withdraw a previous allowance. The super-character's deaths could have been blind luck that he took advantage of?
As for the bonus to existing character stats, mine were built with 20 points, so I'll be adding 10 to equal 30. I like the 20-point build, but I'm not going to dig my heels in there.
????
Yeah... that seems a strange solution.
I can understand a DM making a few exceptions for new players who REALLy love their super character. Obviously they had some sentimental connection to them, and since they were bringing them to the new game... Obviously they would never get to play them again in their old group...
Every once in a while we do a 'favorites' game where everyone digs into the old dead folders for past characters to team up...
However, once they died... I don't understand the 30 point build... once you join a new group with brand new characters... they should fit in with the existing ones... Bump their level up to match the dead characters... but something seems strange there.
I get the feeling the DM REALLY wants the new blood in the game, and is bending over backwards begging them to stay... Sounds kind of like a dangerous precedent to set...
You're still faced with some obvious cheating powergamers intent on dominating the proceedings. If the whole group doesn't get the exact same treatment IRT point buy, you're getting hosed.
From what I've read here so far, they wouldn't be welcome at my table.
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Will this all just work out? Or will we simply be sidelined as these guys steamroll over everything?
In a word. No.
The newbs with the non-cheese characters will be hopelessly overshadowed at everything they do. ("15s in everything" = 42pt buy per PFS -- the newbs with 20pt buy would have to be 88th-level epic characters to achieve the same advancement at the rate of bump-per-4. In short, the pimped PCs are always going to be about +4 over you guys in almost everything you do.)
Talk to your fellow newbs and come to a common agreement, then pull the DM aside (our of earshot of the others) -- and put your foot down.
Those other guys need to make new characters or reduce their stats to fit the same level point-buy as yours.
Oh, and yeah: This is why I hate rolling for stats and level hit-dice -- it makes everything your character does relativistically unimportant compared to those precious few die rolls. (If the DM allows "adjusting or re-rolling, then it become more like point-buy, meaning he just use that in the first place.)
Every once in a while we do a 'favorites' game where everyone digs into the old dead folders for past characters to team up...