There is a metamagic feat that forces oppponents to re-roll saves they just made. I don't remember the name right now.
Otherwise I suggest focusing on buffing ally fighters and summons.
Monks can be a pain, but they are not that hard to beat for a fighter.
[comes from an occasional monk player]
Im looking for a sure fire way that would demolish a monk npc with crazy DR or buffs on him.
If you have the level for it; wave of exhaustion
Monks don't get DR unless it is from the race, and in that case we need to know the race to find out how to bypass the DR. The SR may be from the race also.
How you build your cleric will also determine the best way to handle the monks.
In general making monks make saves is not a great idea. As far as fighting them you would handle that the same way you handle any melee opponent. Pump your AC and fighting abilities. This is best done by cherry picking domains and sub domains.
There is a cleric guide on here that gives great suggestions for that.
Normally though it us better to buff the fighter types and let them deal with the monks and any other melee threats.
Do you have the names of some of the mods? I own a few PFS scenarios, so if I have one you already ran through it is easier for me to give suggestions on how things could have been handled easier.
I'll second that. my lvl 10 monk could basically move a where on the battlefield or simply leave by running 240' I'n a straight line if needed. during the final battle of the campaign I with waves of fatigue. suddenly no running or charging. ot really changed the fight. exhaustion would be worse. though its funny a class so many think is weak( personally in think. onk is fine) is causing issues.
I think this is where a controller can come in handy. Grease, Wall of Ice, Flaming Sphere, Summon Monster, any spells that can deny or force an opponent to use space may be good to keep the monk where you want him, and allow your ranged fighters to fight him at range.
I'll second that. my lvl 10 monk could basically move a where on the battlefield or simply leave by running 240' I'n a straight line if needed. during the final battle of the campaign I with waves of fatigue. suddenly no running or charging. ot really changed the fight. exhaustion would be worse. though its funny a class so many think is weak( personally in think. onk is fine) is causing issues.
That is why I wanted the mod name. I have never had a problem with them. I am thinking that is one fine GM, or the players are not meshing as a unit.
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I've noticed a few PFS mods now with monk villains that have absurdly good saves, high AC and sometimes good spell resistance or DR. What's the best way for an aspiring min maxer bad touch Cleric to shut these guys down?
Kill them. With damage.
Seriously, you don't have anything to fear from monks in PFS.
Get AC. Monks can't hit to save their lives compared to real martial classes. Even my optimized lv10 monk was barely able to get up to +14 or so on his best attack. By lv10, pumping your ac up to that level should not be overly hard.
Also, avoid full-attacks. Then they have only one attack at medium BAB.
I agree keep them from making full attacks and you should be set. get spring attack and a high ac and that will probably force him to retreat.
Best way to beat a monk is with another monk. You just need to be the one to get your monk combo/lock down off first.
A monk with his salt will disarm your weapons and throw you all over the battle field so don't let him do this.
Or enough ranged fighters/rangers. He may have deflect arrows so one shot is ignored each round, but after that you as a walking quiver (soon to be bleeding on the ground dying quiver)
So basically a monk should hit in a range between a high BaB character and medium BaB character. If a monk mult-classes, his BaB with flurry should equal his level plus his BaB from other classes, if say hey goes wizards this should limit his secondary and tertiary attacks.
For saves a monk has the highest saves in a game, although multiclassing will limit his saves.
Traditionally a monk will not be able to take allot of punishment, since he is MAD mutiple attribute dependant, so battlefield conditions will probably help him more.
Monk will have high CMD and CMB and will likely have a high touch ac.
So weaknesses for a monk would be high direct damage, and attribute drain.
Seriously, you don't have anything to fear from monks in PFS.
Really? I have a wizard who got nearly beaten into a pulp by one in one round who'd disagree. Not to mention all the enemies who were simply put out of the fight by a streak of lightning in a black leather coat who showed up faster than he had a right to and then just grabbed them.
Especially arcanists should fear monks. Before you know it they'll be beside you. Then they grapple you. Say goodbye to your spellcasting, you won't make the concentration checks. Then he'll use grapple to move you away from your allies. At half his speed, he's still faster than your party's fighter at full, and he gets to make two grapple checks. That means soon you'll be far away from your friends. Hope he doesn't have friends of his own. They might hold up your friends while he switches from moving away with grapple to making you stop living.
