I would love to see the orb spells come back even if they were at a level higher(2nd for lesser 6th for standard).
That maximized orb is not always powered by a regular metamagic feat, but by a metamagic rod.Which isn't free. A maximize rod that can be used on the Orb spells is half of the WBL of a 13th-level wizard (using the WOTC table). Again, CR 11 enemies (cannon fodder at this level) will survive a hit from a maximized Orb even if they aren't resistant/immune.
There isn't any way you can slice it that it's a lot of damage.
Bestiary 1 says typical CR 11 "cannon fodder" have 145 hp. Average no-save-allowed 13d6 orb wipes out 45-46 points of that - roughly a third (31% and change). That means it is one "volley" of attacks from 3 of the party to frag that cannon fodder (1 orb, 1 fighter hit, 1 rogue sneak attack). This leaves any additional iterative attacks and the cleric/4th party member free and clear to continue mopping up cannon fodder on this same round.
Taking out a third of 145 hp - probably on the higher end of most PCs at 13th level - is not insignificant for a 4th level spell. That's actually about where it should be for that spell and caster level. 4th level spells are not even the "big gun" against CR 11 foes, 5th and 6th level spells are.
Quickened haste plus "regular" orb plus remaining party members taking on an "at APL" encounter of 2 CR 11s (encounter CR 13) die in one round, using quite a bit less than 20% of party resources (1 7th and 1 4th from the wizard, zero from fighter and rogue, 1 or maybe 2 spells from the cleric). If it is an "epic" encounter of CR 16 - which is 6 CR 11 cannon fodder - the party wipes them out in 3 rounds, which is "par for the course" for a theoretically-typical combat encounter.
Even the 13th level Wizard can probably support 2 quickened hastes per day.
Against the aforementioned cannon fodder, I doubt the wizard would even waste a quickened haste on the encounter.
First round - regular haste (wizard), stabbity death (fighter and rogue flanking after movement), something nasty (cleric), 1 of 2 CR 11 pukes dies, 2nd cannon fodder nibbles on fighter and/or rogue.
Second round - orb (wizard), stabbity death dispatches the #2 CR 11 mook (who ever goes first - fighter or rogue), other stabby guy twiddles thumbs, cleric hands out band-aids (heal checks for first aid), combat clock stops, looting begins.
CR 13 encounter is over with two or three spells and some stabbity death, not even close to 20% of party resources, in a round and a half.
The CR 16 encounter with 6 CR 11 cannon fodder would likely take all of 3, *maybe* 4 rounds, to wipe them out. It wouldn't necessarily take more than 1 of the wizard's 2+ 7th level spell slots to resolve it (quickened haste plus a regular 45-46 point orb).
The two encounters put together might have depleted the wizard 4 out of 5 4th level spell slots (orbs) - 1 orb for the pair and 3 for the half-dozen - 1 7th level spell slot (quickened haste) and a smattering of other stuff (mage armor, shield, fly, resist energy and/or protection from energy) of 3rd level or lower. Both put together are fairly likely to have only depleted the 20% mark from the entire party.
So the orb stacks up pretty nice, without metamagic. An empower metamagic rod is 32,500 gp - 25% of 13th level WBL, more or less - and ramps the average orb damage from 45-46 to 68 for three orbs a day. One per round lets either stabbity death character finish it off while the other stabbity death partners up with the cleric to smoosh the other one.
Result: one round fight for "at APL" encounters. Aka: booooring. You'd need 3 a day just to make things slightly interesting.
The CR 16 encounter with 6 CR 11 cannon fodder will end when wizard casts Confusion followed by a Slow, or similar combination of spells. No need for fancy damaging spells or high level spells.
The issues with Orbs are as follows:
1. They bypass Spell Resistance. To the extent that a Sorcerer can get by with just knowing, "Orb of Force" and applying metamagics as necessary.
Orb of Force is a 4th level spell that in it's base form deals a maximum of 10d6 damage to a single target with no secondary effect, if it hits, which is a 35 points of damage on average. Do you really consider that powerful ?
2. They are Conjuration and better at blasting than Evocation.
That's a valid argument but that's how wotc designed conjuration damaging spells and paizo picked that up again for backwards compatibility purposes I guess.
