Look at Lord of the Rings.The heroes of Lord of the Rings had crazy magic items. Frodo was carrying around a cursed ring of invisibility and was wearing a mithral chain shirt. Aragorn had a magic sword and magical equipment. Legolas was using a magical bow. One of the wee folk had a evil outsider bane shortsword, or something like that. Enough to pierce it's DR and stagger it. Mostly everyone was rocking magical equipment, except for Gimli from what I recall. Samwise and Frodo crossed a mountain range eating magic bread.
Just saying.
lord of the rings was a horrible example of a low magic campaign.
as Ice Titan said, the entire fellowship was rocking magical equipment. mostly of amazing properties beyond what wealth by level can afford.
Lord of the Rings is a good example of a Monty Haul Camapign.
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For myself, the magic mart isn't too bad because the GM has total control over its contents and how many of them exist as is.
The real problem is with crafting rules, that's what I find blasphemous. While there was plenty I disliked about old school, I did enjoy how rare and wondrous magic items were. In AD&D you could craft magic items, but it was VERY discouraged, with only high level spellcasters having the ability, needing all the necessary materials, and requiring an exhaustive process that left them with little else to do for months.
I never saw anyone ever make an item back in the day. One time we went on a long journey to go to a wizards guild where we contracted a high level wizard to make our party a set of rings of invisibility. It cost us a good amount of our dragon's treasure haul, but it was worth having a whole party invisible, and back then you stayed invisible as long as the ring was worn.
In terms of getting magic items, you mostly found them. You might be able to buy existing ones from rare merchants, but what was there is all that was there. The DMs also made things a little easier. If there was a Paladin in the party then at some point you'd hear a rumor or legend of where to find a holy avenger, but otherwise it was whatever you stumbled across.
You got what you got, and you liked it!
So the 3.0+ era is plagued with this open house for magic items, which just mucks with the kind of tone that I always enjoyed.
Usually in my campaigns you can craft most consumables, but permanent magic items are something from a lost and bygone era. Permanent magic items are basically artifacts, and not the technological medium of the day. They reflect on an older time when things were greater and the world was more infused with magic, classic Tolkien type stuff.
There might be a few people who can still make permanent magic items, but they are rare individuals who know ancient secrets and are powerful enough to pull off the crafting, but they don't sit around cranking out items,...
+1.
My sentiments exactly, although I've had better experiences with crafting.
The Fellowship did not have a wealth of magic items. The list is pretty thin, really, and Frodo by far had the most of anyone in the party. I am not aware of a single magic item that was used or carried by Aragorn, Gimli, Legalos, Boromir or the other hobbits, with the exception of the matching elven cloaks, the magic miracle-grow Sam carried home and the rope Sam and Frodo used.
Everything else is described as what we would call a "masterwork" item. Narsil, re-forged as Anduril, was a historically important sword and a sword of elvish make, but it showed no magical properties at all, not even glowing in the presence of goblins like Sting or Glamdring.
As far as low magic campaigns and the lack of magic shops are concerned, I take a similar view as the OP, but I am not as strict about it. A typical "magic shop" in my campaigns will have a reasonable collection of potions, wands and scrolls, and some basic magical trinkets, but even if they had a +1 sword, it would not be on display, it would be something sold in a private session with a clearly important and wealthy client.
I like the idea of keeping magic magical and I am doing some things in my new campaign to keep magic from being boring. I'll see if it works.
if you want to discourage magic mart
that means you must give your PCs the benefits of the 'Big 6' in some form.
the 'Big 6' are a neccessity for everyone
Big 6
Magic Weapon
Magic Armor
resistance bonus to saving throws item
natural armor bonus to AC item
deflection bonus to AC item
Attribute boosters
They are very, very popular, but with good encounter design, they are not at all a necessity.if you want to discourage magic mart
that means you must give your PCs the benefits of the 'Big 6' in some form.