Doesn't have to work out that way, but the chances aren't bad. And even if it doesn't work out all the way, he has a great chance to take the wizard out of the fight for a while.
And there's a word for being in that situation: Sucks.
Even my optimized lv10 monk was barely able to get up to +14 or so on his best attack.Really?
Let's run a few numbers here:
STR 22 (16base+2race+2item+2levelbumps) = +6 to hit
Full attack BAB = 10
Flurry penalty = -2
Haste = +1
Magic = +1
Ioun stone = +1This is +17 and it's not even trying much. You could easily get a weapon or enchantment to give you +2-3 for magic, and other buffs to increase things further.
That said, you are right in wishing to avoid full attacks as the monk is nerfed in its medium BAB straight-jacket.
But as others have said, simply pound the guy.. what level are we talking about here that his AC is so 'good'?
Likely you are looking at someone that's chosen the timing of the fight against you.. he's buffed via potion and/or spell. Dispel him.. a lot.
-James
Haste is situational, and that Ioun Stone is expensive for lv10.
The OP asked for ways as a cleric to shut it down so buff spells. Actually since monks have to be lawful protection from law will help on the fighters from getting attacked by monks if you know ahead of time. Bless and have everyone attack at low levels or other good buff spells.
the monk I mention I'n my previous post had+18 to hit with a temple sword flurry, ki point haste gorgons wrath and an appropriate opponent with like 8 attacks all but 2 at highest BaB. really i like the class and disagree with the bad wrap I'm glad to see they are at least kicking butt as npc.
heroism does a plot to help.
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A well armored fighter wielding a two handed weapon with good strength and appropriate feats should be able to eat a monk for lunch (or a late afternoon snack ;) if the monk tries to go toe-to-toe with him. Buff that fighter (haste, bless, bard bonuses - whatever) and things will go even worse for the poor monk. Melee classes that don't have high attack bonuses (rogues, TWF'ers, etc) are the ones that are going to have problems with the monk - especially if he is buffed up with Stoneskin. the fighter mentioned above (who should have an adamantine weapon for occassions like this...) is going to bash through that DR with Power Attack and high STR damage.
The best way for a bad touch cleric to take down a monk is not to be a bad touch cleric for now. Assuming you are at least semi competent in combat buff yourself to hell. Monks have no real weakness except maybe normal AC vs. a full BAB character. Most martial classes will do better vs. a monk than anything else. If the monk is going up against an arcane caster he will probably win.
A cleric can beat the monk, but not with direct spells. The best way is to make sure you take Heavy Armor Proficiency and Tank out. Memorize as many buffs that stack and beat the living daylight out of him. It will be a tough fight but you have a good chance to win as long as you can prepare. If he ambushes you which he can easily do you are going to be hard pressed to survive.
Other people have suggested buffing the martial classes and that is actually your best bet. An Paladin or Antipaladin fighting an evil, or good monk will probably the best shot.
I forgot to add earlier that monks also have a really high touch AC most of the time so touching them is an adventure onto itself.
you can easily defeat a monk with a series of well placed grease spells
you can get a wand for 750 gold pieces.
i can't explain very well, but i will try
my explanations would likely be skewed by weakly william's fudging.
but rules as written, as far as i know and can interpret.
everyone walking on a greased area is flat footed without uncanny dodge.
when you are flat footed, you can neither deflect arrows nor make attacks of oppurtunity. the latter can be fixed by a feat.
a monk loses a great deal of his AC bonuses when flat footed, Dexterity bonus, dodge bonus, and wisdom based class feature bonus. all lost.
greased area is diffult terrain, meaning 5 feet is really 10. meaning any movement denies flurry, which hampers the monk more than any other class.
the reflex save for walking on greased sqaures applies for every greased square you walk upon, eventually, a monk will fail this at some point.
getting up is a move action, unless you have the stand up ability, which is a rogue talent, provokes either way though. where it becomes a free action.