3. There were ones for every obscure damage type, which made immunities rather irrelevant.
There are evocation damaging spells for every damage type also and non orb damaging spells of every type. If you are a sorcerer player that wants to learn every orb spell there is I would consider that funny, but not a boon to your character by any means.
4. They (in 3.5) were a way to damage Magic-Immune creatures far, far too easily.
It's a lot easier and more efficient for arcane spellcasters to damage magic immune creatures indirectly by casting buffs on martial characters or making good use of battlefield control than it is by casting damaging spells directly on magic immune targets in 3.0/3.5/pathfinder.
5. They ignore saves. In conjunction with them being touch-attack dependent, they were really just effortless damage against opponents with low touch AC. Most opponent's touch AC did not provide a real challenge to hit.
That's true but they are crappy effortless damage spells that still expends your precious spell slot that can be used for better spells.
6. Their superior damage and neigh unstopability made them perfect targets for metamagic feats, so that they could be continued to be used at higher levels.
Superior damage ? To evocations you mean ? They deal the same base damage, but affect only one creature and that creature is affected more reliably. It's true that they are better than most evocations, but most evocations are very bad spells so that's not really an issue.
The CR 16 encounter with 6 CR 11 cannon fodder will end when wizard casts Confusion followed by a Slow, or similar combination of spells. No need for fancy damaging spells or high level spells.
Two save-dependant SR-resistable effects, hardly uncommon amongst CR 11 foes. The haste and orb combo is significantly more effective.
RPG Superstar 2009 Top 32, 2010 Top 8
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My experience was with Orb of force. I played an Abjurant Cheesewhore battle sorcerer and often had my familar on hand with items.
I was good for neutralizing other casters with readied actions with Orb of Force. Who needs to make a caster level check and counter spell with a readied action when you can ready OoF that makes for a DC 55 + spell level concentration check on average? And this was w/o rods or other cheese. When you mix it with other spells it became worse. And if you chose to close with my battle sorcerer? Form of the Red Dragon was a swift action to cast. Now to get me to give up my readied action to shut down your wizard boss, you have to get past my mage armoured Large red dragon that was a familiar a few seconds ago. Oh, and he gets a full attack.
Plus the school was nuts. I mean it's an instantanious creation. So what do I do with the permanent non-dispellable orb of force that is laying there?
The CR 16 encounter with 6 CR 11 cannon fodder will end when wizard casts Confusion followed by a Slow, or similar combination of spells. No need for fancy damaging spells or high level spells.Two save-dependant SR-resistable effects, hardly uncommon amongst CR 11 foes. The haste and orb combo is significantly more effective.
Hmm what ?
*A wizard with a starting int of 20* + 2/3 int per level increase
*Greater Spell Focus: Enchantment
*A spell or an item that grants +4 int
Confusion DC:24; Easily achievable with no optimization.
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Will saves of CR 11 monsters from PF bestiary:
Elder Air Elemental: +7 (saves 20% of times)
Barbed Devil: +8 (saves 25% of times)
Black Dragon Adult: +12 (saves 45% of times)
Brass Dragon Adult: +12 (saves 45% of times)
Nightmare, Cauchamer: +7 (saves 20% of times)
Cloud Giant: +10 (saves 35% of times)
Devourer: +12 (immune)
Elder Earth Elemental: +10 (saves 35% of times)
Elder Elemental Fire: +7 (saves 20% of times)
Gold Dragon Young: +13 (saves 50% of times) - best save
Hezrou: +9 (saves 30% of times)
Retriever: +5 (immune)
Stone golem: +4 (immune)
Elder Water Elemental: +5 (saves 10% of times)
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Hmm what ?
*A wizard with a starting int of 20
* + 2/3 int per level increase
*Greater Spell Focus: Enchantment
*A spell or an item that grants +4 int
Confusion DC:24; Easily achievable with no optimization.
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How exactly is a starting int of 20 not optimization?
How exactly is a starting int of 20 not optimization?
Hmm what ?
*A wizard with a starting int of 20
* + 2/3 int per level increase
*Greater Spell Focus: Enchantment
*A spell or an item that grants +4 int
Confusion DC:24; Easily achievable with no optimization.