the 'Big 6' are a neccessity for everyone
The Cr 16 Horned devil with a DC 27 Fort save of be stunned for 2d4 rounds per hit may disagree unless you can tell me how a lvl 16 high fort save class can get to a +16 fort without some of the big six?
sorry, but the published encounters are designed assuming the PCs would have level appropriate pieces of the Big 6 and that the gear would be tailored for thier optimal use. they just disguised it as the wealth by level chart, which is only intended to account for the minimum required permenant static magical bonuses for that level. it's not intended to account for consumables, taxes, living expenses, or the costs of mundane items. like that masterwork sword you used to create your magic weapon.
The age-old problem with 'low-magic' games is where magic items are restricted but casters, magical monsters and problems requiring magic to overcome are just as common as always.
Well, this would just be one of many reasons I don't run modules and use my own campaign world and design my own encounters based on the abilities of the actual parties in my world instead of based on some arbitrary set of statistics that has been "blessed" as the "right and proper" challenge for a level X party.
I suppose if I ran a module I'd have to stick to the "big six" and all the other "assumed items" that a character "has to have" to be viable. But then again, I'm just repeating why I don't run modules.
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They are very, very popular, but with good encounter design, they are not at all a necessity.if you want to discourage magic mart
that means you must give your PCs the benefits of the 'Big 6' in some form.
the 'Big 6' are a neccessity for everyone
The Cr 16 Horned devil with a DC 27 Fort save of be stunned for 2d4 rounds per hit may disagree unless you can tell me how a lvl 16 high fort save class can get to a +16 fort without some of the big six?
Why are you fighting a Horned Devil?
The Cr 16 Horned devil with a DC 27 Fort save of be stunned for 2d4 rounds per hit may disagree unless you can tell me how a lvl 16 high fort save class can get to a +16 fort without some of the big six?
Why are you fighting a Horned Devil?
Because as a average level 16 group of characters you may actually have to fight an equal CR opponent to keep the boy king alive or some such.
Now please stop avoiding it and answer my question.
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The Cr 16 Horned devil with a DC 27 Fort save of be stunned for 2d4 rounds per hit may disagree unless you can tell me how a lvl 16 high fort save class can get to a +16 fort without some of the big six?
Why are you fighting a Horned Devil?
Because as a average level 16 group of characters you may actually have to fight an equal CR opponent to keep the boy king alive or some such.
Now please stop avoiding it and answer my question.
There are plenty of equal CR opponents that don't require the use of DC 27 saves. There are plenty of strategies available to the level 16 party that don't involve toe-to-toe. There are plenty of ways to accept that you just might NOT be able to deal with the save, but can still fight anyway.
In short, no, you probably don't have a +16 to your save, but you don't NEED it. The situation--and the HOW and WHY of the fight, are far more important than the fight itself.
What you're saying is EXACTLY what has been said already in different words. In order to make a low magic game work, you need to run a style of game suited to it (you cannot run the game as it is MADE, but rather must put more effort into design of encounters and more careful consideration of what will kill players that in a regular Pathfinder campaign they would be able to defeat).
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What you're saying is EXACTLY what has been said already in different words. In order to make a low magic game work, you need to run a style of game suited to it (you cannot run the game as it is MADE, but rather must put more effort into design of encounters and more careful consideration of what will kill players that in a regular Pathfinder campaign they would be able to defeat).
Yes. Absolutely. And there's nothing wrong with that. At all. Comes with the territory.
The Cr 16 Horned devil with a DC 27 Fort save of be stunned for 2d4 rounds per hit may disagree unless you can tell me how a lvl 16 high fort save class can get to a +16 fort without some of the big six?
Why are you fighting a Horned Devil?
Because as a average level 16 group of characters you may actually have to fight an equal CR opponent to keep the boy king alive or some such.
Lets be honest here. At level 16 your not even normal humans any more, you are in the realm of mythic heroes and demigods.A low magic setting makes it even more so, past level 6 you are outside of normal mortals.
