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Ok, I've heard from two different people that they will either quit PFS when the Magus comes into play, or won't play at a table with a Magus.
I've read over the playtest version of the Magus, and I want to ask, why?
What is so wrong with the Magus, that you will refuse to play PFS or play with one at a PFS table?
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From the thread you came from...
Rabble, rabble! New content! Rabble, rabble! I will walk away from any table with a Magus! Rabble!Detect Internet Sarcasm is registering one Moderate aura.
-Matt
Perhaps this particular comment was sarcasm, and I thought it might be, but from another thread awhile back, someone had mentioned about quitting because of the gunslinger, and someone else mentioned quitting because of the Magus.
I asked then what was wrong with the Magus and got ignored.
So since Ultimate Magic is out in a week or so, I was just curious as to what the major issue with the Magus is.
I can see, upon initially reading the class, that it can appear to be overpowering. I briefly scanned through the playtest thread, and there did seem to be some discussion on the overpowering bit.
I would imagine my main concern would be getting to do both a touch spell and a melee attack in the same round similar to two-weapon fighting. This seems to be the most overpowering thing I could find, but when really analyzed, it only really happens a few times tops. In PFS, a few times might be all they need, but still.
So, that's why I'm asking. What is it that is so wrong with the Magus, that people are actually willing to quit OP over it?
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Ok, I've heard from two different people that they will either quit PFS when the Magus comes into play, or won't play at a table with a Magus.
I've read over the playtest version of the Magus, and I want to ask, why?
What is so wrong with the Magus, that you will refuse to play PFS or play with one at a PFS table?
I would be one of those people.
I have no intention of quitting PFS but I'll be dodging playing with one whenever possible. Magus is a poorly designed class that lends itself to the type of player I have no interest in playing with. I'd rather not play than have a poor experience or play with a player/character that hurts the game for me.
I believe some people believe it will be too much like the 1e/2e elven fighter/magic-user and become one of the dominant classes in the game. My own playtesting of the class as of the final playtest made me feel it was a well balanced class but it suffered from the same problem as the evoker. Damage from spell does not scale well in PFPRG so what looks good on paper does not translate into a character that can out damage a raging barbarian. I expect every magus in PFS to eventually take the intensified spell feat to try and keep up.
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So essentially folks have a problem with it based on assumptions and personal taste. Got it.
I guess it will be determined at a later date if the assumptions hold true.
FYI: I was considering playing a Magus, because I thought the flavor somewhat interesting. So you are saying that if you sat down at a table with me, and I pulled out my Magus (ok, that sounded wrong), you'd immediately get up and leave? That would be kinda sad, because I don't believe I'm the type of player you are referencing here, and so we'd miss out on a chance to roleplay together because of a preconceived bias.
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Well it depends on the situation.
If it was a convention I would go find another table to sit at or game to play. If the table somehow needed me to make it legal I would ask you to play something else or if you're in a situation where the magus is the only character you can play I might consider playing a pregen.
If you were part of my regular local gameday group you would have coordinated ahead of time which character you were planning to bring to a gameday and I would just opt out on that day.
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Well it depends on the situation.
If it was a convention I would go find another table to sit at or game to play. If the table somehow needed me to make it legal I would ask you to play something else or if you're in a situation where the magus is the only character you can play I might consider playing a pregen.
Awww, so mature.
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Awww, so mature.Well it depends on the situation.
If it was a convention I would go find another table to sit at or game to play. If the table somehow needed me to make it legal I would ask you to play something else or if you're in a situation where the magus is the only character you can play I might consider playing a pregen.
Well it is better then "I Am Quitting the PFS!!!!!!"
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Well it is better then "I Am Quitting the PFS!!!!!!"Awww, so mature.Well it depends on the situation.
If it was a convention I would go find another table to sit at or game to play. If the table somehow needed me to make it legal I would ask you to play something else or if you're in a situation where the magus is the only character you can play I might consider playing a pregen.
I'm not entirely sure if I wouldn't prefer a nerdrage quit - last thing I would want at my table during a con is to see somebody walk away because somebody at the table is ... playing a Magus?
Sorry, the logic of this escapes me.
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Does it really matter that it's a magus? Someone at the table is playing something I don't like/approve of. I would have a similar response if I was seated at a table with someone playing a character that's particularly disruptive, annoying, or offensive. It's not my place to tell you how to have fun and it's silly for me to try to change your mind.
I'd rather go somewhere else where my fun and your fun don't have to clash.
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I would have a similar response if I was seated at a table with someone playing a character that's particularly disruptive, annoying, or offensive.
