I'm looking forward to my first time being a player since mid last-year, and am looking at improving my game in-combat, both in a descriptive/roleplaying sense, and a tactical one.
You see, my group has a bit of a history of horrific plans and spectacular failures in combat. At first this could be attributed to poorly built characters, a poor understanding of the rules (and the CR system) and a stingy DM (gear never exceeding the 2000 gold mark, as high as level 7). Over the past two years, however, this hasn't changed, and after my "brawler" (monk), Twigs, died spectacularly, I figure it's time for a change.
I'm curious how you fellows operate in combat. I'm not concerned with builds, so much as with your use of actions, particuarly into the early-mid level range. Both as a player and a GM, I'm curious how the experienced players of this board make use of the wealth of options avaliable in combat, in the interests of both survival and creating dynamic encounters
- How and when do delayed actions prove useful?
- When are combat manuevers useful compared to direct damage-dealing?
- How important is positioning, in this equation?
- How does one make proper use of cover?
- Stealth?
- How should an all-melee party operate? All-ranged?
- How/if do you make use of traps? Ambushes? Terrain? If you use the light rules, what effect do these have on your game?
- How much does party makeup change? How should an all-melee party play? All-ranged? All-mounted?
Hoping for some interesting discussion!
Edit: Listified for readability
If the GM is not giving you more than 2000 gp that is a problem. Now he may be cutting the encounters back as far as difficulty, but if not life will continue to be difficult. I would suggest taking the crafting feats so you can make your own gear.
Monks are also a very gear dependent class, as are most classes, but damage dealing types are more so than the casters are.
1. Delayed actions prove useful when you want to wait for buffs from the casters or if you are not sure of the best course of action.
2. If you specialize in combat maneuvers than can be affective but generally speaking damage is better. I will also add that if your DM uses monsters as opposed to humanoids that at higher levels combat maneuvers become less reliable.
3. If you are trying to protect the squishes it is very important to be in the correct position whether using maneuvers or just trying to do damage.
4. Cover is better for the ranged types and sneaky types
5. Stealth is mainly used for scouting, and the occasional ambush to get a surprise round. Just be sure you have cover or concealment.
6. An all melee party is not a good idea, especially with a lack of gear. The same goes for an all ranged party. They would also have trouble at higher levels since magic is normally needed for certain things.
7.Don't waste time or money on traps. Ambushes can be done in several ways, but you have to be able to set the enemy up. Lying, putting out false information to get them to the correct spot, scouting and other methods are good for ambushes.
8. An all anything party is normally a bad idea. It makes it hard to cover several bases. What can or can not work depends a lot on the GM though. Some GM's will change things to suit what you are playing, but with others sometimes somebody has to play their 2nd choice for the survival of the group.
Remember to work as a team and be aware of each others abilities. For example avoid blocking melee characters that want to charge, be aware if spell casters want to drop area effect spells and delay or position accordingly. Know what buff spells are likely to be coming and delay or make sure you're in range if you want them. Support other characters, such as flanking with or casting improved invisibility on the rogue. Did your monk have a Mage armour from the wizard? Barkskin from the Druid?
Different classes excel at different things so play to your strengths, listen to each other and coordinate. One of the few games I pulled out of, in character, had a party of soloists who were all good at what they did but didn't support each other, so I had no healing in combat, no buffs and no melee support in the front line. After the third beating my character had had enough....
There was a thread on the boards a little while ago about melee characters complaining when a wizard webbed a bunch of ghouls and told them to use ranged weapons. If you think webbing them was a good idea then you'll live a lot longer than if you all just want to charge in. :-). If the enemy is good in melee pin him down and hit him from range. If your enemy is good at range then close in and shut him down fast. Accept that certain characters will eclipse others in some encounters, and different characters will be stronger elsewhere. If you're not in a fight where you excel then support the rest of the party however you can. That obviously applies to the whole party.
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How and when do delayed actions prove useful?
When you are waiting for something to happen... for example delay until after you see if the wizard in your party's grease spell worked. I am a much bigger fan of Readying an action. For example if a creature is 40' away you can move 30' and ready an action to attack when it gets in reach.
When are combat manuevers useful compared to direct damage-dealing?
Combat maneuvers are good if you are confident you can accomplish them but wouldn't be able to get away with a direct attack. For example if you are a monk having trouble hitting a heavily armored fighter in heavy armor you might trip him instead (assuming you have improved trip). This denies him a full attack and you will get the chance to attack him again at +4 when he's on the ground.
They can also be good if there are hazards in the battle. Bullrushing someone into a wall of fire or off a cliff can be effective.
In either case these things are only effective when you have taken the feats and it's a target you have a good chance of succeeding against. Trying to trip or bullrush a troll is likely not going to work.
How important is positioning, in this equation?
Flanking is very important, are you flanking with a party member? Particularly party members who get bonus damage from it like a rogue. Are you going to get flanked and shanked?
Next I guess is protecting party members, are you leaving some softer party members exposed? Try and deny access to the arcane casters in your party who are likely providing vital support.
Try and position yourself so enemies moving into position are going to have to provoke attacks of opportunity.
How does one make proper use of cover?
In combat cover is weird because it's so variable. The biggest thing is to try and keep something between you and any ranged combatants. Even if it's an enemy (you can use an enemy to get a +4 soft cover bonus to your AC), keep something between you and those nasty archers. Nothing worse than being in an open field surrounded by archers :P
Stealth?
I consider stealth an out-of-combat option. Use it as best you can to learn about the enemy and prepare as best you can.
How should an all-melee party operate? All-ranged?
Don't do this? If you hyper specialize you create massive weaknesses that can be exploited. I had a group of players playing a PFS module who nearly got wiped out by a group of low CR goblins because they couldn't cope well with a ranged encounter.
How/if do you make use of traps? Ambushes? Terrain? If you use the light rules, what effect do these have on your game?
As a player it can be tough to set these things up. It all depends on the game you are in. Most games involve you going somewhere and doing something to someone else though so the sort of thing you describe are the sorts of things you are avoiding not planning.
How much does party makeup change?
In my home group we generally stick with the same characters for a long time, usually at least 5-6 levels and even then usually it's only one person who changes out. We try to compensate for whatever shortcomings the party has.
I reccomend a witch, they get many of the best arcane/divine utility spells, and allow you to have an otherwise melee party. At least let you be better at it.