CR 16 can be a lot of things, It does not have to be a foe you must have the big six to fight.
A side note: I am often amazed how often people want the CR to be one creature in a game that has multiple players.
What you're saying is EXACTLY what has been said already in different words. In order to make a low magic game work, you need to run a style of game suited to it (you cannot run the game as it is MADE, but rather must put more effort into design of encounters and more careful consideration of what will kill players that in a regular Pathfinder campaign they would be able to defeat).Yes. Absolutely. And there's nothing wrong with that. At all. Comes with the territory.
Right...isn't that what everyone on each side is saying? Why is there an argument? Going low magic fundamentally alters the workings of the game and requires very, very careful GMing. If you're good at it go for it. If you're not, expect it to blow up in your face.
Going low magic fundamentally alters the workings of the game and requires very, very careful GMing. If you're good at it go for it. If you're not, expect it to blow up in your face.
I wouldn't say it requires any more care then any homebrew game. Or well any game at all. Every single group is different, heck the same people can run though the same mod with different PC's and have vastly different results.
You almost always have to change things depending upon the group. Low magic isn't any diffident.
Going low magic fundamentally alters the workings of the game and requires very, very careful GMing. If you're good at it go for it. If you're not, expect it to blow up in your face.I wouldn't say it requires any more care then any homebrew game. Or well any game at all. Every single group is different, heck the same people can run though the same mod with different PC's and have vastly different results.
You almost always have to change things depending upon the group. Low magic isn't any diffident.
I would say it. Which is why I did. All games require careful DMing, however when you play with the system as it is built, it does a certain amount of the heavy lifting for you. When you alter the fundamental assumptions the system is built on, such as WBL and magic item availability, you increase the degree of difficulty and level of responsibility upon the DM. To say otherwise is misleading and wrong.
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Going low magic fundamentally alters the workings of the game and requires very, very careful GMing. If you're good at it go for it. If you're not, expect it to blow up in your face.I wouldn't say it requires any more care then any homebrew game. Or well any game at all. Every single group is different, heck the same people can run though the same mod with different PC's and have vastly different results.
You almost always have to change things depending upon the group. Low magic isn't any diffident.
And really, going back to the OP, we aren't even talking about low magic. We're talking about no magic mart. You can still be a walking Christmas tree, just with Amulets of Non-Detection and Wings of Flying and Folding Boats instead of Things of +N.
How is it misleading? No more then not putting folks in a desert game ageist a beast that can only be killed by totally submerging it in water.
You are the GM, if you flip open the page to the monster, read it over {as everyone should) and see it can only be hurt by things your group does not have or gives them saves they can not pass. The you simply do not use it.
It is no harder then running any other game at that level. By level 16 you have alot you MUST take into account.
It is no harder, just different.
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I wouldn't say it requires any more care then any homebrew game. Or well any game at all. Every single group is different, heck the same people can run though the same mod with different PC's and have vastly different results.You almost always have to change things depending upon the group. Low magic isn't any diffident.
Stop making sense. It scares me. :)
And really, going back to the OP, we aren't even talking about low magic. We're talking about no magic mart. You can still be a walking Christmas tree, just with Amulets of Non-Detection and Wings of Flying and Folding Boats instead of Things of +N.Going low magic fundamentally alters the workings of the game and requires very, very careful GMing. If you're good at it go for it. If you're not, expect it to blow up in your face.I wouldn't say it requires any more care then any homebrew game. Or well any game at all. Every single group is different, heck the same people can run though the same mod with different PC's and have vastly different results.
You almost always have to change things depending upon the group. Low magic isn't any diffident.
Right...either way you're changing the fundamental assumptions the game is worked around to a degree. This puts more responsibility on the DM, as the encounters you set up won't be quite what they appear CR wise because the game you are playing is different than the assumptions the PF CR system works under.