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I am sorry, I meant no metagaming. English is not my native language.
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RPG Superstar 2009 Top 32, 2010 Top 8
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Well in a 20 point buy, a human can start at 18 (16 + 2 racial) and still go Str 8 Dex 14 Con 12 Wis 11 Cha 12 so at 12th level you're looking at a 21 int. GSF Enchantment, +4 item, makes for a +9 so Confusion is DC 23. Not bad for a spell two levels below the highest you can cast (at 8th level, it's going to be DC 23 still with a 20 int.
Also if you're an enchanter, you can drop their save bonuses by 2 with aura of despair if you're withing 30'. That's all from the CRB.
Everyone on the blasting side is using totally unoptimized blasters. Let's take a look at a slightly optimized blaster.
Use Sanctum spell to reduce the level of the spell to 3 and use lesser metamagic rods. And don't forget the feat to carry a metamagic feat over when you cast the same spell in successive rounds.
A 13th level blaster wizard against two foes can put out 45 (lesser rod of quicken) to the first enemy and 78 (lesser rod of max) to the second, force both to save vs. effect (daze) and do it again the next round at the low cost of 2 charges from lesser rods and some 4th level spell slots and a pair of feats.
It may not be as quick as some controllers would end the fight, but it doesn't rely on having minions either.
Im pretty sure that you can't use two metamagic rods at the same time.
Controllers can also use metamagic rods and they get really overpowered when doing so. I don't like rods because of that and didn't use them in my example. But, if you want, try using persistent spell rod with control spells and check which monster saves.
Don't you just love blanket generalizations?
They dealt a "large" amount of d6s to ONE target IF you managed to hit it (which for a wizard is never a certainty). They were designed in order for wizards to be able to deal damage to classes with evasion, or creatures with absurdly high SR (hello mind flayers).
I can tell you have never had to suffer quickened true strike into a maximized orb. Other more-balanced spells that get around spell resistance as well as the raft of abilities that improve getting around spell resistance are a much smarter way of handling it. It is sometimes nice for the wizard to turn to the fighter when facing a super high SR opponent and say: "you take him out and I'll offer support".
As far as I'm concerned, good riddance to the things.
Best Regards
Herremann the Wise
+1. Herremann the Wise is Wise, indeed.
Goodbye orb spells, darken my gaming table no more forever with your cheese.
Put me down as one who wish UM had some type of ORB like/simliar spells..
Wizards/Sorcerers need a way to bypass saves and spell resistance it's not to overpowered, especially when compared to control spells.
Really sad and disappointed :(
Why put defenses on monsters if they can be easily overcomed?
At least on my games, lesser beings are blasted away easily. Bosses and powerful beings are not, at least in one shot.
An generally speaking, introduce "lol I overcome zhat" and "lol I'm immune to your immunities" mechanics is BAD, or at least should be done carefully.
It overthrows assumptions of the game, and assumption people had designing a specific things. This is valid, too, for the "lulz my spellz has immunities to death ward" feat in UM.
:(
Side note: evocation only, SR: yes orb like spells with condition added could be fine. more than that, and changins school (UM, again) is a bad idea.
Best Paizo could do is design new spells that mimic those, right?
BAD idea.
Orb spells were a mess. they were conjuration school, but conjured a somewhat nonmagical fire/acid whatever dealing a big amount of d6 of damage, with no explaination needed.
They were, as said conjuration, and great blast, better than most evocation ones. So evocation, the blasting school, was outclassed IN BLASTING by conjuration school. Great idea.
Finally, they were able to blast golem or through an antimagic field, because were "instantaneous conjurations".
Orb spells were incredibly dumb for a number of reason, and the better if they are left in the dust.
Did some one change how Acid Splash or Acid Arrow worked and not tell anyone?
Did some one change how Acid Splash or Acid Arrow worked and not tell anyone?
Cartigan,
Look at acid arrow as an example. The acid conjured is "mundane" in damage, in a sense the damage is limited to few dice (2d4) for a limited amount of time.
moreover, the spell has not the "istantaneous" duration bringing the "O_o" the orbs bringed in case of AMF.
Acid splas does have an intantaneous duration, but the nonsense is tuned down by the d3 damage.
