There are advantages to rails compared to just dragging a wagon wherever you want to go. The two primary advantages are consistency in speed and increased efficiency due to reduction in friction between the wheel and the ground. That's why they were used to move heavy building blocks in Egypt and other ancient cultures.
The main disadvantage to rails is that you have to maintain them rigorously, and when they fail, you have to repair them before you can use them again.
What that implies more than anything is a powerful and stable government over large areas and enough need for trade that wagons and rutted roads won't satisfy those needs. To make a rail system believable in a fantasy setting, you would have to have massive trade which benefits from increased efficiency and predictable scheduling. Since most of the need for that sort of efficiency and scheduling came from industrialization itself, the biggest difficulty in making a railroad believable is coming up with the need for goods and services to move that efficiently and predictably. A magical world might make that more likely, or less likely, depending on how the magic is learned, managed and practiced. In a high magic world, it's probably unlikely, but in a low magic world, it might make sense.
How about just using wagons? Hooking rail cars up to a dinosaur or something is immensely more expensive than just hooking a wagon up to the same creature.
Actually, in my original post, I did specify wagons. Wagons on rails, pulled by teams of draft animals.
This thread is not "What do you think about using animals to pull trains?" It's "I want animals to pull trains in my campaign world and want people to post they agree with me."
In NO practical way does using animals to pull rail cars make any sense. Even if you thought steam was too "Devil's magic!" for D&D, what about D&D magic instead? And if you don't want to do that, then you are wasting your time not using wagons.
I realize you probably don't care, but I take umbrage with the first paragraph in this quote, because it is totally inaccurate. I did ask if readers thought using draft-animals to pull trains of wagons along a rail-system would "throw a monkey-wrench into the suspension of disbelief engine." You apparently feel it would, other people like the idea and want to stay "in the loop" as I develop it, should I do so.
I don't mind a good critiquing - it usually makes my efforts far more solid and enjoyable as I find ways to deal with facets of my ideas that had not occurred to me. In fact, the underlying "why" of the rail-system and associated economies of scale/trade as brought up by Kevin, mdt, yourself, and BB are one such topic and the potential of golems over draft animals are another. Getting a solid handle on both of these issues will determine whether or not the existence of a rail system makes sense. The availability (and economy) of teleportation magic was something I haven't even considered before it got brought up in this thread.
Permanant floating disk or levitate items used as transportation devices might be cheaper, in the long run.
Possibly, but but aren't there weight limits involved there? -looks-
Actually, Floating Disk looks like you'd have to get GM's approval to use with Permanency. Assuming so, I'll move on. Floating Disk is limited to a 3' diameter circle and 100# per caster level. Assuming the same wizard casts Disk and Permanency, that gives each Disk a capacity of ... oops. What minimum level do you have to be to use Permanency on a Floating Disk? Looks like the minimum level is roughly equal to 9+(minimum level to cast the other spell-1), minimum 9, so we'll call it a minimum caster level of 9. So each Disk has a load-limit of 900# and can be no more than 45' away. And if you use this rig, it is limited to the caster's base walking speed.
Levitate is limited to 100# per caster level, so roughly 1,000# minus wagon weight if you also use Permanency (assuming a minimum caster level of 10). The advantage with this spell is the team (of animals, slaves, golems, whatever) pulling the load can follow any trail - or no trail. The team wouldn't suffer the drawback of having the wagons getting stuck in bad terrain.
So making the Disk costs 90gp for casting Disk, 4500gp for casting Permanency, and 2500gp in diamond dust. Total: 7090gp each to haul 900#.
Making the levitating wagon costs 200gp for casting Levitate, 5000gp for casting Permanency, and 5000gp in diamond dust. Total: 10200gp each to move 600# (spell max of 1000# - 400# of wagon).
(All the above supposes I did my numbers right!)
Both options still need something to pull the load. That means these options are still limited to 8 hrs of travel a day.
Compare this to 2000gp (or so) for a Ring of Sustenance for an aurochs to eliminate its "feed-bill" and I tend to think the other options are less economical by a large margin. But they were approaches I had not worked with yet, so until I ran my (assumed correct) numbers, I wasn't sure.