Essentially what I'm saying is: If you use the rules as written, there is a certain balance of responsibility on the players to build appropriately powerful PCs and the DM not to overwhelm them. If you shift the balance of responsibility (by limiting player ability to craft effective PCs...through lower point-buy, lower magic, no access to magic items you WANT, etc.) the DM has more responsibility on his part not to overwhelm the players. Basically, you are shifting the balance more to the DM side when you mess with the system as it is designed.
@Seeker: DM discretion is always needed in order to not overwhelm the PCs. However, when you limit the PCs ability to craft effective characters in any way, what you are essentially saying is, "Trust me more than usual, as you may be less powerful, but I will take that into account more than I have had to before....I understand the system we are playing well enough to change it without changing the challenge to you guys."
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Essentially what I'm saying is: If you use the rules as written, there is a certain balance of responsibility on the players to build appropriately powerful PCs and the DM not to overwhelm them. If you shift the balance of responsibility (by limiting player ability to craft effective PCs...through lower point-buy, lower magic, no access to magic items you WANT, etc.) the DM has more responsibility on his part not to overwhelm the players. Basically, you are shifting the balance more to the DM side when you mess with the system as it is designed.
@Seeker: DM discretion is always needed in order to not overwhelm the PCs. However, when you limit the PCs ability to craft effective characters in any way, what you are essentially saying is, "Trust me more than usual, as you may be less powerful, but I will take that into account more than I have...
I can just as easily say that when the DM plays an open game, more responsibility falls on the shoulders of the players to keep up. That's totally not true. It's always the responsibility of the DM to appropriately challenge the players, and the job is not made harder or easier wherever you place the power level.
In truth, it requires no more or less responsibility between the players and the DM in any way. What is required is a continued dialogue between the players and the DM to craft the story they want to tell.
Sylvanite, I totally disagree. The pc's are not limited and not less effective for that setting in the lest.
You seem to think you MUST have the big six for any and every group and setting. This is simply not so. Hell upping the point buy changes things, even 20 points as the game is built on 4 pc's of 15 point buy.
Five players of 20 point buy and its already off the rails. Low magic is simply no harder a change then almost every single GM does every single adventure.
Right. There are many factors a DM must take into account. I concede that point. Adjusting point buy changes the game. A party of more than 4 changes the game. Anything where you alter the assumptions the game is balanced on out of the box alters the responsibility of the GM. I'm just saying that it is a BIG thing to take into account when you mess with the magic item system. I think it's a mistake to brush it off as just another adjustment.
InVino: You're right about continued dialogue. This whole thread started with an OP stating his characters might not like it because they played a different style...implying that there had NOT been dialogue yet, which is a problem. I'm just saying there are a lot more consequences to messing with the magic item system than simply "I don't like magic mart so we're not using it."
If you have players looking at CR appropriate monsters in the books they own and going "uhhh...our group would never be able to fight that" because of rules you have put in place as a GM, you are working in a system where you have shifted more responsibility onto your self as a GM by the rules you have changed.
Yes, I am working under the assumption that the game, out of the box, is balanced around the idea that GMs can, for the most part, use the CR system as a pretty straightforward guide for what their group of PCs can handle. This assumption also means there is a certain level of responsibility on the PCs to be effective versus CR appropriate encounters. I just think that messing with the system alters the balance of those responsibilities more toward the GM's side, which adds to the degree of difficulty already inherent in GMing.
Low magic is simply no harder a change then almost every single GM does every single adventure.
Sure it is -- unlike standard tweaking, a restricted magic items campaign seriously jacks with the balance of the classes. (Such as it is.)
When a GM tells me magic items can't be bought and can't be crafted, I roll wizard, cleric, or druid and the players that didn't do the same end up wishing they had.
I suppose if I ran a module I'd have to stick to the "big six" and all the other "assumed items" that a character "has to have" to be viable. But then again, I'm just repeating why I don't run modules.