How/if do you make use of traps? Ambushes? Terrain? If you use the light rules, what effect do these have on your game?
Surprise and traps can be extremely powerful if you take care to actually use them effectively. Many players don't think surprise is that important. They just kick doors down and fight whatever they fight. That's not a completely horrible strategy if your goal is to rush through combat and you feel you don't really need an edge. However, these same players are often quite sad when they run into something very strong and it takes them out before they can run away. Scouting can be very important if you actually want to live to level 20. . .
Favorable terrain usually helps out enemies over PCs because the challenge of dealing with bad terrain is built into encounters. It's possible to lure enemies to areas where the terrain favors PCs, but this is atypical. Therefore, being able to deal with bad terrain (especially terrain that hinders movement) is a good way to improve the quality of PC combat performance.
The light rules are massively important in the early game. If GMs really use the rules correctly (and effectively), they can directly influence most combats -- especially in dungeon settings. Ranged attackers outside of a light source are a big threat to a party lit up like a christmas tree. A common GM tactic is to kill light sources with the darkness spell and fight a party in the dark versus a bunch of darkvision-enabled opponents. This can be a very challenging fight for a group of low-level PCs.
Darkvision is a strong early-level PC ability. Low-light vision is weaker but still not bad -- especially if the GM is a stickler for the light rules. I prefer to play a character with either low-light vision or darkvision.
If your dm is being stingy on gear and (likely) still throwing difficult encounters at you, you really have to be careful with party makeup. You need relatively self sufficient classes. Everyone should have a touch of magic and good buffs. Something like a Druid, Summoner, Wizard, Bard party might work, you can make up for the lack of gear with buffs, and the druid summoner, and wizard can put summons or companions on the field with strong buffs from each player to let the action economy work in your favor.
How and when do delayed actions prove useful?
When you are waiting for something to happen... for example delay until after you see if the wizard in your party's grease spell worked. I am a much bigger fan of Readying an action. For example if a creature is 40' away you can move 30' and ready an action to attack when it gets in reach.
I'm afraid that doesn't work, since readying itself is a standard action (though you're explicitely allowed to ready another standard action). Or did I always interpret this wrong?
Edit:
Ready
The ready action lets you prepare to take an action later, after your turn is over but before your next one has begun. Readying is a standard action. It does not provoke an attack of opportunity (though the action that you ready might do so).
Readying an Action
You can ready a standard action, a move action, a swift action, or a free action. To do so, specify the action you will take and the conditions under which you will take it. Then, anytime before your next action, you may take the readied action in response to that condition. The action occurs just before the action that triggers it. If the triggered action is part of another character's activities, you interrupt the other character. Assuming he is still capable of doing so, he continues his actions once you complete your readied action. Your initiative result changes. For the rest of the encounter, your initiative result is the count on which you took the readied action, and you act immediately ahead of the character whose action triggered your readied action.
You can take a 5-foot step as part of your readied action, but only if you don't otherwise move any distance during the round.
I read it as the readying itself using up a standard action, not including the readied action.
If wealth is low the Inquisitor is a great class to play. The Cleric, Druid and Oracle are as well. I find melee orient casters who can use spells to boost their combat abilities do well in low wealth games. I find the Inquisitor excels in combat and has the spells to pull it off. Like Magic Vestment and Greater Magic weapon at 7th. The full casters can get this at 5th or 6th for the Oracle and the Druid with barkskin at 3rd.
Arcane full casters suck in low wealth games until they get really high level but good luck keeping them alive till that happens. Until they you are party liability.
Arcane full casters suck in low wealth games until they get really high level but good luck keeping them alive till that happens. Until they you are party liability.
That's odd. In my experience the physical classes suffer the most when wealth is low. Weaker weapons *and* armor (used in every combat) don't compare to weaker stat boosters, wands, and rods. Even then, full arcane casters can more easily craft themselves more gear in a low-wealth game. . .
First of all you should never have an all melee, or all ranged party. All characters should have both types of attacks. All characters should also have backup weapons in case there main weapons get broken. Having different types of weapons to bypass Damage Reduction is also a good idea. Most martial characters and elves should be carrying bows, unless you have chosen feats to make use of another type of ranged weapon. For characters without martial weapon proficiency a crossbow is ok. One of the most useful and overlooked items in the game is the Efficient Quiver. Not only does it carry a bunch of arrows it also can carry bows, sears, quarter staffs, javelins. All of which can be very useful.
Most of your other questions are about controlling the battle field. This is absolutely essential to wining. As a chess player one of the things you look to do is to control the board. This is something any good tactician should be doing. Now this is primarily the spell casters job. Mainly the arcane casters, but all characters can contribute to this. Proper use of the terrain and positioning is also key. Anything that can limit the you enemies without hindering you should be done. Some characters in order to be effective need to be in certain positions. This would include flanking for sneak attacks, and not being threatened for your ranged combatants.
Synergy is the key to winning your battles. All characters in the party should be aware of the capabilities of the other party members. This includes weakness as well as strengths. Work together to shore up each other's weakness. This includes protecting the other members from harm. A dead cleric can't heal you after the battle, and a fighter under a compulsion has turned from an asset to a major hindrance.
You may want to look at A book of Five Rings, which can be found here. It makes for some interesting reading.
http://samuraiconsulting.ca/5rings
Fun an relevant thread link time!
Help Me Construct a Smart Fighter
and a direct link to my post where I call out most of the terrain modifiers.
Self-promotion
Lessee here.
If someone can put a condition on an opponent, like tripping them or stunning them, it can be cool to ready an attack for when that happens.
When an enemy charges, if you have a longspear or spear, double damage against the charger. Even then, if you ready an attack against them you will get to attack against their AC with the -2 charge modifier in place. In addition you will get to attack before their attack is rolled. This can be fairly heplful depending on level.
I am sure there is a mathmatical breakdown of when they become better than attacking, but in general they seem to end up wasting actions<own opinion>. I would in general say that you should use a combat manuever if not doing so would kill you or a party member. For instance, if a lone enemy has a +5 vorpal greatsword feel free to grapple or disarm him to remove that advantage. Sunder is a problem most of the time because you can not damage a higher enchanted weapon with a lower one. His blade is immune to sunder from a +4 sword.
Yeah, that is an extreme example but the main idea is to remove some power the enemy has. If someone grapples Mr. +5 Vorpal Greatsword, he can't run around attacing with a chance of instant death.
