I'm hard pressed to think of a single GM I've ever gamed with who would have objected to my playing a younger than normal character.
And in fact I did so once, playing a teenage elf warlock I modeled after Goku from the Saiyuki manga/anime. Had a blast.
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I guarantee there have been numerous chimney sweep/street urchin rogues rolled up for the sole purpose of allowing players to squeak bits of Dickens at the table.
Heck, one street urchin NPC in our Korvosa game started rocking class levels as soon as one of the PCs took him under his wing via Leadership. No complaints there.
The vision of the elves in Elves of Golarion needs to be clearer and make more sense. With the favoured class being wizard, how are they all presented as skilled bowmen? Wizards are terrible archers, its the BAB that gets them. Wizards are also pushed into a different feat tree than the archer-ranger.
On child players, of course it can be allowed, but those street urchins by the rules don't have level 1 yet in rogue (minimum as humans, 17 years). I'd put them as 0 level with a trait in climb and sleight of hand. When older, probably first feat into run. No back-stab if not 17, no full 8 skill points, not full rogue hp for kids.
Not just that, it goes on about the ability of all elves to hit small targets at reasonable range with ease. This is not what an elven wizard can do easily, consistently or on the fly.
Humans can also put proficiency in longbow easily, and dwarven fighters start with longbow proficiency.
But it isn't +5 on the numbers for the purpose of making the roll to hit a small target at some distance, it is +1-3 starting or so on the numbers (depending on class, dex, etc). The human commoner also has a martial proficiency, according to beta.
The commoner is proficient with one simple weapon. He is not proficient with any other weapons, nor is he proficient with any type of armor or shield.
Dwarves don't really innovate.
innovation is a human thing. Humans come up with new ideas to adapt to changing circumstances.
What Dwarves do is Not Forget and Do Things Very Well.
The whole Engineering/Architecture mastery is simply an expression of their ties to stone and steel...the +2 bonus. They are naturally better at working with such things. However, their culture is lawful, traditional, and stifling. A Dwarf lives to pay respect for his ancestors, not to surpass them or create something new.
Unlike humans, who innovate,keep the knowledge selfishly and pass it on only to blood or a chosen few, and regularly lose knowledge, Dwarves tend to have a deep, multi-generational pool of skill that is hard to eliminate, and insures that secrets get passed around and down. If they see something that works, they co-opt it, and can likely do it even better then a 'human' inventor because of their racial bonus.
So Dwarves aren't particularly smart. They are disciplined and 'naturals' at using earth and metal. Like elves, they also have a LONG time to learn all the tricks of the trade, which would give them a deeper well of knowledge then most humans.
But innovation? Nah. You want radical new stuff, you look to humanity, who've got no respect for the past, they want to beat it, not live up to it.
==Aelryinth
Beautiful example of why I hate a lot of the sci-fi/fantasy fandom. Respect for tradition doesn't mean inability or unwillingness to explore new ideas. If golarian dwarves can't or won't try anything that's not traditional how did they make the transition to living near the surface, surface combat, interacting with surface races?
There's no reason to make humans "the innovation race", if there was one the flavor text clearly shows it would be the gnomes anyway, and there's nothing in the flavor text saying dwarves aren't capable of trying new ideas.
Someone here mentioned cultural maturity and that is the key in understanding elves.
In the middle ages, a person was an adult, able to own property, pay taxes, get married, serve in the military, etc as soon as they finished their apprenticeship. Which was about 14-16 years old.
Modernly, we limit such responsibilities to 18 minimum, and for college kids its more like 25. Modern man just doesnt mature emotionally and socially as fast as we did back then.
Likewise with the elves; he may be physically equivalent to an adult, but emotionally and mentally, he's still a "teen" or "adultescent" that is becoming common in Europe and America, where they live with their parents until almost 30, instead of getting out and starting their own life before then.
The same way we in modern civilized countries wouldnt put a 16 year old to work in factories, the military, or other lines of work, in spite of his being physically mature enough for the job, because he isnt "grown-up" enough for it, like-wise the elves see their young as "children" until the age of maturity-110 at the minimum.
I don't think it is true that we can't mature as fast. We just don't have too. I have met people who have had to "grow up fast". If an elf was raised by humans for whatever reason I think they could learn as fast. The game just assumes you are raised by your own race.