EDIT : Come to think of it, I might just steal this idea for my homebrew world. I can see the Elves in my world working this sort of thing up for their country.
Wait, what? You're stealing the idea? It was your idea to start with! *I'm* the one stealing it!! :D
Looking at Teleport Circle as an alternative. 5' radius (so a 10'x10' square) limits the physical size of what you can send. Also, RAW, TC functions like Greater Teleport, which functions like Teleport. This only moves people and their gear, not unattended objects - that's Teleport Object. Hm. Might need rethinking, but I'll press ahead *as if* Teleport Circle includes Teleport Object functionality.
Teleport Circle is a one-way spell that links two specific points on the same plane and can be made permanent (minimum caster level 17). I *think* it takes 10 minutes for the Circle to reset. Assuming Teleport Object functionality, the Circle will move 850# and 51 cubic feet of material per use. To build a Circle, it will cost 1000gp in amber dust plus pay 1530gp for the casting, then pay 1530gp to cast Permanency and use 22,500gp in diamond dust. Total: 26560gp for one circle.
This gets you a way to move material *from* a specific point *to* a specific point. Getting materials from *any other point* to either the sending circle or the receiving point uses more traditional methods. With the railroad, *every point* has access to the wagon-train as it runs *each way.* So the Circle sends its goods *immediately* between two specific points and the train takes 8 hrs to move the goods, but can service *every location* between the start and finish point.
In order to have the funds and resources necessary to begin and maintain a railway system, you need to have a good government. Ancient Rome had a FANTASTIC government, comparatively speaking, and was always looking for new inventions to make things easier. That's why they had plumbing. And it has to be a big country for people to even think of something like this. After all, if it only takes a day to get from point A to B anyways, how are you going to convince others to fund it?
So, big country where such transportation would be an amazing boost to its economy.
How about a sustained and (semi) permanent reverse gravity, but shifted 90 degrees? Items would "horizonally fall" along the tracks.
It should be pointed out that the Oregon Trail was impassible in winter months due to snow. It should also be pointed out that this sort of inclement weather continues on to this day.
I spent this winter in Truckee, California. The roads into town were frequently closed due to snow. All those trucks attempting to go through the pass? Stuck on one side or the other. Meanwhile, the freight trains went through town unimpeded. This is one of the advantages of trains even in the current day. Inclement weather? Not that much of a problem.
Having them drawn by animals instead of by some variety of mechanical engine? Historically done in some areas.
If you've got some situation where the queen likes to move her court seasonally between her summer palace and her winter palace, a railway makes logical sense, especially if goods are also shipped between both cities.
After all, if it only takes a day to get from point A to B anyways, how are you going to convince others to fund it?
Yes, but if you have multiple tons of material that needs to move every day from point A to point B, you'd want to do it as quickly, easily, and cheaply as possible. A rail system pretty much does away with difficult terrain.
So, big country where such transportation would be an amazing boost to its economy.
Not even necessarily all that big, I think. But a far-flung kingdom will certainly benefit greatly.
If you've got some situation where the queen likes to move her court seasonally between her summer palace and her winter palace, a railway makes logical sense, especially if goods are also shipped between both cities.
I can see a special train being kept specifically for this use!
If you've got some situation where the queen likes to move her court seasonally between her summer palace and her winter palace, a railway makes logical sense, especially if goods are also shipped between both cities.I can see a special train being kept specifically for this use!
With stops along the way (at resupply deposts or changing animals and the like) becoming the Hubs of "Spring Fairs". Landed nobles getting in on this years fashions at the court, squiring out lesser born sons, and such.
I spent this winter in Truckee, California. The roads into town were frequently closed due to snow. All those trucks attempting to go through the pass? Stuck on one side or the other. Meanwhile, the freight trains went through town unimpeded. This is one of the advantages of trains even in the current day. Inclement weather? Not that much of a problem.
Snow's snow. They probably had a way to clear the railway.