Well, if you ask me positioning is crazy important. Melee guys need to stand clear of friendly fireballs, need to not give soft cover to enemies by blocking the ranged characters, need to allow other melee guys to charge or flank.
Further, read my linked post about terrain modifiers. Does free concealment without a downside sound cool, or a free +1 to attack rolls? How about preventing others from charging you. Positioning is crazy important.
My best advice there will be fairly lame. Read that section of the book a few times. I'll go ahead and repdoduce it anyway, and give a link at the bottom of this section. Bottom line, cover is cool, get cover.
From the Pathfinder Reference Document.
To determine whether your target has cover from your ranged attack, choose a corner of your square. If any line from this corner to any corner of the target's square passes through a square or border that blocks line of effect or provides cover, or through a square occupied by a creature, the target has cover (+4 to AC).
When making a melee attack against an adjacent target, your target has cover if any line from any corner of your square to the target's square goes through a wall (including a low wall). When making a melee attack against a target that isn't adjacent to you (such as with a reach weapon), use the rules for determining cover from ranged attacks.
Low Obstacles and Cover: A low obstacle (such as a wall no higher than half your height) provides cover, but only to creatures within 30 feet (6 squares) of it. The attacker can ignore the cover if he's closer to the obstacle than his target.
Cover and Attacks of Opportunity: You can't execute an attack of opportunity against an opponent with cover relative to you.
<This is important -TNA>
Cover and Reflex Saves: Cover grants you a +2 bonus on Reflex saves against attacks that originate or burst out from a point on the other side of the cover from you. Note that spread effects can extend around corners and thus negate this cover bonus.
Cover and Stealth Checks: You can use cover to make a Stealth check. Without cover, you usually need concealment (see below) to make a Stealth check.
Soft Cover: Creatures, even your enemies, can provide you with cover against ranged attacks, giving you a +4 bonus to AC. However, such soft cover provides no bonus on Reflex saves, nor does soft cover allow you to make a Stealth check.
Big Creatures and Cover: Any creature with a space larger than 5 feet (1 square) determines cover against melee attacks slightly differently than smaller creatures do. Such a creature can choose any square that it occupies to determine if an opponent has cover against its melee attacks. Similarly, when making a melee attack against such a creature, you can pick any of the squares it occupies to determine if it has cover against you.
Partial Cover: If a creature has cover, but more than half the creature is visible, its cover bonus is reduced to a +2 to AC and a +1 bonus on Reflex saving throws. This partial cover is subject to the GM's discretion.
Total Cover: If you don't have line of effect to your target (that is, you cannot draw any line from your square to your target's square without crossing a solid barrier), he is considered to have total cover from you. You can't make an attack against a target that has total cover.
Improved Cover: In some cases, such as attacking a target hiding behind an arrowslit, cover may provide a greater bonus to AC and Reflex saves. In such situations, the normal cover bonuses to AC and Reflex saves can be doubled (to +8 and +4, respectively). A creature with this improved cover effectively gains improved evasion against any attack to which the Reflex save bonus applies. Furthermore, improved cover provides a +10 bonus on Stealth checks.
I think the rest of your questions would be more or less self-explanitory. Just a fun thought though, for an all mounted team, Mounted Archery is good if you have the room to make use of it.
In my own games at some point we started playing less like superheroes and more like commandos so cover and lighting became more important. A casterless party can work for some campaign styles, and provided you make an effort of it you can take on greater threats without ever even placing yourself into real danger many times depending on what you are attacking. Making use of concealment keeps you safe from many diffrent attacks, and cover is great for helping your survive fireballs and things like that. Smart terrain use is probably strong enough to be worth a few magic items by itself.
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A lot of people said what I would have said, so I will not repeat those.
I will add that having 2 heavy fighting classes (fighters, paladins, barbarians, and to a lesser extent cavaliers) are very nice to have. It takes pressure off of 1 guy trying to cover the rest of the party. Most parties I have been in hate to be the tank, and understandably so. A lot of people are just tactically terrible as well. Those 2 factors really affect heavy melee classes more than other classes.
I have an unwritten rule that if I am the only heavy fighting class player, I'm switching out. I hate getting left in a fight by myself without support by careless or bad players who don't know what they are doing. And since I'll be the slowest one along with the most DPS, I'll suffer from their lack of knowledge and tactics more than other characters will.
In a PFS game recently I was in, I was the 2nd front line fighter. It was great that we were flanking the enemies, kicking ass and taking names.
Have your party make character together. If you know ahead of time your not going to get gear you need to alter your stragtegy a little.
Your wizard needs to take the crafting feats. You can use to him multiply what little money you do get into gear. He can also be your nuker/disabler/buffer. Lower levels he should be using color spray , sleep and daze. That last one is to take out ranged or flankers before level 5.
Effectiveness in combat is all about teamwork and awareness. The fighter should be trying to create flanks for your rogue to maximize damage , while your wizard is singling out targets and burning them down , while your cleric is healing as needed and disrupting the enemy*.
*This job involves the use of readied actions and ranged weapons to disrupt spells casting. Can really be done by anyone.
Beyond not being out of position you also need to know the fight. Lets say you get jumped by a group a 4 gnolls with longbows in a wooden gaurd tower. Your tactics for this fight would be take a standard action and drop prone as a free action. on your turn use a move to stand , shoot , drop prone as a free action. This is giving you your full attack bonus on your turn while raising your ac by 4 on thier turns.
This also brings me to another thing a lot of people forget to do. EVERYONE in the party needs a melee and a ranged weapon. EVERYONE. Your wizard need a spiked gauntlet and a crossbow. Your two hand fighter needs to atleast have a few javalins.
You all need melee weapons to AoO and flanking. What happens when the wizard get charged and the rogue goes next. Well since his buddy is wearing his spiked gauntlet the rogue get his sneak attack and flanking bonus. How about those gnolls. Your two handed fighter has javalins.
You might wonder why the wizards wearing the guantlet? Because its a melee weapon that still counts as a free hand for casting. So he can use his cross bow in one hand , his gauntlet in the other and still cast spells making him usefull in all situations.
So i guess it all comes down to knowing your team and creating characters that feed off each other , knowing what to do in a certain type of fight and being perpared with things like anti toxin , a silver dagger ( its cheap and can help ) and the like.