Outside of your local scene though, you generally won't find this out until it's too late.
Better to just walk when they say they are playing a Magus. Or Gunslinger. Or Ninja. Or Summoner. Or Inquisitor. Or Gnome. Or Barbarian. Or Bard. At least then you aren't making things weird at the table, just difficult for the Coordinators.
As you can probably tell, I don't get it. I see your point about fun, and everyone's idea of it being different. Of course. Your version of fun just doesn't make sense to me, but that's always your choice. Enjoy!
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Well it depends on the situation.
If it was a convention I would go find another table to sit at or game to play. If the table somehow needed me to make it legal I would ask you to play something else or if you're in a situation where the magus is the only character you can play I might consider playing a pregen.
If you were part of my regular local gameday group you would have coordinated ahead of time which character you were planning to bring to a gameday and I would just opt out on that day.
Wow, I could be wrong, as I don't know that I have ever met you before, but if this attitude is how you approach your gaming, I am not sure I'd enjoy my time at the table with you. I hope you don't take offense to that, because we both know that not everyone will enjoy everyone else.
But to expect that because I know you are playing at a table, that I specifically don't play my Magus? I think this is much more deeply seeded than what you originally claimed as a particular style of class that people you don't enjoy gaming with would choose.
It sounds like you are ready to judge the situation before you see it. Your choice of course, but also your loss.
It sounds elitist to me.
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From the thread you came from...
Rabble, rabble! New content! Rabble, rabble! I will walk away from any table with a Magus! Rabble!Detect Internet Sarcasm is registering one Moderate aura.
-Matt
Dang I was hoping it would register as strong. I am of the opinion that new content makes things interesting
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Wow, I could be wrong, as I don't know that I have ever met you before, but if this attitude is how you approach your gaming, I am not sure I'd enjoy my time at the table with you. I hope you don't take offense to that, because we both know that not everyone will enjoy everyone else.
No offense taken.
But to expect that because I know you are playing at a table, that I specifically don't play my Magus? I think this is much more deeply seeded than what you originally claimed as a particular style of class that people you don't enjoy gaming with would choose.
I wouldn't expect any such thing. As I said, my first choice would be to remove myself from the equation. You can play your magus, I have no intention of stopping you. Worst case scenario is I miss out on a slot. I can live with that.
You seemed interested in the anti-magus crowd's stance within PFS. I am simply stating my approach.
It sounds like you are ready to judge the situation before you see it. Your choice of course, but also your loss.
It sounds elitist to me.
You can call it elitist or you can call it been-burned-by-organized-play-and-refuses-to-be-burned-again. In either case I have limited time for table top games these days and I'd rather make what time I do have fun and memorable. There is little organized play does (or can do) to protect you from a crummy experience. It's important you do what you need to protect yourself.
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Gallard, I don't agree with your position, but I respect that you would play a pre-gen to ensure that a table runs. And as long as you're not disrupting a table, you are really only denying yourself.
That said, if I was mustering for a convention, and someone asked to be moved for this reason I would probably not go to great lengths to accomodate them. I would certainly not inconvenience another table by adding a 7th player, or shuffling players who don't want to be moved. And in some cases, this would mean that they are out the chance to play and whatever the admission is for the event.
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Gallard, I don't agree with your position, but I respect that you would play a pre-gen to ensure that a table runs. And as long as you're not disrupting a table, you are really only denying yourself.
That said, if I was mustering for a convention, and someone asked to be moved for this reason I would probably not go to great lengths to accomodate them. I would certainly not inconvenience another table by adding a 7th player, or shuffling players who don't want to be moved. And in some cases, this would mean that they are out the chance to play and whatever the admission is for the event.
I don't expect you to. I do all the organizing for my local gamedays and I've organized cons for LG and LFR in the past. I know how much of a headache it can be. I will gladly miss a slot over playing at a table I don't feel comfortable with. I wouldn't hold it against the coordinator at all.
I simply don't need/want to play badly enough to warrant playing with certain characters and/or players.
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I thought that was where you were coming from on this.
As I said, I don't agree on your point of view on this, but you aren't hampering anyone else's game as long as you aren't overly pressuring someone to switch characters.
I hope that when you see the finalized class in actual play that it will change your mind.
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Awww, so mature.Well it depends on the situation.
If it was a convention I would go find another table to sit at or game to play. If the table somehow needed me to make it legal I would ask you to play something else or if you're in a situation where the magus is the only character you can play I might consider playing a pregen.
Consider it a boon at Gencon there are likely to be 6-7 players at almost every table.