Long range transport by rail doesn't really make sense if pulled by animals. Why would the rail systems be built? Why wouldn't it be done by magic? Why wouldn't a non-magical mechanical rail system be built by the smart people who WERN'T Wizards?
It's not that the scenario is too tech, it's that it falls into the same valley as everything else "too tech" for D&D - people inexplicably try to avoid steampunk without making it magical. Presumably everyone that isn't a Wizard is a moron who can't invent another way to do something because there are so many Wizards willing to do everything on the cheap, which raises the question why there isn't a magical railroad.
When I read the thread tittle, I couldn't help but think about a hamster and wheel powered train. LOL
Cartigan, it boils down to a matter of cost. Animals are a lot cheaper than magic. As for why animals vs real tech? *shrug* I haven't justified that one yet! Maybe someone has, somewhere...
Cartigan, it boils down to a matter of cost. Animals are a lot cheaper than magic. As for why animals vs real tech? *shrug* I haven't justified that one yet! Maybe someone has, somewhere...
I don't think it's cheaper.
Let's see, if you have 10 horses to pull the train vs 10 wood golems.
10 wood golems is 190,000gp.
10 horses. If their speed is 50, then they can cover 8 * 50 per 8 hours, or 40 miles at a walk. To go 24 hours, you need 3 teams. That's 200gp per horse, 2,000gp for one team, 6,000gp for 3 teams. That's only going to cover 120 miles. Let's make it a reasonable length for a train, say 10 days, 1200 miles. That means you need 3 teams per day for 10 days. That's 6,000gp per day, or 60,000gp. If you want to avoid food costs, you need a ring of sustenance for each horse. 10 x 3 x 10 = 300 horses. that's 300 rings of sustenance. 2,500 x 300 = 750,000gp. Hmmm, that right there is way more expensive than 10 golems. Now, add on a gold a day for someone to care for the horses when they aren't pulling the train (29 more gold per day), but it's already way cheaper to buy 10 wood golems.
EDIT : The golems would of course take twice as long to get the train there, but, they'd be cheap.
What if the barges can 'undock'. By which I mean that they get to departure point "A", have enormous chains latched into rings attached at various points about the hull. Said chains wind through pulleys/winches, draft animal herd drags the barge onto its 'rolling bed'. Barge is secured to its bed via bolts (or whatever). Draft animals drag barge filled to the gills with, say, grain to be delivered to the milling complex 20 miles away. One day out, one day of rest, one day back. Barge is dropped back into the river, it makes its way back to the grain supply.
Other versions of these barge-boat-ship things would be made, some for military purposes of various sorts, some for decadent luxury, some for passenger transport, especially as the 'technology' matures.
Cartigan, it boils down to a matter of cost. Animals are a lot cheaper than magic. As for why animals vs real tech? *shrug* I haven't justified that one yet! Maybe someone has, somewhere...
Duh, divine decree. :)
{The following is a work of fiction wherein I may ascribe motives to named posters which they did not actually have. I beg your forgiveness in the name of entertainment.}
Cost Analysis Of Animals Versus Golems In Moving Freight
(a transcript of an open-floor debate, as held at the 746th Conclave of Practicioners in the Grand Auditorium, Kethwick)
In recent days, we have heard a number of opinions from learned scholars on the best way to move cargoes from source to destination. The pedestrian matter of financing has, as ever, finally reared its misshapen head. In response to Cartigan's questioning, I have claimed the reason for using animals over magic is cost, pure and simple. Our esteemed colleague mdt has declared a team of ten wood golems to be a far superior method of moving a wagon-train along a given rail system than an equal number of heavy horses, and has proffered economic data to support his claim. I wish to review this data in order to see if perhaps I should change my stance.