Dwarves don't really innovate.
innovation is a human thing. Humans come up with new ideas to adapt to changing circumstances.
What Dwarves do is Not Forget and Do Things Very Well.
The whole Engineering/Architecture mastery is simply an expression of their ties to stone and steel...the +2 bonus. They are naturally better at working with such things. However, their culture is lawful, traditional, and stifling. A Dwarf lives to pay respect for his ancestors, not to surpass them or create something new.
Unlike humans, who innovate,keep the knowledge selfishly and pass it on only to blood or a chosen few, and regularly lose knowledge, Dwarves tend to have a deep, multi-generational pool of skill that is hard to eliminate, and insures that secrets get passed around and down. If they see something that works, they co-opt it, and can likely do it even better then a 'human' inventor because of their racial bonus.
So Dwarves aren't particularly smart. They are disciplined and 'naturals' at using earth and metal. Like elves, they also have a LONG time to learn all the tricks of the trade, which would give them a deeper well of knowledge then most humans.
But innovation? Nah. You want radical new stuff, you look to humanity, who've got no respect for the past, they want to beat it, not live up to it.
==Aelryinth
Beautiful example of why I hate a lot of the sci-fi/fantasy fandom. Respect for tradition doesn't mean inability or unwillingness to explore new ideas. If golarian dwarves can't or won't try anything that's not traditional how did they make the transition to living near the surface, surface combat, interacting with surface races?
There's no reason to make humans "the innovation race", if there was one the flavor text clearly shows it would be the gnomes anyway, and there's nothing in the flavor text saying dwarves aren't capable of trying new ideas.
Well I agree a fair bit there Hippygriff. The dwarves have indeed changed and adapted. The problem with fandom is not that races are assumed to have specific characters, and notes are made on potential, areas of expertise, the problem is when fandom turns to worship and this effects future fantasy products. So the fandom starts to say, such and such race are the best at something, and not just this, they have mastered that skill and ability over there too (and this presented as if it applies to all). Oh and their weaknesses don't really exist, they only have multiple strengths and brilliance, and are so good they don't have to adapt and change: they are geniuses and great warriors and great at this and that. Yeah, this was why I didn't like the Elves of Golarion book, but do like that at the basics of dnd, of classes and choices, you cannot have it all.
It's a problem when one aspect of a race is blown out of proportion to make them less than they are and it goes unchallenged. I say it's a problem when some aspect of intelligent life as we know it, like the ability to innovate, is applied to a race making them the "X" race. Like the humans are the innovation race example above.
I just don't like races being turned into one note wonders…
"Caricatures". Yes, it reminds me of a discussion I was having with a player who wanted to play a four-armed Sahuaghin. He was quite into playing non-humans, I expressed reservations with this, since demi-humans always are presented as only having some of the facets of human experience and human cultures (bit-part humans). I suggested a well-fleshed out human character, he wanted a monster. I wanted him to play a character (to role-play) with a story, not just a stat-block (to roll-play). Sahuaghins are presented as vicious and cunning psychopaths, he wanted those limbs, he wanted extra benefits, but there wasn't much in the concept save going along with the ideas on Sahuaghins. A caricature indeed.
On elves and golarion, the newly proposed int bonus and the presentation that they are wise, really seems at odds with a lot of what I read. Wisdom and greater understanding seems to me to be the opposite of pride and ethnic supremacy. High intelligence cannot be claimed when philosophies of inaction are followed, maturity and learning is slow, change is stunted and contact with what is outside the society, is looked down upon (high int especially doesn't work for me with that last point).
What bugs me is that elves are still described as chaotic when almost everything they do is orderly. And they still regard younger races as 'too rushed'. This screams "lawful good" to me.
They are very lawful in many aspects: feudal government not threatened from within, wizard-traditions, presence of nobility accepted, gerontocracy and aged wizard elites highly influential (if you think an old conservative politician is biased and prejudiced to "traditional" notions, add two-hundred years).
http://pathfinder.wikia.com/wiki/Mercenary_League
And the blackjackets don't walk over the generalist light elven militia and take part of Kyonin for booty? Sigh.