Did some one change how Acid Splash or Acid Arrow worked and not tell anyone?Cartigan,
Look at acid arrow as an example. The acid conjured is "mundane" in damage, in a sense the damage is limited to few dice (2d4) for a limited amount of time.
moreover, the spell has not the "istantaneous" duration bringing the "O_o" the orbs bringed in case of AMF.
Acid splas does have an intantaneous duration, but the nonsense is tuned down by the d3 damage.
Acid Arrow is conjured and has no SR or saving throw. And there is no implication that the acid is magical either. AMF won't stop the recurring damage.
Acid Arrow is conjured and has no SR or saving throw. And there is no implication that the acid is magical either. AMF won't stop the recurring damage.
"there is no implication that the acid is magical either".
In fact, has a reasonable, we can say "realistic" damage, does not go up to 15d6 + save vs effect.
BTW, that save was a fortitude, very weird vs targets with mettle (the old stalwart). But in that case, weird in an awesome way :P
@Ice_Deep: that stuff is there for a reason. moreover, if you increase spellcasters damage, I wonder what remains for meleers.
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Orb of force...create a non magical orb of magical force...that right there was the death of orb spells for me. I am okay with the orb spells going in evocation with SR yes. Orb spells in conjuration was somebody at WotC playing their pet favorite class mut be uber (aka ed stark and the druid). It made evocation even MORE of a no brainer banned school and conjuration even more of a no brainer specialist school. That is just piss poor game design and I honestly do not want to see spells like the orb spells back in conjuration...and this is from somebody who is a cheesemonkey wizard player.
Icedeep, I see your point, but there are blasting spells. You CAN deal those not-so-high-damage and contribute to the fight in that way.
You want orb spells for the "no-reflex save" mainly? would you mind if they were 15d6 or 10d8, save: no, spell resistance: yes?
Orb of force...create a non magical orb of magical force...that right there was the death of orb spells for me. I am okay with the orb spells going in evocation with SR yes. Orb spells in conjuration was somebody at WotC playing their pet favorite class mut be uber (aka ed stark and the druid). It made evocation even MORE of a no brainer banned school and conjuration even more of a no brainer specialist school. That is just piss poor game design and I honestly do not want to see spells like the orb spells back in conjuration...and this is from somebody who is a cheesemonkey wizard player.
Acid Splash.
Orb of force...create a non magical orb of magical force...that right there was the death of orb spells for me. I am okay with the orb spells going in evocation with SR yes. Orb spells in conjuration was somebody at WotC playing their pet favorite class mut be uber (aka ed stark and the druid). It made evocation even MORE of a no brainer banned school and conjuration even more of a no brainer specialist school. That is just piss poor game design and I honestly do not want to see spells like the orb spells back in conjuration...and this is from somebody who is a cheesemonkey wizard player.Acid Splash.
Bran Muffins.
Orb of force...create a non magical orb of magical force...that right there was the death of orb spells for me. I am okay with the orb spells going in evocation with SR yes. Orb spells in conjuration was somebody at WotC playing their pet favorite class mut be uber (aka ed stark and the druid). It made evocation even MORE of a no brainer banned school and conjuration even more of a no brainer specialist school. That is just piss poor game design and I honestly do not want to see spells like the orb spells back in conjuration...and this is from somebody who is a cheesemonkey wizard player.Acid Splash.
Cartigan, maybe I didn't explained myself correctly before.
acid splash sounds more acceptable because of the d3. I say this not only for balance reasons, but for "realism" (in the logic of the magical world) reasons. A conjured (hence real) d3 istantaneous acid able to pass through AMF seems more reasonable than a 15d6 one, and then balance issues add in.
Orb of force...create a non magical orb of magical force...that right there was the death of orb spells for me. I am okay with the orb spells going in evocation with SR yes. Orb spells in conjuration was somebody at WotC playing their pet favorite class mut be uber (aka ed stark and the druid). It made evocation even MORE of a no brainer banned school and conjuration even more of a no brainer specialist school. That is just piss poor game design and I honestly do not want to see spells like the orb spells back in conjuration...and this is from somebody who is a cheesemonkey wizard player.Acid Splash.Cartigan, maybe I didn't explained myself correctly before.
acid splash sounds more acceptable because of the d3. I say this not only for balance reasons, but for "realism" (in the logic of the magical world) reasons. A conjured (hence real) d3 istantaneous acid able to pass through AMF seems more reasonable than a 15d6 one, and then balance issues add in.