I wish to first establish the certains. We are comparing solely the means of propulsion and the associated costs of operation incurred. As such, we accept as a given both means of propulsion – the team of golems and the team of draft animals – both operate identically. To wit, they are attached via appropriate harnesses to a series of cargo wagons which will be pulled along a path made of rails sized to a given standard. The costs of this system are therefore identical for each system and will not be considered. Also as a fixed cost, I submit the construction of way-stations at regular intervals along the rail-route. From these would ride out scouts and work-crews whose duties would include checking the rails for needed repair. Additional teamster crews would be in these stations, as well, along with paddocks for draft-animals. Of course a golem-pulled system will not need the paddocks, but there are plenty of other reasons to maintain them.
mdt has selected as the basis for his comparison a team of wood golems and a team of horses. He rightly cites the ability of the golem-team to move for the full twenty-four hours in a day and notes it would require three teams of horses to match this capability. I concede this is absolutely accurate, but contend there is more to the story.
“Cost-effective” means comparing how much it costs each team to move the same amount of material, a factor mdt did not address. If everyone will refer to their scribe-panels, we will look at the numbers behind the scenes.
First, let us examine the wood golems. A standard wood golem has a STR of 18. This gives it a maximum load of 300 pounds. In comparison, a heavy horse has a STR of 20 (STR16 “Horse” + 4 from advanced simple template) and a maximum load of 1200 pounds. As you can see, it would require four wood golems to move the same amount of material as one heavy horse. However, as was pointed out, the golems can move this load without having to stop to rest. So you need three times as many horses to move a given load over the same amount of time. This means you need three horses. Given this, the cost of dragging a 1200-pound load for twenty-four hours becomes this:
wood golems (4): 77200gp
heavy horses (3): 600gp
Another charge levied against animals is the cost of their fodder. This is, indeed, a legitimate expense of operating a draft animal that is not incurred when operating a golem. The standard ration for a horse is 10 pounds at a cost of 5cp. Multiplied by the number of horses needed to move the above load, the operating cost increases by 15cp. While a wood golem can be left to pull the wagons along the tracks untended, it seems unwise to not have a sentient being along in order to prevent accidents resulting from poorly-worded instructions. Likewise, a team of draft-animals needs teamsters. For sake of simplicity, let us assign two teamsters to each train, at a cost of 3sp per day – the going rate for a skilled laborer. This increases the cost of operation of each team by 6sp per day for salaries and an additional 6sp for meals.
Again, if you would reference your scribe-panels, the current totals for the means to drag a 1200-pound load for a twenty-four hour period are as follows:
wood golems (4): 77200gp + 12sp
heavy horses (3): 600gp + 15cp + 12sp
This breaks down to a cost-per-pound-per-day of:
wood golems (4): 64.33gp
heavy horses (3): 0.5gp
Another factor that our colleague mdt brought up was the speed of movement. The wood golem has a base move of 30 feet and the heavy horse has a base move of 50 feet. The aforementioned 1200-pound load represents the maximum load, putting both teams at heavy encumbrance. This reduces the golem team to a move of 20 feet and the heavy horse to 35 feet. In the course of twenty-four hours, the distances traveled by the teams are thus:
wood golems: 48 miles (16 miles every 8 hours)
heavy horse: 84 miles (28 miles every 8 hours) (interpolated from chart 7-6, CRBp172; the horse's move is 35, halfway between 30 and 40, so distance traveled will be halfway between the totals given for those two speeds)
This breaks down to a cost-per-pound-per-mile-per-day of:
wood golems (4): 1.34gp
heavy horses (3): 0.006gp (half a copper??!!)
Naturally, the teamsters will lose some time as they change out horses every eight hours, but this loss will be negligible.
Please note, these costs actually assume you buy four new wood golems or three new heavy horses every twenty-four hours. Economic Arithmancy is not my strong suit, so amortization of the lifespans of the two teams are not factored into this equation as they should be. As we well know, a golem may easily endure for centuries, while horses have a far shorter lifespan. Ah, I can hear the Dark Mistress protesting that the horses can birth their own replacements, incurring little costs beyond training them to the harness. So, amortization is revealed to be a tricky proposition.
Also do be aware the use of heavy horses in the rail-system is by far the least cost-efficient solution. Were we to compare mdt's wood golems against mules (Advanced Ponies, per Master James Jacobs as chronicled here) , the comparison would be more even, as both have an STR of 18. Unfortunately for the economic claims of magical superiority, the humble mule can be had for a mere 8gp rather than a heavy horse's 200gp cost. Additionally, the mule's speed (40) is still higher than the golem's (30).
