So I am starting a kingmaker campaign and one of my PC asks me if he can play a half-orc with the Giant creature template from the Bestiary 2. My question is twofold one should I allow this? and if I do, does the +1 CR adjustment convert directly to the old 3.5 one level adjustment, meaning he will have to level to 3rd, to get his actual 2nd character level? or is it more?
Oh the fluff behind it is he is a "Half-ogre" and be is going to play a ranger.
yeah the thing that really got me was the +3 NA on top of the ability bonuses. That aside, are you saying that it is legal though? That the +1 CR does mean ECL of +1?
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yeah the thing that really got me was the +3 NA on top of the ability bonuses. That aside, are you saying that it is legal though? That the +1 CR does mean ECL of +1?
Not at all. I'm saying it does not.
The rules are intentionally vague on ECL. They explicitly did this to leave it up to the GM.
This 1 CR template was a tool given to GMs to toughen up an encounter without having to advance by HD. It is not a thing for players, and is not balanced in that way.
I'd have to think longer about the ECL I'd give it, but much, much higher than +1, that's for sure.
so what if you have an oversized half orc?
he has an early lead, but will eventually be outshined by the faster progression of the other PCs.
that lost level hurts.
you know how taking item creation feats is essentially selling feat slots for cash?
taking templates is like the same thing, only, you trade levels instead of feats, and the 'cash' can never truly be revoked.
the advanced creature template is the better deal. it's less specialized, but is more generic in application. and thus applies to more variety of builds.
For a combat character, a +1 level adjustment is a pittance compared with the massive advantage of being large, let alone the stat bonuses and natural armour.
A large character can be further enlarged by large person (and other effects), and can then threaten a 15 foot radius with a non-reach weapon.
Who remembers spiked chain cheese? It's that all over again and more.
My biggest concern is making sure its legit. A ECL of +1 for a +4 to strength and stam, +3 NA, then a size category increase, and only a -2 dex for a penalty. That the equivalent of a built in Belt of physical might(40,000g), necklace of +3 NA(18,000g) and a permanency enlarge spell. For one level, I don't know when that lost level would hurt him really?
The game is a 20 point buy, to give you some idea.
so what if you have an oversized half orc?
he has an early lead, but will eventually be outshined by the faster progression of the other PCs.
that lost level hurts.
you know how taking item creation feats is essentially selling feat slots for cash?
taking templates is like the same thing, only, you trade levels instead of feats, and the 'cash' can never truly be revoked.
the advanced creature template is the better deal. it's less specialized, but is more generic in application. and thus applies to more variety of builds.
I would definitely trade on level for the giant template. He will actually not fall behind either. At the most he will be one level back, but the template more than makes up for it.
Giant Creature (+1)Creatures with the giant template are larger and stronger than their normal-sized kin. This template cannot be applied to creatures that are Colossal.
Quick Rules: +2 to all rolls based on Str or Con, +2 hp/HD, –1 penalty on all rolls based on Dex.
Rebuild Rules: Size increase by one category; AC increase natural armor by +3; Attacks increase dice rolled by 1 step; Ability Scores +4 size bonus to Str and Con, –2 Dex.
