I dislike magic stores. I find it implausible that in every major city there is a Magic-Mart the characters can drop in on and buy/sell whatever they want. So in the game I am running I plan to have mundane stores that carry a few magical items. I will roll randomly a few magic items for the stores within the gold piece limit of the town. One to four items. Those are the items/weapons available for sale. And I plan to only have so much money available to buy magic items off the players.
I get that this is going to restrict the players. Especially the players in my group who are used to buying anything they want out of any book they can get their hands on. So I gave them each a magic item at the beginning of the campaign that will level up with them giving each player a bonus tailored to their character.
I think the scarcity of magic items will add to the mystique of the world. A +1 dagger isn’t that great in a normal game but when there isn’t that much out there a +1 dagger become much more valuable. And most characters will toss a cursed or “draw back” item. But when nothing else is likely to come along for a while it’s harder to just leave it behind. And dungeon crawls become more important if the only way to get a +5 Holy Flaming Long Sword is to go and take it from the Bodak’s hoard.
What do you think? Good idea/Bad idea? Questions? Comments?
Not sure how you're explaining the magically levelling item each player has but if the players are happy, that's a good start.
I think the general idea is fine. Make the items in the treasure less random and more tailored to what the groups needs.
Be careful if you're running a pre-written AP as they usually assume a certain amount of bling.
I dislike magic stores. What do you think? Good idea/Bad idea? Questions? Comments?
Various low-magic or magic-gear-poor games have been run. My comment is that you're asking the wrong people. In my opinion you need to ask your players what they want. Personally I wouldn't have as much fun in your campaign regardless of how much mystique might be generated. I don't want mystique. I want a nice healthy Lego box of feats, spells, magic items, and class choices that I can use to build a PC that is interesting to me to play both in combat and out.
Here's a viewpoint that might help. You find it implausible that magic shops exist in a world where magic items can be created by anyone who takes a feat and has access to some spells. Yet you don't find it implausible that things like fireball can be cast? My point is that you're arbitrarily deciding where to limit your imagination. It's a fantasy game with a fantasy world and fantastic things happen. Shrug.
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Beautiful idea. Wonderful idea. There are never magic shops in my campaigns, and I don't even hand out magic items at the start.
I prefer it when people treasure odd items and try to figure out how to use them, instead of just saying, "Let's get rid of it, I want another plus instead."
The magic shop commoditizes what would otherwise be a major source of wonder. I prefer my characters to be like bonsai, tended to be shaped by the world around them, than like obelisks, with only one path.
I dislike magic stores. I find it implausible that in every major city there is a Magic-Mart the characters can drop in on and buy/sell whatever they want. So in the game I am running I plan to have mundane stores that carry a few magical items. I will roll randomly a few magic items for the stores within the gold piece limit of the town.
This is basically what the PFRPG does. See Here.
+1.
Although, have you ever sat down and tried to follow the proscribed method?
It's brutal.
Definitely something that needs to be streamlined in a 2nd Ed.
What do you think? Good idea/Bad idea? Questions? Comments?
To be honest, I like having some say in the magic items that my characters have, so I would probably be tempted to make a character who could craft items. What's your opinion on item crafting?
What do you think? Good idea/Bad idea? Questions? Comments?
I think this is an easier problem to solve than it sounds. There are plenty of ways that you can find someone who will sell you magic items, even if there isn't a shop for it on main street (next to the tavern).
City size plays a large part in what's available. A small town drastically limits what you can expect to find. If you don't give the PCs access to a metropolis or large city, they're not going to find a lot of stuff for sale. Finding specific items might be impossible.
Diplomacy checks to gather information can help you find someone who can hook you up with specific magic items. . . or at least point you in the right direction.
There's plenty of crazy wizards in towers who do nothing but make items all day. Encourage the party to seek them out, but let the party know that these guys are exceptionally paranoid. Stealing from them is not a good idea. . .
All these ways can lead straight into an adventure. Making the process of buying magic items an adventure is an easy way to introduce the concept of magic item buying without making the campaign world seem ridiculous.
Sounds like you (the OP) want to run a campaign that YOU enjoy. That's fine and dandy, but it's gonna go sour fast if it's not what your players also enjoy. The key is finding a balance.