What balance issue? Acid Splash does d3 because it's a cantrip. Like Frost Ray or whatever. Should we get rid of all higher level rays because their damage increases with level? The balance on non-saving throw spells is the need to hit the target
What balance issue? Acid Splash does d3 because it's a cantrip. Like Frost Ray or whatever. Should we get rid of all higher level rays because their damage increases with level? The balance on non-saving throw spells is the need to hit the targetOrb of force...create a non magical orb of magical force...that right there was the death of orb spells for me. I am okay with the orb spells going in evocation with SR yes. Orb spells in conjuration was somebody at WotC playing their pet favorite class mut be uber (aka ed stark and the druid). It made evocation even MORE of a no brainer banned school and conjuration even more of a no brainer specialist school. That is just piss poor game design and I honestly do not want to see spells like the orb spells back in conjuration...and this is from somebody who is a cheesemonkey wizard player.Acid Splash.Cartigan, maybe I didn't explained myself correctly before.
acid splash sounds more acceptable because of the d3. I say this not only for balance reasons, but for "realism" (in the logic of the magical world) reasons. A conjured (hence real) d3 istantaneous acid able to pass through AMF seems more reasonable than a 15d6 one, and then balance issues add in.
And their damage. Damage is always a balance factor. The reality is that it's not even the damage that is a huge concern for me, just the fact it's some of the best blasting spells...but not in the school that is used for blasting. Also, the non-SR thing is a bunch of malarkey. If they make it evocation and subject to SR, I don't think the damage is even an issue.
There are already plenty of ways to help you overcome SR. Also, Acid Arrow has been mentioned as a spell that does something like what you want, though the damage is admittedly low.
There are also a fair amount of no save touch spells that do nice damage. The balance there is that you have to be in touch range. Take Reach Spell and have a field day doing what you want to do. All of these options exist, you just have to be creative a tiny bit.
Edit: Also, if you are facing high save enemies, mem some buff spells. They make you REALLY valuable as well as keeping (probably ENHANCING) the fun for the melee types that you talked about earlier.
IMHO with feats, elves and stuff SR is ok that way.
I can see Evocation, 10d8, ST: no, SR: yes orbs.
perhaps at different levels, someone with added effects in that case (for the very reason that firteball, cone of cold and so on are not all the same level, but is a random, additional thing I was wondering about).
My only concern is: how does this combines with feats? as an example, dazing spells metamagic feat?
BTW, the Dazing lasting more than one round is one of the "What The Fey" things of APG IMHO (but not among the biggest offenders).
And, what Sylvanite said :)
Example of what I said slightly above:
A Reach, Intensified Force Punch (from UM) is a ranged touch attack that does up to 15d4 force damage with no save (it does have SR). Then there is also a Fort save or the target is pushed up to 50 feet. The movement may or may not even provoke AoOs (it's not specified either way, I am not sure if there is a general rule or not that forced movement of any kind doesn't provoke AoOs).
Heck....a Reach, Intesified Shocking Grasp is a no save 10d6 damage that you even get a bonus to hit with if the target has metal armor on. That's a 3rd level spell (single target, equal to fireball, with no save).
I just don't see the problem. Yeah, it requires some feat investment. I don't think that's such a big deal. Heck, using Calcific Touch as a Ranged spell is pretty brutal (5th level slot) even if the target makes the save.
Reach'd Frigid Touch is a 3rd level spell that does 4d6 and STAGGERS on a hit. That's awesome. Talk about saving your melee team members butts later on...
Enervation by itself is fantastic.
Even a Reach'd Chill Touch could be pretty cool since you can shoot it more than once per round. Might be fun for an Arcane Trickster with Improved Invisbility.
Bolt of Force
School: evocation [force] Level: sor/wiz 4
Casting time: one standard action
Range: medium (100 ft. + 10 ft./level)
Target: one creature
Duration: instantaneous
Saving throw: none Spell Resistance: yes
A glowing bolt of force springs from your fingertip and speeds to its target.
