Insert debate beneath post. :)
I don't like the elf book all that much either. I got many of the same impression 3.5 loyalist did. I don't mind them thinking they are better than the other races, while self-delusion makes them think they don't look down on anyone, but there do seem to be a lot of contradictions, many of which were covered in the other thread. I may have to read it again though to make sure nobody cleared things up.
I'd like a Pathfinderized updated version.
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I'd like a Pathfinderized updated version.
Given what's been said in the past, it's probably unlikely. Still, if something like it did happen, I really hope the "attitudes towards other races" section gets changed to something less disruptive. Griefers will be griefers, but that bit on half-orcs was just easy "I'm just playing my character!" ammunition.
What's brought this up now? Is there a new one?
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What's brought this up now? Is there a new one?
The actual product page was getting so full of words that were only tangentally relevant to the book, to the point that it was gently asked to move the discussion to a new thread. Debate continued to rage after that. Just figured this could draw that debate over here so that the product thread could be freed up some. :)
I had a quick glance at the reviews. It looks like most give it high marks or low with little middleground.
If it is as described, a condescending pile of trash describing elves as the best there can ever be and they only do poorly on purpose to let the 'transient' races have a fair cop at life, I would give it low marks as well.
But that could be hyperbole on the part of the reviewers.
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Yeah, the hyberpole is pretty strong. I did have some issues with the book, but it wasn't that bad, IMO.
Really do think it's mainly the elf baggage that's built up over the decades, both in RPG Land and the fantasy literature scene. Honestly, the backlash has gotten just as bad as what kicked it off.
How much of the reputation of that old book of elven superiority from ye olde editions is tarnishing this similarly themed book?
Insert debate beneath post. :)I don't like the elf book all that much either. I got many of the same impression 3.5 loyalist did. I don't mind them thinking they are better than the other races, while self-delusion makes them think they don't look down on anyone, but there do seem to be a lot of contradictions, many of which were covered in the other thread. I may have to read it again though to make sure nobody cleared things up.
One of the central problems is they are presented as generalists (wizardry, swordsmanship, gardening, high arts) and specialists (archery, guerrilla warfare).
This is argued as if the elf is all, because the book does one thing very right, their haughtiness and assumed superiority comes across strongly.
Not exactly though. It is quite the pastiche of wood elf militance and fanatical devotion to archery and defence, and the whimsical courtier-wizard elves (with some skill in swordplay) more common to dnd. The subject comes across as a bit unbalanced in more ways than one.
Well reaver, it glorifies the mysticism of elves. They generalize but are at the same time amazing at everything they do. They are casual in their worship but still get spells. The gods form divine pacts with them since the gods have a need to prove themselves to the race of elves. They have a deadly reputation and are widely feared by everyone. Their silversmiths are the finest in the inner sea but they scoff at smelting. From their perspective, no other short-lived race will live long enough to truly master any discipline and their life-spans come and go in the blink of an eye.
but read the book. All this is only the tip of the iceberg. It 'll be a most fascinating read. That I can guarantee.
But you have to read it with a critical eye. If you love elves you won't see the contradictions so easily.
Or to use a point from the Talmud:
We do not see things as they are.
We see things as we are.
And the wise elves apparently haven't realised the level of their prejudice and assumed superiority.
Ever notice that elven stats are suspiciously similar to that of an old human? -2 con, +2 int. Sure, they get some dex as well, but they do seem naturally 'aged' in their frailty and learned years. :P
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To be entirely honest, my sticking issue with the book was alignment.
They're still classified as generally CG, and they're talked up a bit as being that, but taking a look at what Golarion elves actually do paints them as something far closer to CN. Calistria and the elven lifestyle synchronizing so well, that attitudes-towards-other-races bit*, quite a good chunk of national policy in Kyonin...
*I know I've been harping on it a lot, but I really do have issues with the standard reaction of one player race, especially a supposedly generally good-aligned one, towards another player race being murder. It's just something I really hope is avoided in future books.
To be fair though, it actually wasn't the most griefer-friendly piece of roleplaying advice for a player race I've ever seen... That award goes to the Spellscales from Races of the Dragon.