Also, it's gonna test your chops as a DM. The system is designed with certain wealth and magic item expectations for characters. If you're not careful AND good, it can end in disaster.
This type of campaign can also cause more arguments between players as an item that multiple people want/need will only be available to one person and the group will know they probably won't see anything like it for a while. Caution there too....especially players who are used to a certain style.
Also, I find the whole magic mart thing to be pretty realistic in PF. What the heck are non-adventuring spellcasters DOING in your version of the world? It's hard to believe that super-intelligent people of the more leisurely persuasion haven't figured out how much money they can make by crafting items and selling them for twice what they cost to make.
Actually, now that I think about it, if I were a wizard who wanted to make money I would SEEK OUT adventurers and custom make what they wanted. Heck, I'd be on retainer! Pay me half the price up front (now I can make the item) and half once it's done (pure profit, baby). What do you want next, good sirs?
As always when lowering the availablilty of magic items do make sure you look at adjusting CR's of some monsters due to certain assumptions the game makes for gearing. Be prepared for a party who begins picking up item crafting feats to get around your restriction.
What do you think? Good idea/Bad idea? Questions? Comments?To be honest, I like having some say in the magic items that my characters have, so I would probably be tempted to make a character who could craft items. What's your opinion on item crafting?
One of my friends runs a low magic items game like this. Item crafting isnt allowed either. Good game though.
I dislike magic stores. I find it implausible that in every major city there is a Magic-Mart the characters can drop in on and buy/sell whatever they want. So in the game I am running I plan to have mundane stores that carry a few magical items. I will roll randomly a few magic items for the stores within the gold piece limit of the town.
This is basically what the PFRPG does. See Here.
+1.
Although, have you ever sat down and tried to follow the proscribed method?
It's brutal.
Definitely something that needs to be streamlined in a 2nd Ed.
Why is it brutal? You have a 75% chance that you will find exactly what you want (if it's equal or under the city's value) and if there is suficient time you can always go to the casters themselves and make an order and/or upgrade your own equipment, as i have said if there is enough time.
To the OP, ask your players whether they like it that way or not, that's the ultimate thing, if they do go for it, if not you might want to reconsider. I personally like the magic mart idea (where it's appropriate) and i think that it both adds to the game and keep things runing smoothly (especially in APs).
Why is it brutal? You have a 75% chance that you will find exactly what you want (if it's equal or under the city's value) and if there is suficient time you can always go to the casters themselves and make an order and/or upgrade your own equipment, as i have said if there is enough time.To the OP, ask your players whether they like it that way or not, that's the ultimate thing, if they do go for it, if not you might want to reconsider. I personally like the magic mart idea (where it's appropriate) and i think that it both adds to the game and keep things runing smoothly (especially in APs).
I do agree on the ask your players thing.
As to the 75% chance
After looking and failing for a wand of CLW in 4 increasingly larger cities with not enough down time to do a custom order. It can be. I even go to roll the last two times becasue the GM felt bad for the first two.
It is an exceptionally popular item after all.
One of my friends runs a low magic items game like this. Item crafting isnt allowed either. Good game though.
Does that mean that there are no magic items period? Because if the players cannot create magic items, it should follow that no one can.
I could understand a rule that made magic item creation so time intensive that it would be unlikely an adventurer would ever create one. But a rule that allows NPCs to make magic items, but not PCs is far more implausible to me than the problem it is purportedly trying to address.
Not really. Just because it's being forbidden from the players doesn't mean you can't have NPC's doing, although they're not going to be all that common.
Why can NPC humanoids do something that PCs cannot? This really strains immersion for me. If a human somewhere can create a longsword +1, then it follows that PCs should have the ability to learn to do it too. Otherwise, it seems like an artificial distinction between characters.
Because basically being a hero, means you don't have time for such activity or the feat training that applies. In my world you're playing James Bond, not Q.
Increasing the time to make magic objects is fine with me. But players should still have the option. If they want to take a year or so out of their schedule to create magic objects, that is their choice. Even James Bond takes a vacation.
I am fine with the players crafting.
