I have to agree with the OP and even Arnwyn (and I almost never agree with him). :)
The ultimate stuff I will get in PDF only, and if I ever get back to GM'ing I'll likely only allow core and apg as usual.
I did the same in the 3.5 days. Too much splat IMHO. I doubt in in the "minority" either with my opinions among GMs.
A once per year book along the veins of Oriental adventures or the Manual of the Planes would be ok but that's about my limit. I'd hate to see Paizo following Wizards footsteps with this.
A stick has two ends, you know.
Most do. Hence my request that people stop painting those on the other end as morons.
I would love to see a product like the old X-Com computer game where your purchased buildings and upgrades for a base and then built a layout using tiles.
I should think Paizo would be interested in expanding their Kingmaker Kingdom system, considering how well that sold.
Nice and generic, too.
It's not a ridiculous strawman, it's a legitimate point that's being made by using absurdity. It's directed at those that have posted "I'm not buying UM or UC or any other player option books past APG". If that is your choice, then you are already a non-customer. Paizo has to listen to the people actually spending money.I buy plenty of stuff from Paizo. As a customer, I am expressing my preferences for what they produce in the future, which includes asking that they not produce books which I feel would be bad for the line in the long run.
Since you seem to be fond of hyperbole, I suppose you'd be ok with Paizo producing the "Pathfinder guide to kidnapping children?" You know, since you aren't personally in the market for books about kidnapping children, why do you care?
Yep, they can produce it if they want to.
If it's a part of their AP line for an AP, I won't buy it. I don't do the APs.
If it's part of their core rules as an expansion for GMs on how to do plotting, including kidnap scenarios and other ways to torment Paladins, then I might or might not buy it. I would complain about the title, and I might refuse to buy it unless they change the title. I wouldn't boycot the company over it.
If it's a real manual on how to kidnap children, then I don't have to worry about it, because they'll be out of business in 6 months. I don't have to boycot them at all.
So yeah, if they want to publish it, go for it.
I plan to get the Ultimate Magic book, but am hesitant to purchase the Ultimate Combat. Mainly because I don't use guns in my fantasy setting nor do I do Oriental Adventures. :(
You realize that will be maybe 10% of UC? The other 90% will be more options, feats, archtypes and other goodies for fighters, rogues, barbarians, rangers, paladins, cavaliers, inquisitors, bards and any other character who deals violence damage to their opponents.
Player options != rule books.I'd love to see books about the mechanics behind the screen as it were. Easy ways to implement new homebrewed things such as races, traits, feats and the like and how to make sure they're correctly balanced.
Player Options are rule books, they have rules for how the player can use those options.
Your examples (which by the way, I'd love to see!) are also player options, as they are used to give the GM ways to expand the options in his game.
The problem is, from a business standpoint, the book you suggest above (which again, I would LOVE!) will not sell as well with players if it requires the GM to make things. If it has pregenerated things made and rules for how they were made, then that would be popular with players as well. But then again, you have a book with direct player options in it.
You are correct. I stated it too simply.
Rule books do not necessarily mean player options. Evil Lincoln is saying he won't buy player option books, not saying he won't buy rule books. They are not the same thing in this case.
Now I totally agree that my idea is player option, but I think it would sell well among players, just for the novelty of looking up how it works. I know I'd let my players bring me homebrewed up feats or spells to review if a book that outlined their creation existed.
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I would love to see a product like the old X-Com computer game where your purchased buildings and upgrades for a base and then built a layout using tiles.I should think Paizo would be interested in expanding their Kingmaker Kingdom system, considering how well that sold.
Nice and generic, too.
Yes! Kingdoms, strongholds, guilds, secret societies, politics... GMs and players alike would get a lot of use out of that!
I would love to see a product like the old X-Com computer game where your purchased buildings and upgrades for a base and then built a layout using tiles.I should think Paizo would be interested in expanding their Kingmaker Kingdom system, considering how well that sold.
Nice and generic, too.
Agreed,
I am very annoyed that that those rules are AP only. :( I would like a nice crunch book with them all in it.However, I am not going to say "I won't buy your RPG line if you don't stop putting bits of crunch in your APs.". :)
If it's a real manual on how to kidnap children
...would buy.
Ransom == profit.