But, they all do their civic duty within the militia, they accept quasi-feudalism, a Queen and nobility. The highly complicated and shlow to learn traditions of magic persist. This is all lawful. This is from a chaotic people.
I have no problem with "contradictions" as elves (or any other race) should be at least half as varied as men. If you listed every stereotype of every human ethnicity it would be contradictory too. I see it as a book filled with character ideas. Multiple ways of playing an elf, without limiting things to a single racial stereotype.
I think the book suffers most from being the first race book, where they were still trying to find the right voice for them.
I have no problem with "contradictions" as elves (or any other race) should be at least half as varied as men. If you listed every stereotype of every human ethnicity it would be contradictory too. I see it as a book filled with character ideas. Multiple ways of playing an elf, without limiting things to a single racial stereotype.
I think the book suffers most from being the first race book, where they were still trying to find the right voice for them.
Humans are described as varied. Elves are described as all things at once. There is a difference.
I do think you may have a point with this being the first book though.
Wow I read the book and didn't get any of this....
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But, they all do their civic duty within the militia, they accept quasi-feudalism, a Queen and nobility. The highly complicated and shlow to learn traditions of magic persist. This is all lawful. This is from a chaotic people.
Still, it's a far step from the hyper-heirarchical caste-system happy situation in Menzoberranzan, where any deviation from the 'rule of Lolth' was met by divine overreaction!
Chaotic by way of more Lawful than any Lawful race in the setting? Ugh. The Golarion drow at least feel a bit more chaotic, with the 'heirarchy' of their main city split up between a dozen different houses that have each secured one 'niche' like a bunch of feuding warlords, with no centralized government.
It is interesting that the chaotic elves of Kyonin seem more orderly and to have a more centralized authority than the lawful dwarven clans of the Five Kings region.
On the other hand, their lack of any real significant presence on the map could also speak to their chaotic nature, unable to ever really pull together as a race and secure any territory other than an old forest that none of their neighbors apparently wanted enough to even bother to settle in the centuries they left it abandoned...
Then again, the dwarves, being lawful, aren't doing any better, being shoved off into a mountain range between some 'real kingdoms,' and the halflings, also, in theory, lawful, don't even have that, being rats in the walls of human cities and nations.
Wow I read the book and didn't get any of this....
Ditto.
Yes, with greater organisation, less chaos in ideas and deed and more tactics other than defensive skirmishing, the elves of Kyonin could have achieved more. They are a tiny kingdom and their weaknesses are many, which is why the idea that they are so high level and skilled at war seems so off.
Unable to really pull together, convinced ambition is folly. The new work on Tian Xia and the magnitude of this human empire speaks to the small grasp of the elves. It would actually be more exciting if they were doing more (perhaps naturalising and slowly invading NE Druma?), not so defensive and not going quietly into the night. Life siege isn't really working out. Perhaps innovation?
The lawful Dwarves really have suffered and also aren't doing so well.
The smartest way I've seen a dm get around the contradictions in elves, was to work on his world and place them as far more fey and dryad-like. A clearer picture emerged, more natural.
Also, tree shaping!
http://pooktre.com/
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I have yet to get it, but how are elves described in the new campaign setting book? In general, the new material overrides the old.
I would also like to see the non-human races practice some agriculture, as it seems that is not emphasized as part of what many races do. (I imagine elves would use magic to help grow crops, while dwarves might use a lot of hillside and mountain farming -- which can be very productive.)
For myself, I do have an elven rogue in the Pathfinder game. I try to play him with a sense of humor, sometimes bemused or confused with those around him. He does not see himself so much as superior to his fellows, but different. Perhaps that is the way to portray non-humans -- having a different perspective from humans and realizing that other perspectives may sometimes benefit them. (I suspect that like in our own world, everyone in Golarion has something to learn from each other.)
Humans are described as varied. Elves are described as all things at once. There is a difference.
I do think you may have a point with this being the first book though.
"Go not to the elves for counsel, for they will say both no and yes."