The world I am running doesn’t have many adventurers in it. Only a handful are currently active. And while I won’t let the players hand pick their magic items, I don’t plan to skimp on the magic stuff. It’s just that they can’t go buy their gear. It's currently being used by some one else or in a dark cave/dungeon some where.
To get back to the original post:
I probably wouldn't be happy with a game where I'm expected to get excited over a Rope of Climbing or a Javelin of Lightning. I've played in a few games like that before -- no thanks.
However, it sounds like you're going to give your players at least one item each that's more interesting than that, so that's a good sign.
I am fine with the players crafting.
The world I am running doesn’t have many adventurers in it. Only a handful are currently active. And while I won’t let the players hand pick their magic items, I don’t plan to skimp on the magic stuff. It’s just that they can’t go buy their gear its currently being used by some one else or in a dark cave/dungeon some where.
So what happens when they get an even better shiny and want to sell the old one?
Or start making magic items and selling them to lords/nobles, tribal cheifs, and other important people who dont have time to adventure but would like to have such goodies?
IE the players decide they should make a magic mart because a market exists.
Why is it brutal? You have a 75% chance that you will find exactly what you want (if it's equal or under the city's value) and if there is suficient time you can always go to the casters themselves and make an order and/or upgrade your own equipment, as i have said if there is enough time.To the OP, ask your players whether they like it that way or not, that's the ultimate thing, if they do go for it, if not you might want to reconsider. I personally like the magic mart idea (where it's appropriate) and i think that it both adds to the game and keep things runing smoothly (especially in APs).
I do agree on the ask your players thing.
As to the 75% chance
After looking and failing for a wand of CLW in 4 increasingly larger cities with not enough down time to do a custom order. It can be. I even go to roll the last two times becasue the GM felt bad for the first two.
It is an exceptionally popular item after all.
Ouch!! bad luck....
You didn't have 1 or 2 days of "free" time in the city? (it doesn't even has to be "free" time, 1 or 2 days of "work" in a large enough city?)
I understand the allure of a low magic campaign or the no magic shop style, and I've played in both, but I always found that not being able to take my character in the direction I wanted, or even needed (in some cases), to be very frustrating even though the rest of the campaign was enjoyable. Making the players (and characters) ooh and ahh over items is part of the fun of being a DM IMO but I feel that limiting magic items does not in most cases create wonder in an item.
I've been playing this game for ~15 years now, a +1 dagger is not going to wow me even if its the only one on the planet (as long as its presented as a +1 dagger). My character may be duly shocked, but that doesn't necessarily increase my enjoyment of the game as a player, YMMV. However, with a small bit of effort on the part of the DM and adding some flavor to that dagger especially if it in some way dovetails with my characters story will thrill the hell out of me. Mechanically there's no difference, but quality wise there is a world of difference.
Now, you're thinking, 'a magic shop is just a collection of +1 x's and +2 y's, how does that come into the argument about whether or not to have an item shop?' Well, having the world contain 100 +1 x's and 1000 +2 y's doesnt detract from the +1 Dagger of Flavor in any way. Mechanically a +2 dagger is better, of course, but the game has a certain set of expected values at certain levels and we as players need to attain them to stay survivable, but we may hang on to the +1 dagger just for the cool factor. At that point its become something of a cherished item and you've done your job as a DM.
For example our modern bard starts out with a standard Gibson electric guitar, but he worships Jimmy Hendrix. He levels slowly playing gigs, then comes across a guitar that Hendrix played at some small venue, and he obtains it through some appropriate adventure. He plays better while he's holding it and loves it as a cherished item. Its no better than any other guitar of that years make, but to him its a form of holy relic. Eventually he comes across the guitar Hendrix played at Woodstock and he has to have it, its his +5 Holy Avenger, so he again takes some appropriate quest or makes a trade to obtain it and he feels like a rock god, but again its no better than any other form of the same instrument. Its all in the item's history and presentation. You can buy an equal modern guitar for a considerably lesser price, why pay the much greater value? Because its important to the character. Does he throw away the lesser Hendrix guitar because he found a better one? Probably not. Someone who listens only to violin music may have no interest in the guitar, but a found strativarius will have them on the same high.