I think the great thing about both playing pc's and being DM gives you a good perspective on things. i've seen classes that as a player im like !!!!! but then the Dm creeps in and goes umm hmm no hells no
(for example there was a swords and sorcery book that had a "Temporal mage in it granted d4 with no skill points HOWEVER they got the ability to go back in time by like years? helllllll NO not to mention the future self could leave messages for you f you temporal mage f you) if it directly doubles the DMs work ITS BAD
However good balanced additional options for characters is always appreciated for both of my perspectives. Sometimes i get an idea in my head and try to make a character around it. for example an eskimo hunter, or a gladiator. and its nice when the system allows for the subtle nuances i think the Splat books help people get the character they want, but yeah i could take a break from that stuff for awhile and see other ways of filling out the game.
However, I am not going to say "I won't buy your RPG line if you don't stop putting bits of crunch in your APs.". :)
There's the strawman. Seriously.
Let's talk about what we would buy, if we're saturated on character options.
I wanna hold up Kingdom Rules as the kind of book I was looking to hear about with this thread. Let's focus on that!
Tell me more about this Child Abduction sourcebook of yours, MDT...
I can't keep up with this thread anymore. People are posting to quickly and I doubt my posts have much impact. :(
But it obvious that people feel very passionate on both sides...maybe people should just step back and take 5 minutes.
I am done with new rule books. I got the APG, ultimate magic does not call to me, and combat became lets make it super Asian power hour, for no reason.
I just do not want more rules for what is already a rules heavy game. And I am don e with the Ap's until they stop forcing me to buy the new books to play them.
I think forcing folks to have new optional books to play the AP's is a bad, bad call.
Anyhow the point is I am done with splat books.
I agree that the pace of Player Option books should slow down, which people have said Paizo has stated is their intention. It's good to get it all out there now.
That said, I still hope and expect to see at least one or two player option style books per year. It's simply what sells. I enjoy new stuffs, too. I think that continued infusion of new options is good for business and also for fun for many people. Those who it is not fun for can tone it down or not use the new options. (If it's not fun for you but it IS fun for member of your group....well that's a crappy situation, but highlights the issue perfectly IMHO).
The suggestions people have already made in this thread sound amazing. If we could get one or two books like that per year alongside one new BIG player option book per year, then I think it would strike a good balance.
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I plan to get the Ultimate Magic book, but am hesitant to purchase the Ultimate Combat. Mainly because I don't use guns in my fantasy setting nor do I do Oriental Adventures. :(You realize that will be maybe 10% of UC? The other 90% will be more options, feats, archtypes and other goodies for fighters, rogues, barbarians, rangers, paladins, cavaliers, inquisitors, bards and any other character who deals violence damage to their opponents.
If the gun fluff is only 10% then i'm sure i'll buy the book. But if its in the 50% area I will be extremely hesitant. Just because half the book I won't use.
I should think Paizo would be interested in expanding their Kingmaker Kingdom system, considering how well that sold.
Agreed,
I am very annoyed that that those rules are AP only. :( I would like a nice crunch book with them all in it.However, I am not going to say "I won't buy your RPG line if you don't stop putting bits of crunch in your APs.". :)
Actually, I think it is good that they start out in APs. It's let's them see some use before they are expanded further and revised for more general use. Just like the Chase rules or Haunts that ended up in the GMG after being first tried in APs.
So if you want to be on the cutting edge, subscribe to the AP line. If you want the "stable" release, stick the to the Rules line.
5 posts a minute... what have I wrought?
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I would prefer they didn't do this, and opposed the introduction of the APG in our group for this reason.
My main concern however is what impact will the continuing new major player option books have on organized play? It raises the apparent bar for new and existing GMs in what they need to read and own (and carry around) to be able to GM. So does this mean less organised play GMs?
Of course if the GM doesn't own the book they could legitimately ask the player to produce it and just ban anything from it if they can't. Though I can't see that being very constructive to organised play.
There is also the issue that an existing OP character may feel underpowered or disadvantaged compared to others using the new rules. Rightly or wrongly.
I am done with new rule books. I got the APG, ultimate magic does not call to me, and combat became lets make it super Asian power hour, for no reason.
I just do not want more rules for what is already a rules heavy game. And I am don e with the Ap's until they stop forcing me to buy the new books to play them.
I think forcing folks to have new optional books to play the AP's is a bad, bad call.
Anyhow the point is I am done with splat books.
I'll echo the sentiment of this if not the semantics.