The reasons against all-melee or all-range groups are are given by a lot of people her.
But to answer your question about that topic:
If you want to play an all-melee group, then you must prepare for the ranged attacks of enemys. Block the line of sight with trees (feather token tree) or mist or a solid barrier (ask the spellcasters) and so on. Even potions of invisibility will do and they are cheap.
If you want to play an all-range group, then you must hold the melee enemys from your throat. Block there way to you with barriers, pools of fire, ice and acid (ask an alchemist), knock them back with rings of ram or even stop them with summoned monsters.
Great stuff so far, guys. You've gotten me more excited about combat than I've been in a long time.
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I'm afraid that doesn't work, since readying itself is a standard action (though you're explicitely allowed to ready another standard action). Or did I always interpret this wrong?
I read it as the readying itself using up a standard action, not including the readied action.
Move 30 feet (move action)
Ready an action to attack (standard action)You can make a move action and a standard action in the same turn, where is the problem?
I'm looking forward to my first time being a player since mid last-year, and am looking at improving my game in-combat, both in a descriptive/roleplaying sense, and a tactical one.
You see, my group has a bit of a history of horrific plans and spectacular failures in combat. At first this could be attributed to poorly built characters, a poor understanding of the rules (and the CR system) and a stingy DM (gear never exceeding the 2000 gold mark, as high as level 7). Over the past two years, however, this hasn't changed, and after my "brawler" (monk), Twigs, died spectacularly, I figure it's time for a change.
I'm curious how you fellows operate in combat. I'm not concerned with builds, so much as with your use of actions, particuarly into the early-mid level range. Both as a player and a GM, I'm curious how the experienced players of this board make use of the wealth of options avaliable in combat, in the interests of both survival and creating dynamic encounters
- How and when do delayed actions prove useful?
- When are combat manuevers useful compared to direct damage-dealing?
- How important is positioning, in this equation?
- How does one make proper use of cover?
- Stealth?
- How should an all-melee party operate? All-ranged?
- How/if do you make use of traps? Ambushes? Terrain? If you use the light rules, what effect do these have on your game?
- How much does party makeup change? How should an all-melee party play? All-ranged? All-mounted?
Hoping for some interesting discussion!
Edit: Listified for readability
I would consider a low-wealth game to be similar to a Final Fantasy Tactics challenge. Since you cannot count on the standard, you have to be self sufficient and as hardcore as you can at making the "perfect party" in order to survive what I'm guessing is otherwise standard encounters.
I'd recommend the following party (or variation therof):
Cleric x 2
Wizard x 1-2
Druid x 1-2
The reasoning is pretty simple. With this party, you have access to pretty much every piece of magic you can have. Non are particularly fear starved, and they can all potentially craft magic items as they need to. All function very well in a low-magic game (a sorcerer could replace the wizard but I think you lose some potential versatility, but if you have NPC spellcasters, you could pay them to copy their spells, or trade them spells, or research your own spells, etc).
The clerics can both get an animal companion as a druid 3 levels lower. A druid gets an animal companion. The arcanist gets a familiar or a semi-free magic item (arcane bond). The extra companions will help with surviving, even if they're nothing but meat-shields.
The clerics (and eventually the wizard) can learn and cast animate dead, which allows you to turn monsters into party treasure. Your GM taking a liking to throwing things like ogres, ettins, or bigger fare at you? Well when you kill them, then you have them as skeletons or zombies. You can even animate your fallen animal companions, since you get a replacement in 1 week if they snuff it.
The clerics can improve the power of the undead by casting desecrate before anyone animates them (make sure to do so in a place with an alter), which helps. If you make skeletons, then you can combo them with your wizard or sorcerer, since they are immune to spells like stinking cloud and cone of cold, which makes them ideal cannon fodder. They likewise have slightly good dexterity cores, a small natural armor buff, and can wear armor, making them decent tanks even without buffs.
The wizard should generally reserve most of his/her spells for buffs. Things like haste affects 1 target/level, which can get your party or large groups of your minions. If you don't have access to magic items, try to stick to buffs and avoid spells that target save DCs too directly (since you can't pump your saves very well).
The clerics and the druid are decent melee combatants, and I would recommend building them as hybrids (the clerics really only want enough wisdom to cast their spells, and the rest can be focused on survival stats and some combat ability. The druid is pretty much the same. You'll probably spend a good amount of time turned into a bear (while there are no stats for a medium bear, you can find the appropriate natural attacks for a medium bear - such as a black bear - in the creature rules).
The druid will want to pickup Augment Summoning, and be ready to use Summon Nature's Ally liberally as needed. If you can wear enemies down with multiple waves of expendable minions, it's better than losing your allies or yourself.
Finally, 3 of the 4 party members are divine casters and have access to healing spells. With this party, everyone should be able to craft wands and scrolls as needed, allowing you to use wands of cure light wounds to heal between fights.
Likewise, between the party, you have access to greater magic weapon, align weapon, magic vestment, shield of faith, knock, barkskin, and a huge variety of utility spells for reconnaissance, healing, buffing, shelter, and so forth.
The reason I advised 2 wizards in the case of a larger party was due to their ability to share their spellbooks, effectively doubling each wizard's possible prepared spells. Likewise, I'd recommend making at least one of the wizards a Necromancer (for Command Undead and no-save debuffs like ray of enfeeblement, ray of exhaustion, and waves of fatigue, for more minions), and another Wizard a Conjurerer or similar for battlefield control and possible summoning. Do not ban transmutation or illusion.
Also, for extra credit, purchase oxen (15 gp trade goods, see equipment) and have the druids train them with Handle Animal to be war mounts and/or attack animals. Each druid can train 3 at a time, and it will give you a cheap and renewable resource of powerful warbeasts (especially at low levels when a single auroch can kill a group of level 1 PCs or NPCs).
EDIT: Also, don't forget that clerics have Summon Monster I-IX as well, so animate undead in your downtime, and use summon monsters along side of them. Your entire group should come out looking something like this.
5th Level
4 characters
3 animal companions
40 HD worth of undead minions (I'd focus on your fallen animals as humanoids are poor and morally questionable to some).
Up to 4 summoned creatures per round (stuff like celestial aurochs and giant spiders to web enemies).
That should get you started.