These levels in historical value can be reflected in mechanical bonuses as well as story significance, but that's all up to the DM.
There are reasons to have low magic campaigns, but adding to the mystique of the world is the DM's job, not a magic items. As others have said, there's plenty of room to reasonably assume that merchants and wizards and anyone able to craft the items would do so from a profit standpoint. Magic item shops are also a very good way of leading characters where you want them to go, or have them join factions that you want them to join without railroading them into it. If they think its their idea to head for the city with the MagicMart to buy what they need then you're fulfilling multiple needs with one small shop (the characters get to spend their hard earned gold, they get stat bonuses they probably need, you get them to go where the next adventure or hook lies, and you probably get an hour or two of easy DM'ing as the peruse the shelves).
I'm by no means saying you're wrong, but is more than one way to perceive and fix the problem without potentially frustrating your players.
Some sort of method for players to "disenchant" unwanted or obsolete magical items might be interesting. They could draw the magic out of the item and end up with a highly magical, silvery dust that is essentially the vague magical components that it costs to make magic items in the first place. Then if they do find someone who is willing to craft a couple items for them, they could give the person this silvery dust to use in the crafting. You can decide how much of it the crafter wants/needs and thus set the market, while also allowing your players to get rid of their old/unwanted items in an interesting way.
One of my friends runs a low magic items game like this. Item crafting isnt allowed either. Good game though.Does that mean that there are no magic items period? Because if the players cannot create magic items, it should follow that no one can.
I could understand a rule that made magic item creation so time intensive that it would be unlikely an adventurer would ever create one. But a rule that allows NPCs to make magic items, but not PCs is far more implausible to me than the problem it is purportedly trying to address.
There are some magic items, but they are very rare. They arent made, they become magical because they were used in some epic event, wielded by a great hero or villain etc.
Potions and scrolls are allowed though, its the permanent items that are rare.
EDIT: I should probably add that most of out opponents are low-magic humanoids. When monsters are used they are always custom made by the GM so we dont really suffer from the item inflation necessity that seems built in to 3.5/PFRPG.
Why is it brutal? You have a 75% chance that you will find exactly what you wantOnly up till around level 10.
Why?
heres my opinion of 'magic mart.'
don't visualize it as a Wal-Mart superstore
visualize it as either a Flea Market or a Bazaar.
maybe you can involve local major churches and wizard's guilds into it.
maybe the local arcane academy will make items on commision, by having apprentices learn to contribute to the item's creation. so that they may understand several key pieces of the 'puzzle.' kind of like boyscouts making wallets and purses. most of these magic items are likely at the minimum allowable bonus. unless you have daring bold apprentices willing to overwork themselves on a long project.
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I'm not the OP, but in my view, crafting is find and dandy. Also, it's not that there is no market for magic items, there's just no coordinated, well-stocked market for them. I would make exceptions for low-level potions, scrolls, and possibly wands, for example.
But hey, where do all the gems, jewelry, and objets d'art end up? That's where the magic items end up, too. Just as I can't expect to run to the supermarket and find a Picasso for sale, I don't expect it to be trivial to pick up just the right magic item, either. I've got to know the right people. Risk letting other people know I'm interested in a particular item. Maybe some recurring BBEG catches wind and tries to cut off access. Maybe I have to fight off some assassins to reach the item. Maybe the only one people know about is treasured and guarded by a family of frost giants.
Maybe there's an adventure involved. Call me crazy, but I like it that way.
Ouch!! bad luck....
You didn't have 1 or 2 days of "free" time in the city? (it doesn't even has to be "free" time, 1 or 2 days of "work" in a large enough city?)
Sadly no, tracking down some wanted men.
But I was able to pay a tithe at the last town to a Church to my Inquisitors goddess, so that I can pick one up after we return from the mountains.
Thats the kind of magic shops I like in a game it's not some wal mart with tons of magical goodies but should eb seen as a short hand for various entites/organizations who prodce items for sale/ to bequeath for noble causes etc.
Again, that's your view. Besides would you really trust a magic item made by an insane wizard? Or a Gnome? Which is pretty much the same thing.
There's plenty of crazy wizards in towers who do nothing but make items all day.
And it's also the view of classic D&D throughout the years. Yes, PF isn't D&D. . .