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http://pathfinder.wikia.com/wiki/Mercenary_League
And the blackjackets don't walk over the generalist light elven militia and take part of Kyonin for booty? Sigh.
I guess no.
1) They are a standing army. A standing army costs a lot of recources, so they are far fewer in number then the elven militia. Since we don't even know how good their training is ruleswise (and you seem to be determined to have other nations crush Kyonin using Pathfinder or some wargame rules, it is hard to compare the individual soldiers. Loyalty might not be the deciding factor here, since the elves would be defending their home country which is quite a good motivation.2) The Elves would be fighting on home turf. That is very helpful, especially in a dense forest.
3) Druma values trade and wealth. On the long run Druma runs a better profit by establishing trade reltaions then by crushing Kyonin as a nation.
3) Is a good point, especially if they are better at the mercantile game. Of course the elven habit of shooting tresspassers could start a war, whether war is in either sides best interest or not.
2) Forests conceal shots. Visibility is low, even if you know the law of the land, the trees are still there to confound shots. In forests, and Kyonin is said to be especially dense and natural you can't get the full range of a longbow, which is an open battlefield weapon and not best in close quarters. Also don't forget elves don't even share their maps internally, they don't even know where all their settlements are or troop movements. Low centralisation means a low capacity for military organisation.
1) Incorrect! The elves have a low population, low birth rates, their weak economy is described on page 21, and that can have serious consequences in military matters: the availability of armour, weapons, even arrows when "The elven population is small, and the percentage of it interested in working and trading their wares to others smaller still" (21). The militia is active and large, and draws from many different vocations, which will drive military skill down compared to specialists. Druma by contrast, is a flourishing state, larger, with bigger cities, all cities actually occupied and run unlike in Kyonin, more cash a more secure economy. It says the blackjackets are very skilled and with the best equipment available--to protect the flow of commerce of course. Longbows & light armour to medium armour with low availability (due to the poor elven work ethic), doesn't always trump the best of what is going equipment wise on the mercenary circuit. You could perhaps play mount and blade the feudal mil sim to get what I am meaning on point 2 and 1.
Druma reminds me a lot of Sembia, but with some almost Indian caste ideas on purity, and a serious army instead of just mercenaries.
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3) I guess unwanted tresspassing is not the best way to start mercantile relationships, then.
2) I doubt the elves, as good as they may or may not be with their bows would just wait for the enemy to get int firing range. Settin traps, teasing and misleading enemy troups, drawing troups deep enough into the forest to keep them there at night, etc. A forest is very good terrain for the defender, believe it or not. And if even the elves don't know where all their settlements are, the should be hard to find and thus hard to attack without falling prey to traps and guerillia fighting militia.
1) Still, due to the terrain and har to find enemy settlements, such a war would take very long and drain the attackers recources fast.
I did play mount and blade. As fun as it is, it does a very poor job simulating medieval/pseudomedieval battles. Reading books about historic warfare and visiting history classes is much more enlightening.
P.S. Please forgive me if my spelling or grammar are off or if I sound more rude then I intend. I worked nightshift and sit at a desk at my university now. Foreign languages don't come easy if you are deprived of sleep.
3) It wasn't tresspassing, the elves had left a long, long time ago (I can still remember). Also theft is also beneficial to attaining profit.
2 and 1) It mentions guerrilla tactics, and there are some nasty plants (but fighters with hatchets can kill plants) and setting traps is a complex skill, and setting traps well takes specialisation, time, effort, in sum, work. Ranger is not a favoured class, rangers are vulnerable to many crossbow bolts. The capital is also on the map, as is greengold. Their numbers are few and they lack the pop to colonise their old ruins and make them functioning cities again.
P.S All good.
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3) Yes, Theft is beneficial to attaining profit, but trade is better in the long term. So much better that Druma might even submit to the elves demands regarding Kyonin if they knew they could take the forest by force.
2 and 1) While the fighjters kill the plants they basically stand still and are perfect targets for hit & run attacks.