I actually get the difference between elves and humans: humans are varied, and elves start out varied. But elves live a long, long time. So they vary one way, and vary another, and another over their long lives, becoming "all things at once" from being simply varied.
So humans coming up to elves excited over what they have done will be met with an "and ...?" because you are doing something the elf did a hundred years ago. He's moved on from that. That's why elves come across as arrogant and haughty - because to them, other races are like school-children taking their first steps. Would we consider a child doomed to die at fourteen able to live a truly fulfilled life? That's why the forlorn are so called - it must really hurt to see the friends they have grow old and die before they reach anything like (from an elf's point of view) their full potential.
As for Chaotic, they perhaps focus so much on individual freedoms that they uphold the principal of freedoms while at the same time falling into habits that allow them to uphold it while not necessarily practising it. They use the simplest form of government they can find, and follow traditions that enable them to maintain their principal of freedom.
So wait, let me get this straight:
People have trouble believing that a race that lives for hundreds if not thousands of years(depending on the take) can be both generalized and specialized???
um....WHAT?
any race can do this, not just the elves. they just happen to live longer, so they can do more.
also, just because a race/group has a centralized and formalized government and overall society does not mean they are or are not chaotic as people and way of life. They can be flighty, almost ADD in that they often start a project, work on it for a few years, then get distracted/inspired to do another, often leaving the previous one unfinished. Because they are so long lived, they can and often do worship several different deities, befitting whatever path they currently tread in life.
Also, regarding how the gods feel the need to prove themselves to the Elves: BS, I would take that mechanic and use it for any race or character. it just happens to have found its origin in the Elven book, which in a way makes sense. Many of them feel secure in their own abilities, or in those of their family or neighbors, so they don't turn to a god for worship. But then some life changing event happens, something that makes the Elf cry out for divine aid, and sometimes a deity grants a boon.
Not to prove themselves to the Elf, but almost like a sneaky manipulative way to gain a convert.
So wait, let me get this straight:
People have trouble believing that a race that lives for hundreds if not thousands of years(depending on the take) can be both generalized and specialized???
um....WHAT?
any race can do this, not just the elves. they just happen to live longer, so they can do more.
Except it takes them over 100 years to learn what a human learned in 15. Elves evidently ride on the short cart.
Except it takes them over 100 years to learn what a human learned in 15. Elves evidently ride on the short cart.So wait, let me get this straight:
People have trouble believing that a race that lives for hundreds if not thousands of years(depending on the take) can be both generalized and specialized???
um....WHAT?
any race can do this, not just the elves. they just happen to live longer, so they can do more.
No, they PERFECT in a 100 years what a Human begins to the grasp the basics of in 15.
No, they PERFECT in a 100 years what a Human begins to the grasp the basics of in 15.Except it takes them over 100 years to learn what a human learned in 15. Elves evidently ride on the short cart.So wait, let me get this straight:
People have trouble believing that a race that lives for hundreds if not thousands of years(depending on the take) can be both generalized and specialized???
um....WHAT?
any race can do this, not just the elves. they just happen to live longer, so they can do more.
Funny, I think they get the same number of spells known. Same BA. Same HPs. Didn't look like the "perfected" anything over what the human did. I think the whole suggestion that humans are like kids and the elves are like adults is backwards. The elf comes up to his dying human friend who is now 80 years old. "I just figured out how to cast magic missile, isn't that great!", says the elf. "Yeah, great, I figured that out 65 years ago.", replies the human.
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Funny, I think they get the same number of spells known. Same BA. Same HPs. Didn't look like the "perfected" anything over what the human did. I think the whole suggestion that humans are like kids and the elves are like adults is backwards. The elf comes up to his dying human friend who is now 80 years old. "I just figured out how to cast magic missile, isn't that great!", says the elf. "Yeah, great, I figured that out 65 years ago.", replies the human.
"Oh yeah, that was when I was learning to forge adamantium. You never did that though, did you? I kind of got distracted by flower arranging for a decade - amazing things! Then there were all those fencing lessons that got in the way, and archery practice was always a pain ..."