Just because you're insane doesn't necessarily mean you're evil. Sometimes obsession with perfection is merely a manifestation of insanity. Only an uncommitted wizard -- dare I say hack -- would craft damaged items.
And with PF's ease of crafting items when you're not a caster, it should be that much easier for a Gnome tinkerer expert to make magic items.
Why?The 75% chance to find items only goes up to 16K, to find medium/major magic items more expensive than that you have to rely on the 4d4/3d4 randomly rolled lists.
No, from 16K begins the metropolis "level", a city could very well have a greater value, not that it would be common, in fact it should be rare but then again that's what teleport is for.
And with PF's ease of crafting items when you're not a caster, it should be that much easier for a Gnome tinkerer expert to make magic items.
Yes that's true, in a homebrew setting my DM is making (or rather re-making for PF) the best weapon enchanter in the world is an old 20 level dwarf fighter.
I am aiming to do something similar in my next game and to make magic items rare again (as opposed to abundant as the game assumes they are). The problem ofcourse is that if characters dont have magic items useful to their characters (if not exactly what they want) they are pretty far behind on the power curve, and will have difficulty with level appropriate threats. I laid out a 2 part plan of what I was going to do to replace the bulk of the capability magic itesm give here
Why is it brutal? You have a 75% chance that you will find exactly what you want (if it's equal or under the city's value) and if there is suficient time you can always go to the casters themselves and make an order and/or upgrade your own equipment, as i have said if there is enough time.
Allow me to clarify. I am not referring to the 75% rule, which I rather like, but with the method for generating high-value items.
I am a GM who really likes to do things "by the book".
If you take a random town, and you generate a random number of items, and then go about generating each item, you will run into a few problems.
First, the CRB does not contain the necessary information to generate base item types. This is fixed in the GMG, though. Second, there is no system outlined for inclusion of random items from other products... that would be nice. Third — the VAST majority of item rolls you will be making will reach a "dead end".
If you try to do it as written, you will be spending hours with the item table. When I was 10, this might have been a fun way to while away the hours. I'm a busy man these days.
In the future, I hope they simplify the whole process immensely AND make it modular for the inclusion of later products.
On the whole, it's a legacy system that can barely be called functional. Most people are using the bits that they like and ignoring the rest. If you've ever actually tried to populate a village shop with random gen items, you will know what I mean by "brutal".
What I would like most, though, is for settlement writeups to include Shop Statblocks with a few items and relevant vendor stats. I've mentioned it several times and nobody's taken me up. I'm gonna go res that thread and see if anyone cares now, or is it really just a stupid idea nobody likes.
There are a number of Magic Iten generators being used in many Kingmaker campaigns right now that would work for you.
On the whole, it's a legacy system that can barely be called functional. Most people are using the bits that they like and ignoring the rest. If you've ever actually tried to populate a village shop with random gen items, you will know what I mean by "brutal".
I think i agree on that.
There are a number of Magic Iten generators being used in many Kingmaker campaigns right now that would work for you.
All I had to do was look exasperated and exclaim "there has to be a better way!" and one such generator appeared, replete with infomercial sound-effects!
Yes. Automation of repetitive tasks is a good thing.
Elimination of repetitive tasks is better!
I would be disappointed if a Pathfinder 2nd edition repeated the wasted page count from a system so un-fun that it drives people to write computer programs just to avoid it. They have world-class game designers there, I trust them to find a better way.
I dislike magic stores. What do you think? Good idea/Bad idea? Questions? Comments?Various low-magic or magic-gear-poor games have been run. My comment is that you're asking the wrong people. In my opinion you need to ask your players what they want. Personally I wouldn't have as much fun in your campaign regardless of how much mystique might be generated. I don't want mystique. I want a nice healthy Lego box of feats, spells, magic items, and class choices that I can use to build a PC that is interesting to me to play both in combat and out.
Here's a viewpoint that might help. You find it implausible that magic shops exist in a world where magic items can be created by anyone who takes a feat and has access to some spells. Yet you don't find it implausible that things like fireball can be cast? My point is that you're arbitrarily deciding where to limit your imagination. It's a fantasy game with a fantasy world and fantastic things happen. Shrug.