Yes, traps take time and efford, but I don't think the book rules out elves putting some work into defense if their home ist threatened. Also, they don't need overly complicated traps. Deadfalls, covered trenches and similar primitive traps do work wonders for dividing troops and bringing the to a stop as better targets for hit and run attacks. You don't need a shock full of rangers to build those traps, just one per workgroup who has a basic understanding of trapbuilding and a couple of guys who do what he tells them (and nor, being chaotic does't mean being completely unable or unwilling to ever follow instructions). I don't think that it is covered by the rules, but an army or even a large group hinders itself regarding to spotting traps and hearing hidden enemies.
The capital and greengold are on the map...great. Even assuming the maps available on Golarion are anyway as detailed as the maps avilable in a FLGS on Earth, that still leaves a lot of room where exactly those cities are. What the map don't show are the ways throught the Forest an army can take to reach the cities, they will have to look for those.
Good points. Druma and Kyonin have advantages working for them respectively. It almost comes down to the ye old question of forest skirmishers vs skilled military soldiers. It could go either way since the forest would be where the elves are strongest and most deadly. However, it would be unwise to rule out the blackjackets. While they are an organisation of different classes, each is described as being the most skilled and deadly of their discipline in Druma. It wouldn't be so easy for them to march into Kyonin and take it over. However, given the sheer number of levels of the average blackjacket, it would be laughable to say they are turned away with ease and elves suffer little to no casualties doing so.
If the elves are so good, why are they continually under pressure from Razmiran raiders?
Their position is very weak, diplomatically they are strained to near war against Druma and Molthune, because they attack the latters vessels. Andoran is what keeps Kyonin afloat. They are in quite the rough spot, and haven't taken land in a long time.
Nearby politics are very interesting. If Molthune were to beat Nirmathas, it would grow into an even more threatening power. If Nirmathas were to beat Molthune, its Robin Hood like archers could challenge the elves in archery and really possibly win, tempered by recent battles and victories. If Razmiran grows and isn't beaten by its other enemies, Kyonin will lose ground to their committed assault.
A precipice indeed, and almost surrounded too.
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I agree, the Elves are in a precarious position. I just didn't agree with you being sure the blackjacks would walk over the elven defenders.
As for the Razmirian Raiders: They are not an army, they probably don't threaten Kyonins very existence. That means the elves won't be as motivated to rile up their whole militia as they would be against the blackjacks. Also, the forest and guerillia trick works less good against small bands of raiders then against larger units or an entire army.
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Lol. Now i'm getting the image of cr 4 weeds which need to be defeated every now and then. Elf draws sword and shouts out:"i took levels in knight for this. I challenge you to vegetation combat."Now now, we have no idea what kind of CR elven weeds have. :)
Sure so they levelled nineteen times sitting at home? Please be joking.
I did know a master that say that in the D&D world no one is allowed outside the house until he get to 5th level.
His average plant has around 10 HD.If you look some of the monster plants and animals he has some reason for his ruling ;)
re: Dwarves: The Climb to Sky was a massive disruption of the Dwarven culture that literally changed their entire race. WHereas humans migrate back and forth all the time, with regularity. Getting a DWarf to abandon his roots is extremely difficult...even after losing some of their mighty fortresses, the Dwarves still cling to the remainder, instead of trying different things.
The very example they give of the dwarven laborer says he works to honor his ancestors, not to try out new things. This means that he aims to emulate the skills of his ancestors, and preserve their knowledge. It doesn't mean they make a cultural habit of trying new things. Like the elves, they trust in what worked for their fathers.
However, they aren't stupid...they're just slow to change. If they see something a human tries that works, they'll doubtless co-opt it after a few generations, and then likely improve on it and make it their own. Unlike humans, they largely won't ever forget it, so humans lose the knowledge, the dwarves keep it, and so dwarven craft supremacy continues on the basis of better education over the long run. However, humans who get together and actually share crafting knowledge can advance at a rate that is absolutely breathtaking compared to Dwarves (or Elves), because they don't care about the history, they care about what works and how to make it better.
Also note that the Gnome is about trying out new experiences...not in doing slow, patient, boring research and tedium. Innovation isn't their thing, because innovation takes discipline and patience, as much or more then creativity. Gnomes in PF are made to be artists, and art doesn't drive science, it makes use of it.