I think that's a great attitude to have, if you have unlimited free time. If you have a job and kids (and aren't doing a shoddy job taking care of one or both of the above), forget it.
I get it; I turned my nose up at the idea that not every bit of every campaign should be painstakingly handcrafted by the GM, too, when I was able to "do it right" -- but at this point in my life, I honestly don't expect to have the sheer ridiculous volume of time that takes ever again. This is especially true for 3.X/PF, a game I love in nearly all ways except for the staggering amount of time it takes to build custom encounters etc. right.
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Casters are more effective in low magic settings by far, and even more they are the gate keeper of magic buffs.
You want to fly? Beg the caster.
You want invisibility? Beg the caster.
You want haste? Beg the caster.Whole lot of begging going on, not good for non caster self esteem ...
Why are we talking about low magic settings anyway? We're talking about no-magic-mart settings. Chances that you can fly are actually greater in a no-magic-mart setting, because otherwise the party fighter sells the item of flying for another +1.
And yes, you want to fly, you beg the caster. You want to beat the BBEG into submission, you beg the non-caster. You're part of a team, all with different skill sets. The best solution is rarely "Wizard flies out invisibly and kills stuff with due haste, while fighter stands around." The better solution is, in every game I've played, "Wizard gives fighter flight and invisibility, and the fighter goes off and kills with due haste."
In the low-magic campaign I play in, it's the casters that keep deciding they don't want to play any more, because they feel weak. Yes, I mean that, from experience.
Furthermore, if the DM is restricting access to magic items, don't be surprised if you find access to spells similarly restricted.
I dislike magic stores. I find it implausible that in every major city there is a Magic-Mart the characters can drop in on and buy/sell whatever they want. So in the game I am running I plan to have mundane stores that carry a few magical items. I will roll randomly a few magic items for the stores within the gold piece limit of the town. One to four items. Those are the items/weapons available for sale. And I plan to only have so much money available to buy magic items off the players.
I get that this is going to restrict the players. Especially the players in my group who are used to buying anything they want out of any book they can get their hands on. So I gave them each a magic item at the beginning of the campaign that will level up with them giving each player a bonus tailored to their character.
I think the scarcity of magic items will add to the mystique of the world. A +1 dagger isn’t that great in a normal game but when there isn’t that much out there a +1 dagger become much more valuable. And most characters will toss a cursed or “draw back” item. But when nothing else is likely to come along for a while it’s harder to just leave it behind. And dungeon crawls become more important if the only way to get a +5 Holy Flaming Long Sword is to go and take it from the Bodak’s hoard.
What do you think? Good idea/Bad idea? Questions? Comments?
The way I handle this is that I basically have each locale be the store. The party uses Knowledge checks or Diplomacy to figure out if an item might be available and who has it. Then they need to figure out how to get the item. They may need to simply pay for it. There may be an auction. It could require a Diplomacy check. It may have a small request tied to it. Any number of things. I follow the rules for what to expect in a locale but I don't have Magic-Marts. I think that magic marts take away the mysticism from magic.
Furthermore, if the DM is restricting access to magic items, don't be surprised if you find access to spells similarly restricted.
How does one limit a cleric or druids access to spells barring alignment restrictions?
But you do make a good point of the "domino effect" of making changes especially if not communicating with players which seems to be a point a lot of us can agree on.
Hence way earlier up thread I warned the OP to be prepared for the PC's to set up their own Magic Item based businesses.
Furthermore, if the DM is restricting access to magic items, don't be surprised if you find access to spells similarly restricted.
If the wizard can get his two spells into the spellbook per level which are his class feature, that's enough for him (given a decent player) to badly, badly outshine a magic item starved non-caster if he's of a mind to. Several of the non-caster classes are finally interesting and somewhat powerful for the first time in Pathfinder -- unless you make the mistake of taking away their magic items.
(The fighter, incidentally, flies like a barn in core PF -- he doesn't have and can't get the Fly skill.)