You must succeed on a ranged touch attack to hit your target. The bolt deals 1d4+1 force damage per caster level (maximum 15d4+15). Specific parts of a creature can't be singled out. Objects are not damaged by the spell.
You guys are hung up on this orb thing. Bolts are where it's at, baby!
Bolt of Force
School: evocation [force] Level: sor/wiz 4
Casting time: one standard action
Range: medium (100 ft. + 10 ft./level)
Target: one creature
Duration: instantaneous
Saving throw: none Spell Resistance: yesA glowing bolt of force springs from your fingertip and speeds to its target.
You must succeed on a ranged touch attack to hit your target. The bolt deals 1d4+1 force damage per caster level (maximum 15d4+15). Specific parts of a creature can't be singled out. Objects are not damaged by the spell.You guys are hung up on this orb thing. Bolts are where it's at, baby!
Is that from UM?
Is that from UM?Bolt of Force
School: evocation [force] Level: sor/wiz 4
Casting time: one standard action
Range: medium (100 ft. + 10 ft./level)
Target: one creature
Duration: instantaneous
Saving throw: none Spell Resistance: yesA glowing bolt of force springs from your fingertip and speeds to its target.
You must succeed on a ranged touch attack to hit your target. The bolt deals 1d4+1 force damage per caster level (maximum 15d4+15). Specific parts of a creature can't be singled out. Objects are not damaged by the spell.You guys are hung up on this orb thing. Bolts are where it's at, baby!
No. Just made it up. XD
No. Just made it up. XDIs that from UM?Bolt of Force
School: evocation [force] Level: sor/wiz 4
Casting time: one standard action
Range: medium (100 ft. + 10 ft./level)
Target: one creature
Duration: instantaneous
Saving throw: none Spell Resistance: yesA glowing bolt of force springs from your fingertip and speeds to its target.
You must succeed on a ranged touch attack to hit your target. The bolt deals 1d4+1 force damage per caster level (maximum 15d4+15). Specific parts of a creature can't be singled out. Objects are not damaged by the spell.You guys are hung up on this orb thing. Bolts are where it's at, baby!
Hahaha. I like it. I particularly like that it shares the magic missile style damage increase, even though it would get the same average damage by just using a d6 instead. Seems more in line with how force spells already have a track record of working (like a big ball of magic missile you have to aim). It's essentially exactly what we've been arguing for people to do instead of wanting Orb spells as they were. Capped at 15d6 (essentially), no save, but still SR, and switched to evocation. If I recall orbs were level 5 spells? But they also had save or penalty conditions so I think level 4 is appropriate.
Nicely done.
Orbs were level 4. Easier to metamagic them, expecially with the Arcane Thesis (another What The Fey feat, that from 3.5 PHII - errataed to be MORE BROKEN).
Force is very powerful since far less creatures are immune. i would cap it to 10d4+10. I like the magic missile pattern too :)
another thing I don't love so much of these spells is that they beat hard evasion classes.
I wish monks could throw back touch attack spells to you as they did in 3.0 epic :(
could be something interesting.. a feat for monk able to make them swict on and off their spell resistance fro free, and 1/day make it shut down for a spell reflection effect ^_^
EDIT: I filled the post with emotes O_o
Note that in 3.5 it was possible to metamagic spells up to essentially make them No Save, You Die effects.
4th level Orbs max at 15 dice, btw, and non-Force have secondary effects.
Ranged Touch is often an auto-hit if you bother to invest at all (Abj Champ levels, anyone?). Against things with high Touch AC, you True Strike or use a different spell.
You can damage Golems and things inside an A-M Shell.
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Using Arcane Thesis and Arcane Mastery, an Empowered, Twinned, Admixtured Magic Missile spell, possibly with a Maximized Rod, and Maybe using Sudden Split Ray or something, you could EASILY get Force damage effects into the 300+ range. I remember seeing a build where you could take out a Great Wyrm Red Dragon in one round quite easily with a damage build.