Really covering your bases in party composition is the first step to tactical combat, as others have mentioned. Also, the way the Pathfinder system is set up, your best defense is usually a high-octane offense. Taking enemies out is a great way to limit the amount of actions they get, which is really the best way to defend yourself.
-You want someone who can own at range. Archer characters of many varieties are incredible sources of damage in Pathfinder. They can also disrupt opposing casters, take down fliers, respond to enemy ranged characters, etc. Casters can fill this role too, though tend to do less focused damage.
-You need front-liners to unleash high damage, roadblock or punish monsters from getting to squishier members of the party. High AC characters need to do more than simply have high AC. Either battlefield control through combat maneuvers, high damage to go along with their defense, buffing...just something aside from being hard to kill or else they will be ignored and not very useful.
-Heal outside of combat when possible. Healing doesn't keep up with enemy damage in most cases, so your actions are better spent reducing the amount of chances enemies have to hurt you. You fight pretty much as well at 1 hp as you do at full.
-Pump your initiative up. Going first is a very important strategy. This all goes back to the concept of getting more actions for yourself while limiting your enemy's number of actions taken. If you go before your enemies, combat usually plays out a lot better. A tank who can charge in and get in the face of an enemy goes a long way to limiting what that enemy can do. An ranged character who goes first gets a chance to full attack and thus put enemies down before they can even act.
-Concentration checks are hard for casters in Pathfinder, especially at lower levels. Force enemy casters to make them whenever you can and their effectiveness can be severely impacted.
-It's a bit meta-gamey, but enemies can only take one attack of opportunity per round (unless they have combat reflexes and decent dex, which is usually not the case). Know this, and take advantage of it. If there are situations where AoOs are going to have to happen (getting adjacent to monster with reach for example), have the character who is most able to handle taking the attack be the one to soak it up. If an enemy is threatening a caster, it is sometimes a good bet to purposefully draw his AoO with a more tanky character. Think of it as taunting someone to allow a more fragile person to make a getaway.
That's all off the top of my head!
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How and when do delayed actions prove useful?
When you are waiting for something to happen... for example delay until after you see if the wizard in your party's grease spell worked. I am a much bigger fan of Readying an action. For example if a creature is 40' away you can move 30' and ready an action to attack when it gets in reach.I'm afraid that doesn't work, since readying itself is a standard action (though you're explicitely allowed to ready another standard action). Or did I always interpret this wrong?
Edit:
I read it as the readying itself using up a standard action, not including the readied action.Ready
The ready action lets you prepare to take an action later, after your turn is over but before your next one has begun. Readying is a standard action. It does not provoke an attack of opportunity (though the action that you ready might do so).
Readying an Action
You can ready a standard action, a move action, a swift action, or a free action. To do so, specify the action you will take and the conditions under which you will take it. Then, anytime before your next action, you may take the readied action in response to that condition. The action occurs just before the action that triggers it. If the triggered action is part of another character's activities, you interrupt the other character. Assuming he is still capable of doing so, he continues his actions once you complete your readied action. Your initiative result changes. For the rest of the encounter, your initiative result is the count on which you took the readied action, and you act immediately ahead of the character whose action triggered your readied action.
You can take a 5-foot step as part of your readied action, but only if you don't otherwise move any distance during the round.
Remember that a Readied Action is DIFFERENT than Delaying your turn.
Both have advantages and disadvantages.
Ready: If you set the trigger right, it can be terrific, allowing potentially multiple attacks against an enemy coming after you (Ready goes, then potentially getting an AoO, too.) If you set the trigger wrong, you have wasted your standard action. Remember that a readied action interrupts the action that triggers it.
Delay: Basically, this is just changing your position in the initiative order, allowing you to wait to perform your turn until after some event you are waiting for occurs, but still allowing the use of full attacks, withdrawing, etc. It cannot interrupt an enemies turn, unlike a Ready, but suffers no other real limitation, you are just waiting to take your turn until later in the round. Note that you CANNOT delay your turn if you do ANYTHING at your normal initiative position, even a 5' step.
Each of these two actions have their own benefits and drawbacks.
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If you're not confident in your abilities as a gamer, I would recommend the sorcerer as a class. As long as you pick decent spells (such as Magic Missile, Grease, Silent Image, etc), you will never be useless. Ever.
Next, after that, I would recommend a fighter, barbarian, or paladin. It's pretty hard to go wrong with those guys. Just make sure you sink your feats into combat (power attack, deadly aim, rapid shot, cleave, etc) and you'll be fine.
I do NOT recommend playing a druid, wizard, or cleric until you're more confident in your abilities as a player. Those classes have a lot of paperwork and a lot of obscure powers that can be easily forgotten in the litany of possibilities. Sure, they're powerful, and everyone wants to play a powerful character. But you need to master the system to make the most of that power.
If your party has certain strengths, you can play to those strengths. One of my games has an all-caster party. We buff up and break into enemy strongholds in ways they don't expect us to manage, and often avoid their defenses while doing so.
My other game has a rogue, a ranger/rogue, and an alchemist. We tend to get the drop on enemies, flank them, and then slice them to bits with a ton of sneak attack damage.
Party make-up has a huge effect on the way each character plays. In the all-caster game, my wizard spends his rounds buffing and managing risk for the party, while the magus does all the damage and engages the enemy. In a party full of fighters, that same magus might do better with the buffs and control spells than with pouring out the hurt. My ranger/rogue is the guy who confronts and damages the enemy, since he's in a party with a rogue and an alchemist. In a party with more muscle, he'd be relegated to supporting the front lines with a polearm, or being sneaky.
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1. Delayed actions prove useful when you want to wait for buffs from the casters or if you are not sure of the best course of action.
It's also helpful to delay for many other things. One example is at the beginning of combat delay until after your enemy moves closer to you so that you can then move to him and attack after his chance to attack has passed. Another is to have a squishy character delay when standing next to a melee enemy until after their heavily armored friend has moved around and baited the attack of opportunity from said enemy.
2. If you specialize in combat maneuvers than can be affective but generally speaking damage is better. I will also add that if your DM uses monsters as opposed to humanoids that at higher levels combat maneuvers become less reliable.
Combat maneuvers are better in the rare instances where positioning an enemy in a specific place will lead to more damage or survivability. For instance, bull rushing someone off a mountain or tripping an opponent while two or three melee PCs are standing next to him so he can't escape (and provokes AoOs when trying to fight back).