I suppose if I ran a module I'd have to stick to the "big six" and all the other "assumed items" that a character "has to have" to be viable. But then again, I'm just repeating why I don't run modules.I think that's a great attitude to have, if you have unlimited free time. If you have a job and kids (and aren't doing a shoddy job taking care of one or both of the above), forget it.
I get it; I turned my nose up at the idea that not every bit of every campaign should be painstakingly handcrafted by the GM, too, when I was able to "do it right" -- but at this point in my life, I honestly don't expect to have the sheer ridiculous volume of time that takes ever again. This is especially true for 3.X/PF, a game I love in nearly all ways except for the staggering amount of time it takes to build custom encounters etc. right.
Hmm... I have a job, a fairly high level management job which requires working "overtime" (we don't get paid for overtime) and weekends. I have two kids, one in college, one in high school. One is a special needs child (autism) and we spend a great deal of time dealing with therapy and other activities for him. Been married 25 years and still going strong. I also play a couple of "regular" sessions of D&D, take my wife and kids out to movies, go to dinner, hike around the lake, etc. I fish, play golf, read books, stargaze.... well, you get the idea.
What I don't do is watch TV. You would be amazed how much time that frees up for the normal person.
Unless you are going to persist in the accusation that anyone who runs their own campaign must be a miserable parent, a slacker on the job or both.
My world is a work in progress that has been going on longer than I've been married. It's now expanded to several notebooks and a whole bunch of computer files. Plus I've been building terrain and other stuff lately. It's not so bad when you've got almost three decades of ongoing work to use as a foundation.
I was in a nearly no-magic campaign. It was terrible. When I first started, apparently the only magic sword they had (at fifth level, mind you) was accidently dropped into a bottomless pit.
And the DM only played with 3.5 materials, but wouldn't allow anything he deemed broken, and apparently really, really liked dwarves. And there were no gods, because apparently someone had f&#!ed up and plunged the world into eternal winter. So clerics kinda got completely screwed.
And then he decided to run Carnival of Tears. And then left me no choice but to start killing the townsfolk in the tent with the trees in it. (He was doing hit points wrong for them, I was trying not to kill them, but my nonlethal damage, apparently, still killed them on a roll of "1"). They (all 20 plus the fairy with sleep arrows) were trying to grapple me and pour the "beer" down my throat.
And then decided my character was evil and kicked me out of the group. So...yeah, f~&& low magic/no magic shop campaigns. It makes encounters that aren't supposed to be hard well-nigh overwhelming. Ghosts? Out of the question. Anything with DR the party won't be able to overcome is probably going to kill them.
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(The fighter, incidentally, flies like a barn in core PF -- he doesn't have and can't get the Fly skill.)
This is simply not true. If the party contains a wizard, the fighter can usually start taking the Fly skill at level 5. Unless your wizard has no reliable means of flying, of course, but then he can't take that skill either if that's the case.
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I suppose if I ran a module I'd have to stick to the "big six" and all the other "assumed items" that a character "has to have" to be viable. But then again, I'm just repeating why I don't run modules.
This is only really true if you have 15-point buy (or less) characters that never get more gear than wealth-by-level. It's been my experience that you can pretty much ignore most of the "Big 6" if you're running a module and either of those statements are not true.
Rocket, that's an excellent example of a horrible GM, but I can't say it makes any argument for or against low magic campaigns.
Lyrax, well, I wasn't the one arguing about the need to have all the "big six" items covered to run a module. Frankly I'm confident I could run any module in a "low magic" version. I would just modify encounters to make them work if necessary. It's all just a bunch of arbitrary rules anyway, whether the game designers or a GM makes them. The only question is whether the rules make sense, are consistent, and most of all, are fun for the players.