Game balance means that starting elves are on a footing with starting humans. However, while your average human (not an adventurer) might get to 5th level during their life, your average elf might reach expert 5/wizard 7/cleric 3/ranger 5 during theirs. I would think a far greater proportion of elves are high-level than any other race, but they multi-class a lot, and there are not many of them (elves in general that is), and they don't interact with other races much, so they are not awesomely powerful.
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No, they PERFECT in a 100 years what a Human begins to the grasp the basics of in 15.
And yet the 15 year old human of equal level will have more skill points and an extra feat, making him either a better specialist *or* a better generalist than the 100 year old elf of identical level...
It's a flavor vs. mechanics thing, and it's been around since 2nd edition, at least, when elves were described as being better at all sorts of things than humans, and yet were unable to progress as far in any of the classes, thanks to racial level caps, or even flat-out prohibitions in some areas.
(Gosh, do I *not* miss that! One of the best 3.X developments, for me, was any class being able to be any race!)
One thing I read once about elves, and I don't remember where it was, was the concept of 'Rebirth'. Basically, every 100 to 150 years, the elf would say goodbye to all his friends and family. Then he'd go off somewhere with just a standard set of clothes, newly made, and leave his entire previous life behind. Then... over a week or month, he'd completely wipe away his old life and step out, a new name, new personality, and new outlook on life. It was the Ritual of Rebirth, and the elf was a new person, all his old memories gone, all his old skills just mere whispers in the back of his mind.
Which explained why there weren't thousands of 500 yo elves who had maximized their skills in everything and gotten bored.
I need to keep that one in mind should I ever write my own setting...
Also plays well to the idea of elves being CG in general. Suddenly deciding to go off and leave everything you know, and doing it 3 to 10 times in your life (depending on how elves age in the game) is pretty chaotic.
No, they PERFECT in a 100 years what a Human begins to the grasp the basics of in 15.And yet the 15 year old human of equal level will have more skill points and an extra feat, making him either a better specialist *or* a better generalist than the 100 year old elf of identical level...
It's a flavor vs. mechanics thing, and it's been around since 2nd edition, at least, when elves were described as being better at all sorts of things than humans, and yet were unable to progress as far in any of the classes, thanks to racial level caps, or even flat-out prohibitions in some areas.
(Gosh, do I *not* miss that! One of the best 3.X developments, for me, was any class being able to be any race!)
Yes, my take on it was that NPC elves were largely high level. A human army might consist of 1st to 3rd level warriors in the rank and file, an elf army would consist of 5th-7th level fighters. A human kingdom might have one 15th+ level wizard, an elf one would have a dozen from a smaller population.
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I have a half-formed idea of making an Elf base class to represent the average elven NPC. Something like the bard, a figher/magic-user. Thus you can represent the jack of all trades that elves are claimed to be, with those that focus on a specific thing more than others multi or prestige classing out.
The idea of it taking an elf that long to do something never made sense. I have them learn at the same rate as a human, but due to their long life spans they take breaks. Those that remained more focused can do a great deal more than the average elf, even though hardly any of them ever stay focused enough to master as much as they could if they had the same drive as a human.
The idea of it taking an elf that long to do something never made sense. I have them learn at the same rate as a human, but due to their long life spans they take breaks. Those that remained more focused can do a great deal more than the average elf, even though hardly any of them ever stay focused enough to master as much as they could if they had the same drive as a human.
I think i really like that explanation.
Funny, I think they get the same number of spells known. Same BA. Same HPs. Didn't look like the "perfected" anything over what the human did. I think the whole suggestion that humans are like kids and the elves are like adults is backwards. The elf comes up to his dying human friend who is now 80 years old. "I just figured out how to cast magic missile, isn't that great!", says the elf. "Yeah, great, I figured that out 65 years ago.", replies the human.No, they PERFECT in a 100 years what a Human begins to the grasp the basics of in 15.Except it takes them over 100 years to learn what a human learned in 15. Elves evidently ride on the short cart.So wait, let me get this straight:
People have trouble believing that a race that lives for hundreds if not thousands of years(depending on the take) can be both generalized and specialized???
um....WHAT?
any race can do this, not just the elves. they just happen to live longer, so they can do more.