So it is, given the analysis of this data, that I do humbly submit for the perusal and consumption of my peers, that the lowly draft-animal is, in fact, currently the most cost-effective and fastest way to move cargoes overland throughout the kingdom.
I would like to point out a major flaw in Doc_Outlands premise.
He assumes that all wood golems are biped.
Please note that golems can be made as quadrupeds. Therefore, the 18 STR wood golems would have a towing capacity of 300 x 5 (for dragging) x 1.5 (quadruped), or 2250lbs on the rails.
A horse, by comparison, with a 20 str, could haul 400 x 5 (for dragging) x 3 (quadruped), or 6000lbs on the rails.
In other words, it takes 3 golems to equal 1 horse in dragging capacity, or 1 mule in dragging capacity.
I submit that given food costs, costs of care for the animals when not being used (which you left out of your equations), simplicity (one driver and no need for a group of teamsters to care for the horses and switch them out every 84 miles) golems are better. They are functionally equivalent to mules doing the same job. A team of 4 could drag 9000lbs (4 and a half tons) of cargo and train. A team of 8 could drag 18000lbs 24 hours per day 7 days per week. Additionally, they are hardier than horses with regards to not getting sick, and they are not a natural food source, which cuts down on attacks by monsters seeking food.
As to self replacing, mules are not self replacing. :) And, breeding them requires 2-3 years of feeding and training without benefit, so that has to be included as well, when it is not in Doc's equations.
Finally, safety of the train riders is another factor. Horses and mules can be easily frightened, where wood golems do not become afraid. They are also immune to mind affecting things such as illusions and would not be fooled by such if used by a hostile magic user (such as a bugbear shaman wanting horse meat for his tribe).
How much does it cost to pay a wizard golem-wrangler?
But would a construct hauler really need to be a golem? Couldn't it simply be an animated object or some other construct? Or a swarm of unseen servants?
Maybe the teamster union doesn't want golem scrabs stealing their jobs?
Maybe scarab golems are the way to go? More stable, neat mythos.
The assumption of a bipedal wood golem was a necessary compromise, given the financial statistics offered by our colleague. To date, golems are fairly consistent in design parameters, following the forms laid out in ancient manuals and rituals. it would be an exceedingly profitable field of study were a group to research out the various formulae and underpinning rituals necessary to support the construction of, shall we say, non-traditional golems.
As for mdt's assertations of dragging abilities, I believe perhaps he should avail himself of more opportunities to observe the natural world in action, rather than hiding in arcane studies with only second-hand information to guide him. It would appear that a creature so heavily-laden as he presents would be strained to the point all it can do is shift such a load a mere 5' per round.
I will concede golems do indeed have the advantages of not getting sick and being more emotionally stable. Those are important positives in favor of the golems, as is the reduced size of support staff needed for handling.
However, as it stands, the original question concerned the economic advantages of one versus the other. Even considering the need for care during non-working hours, care which would be given anyway and which benefits from economies of scale, the added financial burden added by multiple teams of draft animals is quite small. Further, I would argue the base purchase price of the animal reflects those non-benefitting years of growth and training. This facet of the discussion may bear further scrutiny.
The esteemed SmiloDan brings up a good point. Why not use animated objects to conduct the transport? I am pleased to say my staff considered this already and have experiments and simulations underway that should result in useful data very soon.
The problem with using unseen servants lies in the duration of the spell and the inherent strength of the spell. As it stands now, the spell is simply not strong enough to be effective. I will ask my staff to prepare some models to show what I am referring to.
As for scarab golems, I fear my staff and I are unfamiliar with these constructs. Could you provide a reference for us to study?
===
Ewan, thanks for that link. mdt!! Thanks for playing along! This is quite fun... All in all, I think D&D/Pathfinder does not currently support the level of detail it would take for us to really draw a *proper* conclusion to several of these questions. We *could* use GURPS Vehicles to design our system - and I very probably will do exactly that.