crawling 5 feet is a full round action unless you have rogue crawl, which is also a rogue talent. where then it becomes half speed as a move action. either way, it provokes.
your attack bonus matters a lot less against a monk walking on a massive greased zone. as he likely lost more than half or his armor class bonuses. think potentially three quarters, maybe more. any attack from even a reasonable combatant will deal quite a bit of damage. and low accuracy/High damage builds will tear him apart. like 2WF rogues or Master Chymist builds.
a monk loses a great deal of his AC bonuses when flat footed, Dexterity bonus, dodge bonus, and wisdom based class feature bonus. all lost.greased area is diffult terrain, meaning 5 feet is really 10. meaning any movement denies flurry, which hampers the monk more than any other class.
Monks don't lose their insight bonus (the wisdom + level bonus) when they're flat-footed.
And note that if the rogue is a grappler, he only needs his standard action (to initialise grappling) anyway (move actions to maintain). In that case, his improved speed/mobility will mean he still has an edge. Plus, he's less likely to fall than, say fighters.
The main disadvantage a grappler has is that he can only take on a single enemy. That single enemy is in deep shit (a monk focussed on grappling will have a frighteningly high CMB/CMD), but the others are, to some extend, free to act (ranged attacks of any sort are still a risky proposal since you have a 50% chance of hitting your friend).
you can easily defeat a monk with a series of well placed grease spells
you can get a wand for 750 gold pieces.
i can't explain very well, but i will try
my explanations would likely be skewed by weakly william's fudging.
but rules as written, as far as i know and can interpret.
everyone walking on a greased area is flat footed without uncanny dodge.
when you are flat footed, you can neither deflect arrows nor make attacks of oppurtunity. the latter can be fixed by a feat.
a monk loses a great deal of his AC bonuses when flat footed, Dexterity bonus, dodge bonus, and wisdom based class feature bonus. all lost.
greased area is diffult terrain, meaning 5 feet is really 10. meaning any movement denies flurry, which hampers the monk more than any other class.
the reflex save for walking on greased sqaures applies for every greased square you walk upon, eventually, a monk will fail this at some point.
getting up is a move action, unless you have the stand up ability, which is a rogue talent, provokes either way though. where it becomes a free action.
crawling 5 feet is a full round action unless you have rogue crawl, which is also a rogue talent. where then it becomes half speed as a move action. either way, it provokes.
your attack bonus matters a lot less against a monk walking on a massive greased zone. as he likely lost more than half or his armor class bonuses. think potentially three quarters, maybe more. any attack from even a reasonable combatant will deal quite a bit of damage. and low accuracy/High damage builds will tear him apart. like 2WF rogues or Master Chymist builds.
This spell is next to useless against a monk.
Any creature in the area when the spell is cast must make a successful Reflex save or fall. A creature can walk within or through the area of grease at half normal speed with a DC 10 Acrobatics check. Failure means it can't move that round (and must then make a Reflex save or fall), while failure by 5 or more means it falls (see the Acrobatics skill for details). Creatures that do not move on their turn do not need to make this check and are not considered flat-footed.Also a monk does not lose most of his AC when flat footed all he loses is his Dex. bonus.
When unarmored and unencumbered, the monk adds his Wisdom bonus (if any) to his AC and his CMD. In addition, a monk gains a +1 bonus to AC and CMD at 4th level. This bonus increases by 1 for every four monk levels thereafter, up to a maximum of +5 at 20th level.
These bonuses to AC apply even against touch attacks or when the monk is flat-footed. He loses these bonuses when he is immobilized or helpless, when he wears any armor, when he carries a shield, or when he carries a medium or heavy load.
And there is his High Jump.
At 5th level, a monk adds his level to all Acrobatics checks made to jump, both for vertical jumps and horizontal jumps. In addition, he always counts as having a running start when making jump checks using Acrobatics. By spending 1 point from his ki pool as a swift action, a monk gains a +20 bonus on Acrobatics checks made to jump for 1 round.
And then there is Abundant Step.
At 12th level or higher, a monk can slip magically between spaces, as if using the spell dimension door. Using this ability is a move action that consumes 2 points from his ki pool. His caster level for this effect is equal to his monk level. He cannot take other creatures with him when he uses this ability.