I have an area in my world that is literally stone age. Not only is magic rare in that area, so is metal. So a "normal" sword in that area would be a powerful weapon since most of the inhabitants only have stone knives, axes, bows, spears and atlatls. I have yet to run a party through that area, but I am biding my time. Eventually one of my groups will find it interesting and want to go. It's only been 28 years so far since I put that in... :-)
So...yeah, f&+% low magic/no magic shop campaigns. It makes encounters that aren't supposed to be hard well-nigh overwhelming. Ghosts? Out of the question. Anything with DR the party won't be able to overcome is probably going to kill them.
+1
That's my experience. I've ended up fighting creatures with DR and Ghosts with non-magic weapons. Only way to kill them was repeated hits and spiritual weapon on the ghosts as that's made out of force or Magic Missile to hit the incorporeal cunts. (before we changed to PF so only turning for clerics, no damage.)
The impracticality of magic shops has been a concern of numerous peoples in my game setting. So they do things differently.
The major centre of wizardry keeps in touch with bases of operation in almost every city on the mainland. Through the right contacts in their organisation, a friend of the Tower can source almost any magic item they want. They do pay in extra fees and have to wait for things to become available, but it's all there. You just need to know the right people.
Some don't like the Tower wizards and how they operate, and a magic-smuggling underground has formed. They use some of the very same methods and can get much-desired magic items. The underground often demand favours from those that make use of their services.
And I've had the exact opposite experience. Much of the time, it's great to play a non-caster in a low-magic world.
I guess we've just played and GMed in styles that make different ways work.
At what level do these low magic games usually cap out at? The more details and less anecdote you provide may serve to convince people. My GM likes to go lower magic items so I always am on the look out for hard data on successful games that go beyond 6th level.
The major centre of wizardry keeps in touch with bases of operation in almost every city on the mainland. Through the right contacts in their organisation, a friend of the Tower can source almost any magic item they want. They do pay in extra fees and have to wait for things to become available, but it's all there. You just need to know the right people.
Some don't like the Tower wizards and how they operate, and a magic-smuggling underground has formed. They use some of the very same methods and can get much-desired magic items. The underground often demand favours from those that make use of their services.
Wow, I implemented almost this same exact idea in one of my older campaigns. It was called the Silver Tower, but wizards were called Tower wizards. There indeed was an underground magic movement to counter the Tower, but it was a bit more than just a smuggling ring (an entire criminal empire, basically).
It worked out fine -- in fact, in order to avoid fees, the PCs decided to become honorary members of the Tower. It led to an entire chain of adventures.
Again in old school, we didn't depend on having MagicMart available to us. You geared up gradually by finding items the traditional way, a knock on that 10x10 foot room and a polite request to that Orc with the treasure chest. You seem to be equivocating eliminating MagicMart with elimnating ALL availability of magic items period.
Again in "Old School" it cost a perminent CON to make a magic item. You really cannot use 1-2ed or earlier to justify what occurs in this version of the rules. Much like your thing with Cuthbert in another thread you need to look at this edition of the game and the rules/fluff set therin.
The costs associated with magic item creation have steadily gone down
aside from gold costs you had:
1-2ed constitution
3ed XP
PF none
4ed none and/ or break one magic item down to make another
I would expect to see an increasing number of magic items the futher down the list you go and that appears to be born out in the ways people play and the fact that there is so strongly argued position that at certain levels the assumption that you will have access to useful for your concept magic items becomes enfolded into the challenges; and ,as such, adjustments may need to be made for lower magic item style play.
if I could find someone running a 1-2 ed game or a group interested in playing one(and ohh how I want to find said thing locally) I would take what I found as those are the assumptions the mechanics enforce.
Again in old school, we didn't depend on having MagicMart available to us. You geared up gradually by finding items the traditional way, a knock on that 10x10 foot room and a polite request to that Orc with the treasure chest. You seem to be equivocating eliminating MagicMart with elimnating ALL availability of magic items period.
Note that the AD&D DMG had an example of PCs going to a mage's tower to barter for magic items, so it's not like the idea was completely unheard of.