Plus, the "cart or wagon" line of Table 7-9 (CRBp174) certainly seems to contradict the information I've derived from earlier pages! To achieve such a low result, the cart or wagon would have to represent a heavy load for an animal with a base move of 30.
No problem.
Oh, one last nail in the coffin of animals. :)
Note that the government, as the full time employer of mages, would be able to benefit from this in the following way.
Just as an adventuring group can save gold on their magic items since their wizard can create them at cost, rather than paying market rate, the government can create it's wood golems at cost, which means 10 of them would cost 95,000gp, not 190,000gp. Just an extra tidbit. :)
The cost of the wizard's annual salary is not a part of the equation, since they are paying for him anyway. :)
Alternately, the government could go for large golems (thus increasing their hauling capacity to equal to a large draft horse) for +25K, or 35K per golem at cost. Since they would need only 4 such golems to haul 24,000 lbs of train (12 TONS), this would represent a cost of 140,000gp, cheaper than the original 10 Mediums. This should allow for much faster transport. :)
Anti-free-market gov't subsidies! Blasphemy! :D
Good point - we were working from market-cost. But wait - if this is govt-funded, wouldn't the cost go UP??? :D
Build a bigger golem, good idea. So, now we need better/clearer/consistent rules for building golems and permanent animated objects.
Wonder who we can get to do that?
From the rule of cool camp.
There is something unsetling for the train engineer/ coachman to tell the oversized wood golems "Stop" then "Defend train". Additional defences to augment guards onboard
TBH i could see using both beasts of burden and magical means depending on how strategic/ politically important a train line and the locales along it are.
Yeah, my son pointed of those out this morning. If we made the wood golem into a wagon-shape, we'd get a Q-ship! Bandits stop the train and approach one of the carriages - only to suddenly suck up a splinter attack!!
Great visuals!
I just made up scarab golems as a bad pun on scrab, or union-busting, golems.
Maybe a pumped up version of unseen servant? Strength equals caster level, with size increases every few levels, and maybe more than one per casting, with a longer duration?
Or giant cheetahs!
I just made up scarab golems as a bad pun on scrab, or union-busting, golems.
Maybe a pumped up version of unseen servant? Strength equals caster level, with size increases every few levels, and maybe more than one per casting, with a longer duration?
Or giant cheetahs!
If you're going to go that route...
Dire Tigers.
Large Quadruped, hauling capacity is a whopping 1040 (27 STR) * 5 * 3 = 15,600 lbs per cat. With 40ft of movement.
Put a ring of sustenance on them. You need two to haul the trains, that's 31,000lbs (15.5 tons). Each weighs 3 tons, you can carry two of the others on the train when sleeping to avoid most of the costs with housing them. So that's 6 of them, 15,000gp for rings of sustenance. If the train is attacked, you have four that can leap off it to counterattack, and two that stay attached and defend at the front.
EDIT : Fixed the weight, was off on that.
Those poor cats - how... demeaning. But the shock-value of the other four (tired and utterly p!$$3d off!) leaping out of their sleeping-wagons to wreak havoc is just ... awesome. AWESOME, I say!
SmiloDan, your Unseen Servant idea approaches how GURPS handles it. In fact, GURPS Vehicles has *rules* for that sort of engine. And is something I'm looking at duplicating, to one degree or another.
(love the union-busting golems! That's raise a stink!)
What about intelligent slaves? If my Elves traffic in Orc slaves.....
Ultimate magic has guidelines for creating new constructs.
So, if you wanted to replicate a draft horse (CR 2)...
As a rough guideline, a construct’s price is equal to its
challenge rating squared, then multiplied by 500 gp.
Constructs with a fractional CR rating base their price
on that fraction of 500 gp. For example, a CR 1/2 construct
has a price of 250 gp. The cost of magical supplies for the
Craft Construct feat is half this price, with the construct
taking 1 day to create per 1,000 gp of the construct’s
base price.
So, 2 x 2 = 4 x 500 = 2,000GP. So a CR 2 construct horse would be 2,000GP. I think that's the cheapest yet. :)
Note that most golems are much more expensive because they are given special abilities, immunity to magic, etc, and are combat oriented. These are not. :)
Those poor cats - how... demeaning. But the shock-value of the other four (tired and utterly p!$$3d off!) leaping out of their sleeping-wagons to wreak havoc is just ... awesome. AWESOME, I say!