Nice try but it will be at best a very minor obstacle for a monk. Anything fighting him in Melee will be much worse off.
What's the best way for an aspiring min maxer bad touch Cleric to shut these guys down?
I'm not familiar with the bad touch cleric (touch attack oriented cleric I suppose), but monks hate high AC and high CMD.
The main disadvantage a grappler has is that he can only take on a single enemy.
And freedom of movement = ): monk
i forgot about those abilities.
you have caught me on grease and the AC bonus
but i have a few final points
these abilities have huge drawbacks that frequently apply.
abundant step, it consumes a precious resource, Ki points. not many to go around. at best, usuable a handful of times per day.
high jump, hallways, jail cells and other tight spaces can counter this. plus, you can't really control your movement when you jump. at least with the huge amount of precision required to make a tumble check. it's not proper flight. try eating every attack of oppurtunity that comes at you.
also, what comes up must come down. and falling damage may apply.
tight spaces are extremely common, the only place where they are considered a rarity is the open plains.
even if the minor obstacle combination of grease plus tight spaces doesn't kill the monk, it will drastically weaken him for an easier future fight.
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I'm talking about the "monks" from Cult of The Ebon Destroyer.
I'll stand by what I said, although it doesn't apply directly to your cleric (who can, of course, help buff the big, two handed fighter...): a moderately armored, hard hitting two handed weapon wielding fighter will eat those guys in Cult of the Ebon Destroyer for an afternoon snack -- even if said fighter is (was?) only 7th level.
;)
anyone can defeat a monk. they are just that weak a class.
The monk is no weaker than any other class, like any class they have their place. What a monk does best is to counter arcane casters. No saying they are undefeatable, but they shine vs. an arcane caster. Their week point is vs. a full martial class.
The monk gets a lot of decent abilities, but most people make a lot of mistakes in playing and building them. The biggest is not having enough STR. The big problem is they are a MAD class, so if you are using a low point buy they suck. With a high point buy they are decent.
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Haste is situational, and that Ioun Stone is expensive for lv10.Haste comes in boots, and Paizo made a 4k version of that ioun stone that didn't apply to skills.
Even without both its still above +14, so while you have some points... I would hazard that your monk wasn't necessarily focused on optimal fighting.
For those keeping score at home, this level 10 monk has a +17 to hit unbuffed, or +18 when flurrying.
So yeah. There's room for upward growth.
Just for the hell of it I did a quick write up of a 13th level Dwarven Monk with standard wealth by level. He ended up with 133 HP, AC 0f 32 (25 Touch, and 30 Flatfooted), with a potential of 8 Attacks per round at +16/+16/+16/+16/+16/+11/+11/+6 doing 2d8+13 each. Now in order to get 2 of the attacks he needs to stun or stager his opponent. Considering the save vs. on the stunning blow (staggered for 1d6+1 rounds) is a fortitude save of 23 he has a good chance to pull it off. Also has the cloud step feat allowing him to Airwalk 30' as a move action. Spell Resistance of 23, and a 12pt Ki pool. His lowest save is Reflex of +12 (+15 vs. Spells and Spell Like abilities). This is without any buffs being cast by other party members.
I realize that there are a lot of characters who can defeat him, but there are a lot he can take down also. As I said vs. a full martial class like Barbarian or Fighter he will be hurting. But vs. an arcane caster he will be tough to beat. Considering he also has a Perception of +22, and a Stealth of +18 his best tactic is to ambush .
The monk is no weaker than any other class, like any class they have their place. What a monk does best is to counter arcane casters. No saying they are undefeatable, but they shine vs. an arcane caster. Their week point is vs. a full martial class.
The monk gets a lot of decent abilities, but most people make a lot of mistakes in playing and building them. The biggest is not having enough STR. The big problem is they are a MAD class, so if you are using a low point buy they suck. With a high point buy they are decent.
Shine, really? How so and until what level?
But vs. an arcane caster he will be tough to beat.