Fighter I am using in a current PbP with giant size added
AC 19 touch 12 , flat-footed 17 ( Dex +2 , dodge , deflection , armor +7 )
CMD 18
Offense
Base Atk 3 ; CMB ; 6 (BAB +3, Str +3)
Melee MW Dwarven Urgosh +8 (+3 BAB, +3 Strength, +1 MW weapon, +1 Weapon Training); 1d8/1d6+5 (3 Strength bonus x 1.5, +1 Weapon Training)
TWF: MW Dwarven Urgosh +6/6 (+3 BAB, +3 Strength, +1 MW weapon, +1 Weapon Training, -2 TWF)
1d8/1d6+4 (3 Strength bonus+1 weapon training)
1d8/1d6+4 (3 Strength bonus due to double slice)
AC 21 touch 11 , flat-footed 19 ( Dex +2 , dodge , deflection , armor +7, nat armor +3, size -1)
CMD 21
Offense
Base Atk 3 ; CMB ; 9 (BAB +3, Str +5, +1 size)
Melee MW Dwarven Urgosh +9 (+3 BAB, +5 Strength, +1 MW weapon, +1 Weapon Training, -1 size); 2d6/1d8+8 (5 Strength bonus x 1.5, +1 Weapon Training)
TWF: MW Dwarven Urgosh +6/6 (+3 BAB, +5 Strength, +1 MW weapon, +1 Weapon Training, -2 TWF, -1 size)
2d6+5/1d8+5
2d6+6 (5 Strength bonus+1 weapon training)
1d8+6 (5 Strength bonus due to double slice)
Differences
AC+2
base weapon damage goes from 8.5 to 15 for the two-handed attack
TWF goes from 7.5/6.5 to 13/10.5 for damage
CMB goes up by 3 and so does CMD. HP goes up by 6. At level 4 I get to add a point to strength which makes the divide even bigger. I should also be getting a belt of that gives a +2 to strength or a magic weapon soon.
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Adding templates hurts skills and hp more than anything else, which the hp hit can be fatal, and the skill loss can also be bad. The loss of levels means you get spells later, which typically means it's no good for casters. Combat characters are really the only ones who will take them and for the most part, it's simply not worth it. Unless it gets you some extra form of movement, spells, or something else actually useful, you are simply better off being higher level, because the system rewards you for staying normal.
Reach is fine and dandy, but you must remember: it's also very limiting, NPCs and bad guys are going to respond to it differently, usually in panic or with ranged attacks, it's not very useful when you can't fit in the dungeon, and buying equipment suddenly becomes very expensive.
Adding templates hurts skills and hp more than anything else, which the hp hit can be fatal, and the skill loss can also be bad. The loss of levels means you get spells later, which typically means it's no good for casters. Combat characters are really the only ones who will take them and for the most part, it's simply not worth it. Unless it gets you some extra form of movement, spells, or something else actually useful, you are simply better off being higher level, because the system rewards you for staying normal.
Reach is fine and dandy, but you must remember: it's also very limiting, NPCs and bad guys are going to respond to it differently, usually in panic or with ranged attacks, it's not very useful when you can't fit in the dungeon, and buying equipment suddenly becomes very expensive.
Reach is not limiting. Being large is though. Ranged attacks come at any melee type that can do a lot of damage. Being large only increases the base price of the equipment which is not that much of an issue.
I don't think he was putting this template on a caster though. It would make him weaker overall.|
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I definitely wouldn't allow this, especially not at a +1 LA. Assuming he leaves his str and con at 10, he's essentially getting a 28 point buy, and that's assuming he doesn't put the half-orc +2 into str. If he really wants to play a half-ogre, there's one here. It's third party, though, but since you're the DM you can give it the ok.
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Reach is not limiting. Being large is though. Ranged attacks come at any melee type that can do a lot of damage. Being large only increases the base price of the equipment which is not that much of an issue.
I don't think he was putting this template on a caster though. It would make him weaker overall.
I didn't say that reach was limiting, I said it was fine and dandy, but not worth the trade off of not being able to enter some dungeons and most places meant for people. What you really want are the bonuses to stats., the reach, and category change to your damage, but without the size change.
The real difference is that most combatants will join melee with a them-sized opponent without hesitation, but when they see a dude that's 20 feet tall, they aren't going to hesitate to shoot it instead, while they try to find a place that keeps the big person away from them. The increase of the base price of equipment is bad, especially at the beginning, where your big guy is far more likely to be.
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There is actually a "Half-Ogre" template in Bestiary 2 -- the Ogrekin. It is a +1 CR, so you'd probably want to give the character at least a +1 "LA". See this for guidelines on monster PCs.