Not really tired. Remember, rings of sustenance. So, after hauling for 8 hours, they sleep on the train for 2, then hop off and walk next to it for 8 hours, sleep 2, walk 4, sleep 2, haul again. Let's them have play time next to the train while waiting to haul again. :)
Wow... that revamps the whole nature of the discussion.
Wow... that revamps the whole nature of the discussion.
Also makes construct elephants for a high weight capability train possible.
Edit: arrrghh now I have "Southbound Pachyderm" in my head.
Wow... that revamps the whole nature of the discussion.
Yep, now, the rules state that they assume you are following the monster creation rules in the back of the bestiary for monster CR.
So, you can't make a quadruped golem with 100 str and 10's in the rest of it's stats. :) But as long as you just use a normal animal and turn it into a golem, it's not all that expensive. Which makes sense if you think about it. You're not making a tank, you're making a truck.
Which is funny, because that was the approach I tried to take earlier this evening - build a wagon golem as if it were a critter. (I know d20pfsrd.com already has stats for one, but I wanted to do it myself to see if my numbers came out the same.) I started falling asleep, so I had to abandon my efforts for tonight.
|
Between SGG's Krazy Kragnar's Used Chariots and my own efforts, one of the things I've run into is the possibility of an aurochs-pulled string of wagons along a set of rails. I've been told this is actually a historical occurrence, but would it throw a monkey-wrench into the suspension of disbelief engine? Another part of the deal could include a special carriage for the local lord, created using Create Construct that drives itself along the rails as the lord surveys his (or her) lands.
My son loves the idea of Wild West meets King Arthur - but has made me promise that any self-propelled wagons or carriages will NOT be intelligent or named Thomas...
Thoughts? Opinions?
If the ancient greeks could build a railway I don't see a reason why anyone would be against it.
How common is magic in the setting?
That would be the defining factor, wouldn't it? Low magic would have to use horses. High magic could attach magic rocket packs on the wagon and send them careening down the railway, or something.
Animate Object. It would pay itself off rather quickly when the goods get there that much faster -- you could charge a literal arm and a leg for the speed of this service.
And we haven't even gotten to the much cheaper animate dead options.
So they moved entire (small) *ships* on the Diolkos. That's crazy-neat.
I'm still working on the magic-level, because I'm prolly going to change magic-systems. Still TBD.
The Erie Canal system can be an excellent source of inspiration. It can make some previously small towns big boom cities. In a fantasy setting, you don't have rely on just mules or cattle to do the pulling.
But wooden rails and wheels can also benefit from ironwood spells. And there might even be druidical factories that use rituals to make large amounts of it. They figure it's better for the wood of a single tree be used for 100 years than 100 trees be used for 1 year each.
I may actually have to rip this idea off for my campaign with the druidic Vatican/wild weird west....
Or just have the druids use magic to create living tracks. Any damage would quickly repair itself. The trees get to live and Druids can control the path through the savage lands. I think Druids would prefer this than to sacrificing trees.
Also, assuming that part was large enough for a human to enter it's a great conduit for tree stride.
Edit: you could even make the trains hover/move based on the repel wood spell. Similar to how real life magilft trains work. That would be pretty cool. A train system set up and run by Druids to help minimize urban sprawl and protect the wild places of the world.
Also the repel wood effect would prevent the train from actually touching, thus damaging, the tree rails.
Heh, I know for *me* it's a matter of aesthetics and just general "wow" factor. My players are used to modern-day trains. But what about fantastical trains? "They should *look* different" is the common attitude, one with which I tend to agree, but I can play either way. Wooden wagon-wheels were standard and wooden pipes were as well. So why not use wood with magic? Some cultures are more likely to use metal for rails - like a dwarven outfit. I see the choice of material used to be set-dressing used to differentiate the users. Dwarves refuse to use wood because metal is obviously superior, while elves refuse to use metal because wood is more natural/renewable, etc. It is all in the salesmanship, I think.