Force Missile Mage meant you punched Shield Spells and broaches, and your missiles were 7 instead of five. Have an Acid Sheathe up for +1 dmg/die, and Argent Savant so you're doing d6's. The above combo yields 42d6+84 dmg (maxed), +50% empowered, or 336 +21d6 dmg (~410), took a 6th or 7th level slot with Metamagic Spell, and Assay Spell Resistance giving +10 to SR checks meant auto-passing SR against a bad guy. Change Acid Sheathe to Cold Sheathe and cold dmg, use against a Red dragon, you're doing 615 points of damage with your first spell.
Then Quicken the next one and finish him.
Do the same thing with Scorching Ray, where Split Ray is free, and Archmage to change the damage to Cold, and it's not hard, either.
Essentially, a powerful blaster mage is No Save You Die. Will Saves? Fort Saves? Who needs them! I hit the enemy, he dies...or is so slammed down he's basically finished.
Thus Paizo has to be verrrry careful about how they are top ending blasting spells. Basically, wizards should be about AoE's softening up multiple targets, not about doing massive amounts to one of them. Blasting is another SoL effect if you build for it.
===Aelryinth
Now that I think about it, it might be better as a 5th level spell.
It would A: Be more in line with 5th level damage spells like cone of cold and flame strike, which cap at 15 (well, druids get it as a 4th level, but they're druids).
B: Act as a higher level spell, overall.
I see this as something an evoker, magus, EK or AT would want pretty bad.
10th level caster: 35 average damage. Evoker: 40 average. Rog 3, Wiz (evoker) 3, AT 6 (9th level caster)with SA added: 43 average.
Now that I re-read that, I'd keep it at 4th. Druids shouldn't have an edge on dedicated arcane blasters. Certain characters would love it. A reliable ranged blast that works on incorporeal and other hard-to-hurt types would be a nice addition to their repertoire. More "god"-focused casters would give it a pass for other spells.
All of the orbs spells capped at 15d6, so idk why a lot of people are saying that they had no cap.
All the orb spells did d6 damage per CL, capping at 15d6, save orb of force, which capped at 10d6 instead.
They all had a fortitude save to negate the side effect, but not the damage, since you had to hit with a ranged touch attack anyways.
I see no reason why these are broken.
Furthermore, idk why everyone is throwing a fit about them being conjuration. People act like its gonna take an act of God to change the school from conjuration to evocation, which all it takes is a simple edit on a computer. Not a big deal. This type of thinking is basically, "Paizo just brings things straight over from 3.5 without balancing/changing/making better/etc." That can't possibly be the case, since they added things to the core classes, changed feats, condensed skills, etc. People are acting like the orbs are impossible to change.
Change them to evocation and give them SR yes. Not a big deal. Not broken. And if evocation is so bad as a school of magic, couldn't it use some more spells like this to be more viable?
Just for the record, I think evocation is one of the better schools of magic.
Contributor, RPG Superstar 2008 Top 4, Legendary Games
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I'm surprised about the degree of attachment people have to this single spell concept. Several comments in the vein of "If I had known orb of XYZ spells wouldn't be in Ultimate Magic, I never would have bought the book/the book is lame" and the like. Not that folks aren't entitled to their favorite things they wished to see, but the degree of importance attached to this one thing above all others is what I find surprising.
As for the orb spells, I'd probably agree with folks who feel like the spells should be evocations, and for my money they shouldn't bypass SR.
"But I want to bypass SR with my spellcaster!"
Too bad.
That's the price of being a SPELL caster; dealing with SPELL resistance.
Fighter types deal damage and have to deal with damage resistance (and regular AC, for that matter, as opposed to often-trivial touch AC).
This is just the spellcaster's flavor of dealing with a balanced universe. Design-wise, I'm not wholly convinced that making the conjuration/evocation distinction as it pertains to SR was a good idea in the first place. I understand the rationale for it (most easily expressed as using magical energy (e.g., telekinesis) to move somebody (SR) vs. using it to throw a rock at them (no SR)). I don't think it hurts the game to have SR apply across the board.
But that's just me.
I think it's less a 'dealing with SR' problem then a 'damage spell having to deal with SR' problem. There's enough problems dealing decent damage with blaster magic to worry about SR, too. Blaster magic in paizo isn't even CLOSE to save or die.
And being able to do something besides grease on golems is useful, too.