Quite right Pres man. 110 to even get to maturity, 10d6 to get even the first level of any complex class. Flower arrangment must have been really awesome.
"Game balance means that starting elves are on a footing with starting humans. However, while your average human (not an adventurer) might get to 5th level during their life, your average elf might reach expert 5/wizard 7/cleric 3/ranger 5 during theirs."
Sure so they levelled nineteen times sitting at home? Please be joking.
Basically, Elves have ADHD. They start something, lose interest, go and do something else, lose interest, go start something else, lose interest, go finish a project they had started a few months ago, then come back to the first thing and go "Whoa, that looks cool." and then repeat the whole damn process again.
Then again they are a race with a lifespan of centuries. Ironicly, keeping occupied and mentally healthy is incredibly more difficult for an Elf than it would be for a Human, and taking a month off from a project to spend time with your family isn't such a huge undertaking when you will live for that long, and your clients likely have the same outlook.
All stuff like this is why when I wrote my setting I rewrote elves completely. I don't need to make excuses that make people feel a little sick when they read them to explain what skills elves have at what age.
If we're talking PC type advancement, that is vastly different than learning and perfecting a craft/skill/area of knowledge.
For example, I consider my self an expert in Greek Mythology and Comicbook lore. that doesn't exactly lead to my having levels in "Wizard" or "Bard" now does it??
As far as them learning faster, of course they do. They get a +2 to Int, meaning even if you start with a base of 10, all Elves begin with a 12. So yea, they learn faster if they apply themselves. However, they usually don't at least not in the same manner as other races.
Now now, we have no idea what kind of CR elven weeds have. :)
Sure so they levelled nineteen times sitting at home? Please be joking.
Lol. Now i'm getting the image of cr 4 weeds which need to be defeated every now and then. Elf draws sword and shouts out:"i took levels in knight for this. I challenge you to vegetation combat."
So wait, let me get this straight:
People have trouble believing that a race that lives for hundreds if not thousands of years(depending on the take) can be both generalized and specialized???
um....WHAT?
any race can do this, not just the elves. they just happen to live longer, so they can do more.
also, just because a race/group has a centralized and formalized government and overall society does not mean they are or are not chaotic as people and way of life. They can be flighty, almost ADD in that they often start a project, work on it for a few years, then get distracted/inspired to do another, often leaving the previous one unfinished. Because they are so long lived, they can and often do worship several different deities, befitting whatever path they currently tread in life.
Also, regarding how the gods feel the need to prove themselves to the Elves: BS, I would take that mechanic and use it for any race or character. it just happens to have found its origin in the Elven book, which in a way makes sense. Many of them feel secure in their own abilities, or in those of their family or neighbors, so they don't turn to a god for worship. But then some life changing event happens, something that makes the Elf cry out for divine aid, and sometimes a deity grants a boon.
Not to prove themselves to the Elf, but almost like a sneaky manipulative way to gain a convert.
What about members of other races which cry out for divine aid. Do they get it? Trying to pull the gods closer to take a more active role in the prime material? Doubtful given how the gazeteer describes how the gods distance themselves from the prime material. As for the elves not necessarily turning to worship, there is a big chunk in the book about religion. They do worship their own gods one way or another.
I demand an elven village random encounter chart.
you want to make it or should this be a collective effort...:)
To give a brief look at what I did:
First, elves live maybe 150-200 years at most but their appearance ages more slowly than humans, giving the impression of timelessness.
Second, a large part of their original culture was based on ancestor worship and calling the spirits of ancient elves to guide their civilisation. This made them stagnant beyond measure.
Elven religion and culture was characterised by such phrases as:
"Only what is old and proven has value. New creation is transient and will vanish in a generation."
"The past holds all that can be known. It is set in stone forever. Looking into the future grants only ephemeral vagaries."
Oh, and this attitude both got their empire destroyed and prevented recovery for a thousand years because they refused to acknowledge a need to change.
Those elves that survived better were those that realised the 'transient' races had much to offer and adopted much of human culture.