3. If you are trying to protect the squishes it is very important to be in the correct position whether using maneuvers or just trying to do damage.
Positioning is one of the most important things in the game that you have total control over (no randomization). Knowing when to flank (almost always), charge, and fight defensively are huge. All three of these things require good positioning to have maximum effectiveness.
4. Cover is better for the ranged types and sneaky types
You want cover on any character that doesn't require an attack roll to hit at all times (wizards, sorcerers, support clerics, etc). If you can position yourself to get cover before disengaging an enemy that's very nice as well because cover prevents AoOs, but it's rare that someone needing an attack roll will want cover since it works for both you and your opponent.
5. Stealth is mainly used for scouting, and the occasional ambush to get a surprise round. Just be sure you have cover or concealment.
I've read many guides (including Sun Tzu's Art of War) that believe stealth is a huge benefit. In my experience all it does is force the party to be spread out further than tactically optimal unless everyone in your party is stealthy (or a rare situation like a halfling rogue archer that requires stealth for combat).
6. An all melee party is not a good idea, especially with a lack of gear. The same goes for an all ranged party. They would also have trouble at higher levels since magic is normally needed for certain things.
They both should operate by buying their cemetary plots in advance.
7.Don't waste time or money on traps. Ambushes can be done in several ways, but you have to be able to set the enemy up. Lying, putting out false information to get them to the correct spot, scouting and other methods are good for ambushes.
Agreed. Ambushes don't often happen and usually aren't worth setting up unless your DM is particularly abusive with the CR/EL rules. Light rules are really nothing but a minor hindrance, but it really adds to the depth of the game. Unless your party always has darkvision using light rules hurts your party more than helps, since it'll always make your party a target in dark areas.
8. An all anything party is normally a bad idea. It makes it hard to cover several bases. What can or can not work depends a lot on the GM though. Some GM's will change things to suit what you are playing, but with others sometimes somebody has to play their 2nd choice for the survival of the group.
All-whatever parties can be good, but they're best reserved for more experienced gamers who are looking for a different type of challenge. The fighter, cleric, rogue, and wizard party is iconic for a reason. The entire challenge level of the game is based around this type of party.
I also want to add in that you should really check into the "aid another" action. This simple and often overlooked standard ability can turn hard fought combats into easy victories in certain situations. You should also check out the thread that lists standard equipment everyone should carry by Painlord in the PFS forums. Having simple items like silver weapons, alchemists fire, and potions of fly can turn defeat into victory very easily.
One thing that hasn't been mentioned.
If you (GM or player) hasn't made up your mind on what to do when your turn comes up, delaying your action speeds up play and creates a better flow in my experience. Also it's more realistic, IMO, in terms of PCs/NPCs not always knowing what to do all the time.
I'm afraid that doesn't work, since readying itself is a standard action (though you're explicitely allowed to ready another standard action). Or did I always interpret this wrong?
I read it as the readying itself using up a standard action, not including the readied action.
Move 30 feet (move action)
Ready an action to attack (standard action)You can make a move action and a standard action in the same turn, where is the problem?
Sorry for the slight off topic again, but my mistake was seeing "ready an action" as a standard action itself in addition to the action being readied. But since it was kind of weird that you could also ready a standard action (which would make two of those if ready and the readied action were treated seperately) and you being 0gre, I thought some more, asked in another thread and am now happily corrected and see readying as being a lot more useful than I had previously thought.
Well you've got tons of advice already but if I had another advice it will be to play a bit to BB (Blood Bowl)... There's a good PC game if you don't want to play to the gameboard, just play in turn by turn and it will be almost the same as playing the gameboard ;)
I've done this with my players because they had lots of problems with positioning, especially with the movement and attack of opportunity (aka the tacle zone in BB). I've played some matchs with them and last session they were way better in combat, especially with positioning.
BB use a lot of special skills gained by level, you have to check which player has which ability, give them new one each level etc. so my players check more often their options in combat since they played BB.
A combat in PF with minis is very tactical... But my players has come to enjoy these party very much now ;)
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I know this isn't the thread topic but when I see this "playing smart" idea it makes me think. There are a couple of reasons this could come up. The DM/group could be picking on you because you may not know the rules or concept of the game well. You may just make stupid decisions in the heat of the moment. The majority of cases I've seen are where the DM or group is picking on you. If this is the case I'd try to find a new group and leave the current one if the new group works out (that's what I did). If the DM/group is nice and this isn't the problem I'd suggest sitting next to one of the players who really knows their stuff and always makes the right choices and ask him for advice often.
I know this isn't the thread topic but when I see this "playing smart" idea it makes me think. There are a couple of reasons this could come up. The DM/group could be picking on you because you may not know the rules or concept of the game well. You may just make stupid decisions in the heat of the moment. The majority of cases I've seen are where the DM or group is picking on you. If this is the case I'd try to find a new group and leave the current one if the new group works out (that's what I did). If the DM/group is nice and this isn't the problem I'd suggest sitting next to one of the players who really knows their stuff and always makes the right choices and ask him for advice often.
A lot of the problems I'd listed in the OP my group have well and truly passed. People seem to have misinterpreted me, so sorry for the confusion.
Having gone into 3.5 blind at about 14, we were all pretty hopeless. Almost four years on, we more or less know the system back to front. That said, there are a wealth of options me and my group have never touched. For example, the light, cover, and ready/delaying rules, or fighting defensively (I don't think I've seen this at the table in my four years gaming).
So to clarify my original post, I'm more interested in party coordination, proper action economy and tactical gameplay beyond "I run at them" and "I full attack", both for being a player and creating interesting encounters for my group of new players.
I also want to add in that you should really check into the "aid another" action. This simple and often overlooked standard ability can turn hard fought combats into easy victories in certain situations. You should also check out the thread that lists standard equipment everyone should carry by Painlord in the PFS forums
I've browsed through Painlords threads and found no such post, unfortunately. Any chance of a link?
And fighting defensively and aid another are two more actions I'm not sure of the value of. Are they used often at others tables? And thanks for a great thread, everybody. It's been very enlightening.
I know this isn't the thread topic but when I see this "playing smart" idea it makes me think. There are a couple of reasons this could come up. The DM/group could be picking on you because you may not know the rules or concept of the game well. You may just make stupid decisions in the heat of the moment. The majority of cases I've seen are where the DM or group is picking on you. If this is the case I'd try to find a new group and leave the current one if the new group works out (that's what I did). If the DM/group is nice and this isn't the problem I'd suggest sitting next to one of the players who really knows their stuff and always makes the right choices and ask him for advice often.A lot of the problems I'd listed in the OP my group have well and truly passed. People seem to have misinterpreted me, so sorry for the confusion.