Using the druidic version I mentioned I picture them looking like specialized wooden boats (with little wheels for when they're not running on the tracks) or specialized wooden wagons. Perhaps something akin to covered wagons. Of course you'll need a sturdier roof for fast travel/ rooftop train battles.
How about using golems?
Two of my medium or large golem brethren inside the "engine room" running on hamster wheels (or turning cranks and what not) for eternity. After that its only a matter of converting the kinetic energy into forward momentum. I can even imagine an specialized golem with multiple limbs and no legs tailored for whatever machinations necessary.
I can see dwarves using this method on stone tracks underground (where lack of sunlight would prevent using trees).
Sounds like the truck chase through the jungle with fencing and leaping from truck to truck in Indiana Jones 4 (the only good part about that movie!).
This is making me want to GM again....
Never seen it, but I am sure I get the general idea. Our particular fight involved hirelings, summoned monsters, and a clockwork foe. On our side a cleric/radiant servant of the host, a rogue/inquisitor and a wilder out to save the train, the ambassador and the fate of five nations ...
How about using golems?Cost.Mitigated by the lack of need for food/ water and extreme "lifespan"
Also gets progressively more Blaine the Train from Dark Tower
Using permanent animated objects would have the railway necessary benefits, but far less combat effectiveness. It would also help seriously mitigate the time and expense of creating true golems.
Looking at Teleport Circle as an alternative. 5' radius (so a 10'x10' square) limits the physical size of what you can send. Also, RAW, TC functions like Greater Teleport, which functions like Teleport. This only moves people and their gear, not unattended objects - that's Teleport Object. Hm. Might need rethinking, but I'll press ahead *as if* Teleport Circle includes Teleport Object functionality.
Teleport Circle is a one-way spell that links two specific points on the same plane and can be made permanent (minimum caster level 17). I *think* it takes 10 minutes for the Circle to reset. Assuming Teleport Object functionality, the Circle will move 850# and 51 cubic feet of material per use. To build a Circle, it will cost 1000gp in amber dust plus pay 1530gp for the casting, then pay 1530gp to cast Permanency and use 22,500gp in diamond dust. Total: 26560gp for one circle.
This gets you a way to move material *from* a specific point *to* a specific point. Getting materials from *any other point* to either the sending circle or the receiving point uses more traditional methods. With the railroad, *every point* has access to the wagon-train as it runs *each way.* So the Circle sends its goods *immediately* between two specific points and the train takes 8 hrs to move the goods, but can service *every location* between the start and finish point.
Or a single pair of ring gates with the circumference of a subway tunnel.
I just realized how many times I posted. Sorry for that, but I'm loving this discussion.
One final thought (for the moment):
Not all cultures will handle the railway idea the same. It's possible that in a single setting that all the ideas were used. Perhaps humans started with the limestone groves pulled by horses and a dwarf saw that and thought "I can do that Better." thus the stone railway was born. An elf saw that and thought "I can do better" and the wooden railway was born. Then a gnome saw it and the dire tiger construct clockwork steam punk train was born... Ad nausea.
I just realized how many times I posted. Sorry for that, but I'm loving this discussion.
One final thought (for the moment):
Not all cultures will handle the railway idea the same. It's possible that in a single setting that all the ideas were used. Perhaps humans started with the limestone groves pulled by horses and a dwarf saw that and thought "I can do that Better." thus the stone railway was born. An elf saw that and thought "I can do better" and the wooden railway was born. Then a gnome saw it and the dire tiger construct clockwork steam punk train was born... Ad nausea.
Then you get the issue of do they used standardized track width for ease of transferring cars between systems. Or differing track width requiring more depots to "switch lines". That decision can reshape the tides of battle/ supply lines.
India is one of the most railroaded countries on Earth, Unfortunately, the railways are divided between 3 major providers, and all of them use different track widths. I suspect the Brits are to blame.
I was thinking about Shermans burning of Atlanta as it was a Hub for 5 different sized lines. I had no idea India had a similar non-standardized setup.