Probably the greatest thing helping humans innovate is war and the rapid generations. Humans don't have time for hundred year apprenticeships learning how to make adamantine swords starting with a rock they found. They have to get the sword made, each person does their part, and they specialize, and keep specializing until the job is broken up enough for one man to learn it and do it, and then it all comes together. War, the desire to defeat one's enemies, are a primary driver in this, and man has never had a problem with going to war.
==Aelryinth
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Someone here mentioned cultural maturity and that is the key in understanding elves.
In the middle ages, a person was an adult, able to own property, pay taxes, get married, serve in the military, etc as soon as they finished their apprenticeship. Which was about 14-16 years old.
Modernly, we limit such responsibilities to 18 minimum, and for college kids its more like 25. Modern man just doesnt mature emotionally and socially as fast as we did back then.
Likewise with the elves; he may be physically equivalent to an adult, but emotionally and mentally, he's still a "teen" or "adultescent" that is becoming common in Europe and America, where they live with their parents until almost 30, instead of getting out and starting their own life before then.
The same way we in modern civilized countries wouldnt put a 16 year old to work in factories, the military, or other lines of work, in spite of his being physically mature enough for the job, because he isnt "grown-up" enough for it, like-wise the elves see their young as "children" until the age of maturity-110 at the minimum.
Note that in the middle ages, while you were "able to own property, pay taxes, get married, serve in the military, etc as soon as they finished their apprenticeship. Which was about 14-16 years old." often you were obliged to follow your elders dictates till a way higher age.
Unless all your family elders were dead you had no right to own or dispose of property without their authorization, you were to marry a men or woman chosen by your elders and so on.
You were "allowed" to die fighting in a war bur rarely you had the right to choose what to do until you were well above 30 years old unless you were willing to break all ties with your family.
Patriarchal society it is not only about male dominance in the family, but about older male dominance.
Seeing how elf "adulthood" (110 years) is well above half of the middle age bracket, while for the other races it is always under the half of the middle age bracket, it is probably more of a cultural thing than a biological thing.
If we were using the other races adulthood vs. middle ages values, elves adulthood should start at about 75-80 years of age.
The whole problem of the argument about elves activity was born with the the old D&D red box and the 1rst edition of AD&D.
If you have a long lived race and you allow the NPC in that race to accrue levels with time you get extremely powerful NPC in one race only.
If you don't do that there is a problem with game consistency.
this problem was never resolved in a acceptable way.
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http://pathfinder.wikia.com/wiki/Mercenary_League
And the blackjackets don't walk over the generalist light elven militia and take part of Kyonin for booty? Sigh.
Duma: less than 40.000 people in all the cities.
Kyonin: more than 66.000 in the two cities.Maybe numbers mean something?
1) Incorrect! The elves have a low population, low birth rates, their weak economy is described on page 21, and that can have serious consequences in military matters: the availability of armour, weapons, even arrows when "The elven population is small, and the percentage of it interested in working and trading their wares to others smaller still" (21). The militia is active and large, and draws from many different vocations, which will drive military skill down compared to specialists. Druma by contrast, is a flourishing state, larger, with bigger cities, all cities actually occupied and run unlike in Kyonin, more cash a more secure economy. It says the blackjackets are very skilled and with the best equipment available--to protect the flow of commerce of course. Longbows & light armour to medium armour with low availability (due to the poor elven work ethic), doesn't always trump the best of what is going equipment wise on the mercenary circuit. You could perhaps play mount and blade the feudal mil sim to get what I am meaning on point 2 and 1.Druma reminds me a lot of Sembia, but with some almost Indian caste ideas on purity, and a serious army instead of just mercenaries.
Maybe you should check your data before making a tirade like this one.
Standing army with focused skills is not necessarily better than a well trained militia that fight as skirmishers.
You speak of the difficulty to use a bow in the wood, but forget the difficulty to use any regular medieval-like army formations in a forest.
Cavalry? don't make me laugh.
Shield walls? don't work
Close formation of pikemen? broken by the forest
What work in a forest? skirmishers, and your blackjacked seem to be the opposite, regular heavy formations
Elves have a higher population than Duma, so again no advantage there.
Availability of weapon, armour and so on. Again a strawman argument. What the elves would use most are arrows, and most elves know enough to make them. Skirmishers don't want and don't need heavy armour.