Having gone into 3.5 blind at about 14, we were all pretty hopeless. Almost four years on, we more or less know the system back to front. That said, there are a wealth of options me and my group have never touched. For example, the light, cover, and ready/delaying rules, or fighting defensively (I don't think I've seen this at the table in my four years gaming).
So to clarify my original post, I'm more interested in party coordination, proper action economy and tactical gameplay beyond "I run at them" and "I full attack", both for being a player and creating interesting encounters for my group of new players.
I also want to add in that you should really check into the "aid another" action. This simple and often overlooked standard ability can turn hard fought combats into easy victories in certain situations. You should also check out the thread that lists standard equipment everyone should carry by Painlord in the PFS forumsI've browsed through Painlords threads and found no such post, unfortunately. Any chance of a link?
And fighting defensively and aid another are two more actions I'm not sure of the...
Give us an example of an actual battle including party composition and we can try to improve on it. :)
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I've browsed through Painlords threads and found no such post, unfortunately. Any chance of a link?
Painlord's What To Expect At A PFS Table
And fighting defensively and aid another are two more actions I'm not sure of the value of. Are they used often at others tables? And thanks for a great thread, everybody. It's been very enlightening.
In a typical four hour PFS mod I imagine we average about 5 aid another actions and about 2 fighting defensively actions. The value changes depending on the math. If your enemy is hitting you on 2's then spending an action to add 2 to AC still leaves him with an 85% chance to hit. However, if he's hitting on 15's then adding 2 AC means he only hits 20% of the time.
Likewise, if you're already hitting your enemy on 2's then someone spending their action to increase your attack by 2 isn't very helpful. Typically aid another actions are used by arcane casters who have already used a spell or two but need to reserve more, rogues who can't find a way to get their sneak attack (vs. elementals and such), or support clerics who have already pre-buffed but don't need to spend an action healing yet.
Withdraw is another action you should be intimately familiar with. It flat out saves lives.
Give us an example of an actual battle including party composition and we can try to improve on it. :)
I'm actually, how should I say... between parties after my latest death. It's a sad tale, and mostly irrelevant, I'm more or less aware of the sources of the problem, and am just looking at ways to address it.
Thus we begun our foray into pathfinder, with a new party of 9th level characters.
Twigs - Gutless coward and cockney monk. (Str Build, in lieu of Treantmonk's guide... a revival of my rogue character for a party of casters, can flurry with his dagger as well as fists due to a houserule)
Fishy Joe - Creepy druid extrordinaire (An ex-warlock, I believe he had the weather domain with a slightly buffed blast power)
Michael - A support Oracle, and replacement for our wizard. We didnt quite know our way around the class, and the character's been forgotten as quickly as he was made. (May have been poorly built, the class remains a bit of a mystery to us.
And finally, a DMPC, Evi. He claims she was a homebrewed support class, mainly aiding another and flanking in combat. This is all we've seen of her. One short, brutal combat.
Our foes? Redcaps. I believe they're from a 3.5 monster manual, but they've been our main foe in this campaign (probably heavily homebrewed), and one of our main killers. High Str, damage reduction, fey HD, scythes (and thus a 4x crit range) and godly rolls have made them a terrifying foe.
So naturally, my first instinct when we have the drop on them is to 'not let my surprise round go to waste' by running straight at them, leaving my party in the dust with my 50ft. landspeed. (Mistake #1)
My first instinct, being surrounded by two redcaps, was to withdraw. I did not. (Mistake #2) It would take the rest of the party two rounds to enter the fray, in which time I'd heavily damaged one of my opponents with a cold iron knife. Evi has entered the fray but has done little to extract me from my predicament, surrounded by two redcaps with a third en-route. Our druid summoned an auroch, which charged through difficult terrain and tripped up, coming to a stop. Our oracle had casted some buff or another. The redcaps were immune to my stunning fist (something about being plant-type, but perhaps this a quality of the fey subtype?)
Things progressed from here relatively smoothly, though Twigs was on his last legs, we had downed two redcaps and blinded a third. Staying in the fray was my third and final mistake. With its pitiful to-hit roll, blindness penalties and my concealment, landed and confirmed a 4x critical hit, and my guts were spilling all over the floor.
Now, I know not how much of this has to do with a relatively weak party, our DMs brutal combats (though to be fair, as he pointed out, engaging the redcaps had, and usually is, our own judgement call) and the playstyle of my other group members. I can only pick out my own poor decisions.
From here, we're continuing the game in hell, and I've been stripped of all my magical items once again (though I realise that engaging a pit fiend head on is a bad idea no matter how you slice it, the next few games will likely be less combat focused.) and I have a game of RotR running (relatively successfully, at that. My combats have been much more gentle. Perhaps too much so.) and another starting up with entirely new players, once one returns from Greece. But, again, this is mostly irrelevant.
No end of thanks for this link and your input, Demoyn. This should work wonders. Thanks to The_Normal_Anomaly for your "Smart Fighter" link too, way, way up.
I've no more questions to pitch to you guys, but I'll be following this thread religiously for any more tactics discussion.
I think the rest of the party has to address it also. Targeting allies is not the way to success. I have not looked anything up, but questionalbe rulings on the GM's part such as the fey being immune to stunning come to mind.
Running to the enemy first when you are not the main combat guy is not good either, but I see you realize that.
In short assess the situation. That is all you can do for yourself. When in such a party as the one you were in be prepared to bolt.
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Probably my best example of using fighting defensively was with my inquisitor. He was being attacked by wights which have a fairly low chance to hit to begin with, but energy drain is a nasty penalty for getting hit. My inquisitor fought defensively (and put his judgement into AC) making himself nearly impossible to hit and absorbing a lot of attacks that would have devastated our parties barbarian. As soon as the party finished off the rest I switched back to offense and we finished the two wights my inquisitor was occupying as a team.
I don't use fighting defensively useful often but it's a good tool to know is there for those situations where it can shine.
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Withdraw is another action you should be intimately familiar with. It flat out saves lives.