I don't like gunslingers for the same reason other people might complain if Paizo brought out a Modern Warfare supplement and let Cavaliers take Apache helicopters as mounts. It's not the game I thought it was. And there'll no doubt be people who want Apaches and who tell me to quit if I don't like it. I can't figure out what the issue with the Magus is, but each to their own.
I won't quit PFS over gunslingers, nor will I walk away from a table where one is being played as that's tantamount to emotional blackmail against the player. I will simply grin and bear it. However I won't be buying Ultimate Combat because it has Gunslingers in it and I've started looking at other organised play opportunities to see what's out there.
I would definitely walk away from the game if Paizo *did* bring out a Modern Warfare supplement though, just so I don't give them any ideas... :-)
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I don't like gunslingers for the same reason other people might complain if Paizo brought out a Modern Warfare supplement and let Cavaliers take Apache helicopters as mounts. It's not the game I thought it was. And there'll no doubt be people who want Apaches and who tell me to quit if I don't like it. I can't figure out what the issue with the Magus is, but each to their own.
I won't quit PFS over gunslingers, nor will I walk away from a table where one is being played as that's tantamount to emotional blackmail against the player. I will simply grin and bear it. However I won't be buying Ultimate Combat because it has Gunslingers in it and I've started looking at other organised play opportunities to see what's out there.
I would definitely walk away from the game if Paizo *did* bring out a Modern Warfare supplement though, just so I don't give them any ideas... :-)
This is a bit of reductio ad absurdum. Guns are beginning to become a part of the fantasy genre, with all the new literature that now contains them. I think we can all name a few books. I'm no expert, but I think this is a relatively recent paradigm shift in the fantasy genre. Whether or not people personally accept that guns are now a part of fantasy, there are going to be young, new players that read The Dark Tower series and want to play a Gunslinger in this awesome new table top RPG they've just heard has become all the rage (PF of course!).
As the genre changes, so does the RPG that is based out of that genre.
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There is a player with a magus character in my weekly PFS home game. We are now at 3rd level and have nearly completed enough chronicles to round out 4th. I find him to be no more disrupting than fighter in the party whipping around his zwiehander one shotting foes while decked out in full plate, or the melee witch with her sleep hex, or the cleric of Abadar with all his extra channel energies.
In fact, he flubs up his caster level check more than not to cast defensively. So sometimes yes he is Mr. Badass using the old hex blade trick of decimating the BBEG with a swing of his sword combined with shocking grasp, but others he's that under optimized guy in light armor fighting with a 1h weapon and no shield.
I understand that we all want to have our fun and we get sad when that fun is ruined by another player at the table, but I ask the OP, how many sessions have you played with a magus in the party? I'm so tired of walk away from the table statements that start with "If I ever end up at a table with a .... blah blah blah... then I'm gonna walk!" when you hardly ever see, "My friends, I have played table after table with.... blah blah blah... and since I rarely enjoyed myself I'd be willing to let Extra Guy from that 7 person table over there have my seat."
I understand that we all want to have our fun and we get sad when that fun is ruined by another player at the table, but I ask the OP, how many sessions have you played with a magus in the party?
My two cents:
There are some things in this world that I have an irrational aversion to (not the magus, but I'm not crazy about people who like to play rogues, for instance), and all of the cajoling in the world won't make me feel otherwise. That's why I call it an "irrational aversion" and not a "topic up for debate". If the guy has had a bad feeling about magus players, that's his own affair (at least as far as I'm concerned).
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I understand that we all want to have our fun and we get sad when that fun is ruined by another player at the table, but I ask the OP, how many sessions have you played with a magus in the party?My two cents:
There are some things in this world that I have an irrational aversion to (not the magus, but I'm not crazy about people who like to play rogues, for instance), and all of the cajoling in the world won't make me feel otherwise. That's why I call it an "irrational aversion" and not a "topic up for debate". If the guy has had a bad feeling about magus players, that's his own affair (at least as far as I'm concerned).
Where it becomes a problem, though, is when someone asks you if you would mind playing a different character because they hate the class you're playing. I think that's over the line. I can understand everyone needs to make concession to accommodate orgplay, but that is just absurd.
-Skeld
Where it becomes a problem, though, is when someone asks you if you would mind playing a different character because they hate the class you're playing. I think that's over the line.
Oh, I agree; I would never do that. I forgot about that part.
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Where it becomes a problem, though, is when someone asks you if you would mind playing a different character because they hate the class you're playing. I think that's over the line. I can understand everyone needs to make concession to accommodate orgplay, but that is just absurd.
-Skeld
What I also find absurd, is the concept that anyone would be pre-judged based on the type of class they wish to play.