Fight in a open field and your blackjacks will win most of the time, enter in the elves forest and almost certainly the losses for them will pile up way faster for them than for the elves.
I don't get all your hate for the elves. They really grates so much to your nerves?
Don't forget about one of the Elves biggest strategic assets, the Elf gates. The ability to deploy a fairly sizable force well into enemy territory is nothing to laugh at.
My guess is, and this is only a theory, is that a Elf/Duma or Razmiran war would be similar to the Maori wars of the Nineteenth century.
The Elves would build fortifications along the invaders line of advance or near targets within enemy territory. They would hold the fort long enough to draw a sizable number of enemy troops to the area, fending off any weak attacks, but abandoning the fort when large numbers of enemy arrive or if an attack looks like it might succeed. Leaving the enemy having expended blood and treasure to take possession of a fortification of no particular value to the Elves.
While the enemy is dealing with that, raiding parties would be moving behind enemy lines attacking targets of opportunity, burning crops, destroying infrastructure, etc...and with the gates these attacks could come literally anywhere within the enemy's country.
Of course, the situations aren't an exact match. The Elves have strategic assets the Maori could have only dreamed of, and at least a few allies. But I think that at least in the early stages of a war this could be a possible scenario.
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It should also be noted that Razmiran is far more dependant on infiltration and undermining society rather than straight military strength, and their usual tactics they use in the River Kingdoms, Nirmathas, and Ustalav probably won't fly in Kyonin(guess the damn xenophobia has one benefit at least).
Also not really seeing CG Nirmathas having any reason to even want to go to war with Kyonin. They're very much focused on holding onto what's theirs, not adding to it.
Shield walls don't work against ranged? The elves who don't like to work can quickly build fortifications?
Pardon?
Heavy foot covering themselves and many medium crossbowmen is a good counter to dispersed skirmishers. This is just one counter to foot archers who have some cover and high mobility.
It should also be noted that Razmiran is far more dependant on infiltration and undermining society rather than straight military strength, and their usual tactics they use in the River Kingdoms, Nirmathas, and Ustalav probably won't fly in Kyonin(guess the damn xenophobia has one benefit at least).
The raiding is, according to the book, a present problem that has been unresolved. Elves can have pretty good senses, but crafty rogues can trick or sneak right up to elven sentries. Specialists against generalists again.
While the enemy is dealing with that, raiding parties would be moving behind enemy lines attacking targets of opportunity, burning crops, destroying infrastructure, etc...and with the gates these attacks could come literally anywhere within the enemy's country.
The book presents elves as loathe to leave their defensive position. This is one of my main problems with the elves, they don't risk and go for the big wins, or to crush their enemies where it hurts.
Pop of Detmer, Highhelm, Kerse and Macridi comes to 69,617 from my sources Diego. Humans also reproduce faster and foreign mercenaries suppliment Druma's armies. What mercenaries do the elves typically use? Here is a problem of relying on a militia of a somewhat low pop country.
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Shield walls don't work against ranged? The elves who don't like to work can quickly build fortifications?
Pardon?
Heavy foot covering themselves and many medium crossbowmen is a good counter to dispersed skirmishers. This is just one counter to foot archers who have some cover and high mobility.
It should also be noted that Razmiran is far more dependant on infiltration and undermining society rather than straight military strength, and their usual tactics they use in the River Kingdoms, Nirmathas, and Ustalav probably won't fly in Kyonin(guess the damn xenophobia has one benefit at least).
The raiding is, according to the book, a present problem that has been unresolved. Elves can have pretty good senses, but crafty rogues can trick or sneak right up to elven sentries. Specialists against generalists again.
While the enemy is dealing with that, raiding parties would be moving behind enemy lines attacking targets of opportunity, burning crops, destroying infrastructure, etc...and with the gates these attacks could come literally anywhere within the enemy's country.
The book presents elves as loathe to leave their defensive position. This is one of my main problems with the elves, they don't risk and go for the big wins, or to crush their enemies where it hurts.
Pop of Detmer, Highhelm, Kerse and Macridi comes to 69,617 from my sources Diego. Humans also reproduce faster and foreign mercenaries suppliment Druma's armies. What mercenaries do the elves typically use? Here is a problem of relying on a militia of a somewhat low pop country.