We have a GM who loves the Withdraw action, and yes, it saves NPC lives all the time. The only problem is that we have to keep reminding him again and again that you can't withdraw from a flanked position without drawing an AoO from somebody.
Loengrin's comments on Blood Bowl are spot on. Blood Bowl is an EXCELLENT game to teach players the importance of positioning and comparing skills. When I first heard about how Attacks of Opportunity work, is said, "Oh, that's just Dodging in Blood Bowl. Easy!"
It does sound like there may have been some poor judgment calls by your DM, but I cannot say for certain. The x4 crit from a blinded redcap... that should be just bad luck, right? A roll of 20 followed by a roll of, I don't know, 19-20, followed by a 50% miss chance? Something that only has one chance in 400 in happening?
Doing the math is a big help here.
Redcaps are detailed in one of the RotRL books. I think your DM is cheesing things up a lil.
Lots of good, direct advice and answers already, so I am going to address the OPs questions at a higher level. How does a player learn to be more effective in combat?
I have a reputation with my gaming groups as being a tactician and combat optimizer. I also have a reputation for building highly effective combat character builds without resorting to cheesy min/maxed builds.
And the best answer that I can come up with for people who are looking to be more effective in combat is to think before you act, and to be aware of your party members' individual strengths and weaknesses.
For example, in a 4e game I play, we had a controller who could use multiple abilities to daze multiple enemy combatants. My ranger would routinely move down the initiative order until just after the controller's turn so that he could pick a target from the dazed enemies and maximize his ability to take the enemy out.
It is difficult to give any specific advice about combat since so much of combat effectiveness is based on the ability to react to combat situations and make on-the-fly decisions based on rapidly changing tactical opportunities.
Some general suggestions that are mostly applicable to most combat situations would be:
1. Focus party fire on targets. Most combat encounters boil down to maximizing your party's damage output while minimizing the enemy's damage out put. One of the best ways to reduce the damage output of the enemy is to reduce the number of enemies. The easiest way to take out an enemy is to focus your damage on that one target so it goes down in one round.
2. Improve your odds. The best way to do this is to be aware of the benefits of spells, items, potions and scrolls which improve your key combat statistics. Spells which buff your AC reduce your damage taken, while spells which buff your strength increase your damage given (at least for melee characters). I see many games in our local gaming store where the party seems to ignore the benefits of buffing the party. Some parties seem to think it's a waste of spells better put to doing damage.
3. Counter the enemy's prime abilities. This is something that requires knowledge about the enemy's abilities. Sometimes you know that, sometimes you don't. When you don't, be aware that you can use certain knowledge checks to see if your character has some knowledge about the enemy. Get into the habit of using your knowledge skill checks to ensure that you have as much knowledge about the enemy as possible. Knowledge is power.
4. Utilize terrain. Again, this is highly situational, but in general this means taking advantage of the physical environment to gain tactical advantages against the enemy. Ranged party members can use partial cover to improve their chance of avoiding damage, as can spellcasters. Melee characters can use positioning to gain flanking, or can use difficult terrain to keep the enemy from moving past them to engage the "squishy" party members. The best way to take advantage of movement and positioning is to know the movement and positioning rules inside and out. For example, learn how to utilize hard corners to your advantage to force enemies to reduce their movement range or to accept attacks of opportunity as the cost of moving past melee characters.
5. When you have to make a character design choice between advancing your attack bonus vs advancing your damage, it is almost always better to increase your ability to hit. Damage bonuses are meaningless if you don't hit the enemy first. As I said I have a reputation for being a combat damage powerhouse, and that is primarily because my melee or ranged characters rarely miss. My first and most important battle consideration is "how do I increase my odds to hit?" So feats or abilities which provide attack bonuses are generally more important than feats or abilities which provide damage bonuses. Only when I am comfortable that my attacks are just about as likely to hit as I can make them do I start adding damage bonuses. Anything that provides both attack and damage bonuses (such as a strength buff to a melee character) is preferable to one or the other.
6. Do your best to set up full attack opportunities. If your characters are buffed appropriately and getting full attacks each round, you can double your overall damage output. In some cases it is better to sacrifice one character's attacks to provide another character with the ability to gain full attacks. Any round that a rogue can gain sneak attack bonuses is a round you want them to get full attacks.
7. Control the battlefied. This is undoubtedly the area where I see the least focus from most parties I watch in combat. In general a party where the spellcasters are controlling the battlefield is a more effective party than one where the spellcasters are blasting away at the enemy. Spells which blind, entangle, daze, stun, fear, etc. are spells which completely change the battle dynamic. A feared enemy is an enemy that is not doing damage, and that means your party can focus damage on other enemies without taking damage from the feared one. There are so many spells which control the battlefield that it is a constant source of amazement to me how many parties turn every encounter into a WWF steel cage death match. There's no reason to do that unless you just like to role play battles that way. But it's by far the least effective way to run a battle and provides the most chance that your party will take more damage than it needs to.
The bottom line is that you need to think. Not just about your move, you need to think about what other characters are doing and coordinate your actions. Your party needs to view themselves as a team and develop tactics and strategies which take advantage of their strengths and deflect attention away from their weaknesses.
I see so many gamers who wander around, or chat with a friend, or text on their phones until it is their turn, then they rush up and attack the nearest enemy and then go back to their other activities. That's fine if that's how they enjoy playing and the group operates that way, but if you want to be effective in combat, your entire party needs to be talking, coordinating and engaged through the entire encounter.
Give us an example of an actual battle including party composition and we can try to improve on it. :)I'm actually, how should I say... between parties after my latest death. It's a sad tale, and mostly irrelevant, I'm more or less aware of the sources of the problem, and am just looking at ways to address it.
** spoiler omitted **...
Str Monks need friends. Much like Spider-Man, with great movement speed comes great responsibility. With your d8 especially, if withdrawal sounds smart, do it (the main reason not to is if fleeing won't help and someone's probably going to die either way).
A campaign based primarily around creatures with scythes is very cruel, especially if your wealth is too low - you're guaranteed to get crushed every once in awhile and your access to methods of prevention (like Fortification on your armor) are inhibited. I recommend that anyone who's not a flat-out rear-line-only combatant try to squeeze feats like Dodge or Toughness into their build for a bit more insurance against enemy luck. Also consider maxing out HP to be a good policy whenever you expect to fight these things (Cure Light Wounds wand is probably the best way).