Gallard Stormeye has indicated that it isn't so much the class, insomuch as that the class (in his eyes) seems to be the type of class that particular types of players he doesn't enjoy would play. And so, it seems that everyone who would sit down at a table with a Magus is immediately judged to be a bad apple (in his eyes).
Now I understand judgment goes on all the time, and I judge people and things all the time as well.
But I think you could miss out on a great experience if you choose to make snap judgments like this.
Why would anyone ever go to a convention if they are this concerned about playing with players they won't enjoy? Because I guarantee that there will be players that some won't enjoy that will be playing a lot more variety than only Magi.
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Gallard Stormeye has indicated that it isn't so much the class, insomuch as that the class (in his eyes) seems to be the type of class that particular types of players he doesn't enjoy would play. And so, it seems that everyone who would sit down at a table with a Magus is immediately judged to be a bad apple (in his eyes).
The class is also an issue. The 'bad apples' that I'm trying to avoid wouldn't be as empowered if classes like the magus did not exist.
Why would anyone ever go to a convention if they are this concerned about playing with players they won't enjoy? Because I guarantee that there will be players that some won't enjoy that will be playing a lot more variety than only Magi.
Oh, definitely. This past convention I had a bad experience with a player playing a rogue that resulted me adding that player to my personal blacklist. These 'problem players' for me are not solely playing magi.
That said, the rest of the convention was a blast and I was able to play my other 6-7 slots without incident. The lesson I learned from the one bad slot: If you suspect it's going to be a bad experience, play a pregen.
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The lesson I learned from the one bad slot: If you suspect it's going to be a bad experience, play a pregen.
I don't understand this concept. Can you elucidate?
I'll tell you why I don't understand.
If you aren't going to have fun, why would playing a pre-gen make it better?
And if you are going to force yourself to sit at the table (no matter the reasons for it) why would you not just play your character, so they would/could get credit for the play?
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This has kinda got off track here.
Rather than discuss what you'd do if a Magus (or any other class/player type you dislike) was at your table, the original question was, "what's wrong with the Magus?"
Comments that actually started to answer my original question were:
"poorly designed class"
"like the 1e/2e Fighter/Magic-User"
So first of all, why is the Magus a poorly designed class? What is it about the Magus that you find poorly designed?
Why do you think a preponderance of "bad" players (I don't know what the reference to bad would be: power gamers, scene stealers, jack-of-all trades guy who tries to usurp everyone's job, et. al.) choose that type of class? So much so that you'd avoid playing with that type of class all-together?
I listed a couple reasons I thought that might seem to be a bit overpowered, but have also seen a couple comments regarding game play that indicated that those overpowered abilities were mitigated by how few times they can be accomplished in one 24-hour period of game time.
This has kinda got off track here.
Rather than discuss what you'd do if a Magus (or any other class/player type you dislike) was at your table, the original question was, "what's wrong with the Magus?"
Is that really a PFS question, though?
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Well I might be alone in my approach to this but when I'm playing a pregen I don't really care what happens. It's not my character so I'm not really attached to what happens to the character, during the course of the adventure, or what the other characters do.
*If you are a magus/wizard/whatever that insists on dominating every combat before anyone else can act, I don't really care.
*If you are a rogue/bard/whatever that never shuts up during the roleplaying scenes and hogs the spotlight and the DM's time, I don't really care.
*If you are playing a psychopathic cavalier/barbarian/whatever that kills every NPC we meet ultimately making us fail the mission, I don't really care.
If I'm playing a pregen I have nothing to look forward to, no real expectations, and am thus immune to being disappointed or frustrated by other character/player's actions.
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Is that really a PFS question, though?This has kinda got off track here.
Rather than discuss what you'd do if a Magus (or any other class/player type you dislike) was at your table, the original question was, "what's wrong with the Magus?"
I agree that the question is loosely tied to PFS, but if the class is troubled enough that it causes people to change their PFS SOP, then it directly affects PFS.
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This has kinda got off track here.
Rather than discuss what you'd do if a Magus (or any other class/player type you dislike) was at your table, the original question was, "what's wrong with the Magus?"
Comments that actually started to answer my original question were:
"poorly designed class"
"like the 1e/2e Fighter/Magic-User"
So first of all, why is the Magus a poorly designed class? What is it about the Magus that you find poorly designed?
Why do you think a preponderance of "bad" players (I don't know what the reference to bad would be: power gamers, scene stealers, jack-of-all trades guy who tries to usurp everyone's job, et. al.) choose that type of class? So much so that you'd avoid playing with that type of class all-together?