==Aelryinth
And being able to do something besides grease on golems is useful, too.
beside Disintegrate the floor, walls, conjured creatures, buffing allies...
IMHO is a good thing that situations like that needs the wizard thinking outside the box.
Hahaha. I like it. I particularly like that it shares the magic missile style damage increase, even though it would get the same average damage by just using a d6 instead.No. Just made it up. XDIs that from UM?Bolt of Force
School: evocation [force] Level: sor/wiz 4
Casting time: one standard action
Range: medium (100 ft. + 10 ft./level)
Target: one creature
Duration: instantaneous
Saving throw: none Spell Resistance: yesA glowing bolt of force springs from your fingertip and speeds to its target.
You must succeed on a ranged touch attack to hit your target. The bolt deals 1d4+1 force damage per caster level (maximum 15d4+15). Specific parts of a creature can't be singled out. Objects are not damaged by the spell.You guys are hung up on this orb thing. Bolts are where it's at, baby!
The magic missile damage thing was intentional. Yes, it's cool for consistency, but more importantly, it affects the damage the spell can do when modified with feats, rods, etc.
It's a little less. Empowered 10d fireball: 5th level slot, 52.5 average damage, save for half.
Empowered 10d bolt of force: 6th level slot, 47.5 average damage, no save.
That's a piddly amount of damage for that level of spell, and like magic missile, a waste of time unless you're trying to hurt creatures with high reflex saves, evasion, or incorporeality. It makes up for the low damage with the ability to hurt things that would laugh at a fireball, like a ghost or a high-level rogue.
You have to remember that a lot of "god" spells just don't work on flying, incorporeal, spell resistant or otherwise difficult targets. This spell, in conjunction with mage's sword, or even magic missile, gives evocation [force] damage a chance to hurt incorporeal creatures your fighters and archers are missing at least half the time without ghost touch weapons or similar magic.
I'm on board with the majority who saw the orb spells as seriously broken and counterintuitive. "Benicio's (ha!) Bolt of Force" is not, IMHO, even with a 15d cap. It simply fills a niche.
Regarding the other energy-type orb spells, I think that if they're made evocations, do 1d6/level, allow saves and SR, etc., and carry no rider effects, they'd be okay. The sonic one did less damage, IIRC, but could deafen the target, making it useful in its own way. You could even make it a bard-only spell, and it would be ok.
"An orb of sound about 3 inches across shoots from your palm at its target dealing 1D6 points of sound damage per caster level (maximum 15D6). You must succeed on ranged touch attack to hit your target. A creature struck by the orb take damage and becomes deafened by the sound for 1 round. A successful fortitude save negates the deafened effect, but does not reduce damage.
Bug NotesEdit: This spell was changed in later versions of the game to match its pen and paper statistics of 1d4 damage per caster level as opposed to 1d6. The in-game spell description doesn't seem to reflect this change."
It doesn't overshadow shout, because the deafness effect of shout lasts for 2d6 rounds, and you don't have to roll to hit with shout. It's just a matter of what you're trying to do.
The orb of acid version should also be evocation, and work like the rest, allowing a save and SR.
Thoughts?
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Orb of force...create a non magical orb of magical force...that right there was the death of orb spells for me. I am okay with the orb spells going in evocation with SR yes. Orb spells in conjuration was somebody at WotC playing their pet favorite class mut be uber (aka ed stark and the druid). It made evocation even MORE of a no brainer banned school and conjuration even more of a no brainer specialist school. That is just piss poor game design and I honestly do not want to see spells like the orb spells back in conjuration...and this is from somebody who is a cheesemonkey wizard player.Acid Splash.
Because we have no none magical acid? Oh wait we do. Now you explain how you can have a non magical orb of MAGICAL force. Yeah thought so. The orb spells was somebody at wizards Fing up the game royally so that their favorite school of magic can do even more. The orb spells don't make sense thematically (conjured damage should be DoT...yes yes acid spalsh, it's a cantrip and kinda irrelivant get over it), nor does it make any sense balance wise. They are a horrible spell and I as instant damage conjuration spells, they stay in 3.5. Re-doing them as DoT or making them evocation? Sure thing. In fact evocation getting any boost is a good thing.