No he won't. The summoned monster has about a 50% chance to hit him, and the CMD is high enough that he may fail the acrobatics check to get by him, assuming there is only one bebilith. Now assuming the party helps out, sure he can get to the wizard, but the monk is not the main threat here.
A spider the size of an elephant, this dark blue arachnid rears up on its six hind legs to raise its barbed and razor-edged front claws.
BEBILITh CR 10
XP 9,600
CE Huge outsider (chaotic, evil, extraplanar)
Init +5; Senses darkvision 60 ft., scent; Perception +16
DEFENSE
AC 22, touch 9, flat-footed 21 (+1 Dex, +13 natural, –2 size)
hp 174 (12d10+108)
fort +17, Ref +11, Will +7
DR 10/good
OFFENSE
Speed 40 ft., climb 20 ft.
Melee bite +21(2d6+11 plus rot) and 2 claws +21 (2d4+11/19–20)
Space 15 ft.; Reach 15 ft.
Special Attacks dismantle armor, penetrating strike, web (+11
ranged, DC 23, 12 hp)
Spell-Like Abilities (CL 12th)
At will—plane shift (bebilith only)
STATISTICS
Str 32, Dex 12, Con 28, Int 11, Wis 13, Cha 13
Base Atk +12; CMB +25; CMD 36 (48 vs. trip)
Feats Cleave, Improved Critical (claws), Improved Initiative, Iron Will, Lightning Reflexes, Power Attack
Skills Acrobatics +16, Climb +32, Perception +16, Sense Motive +16, Stealth +16, Survival +16; Racial Modifiers +8 Stealth Languages Abyssal (cannot speak); telepathy 100 ft.
SPECIAL ABILITIES
Dismantle Armor (Ex) If a bebilith hits a foe with both claw attacks, it can attempt to peel away the target’s armor and shield as a free action by making a CMB check. If the bebilith is successful, the target’s armor and shield are torn from his body and dismantled, falling to the ground. Armor subjected to this attack loses half its hit points and gains the broken condition if the target fails a DC 25 Reflex save. The save DC is Strength-based.
Penetrating Strike (Su) A bebilith’s natural weapons are treated as chaotic and magical for the purposes of penetrating damage reduction. Against creatures with the demon type, its natural weapons are also treated as cold iron and good.
Rot (Su) A bebilith’s bite causes a horriblewithering and weakening of the flesh, resulting in a hideous melting and foul rotting effect. This catastrophic withering begins on the round the creature is bitten and continues for another 4 rounds thereafer, for 5 rounds of withering in all. Each round the rot persists, the target must succeed on a DC 25 Fortitude save or take 2 points of Constitution damage. If thetarget makes two consecutive saving throws in a row, the effect is cured. Heal can also halt the rot effect. The save DC is Constitution-based.
I'm talking about the "monks" from Cult of The Ebon Destroyer.
There is nothing really to those monks. But dont let the grapple with you.
We dispatched the first lot with a Persistent Confusion spell. They pretty mutch tore each other appart.
The second batch we took down in straightforward combat. We used fog cloud and a minor image to set them up, and then sent our paladin in gons blazing. As they trued to flank him they actually set themselves up for the partys rogue, who could dispatch one of them each round - it goes without saying that the paladin had a cakewalk fighting them.
The only "monk" who gave us a run was
There are other challenging encounters in Ebon Destroyers mind you that those are not at all monks, even though they might trick you into thinking that they are. Those you want to tackle with a paladin. That not withstanding you have to have spells like prayer, haste, bless, invisibility purge, and most importantly align weapon and versatile weapon.
The main disadvantage a grappler has is that he can only take on a single enemy.And freedom of movement = ): monk
Of course. But unless you have it on permanently or happen to know when the monk is coming, you might not got the chance to activate it before the monk has you and prevents you from casting it.
these abilities have huge drawbacks that frequently apply.
Not bigger than the drawbacks of other abilities, whose drawbacks often apply even more frequently:
abundant step, it consumes a precious resource, Ki points. not many to go around. at best, usuable a handful of times per day.
So? It's not that magical/supernatural abilities of other classes work a thousand times a day. It's a handful of times more often than lots of other classes can teleport across the whole battlefield as a move action.
high jump, hallways, jail cells and other tight spaces can counter this.