+1
I'm currently in a live game where the DM had no magic items in ANY city despite it's size!
Because of this our characters are nerfed when we fight some monsters or other monsters have such pathetic magic equipment that the assassin that tried to kill my character instantly died from me using destruction on him and turning him into a pile of ashes and equipment. His only item of any worth was a spellstoring dagger. Yes, my character and others in the campaign are around 15th level and that's all the assassin had.
Plus with no magic items how do you account for the money by level table? Someone's character dies at level 10 and you allow him to re-roll a character, he starts with only mundane equipment? That would nerf the character no matter what the class, especially a wizard.
Bad idea imo and puts more of a damper on your players if they are going to go against CR worthy creatures.
We suffered against a Clay Golem. A damn CR 10 Clay Golem was kicking the asses of 5 level 14 (on average) characters and no magic items also means no access to weapons made from Adamantine wich would've passed the DR. Had to let the barbarian wade in on a magic sword and hack it down combined with some buffering magic and this was just the begining of the tomb!
So that's my two-cents on that.
This complaint is already covered. Fairly efficiently all things told. Besides, take access to magic items away from the player completely, and you might cause them to look at the item-creation rules, which they will abuse, to the point that the magic shops will look like a blessing in disguise.
+1
Especially since the players might decide to spite the DM by spending several months (in game time) crafting magic items to sell just to bore the DM and make him wish he went with magic items to begin with.
This complaint is already covered. Fairly efficiently all things told. Besides, take access to magic items away from the player completely, and you might cause them to look at the item-creation rules, which they will abuse, to the point that the magic shops will look like a blessing in disguise.+1
Especially since the players might decide to spite the DM by spending several months (in game time) crafting magic items to sell just to bore the DM and make him wish he went with magic items to begin with.
+1
(on both posts)
heres my opinion of 'magic mart.'
don't visualize it as a Wal-Mart superstore
visualize it as either a Flea Market or a Bazaar.
i beleive this makes 'magic mart' a lot easier to digest for the sake of immersion.
the flea market doesn't have to be exclusively magic items. it could be intergrated as part of a bigger market that has stalls devoted to all sorts of things.
as an example potential dealer, that elderly, robed keleshite male wearing a turban, the one selling imported Tian spices at one of the stands, might have a few pieces of magic equipment he keeps as private inventory and could require a password (DC 20 diplomacy check). maybe he has connections to individuals who could craft the desired items but charges for the info. he may even be a highly skilled wizard who doesn't want his cover blown because he prefers the life of a spice dealer over his former life as an adventurer. his old, white, falcon, familiar could easily watch the stands for him.
I noticed that the older games (such as myself) are quite different from the younger players. When I played basic and advanced D&D, we did not have a feats, skills, hero points, and so on. The game was more interesting that way. Now, anyone can stop at 7-11 magic shop and load up. Destroying monsters in two rounds is not fun. Look at Lord of the Rings. How many of those guys ran around with vorpal weapons? Were they casting fireballs from a wand they just created a minute ago with 50 charges? The story was great and so were the characters. Maybe its a generaational thing, but I dislike magic shops because they make things too easy for characters. But, magic is must in every game!
I am new to pathfinder and this messages board is great. There are so many different points and great ideas. This board has most definately assited me in my game...
Look at Lord of the Rings.
The heroes of Lord of the Rings had crazy magic items. Frodo was carrying around a cursed ring of invisibility and was wearing a mithral chain shirt. Aragorn had a magic sword and magical equipment. Legolas was using a magical bow. One of the wee folk had a evil outsider bane shortsword, or something like that. Enough to pierce it's DR and stagger it. Mostly everyone was rocking magical equipment, except for Gimli from what I recall. Samwise and Frodo crossed a mountain range eating magic bread.
Just saying.
Again, that's your view. Besides would you really trust a magic item made by an insane wizard? Or a Gnome? Which is pretty much the same thing.
There's plenty of crazy wizards in towers who do nothing but make items all day.
And yet you're comfortable accepting the work of some psychotic dwarven blacksmith? That armor needs to keep your enemies' blades out of your chest. Sounds... sketchy.