I'd also like to point out that for many years the bread and butter of the D&D brand was stand alone modules, or modules in a short series. I would love to see Paizo focus a lot more on their Pathfinder Modules section, and produce some great stand alone adventures, or short series adventures for various levels.
I guess I'll play Devil's Advocate. I'd rather have one big hardback with all the extra material in it than haul a dozen or more 32-page suppliments around.
I agree. Also, from an economic standpoint, it's more affordable for me to buy one large book than a half dozen 32 page supplements. Perhaps if I had a laptop or tablet computer I could utilize the .pdfs at my game table, but as I do not, a large volume of new additions is my favorite option.
If the gun fluff is only 10% then i'm sure i'll buy the book. But if its in the 50% area I will be extremely hesitant. Just because half the book I won't use.I plan to get the Ultimate Magic book, but am hesitant to purchase the Ultimate Combat. Mainly because I don't use guns in my fantasy setting nor do I do Oriental Adventures. :(You realize that will be maybe 10% of UC? The other 90% will be more options, feats, archtypes and other goodies for fighters, rogues, barbarians, rangers, paladins, cavaliers, inquisitors, bards and any other character who deals violence damage to their opponents.
I would expect gunslinger to take up about 8 pages, like the Magus in UM. I would expect 2-4 pages of new firearms. So about 5% of a 256 page book. Even if there is twice as much guns material, that is still 10%.
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5 posts a minute... what have I wrought?
You've opened the end of the world!!!! The planets are aligning too! It's the sign of the end of the end of the beginning...!
Personally, my group is hitting the max after this latest of the Ulimate Magic and Ultimage Combat books. I'm gonna be picking those books up but that's probably about it for the crunch books for a looong time.
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I am done with new rule books. I got the APG, ultimate magic does not call to me, and combat became lets make it super Asian power hour, for no reason.
I just do not want more rules for what is already a rules heavy game. And I am don e with the Ap's until they stop forcing me to buy the new books to play them.
I think forcing folks to have new optional books to play the AP's is a bad, bad call.
Anyhow the point is I am done with splat books.
I'll echo the sentiment of this if not the semantics.
I'd also like to point out that for many years the bread and butter of the D&D brand was stand alone modules, or modules in a short series. I would love to see Paizo focus a lot more on their Pathfinder Modules section, and produce some great stand alone adventures, or short series adventures for various levels.
Actually, the Modules line was knocked down to bi-monthly from monthly because of low sales. The market did somewhat change since the 80s.
I am going to post a dissenting opinion here and say that I want more APG/UM/UC style books. I have never understood the concept that just because a company has made a product that product HAS to be used in every game and HAS to be allowed.
I DO understand where too much at once can be overwhelming but one good player option book a year with some well thought out classes, PrC's, spells, feats and what have you would be great.
But more options, to me, is always better than less, even if I never get to use all of them or even most of them. More options is more idea's that can help fuel my imagination and that is always a good thing.
So no, I do not feel as you do and I do not want them to stop producing interesting and well balance player option books, maybe just slow down how often they do them slightly.
I agree with this, but I am also pretty good at quickly learning a book if I have too. I understand players will want to use new options, but they just have to accept the fact that using it as soon as they buy it is not always an option. They can wait for the current GM to learn the book or they can GM.
A lot of people, probably more than many GM's like if they were their players, had not issues learning WoTC's splat books and they came out with one about every month. Knocking that down to 2 a year is much more manageable. At this rate Paizo can put rule books out for the next couple of years and not catch WoTC. You also don't have to worry about a lot of unbalanced stuff so--->you get less stuff to have to look over, and more of it is quality material.
Actually, the Modules line was knocked down to bi-monthly from monthly because of low sales. The market did somewhat change since the 80s.I am done with new rule books. I got the APG, ultimate magic does not call to me, and combat became lets make it super Asian power hour, for no reason.
I just do not want more rules for what is already a rules heavy game. And I am don e with the Ap's until they stop forcing me to buy the new books to play them.
I think forcing folks to have new optional books to play the AP's is a bad, bad call.
Anyhow the point is I am done with splat books.
I'll echo the sentiment of this if not the semantics.
I'd also like to point out that for many years the bread and butter of the D&D brand was stand alone modules, or modules in a short series. I would love to see Paizo focus a lot more on their Pathfinder Modules section, and produce some great stand alone adventures, or short series adventures for various levels.