Those tight spaces will inconvenience others as well. And high jump + abundant step + monk speed will mean that the monk will be more mobile than any other class. They will be better at dealing with tight spaces and the like than those other classes as well.
plus, you can't really control your movement when you jump. at least with the huge amount of precision required to make a tumble check.
Monks tend to be quite decent at tumbling as well.
it's not proper flight. try eating every attack of oppurtunity that comes at you.
No problem. Might use ki to boost the AC. Between the amount of control that is available to the monk (just because it's not proper flight doesn't mean you're powerless to control anything about the jump), the great AC monks often have, the great acrobatics bonus they have, and the fact that you usually don't fight whole armies, this won't be that bad.
also, what comes up must come down. and falling damage may apply.
No. You don't get falling damage from jumping if you do a long jump on a level surface. And monks have slow fall to boot. Monks are less concerned with falling than most other classes, too.
tight spaces are extremely common, the only place where they are considered a rarity is the open plains.
Monks have the mobility to work around that. They can teleport as move actions, jump distances - and heights! - others wouldn't believe possible, they can often climb quite well as well. Again, they're better equipped to deal with terrain than most other classes.
even if the minor obstacle combination of grease plus tight spaces doesn't kill the monk, it will drastically weaken him for an easier future fight.
You forget that those obstacles will put your own party at a disadvantage, too. A patch of grease can be an advantage for a monk. He'll just jump over it (probably no need to even make a jump check!) while the warriors will probably have to walk over. If that monk has spring attack, he might jump over, hit you on your fool head, and jump back.
anyone can defeat a monk. they are just that weak a class.
That's axiomatically wrong.
No he won't. The summoned monster has about a 50% chance to hit him
What summoned monster? Unless you get the jump on the monk (which means getting enough time to summon something before combat starts in earnest), your chances of summoning something before he has you are remote.
Denying a monk a full-round attack doesn't help. They're maneuvers are still at full BAB - so they can grapple/trip/disarm the daylights out of your PC.
I sometimes wonder if the people who dismiss the monk so readily have ever seen one played competently. basically itbis best to assume the only way to make it hard for avmonk to get to something is hight. and eventually not that.
question thought where does the grease flat footed bit come from? I thought that was removed with the balance skill merger.
question thought where does the grease flat footed bit come from? I thought that was removed with the balance skill merger.
Here is the PRD link to the grase spell, if you look at it, it says that creatures that do not move do not need to make the acrobatics check and are not considered flat footed, that means that creatures that attempt the check are flat footed. Also the acrobatics section for moving at uneven surface say that are flat footed when you are doing acrobatic check for that.
I sometimes wonder if the people who dismiss the monk so readily have ever seen one played competently. basically itbis best to assume the only way to make it hard for avmonk to get to something is hight. and eventually not that.
I played a monk. It was only to level 12, but he was already a nightmare. The GM really hated that character. :)
You had to see the look on that vrock's face when I abundant stepped onto a castle tower and then jumped him (he was hovering over the middle of the castle yard, telekinetically throwing rocks at the melee characters downstairs), grappling him mid-air.
Screw falling damage, he was on the ground, unable to get away, and the party hacked him to pieces while I made him hit himself with his claws!
I sometimes wonder if the people who dismiss the monk so readily have ever seen one played competently. basically itbis best to assume the only way to make it hard for avmonk to get to something is hight. and eventually not that.I played a monk. It was only to level 12, but he was already a nightmare. The GM really hated that character. :)
You had to see the look on that vrock's face when I abundant stepped onto a castle tower and then jumped him (he was hovering over the middle of the castle yard, telekinetically throwing rocks at the melee characters downstairs), grappling him mid-air.
Screw falling damage, he was on the ground, unable to get away, and the party hacked him to pieces while I made him hit himself with his claws!
Awesome :)
I have a monk that recently made level 11 or so - and to celebrate I bought a flying ki mat (or rather a flying carpet and a ki mat that I put ontop of the carpet). And my monk has Spring Attack to use with the flying carpet for great visual spectacles and troubled enemies.