I listed a couple reasons I thought that might seem to be a bit overpowered, but have also seen a couple comments regarding game play that indicated that those overpowered abilities were mitigated by how few times they can be accomplished in one 24-hour period of game time.
Being the PFS forums this isn't really a good place to discuss the class mechanics in depth. As such I'll try to summarize.
*Spellstrike/Spell Combat are overpowered. A -2 penalty to attack rolls and a token concentration check do not balance free action spellcasting. Quicken Spell is a four level adjustment for a reason. This is made even more abusive by Broad Study.
*Novability™. The magus may be balanced over the course of a long 7-10 encounter day but within a limited environment like PFS characters that can easily blow all their resources in a few rounds are extremely powerful and can/will overwhelm combats.
Well I might be alone in my approach to this but when I'm playing a pregen I don't really care what happens. It's not my character so I'm not really attached to what happens to the character, during the course of the adventure, or what the other characters do.
*If you are a magus/wizard/whatever that insists on dominating every combat before anyone else can act, I don't really care.
*If you are a rogue/bard/whatever that never shuts up during the roleplaying scenes and hogs the spotlight and the DM's time, I don't really care.
*If you are playing a psychopathic cavalier/barbarian/whatever that kills every NPC we meet ultimately making us fail the mission, I don't really care.If I'm playing a pregen I have nothing to look forward to, no real expectations, and am thus immune to being disappointed or frustrated by other character/player's actions.
But there is also a problem with playing a pregen rather than a character of your own if you have not earned a chronicle from that scenario yet. And that is that unless Mark and Myrum change the rule in the new Guide, playing a pregen the first time you play a scenario counts as your one time, even though you would not receive a chronicle for it, and any future playing of that scenario would have to be done by the replay rules.
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I don't mean to be cheeky, but what *doesn't* bother you? The roles you mention are the intended roles of characters! Are you complaining that people build effective characters? The reason for that is given below:
PFS modules are short, and so the "time to shine" is equally short. Part of the reason that some players curb-stomp modules is because they're getting to take 1-2 actions that matter a combat, and have 1-2 exchanges that matter with any major NPC. There isn't *time* to do more, so often players build characters to do what they do within the framework of time allotted to them.
I've seen the opposite situation many times too, and it isn't good either -- a bunch of awkward socially inept players who sit there and wait for you to hand them PA/XP/loot. It's a relief to have someone "hog" the spotlight!
Rubia
There's a big difference building an effective character that fulfills his/her role and a character that dominates every encounter without giving others a chance to play or hogs the spotlight and doesn't give others a chance to roleplay.
But that's a discussion for another thread (I know there's been a couple in this forum). Those were just examples of 'problem players' and how playing a pregen helps deal with them.
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I've found that certain player personalities and play styles can be FAR more annoying and disruptive than any possible class or game mechanic.
A responsible considerate player can take any class and work well with other players in games.
A jerk can take any class and completely wreck tables.
Which is why I don't understand loathing directed towards classes. They're just tools. If you want to blame something, blame the users.
-j
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*Spellstrike/Spell Combat are overpowered. A -2 penalty to attack rolls and a token concentration check do not balance free action spellcasting. Quicken Spell is a four level adjustment for a reason. This is made even more abusive by Broad Study.
While I generally agree with you on this topic (though not as strongly), I don't understand this point. Broad Study just allows a multi-class Magus do the same thing. I can't see a Magus3/Cleric8 doing much damage with that ability. Am I missing something?
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A jerk can take any class and completely wreck tables.
Which is why I don't understand loathing directed towards classes. They're just tools. If you want to blame something, blame the users.
Well put, Jason.
I find it hard to believe that there are people out there who think to themselves 'How can I monopolize this module?'. And Gallard, if there is such an abundance of these people in your PFS group, you should probably look for a new group or stop playing altogether, especially if you are just going to walk away from a table or sit there with an underpowered pregen.
No player is going to change anything about how they utilize their characters if it isn't brought to their attention first.
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There's a big difference building an effective character that fulfills his/her role and a character that dominates every encounter without giving others a chance to play or hogs the spotlight and doesn't give others a chance to roleplay.
So now this is about scene-stealers and spotlight-hogs, opposed to just Maguses...magi? That class.
If you think those kinds of people are drawn to that class for whatever reason, or playing up the UP side of their character, sounds like you need a less social outlet of gaming. Play in a homegame instead of becoming so frustrated with people who play half the classes in the game.
Personally, I think if someone asked another played to change what they were playing based purely on the 'i dont like the class' clause, Id probably ask them to find a new table.