I wasn't aware of that, thanks for pointing it out. You are very right about the market changing. I remember walking into my flgs and seeing two entire shelves covered in modules, with only a portion of one shelf with rule books on it. I have yet to walk into my, now, flgs and see anything from Paizo other than rule books.
I am THE RAVINGDORK, and this is my RAVE: I don't think Paizo should stop making new player options. However, I DO think they should refocus on options that we can use with EXISTING characters (feats, spells, gear), rather than those that would require us to create whole new characters (base classes, archetypes, etc.).
New books I would like to see: Kingmaker building expanded, psionics, epic rules, and more monsters (including NPC guides and expanded/clarified monsters as PC rules).
Actually, the Modules line was knocked down to bi-monthly from monthly because of low sales. The market did somewhat change since the 80s.I wasn't aware of that, thanks for pointing it out. You are very right about the market changing. I remember walking into my flgs and seeing two entire shelves covered in modules, with only a portion of one shelf with rule books on it. I have yet to walk into my, now, flgs and see anything from Paizo other than rule books.
People like the APs better than one off modules. The AP line is still what pays the bills at Paizo. I for one wouldn't mind seeing more modules, but I'm probably in the minority.
If the cost of the hobby, .16% of your minimum wage income, is too much, I would say you should just get out now. You have 18 mouths to feed.
Or student loans.
New books I would like to see: Kingmaker building expanded, psionics, epic rules, and more monsters (including NPC guides and expanded/clarified monsters as PC rules).
ooo ooo
A book that revises the (cumbersome) treasure system AND has new treasure AND has a more flavorful and balanced component-based item creation system! With rarity rules! 330 pages! I will buy!
Tell me more about this Child Abduction sourcebook of yours, MDT...
That was Bugleymans, so you'll have to ask him.
However, on a similar vein, I could see some use for plot building/plot device/NPC characterization as a book. A GM resource for how to put plots together, how to make sure they hang and pass the whiff of cheese test. The GMG did some of that, but I think almost an in depth plot building methodology would help (ripped off from creative writing text books) could be useful.
However, just because I think it would be useful to new GMs (and to a lesser extent old GMs) does not mean I think it would be worth doing for Paizo. I just don't see it being popular enough.
I am done with new rule books. I got the APG, ultimate magic does not call to me, and combat became lets make it super Asian power hour, for no reason.
I just do not want more rules for what is already a rules heavy game. And I am don e with the Ap's until they stop forcing me to buy the new books to play them.
I think forcing folks to have new optional books to play the AP's is a bad, bad call.
Anyhow the point is I am done with splat books.
Agree completely.
I have trouble believing that people won't buy AP's because they don't have Cowboys and Ninjas in them.
Too much information spread out over too many books is a problem when you need all of them to make a character - whether it's 6 300 page books or 12 150 page books.
The original core classes, with the possible exception of the Monk and Druid, are fairly vanilla and conform to common fantasy tropes. Better variation comes through with well-designed PrC's; not creating a new core class to fill every tiny niche people can come with.
To a new gamer, PF is already extremely intimidating and the buy-in cost is becoming extremely high. No one is going buy anything, whether it's campaign, module, or crunch, if they have to shell out $500+ first for "core" just to make it work.
Look what happened to Star Wars Saga Ed. Every book assumed you had bought the book before it and to make any class you had to flip through every single book to see all your options. It was annoying even if you had been buying the books as they came out and if you hadn't it was impossible. A game can only handle so much of that before it collapses under its own weight.
SJ
Couldn't tell if you were serious or not or if it was intentional or not, but, regardless, it was funny...and I laughed about it twice, just in case the first way I laughed about it was incorrect.I'm glad somebody caught my irony. :)Hahahahahahaha. I saw that before you edited it. Nice catch considering you did the SAME thing in return with your original "silver spoon" comment and such. Tsk. Tsk.
Edit: Nevermind you didn't edit it, it just cut it off at the quote limit. Either way. Gold.
Now I laughed twice at your post. :) Once when I read it, and again as I reread it to reply to it. Good stuff.
flame-baitingWell it's quite obvious you have absolutely no arguments. So I'll say this. Buy the books or get out.
Wait, so you're saying if I don't buy every book Paizo publishes I should stop partaking of the hobby altogether? I don't think anyone currently working here at Paizo would back you up on that particular kind of consumerism. Or lack of consumerism as the case may be. BTW what were your arguments again? That I should buy books because...