Fortifications =/= simple traps and trenches
Elves may not like to work but I'm quite sure they will work to defend their home. Heck, I don't like doing nightshifts at a gas station, but I do because otherwise I couldn't continue my study. The book says nothing about them being unable to do any work regardless of circumstances.A Shield Wall is a military formation.
Shield walls work angainst ranged combatants, but they don't work well in dense forests, because you probably won't have enough room to set up the formation and because, if the enemy ranged combatants use the forest to their advantage, you won't know against what direction you need to set it up - and that is what Diego Rossi wrote about.
Why should the elves leave their defensive position? A dense forest is about the best defensive position you can get, porvided food isn't an issue. And they don't seem to be interested in razing neighboring countries and go for the "big wins" (which most wars didn't and don't provide once you take the general population into account and start to care if they live or die in the aftermath of the war due to starvation and famine)
He said forts, this isn't how the elves fight. Maori warfare was actually rather close to European feudal warfare.
Multiple castle walls, towers, around keeps make a better static form of defence. It protects you, and you can also hold your position. You don't have to fight and withdraw if not overwhelmed and can concentrate fire upon the enemy. Enemy commanders can also see what they are engaging, and it is not the confusing situation of trying to coordinate an attack with low visibility.
The dense forest also inhibits elven archery too. Take a medium range shot and the armoured opponents get ac and cover bonuses. It seems a bit contrary to their supposed skill, but if they want to not be inhibited with penalties to their shots, they have to get closer, and thus also in range of enemy shots being returned.
If one tries to ambush a lot of crossbowmen say in the rear, from close range because dense forests prevent long range shots, then the enemy shooters can also return fire or rush to try and engage the bowmen who have their bows, not swords out.
Dense forests aren't that great, not great in any way, they have only some merits.
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He said forts, this isn't how the elves fight. Maori warfare was actually rather close to European feudal warfare.
Multiple castle walls, towers, around keeps make a better static form of defence. It protects you, and you can also hold your position. You don't have to fight and withdraw if not overwhelmed and can concentrate fire upon the enemy. Enemy commanders can also see what they are engaging, and it is not the confusing situation of trying to coordinate an attack with low visibility.
The dense forest also inhibits elven archery too. Take a medium range shot and the armoured opponents get ac and cover bonuses. It seems a bit contrary to their supposed skill, but if they want to not be inhibited with penalties to their shots, they have to get closer, and thus also in range of enemy shots being returned.
If one tries to ambush a lot of crossbowmen say in the rear, from close range because dense forests prevent long range shots, then the enemy shooters can also return fire or rush to try and engage the bowmen who have their bows, not swords out.
Dense forests aren't that great, not great in any way, they have only some merits.
Sorry, I pretty much missed firests post and assumed you were answering my earlier post about simple traps - misunderstanding.
P.S. If You'd use the quote function if you reply to someones specific post, it would be much easier to follow that argument.A forest the size of a nation means that the enmy doesn't know where you are. That alone is one of the best defenses possible.
If you don't completely ignor tactics, you don't set up a large unit of Bowmen to open middle ranged fire at a bunch of crossbowmen:
You use the already pretty confusing terrain for your advantage. You set up simple traps and use baits (sometime a seemingly usable pass is already a bait) to divide the enemy troups and stop them where you want them to be, you attack from cover, possibly cover within the trees, no more then a few shots that take out some of the enemies, then you retreat with stealth, possibly before a confused enemy even got a single shot in the right direction.
Since the enemy will need his time to get to your settlements, this allows you to hurt his army without taking much damage yourself.
An enemy invading a foreign country doesn't only need troups, he needs to provide for those troops. Bringing food and water to troops besting a dense forest is a logistical nightmare, especially if you target his provision lines (which are even slower and easier targets then the troops are).
Comparing the strength of two armies (and none of the numbers or arguments you used convinced me that there is nearly enough data to do even that) does almost nothing to predict the outcome of the invasion of an enemy country. If you don't keep terrain, logistics and even wheather in mind, your facing an epic desaster, even if you have 10 hardened soldiers for every militiaman you want to fight.
That goes for any two parties, being elf has nothing to do with that (try attacking an underground dwarven fortress throu an unknown tunnle system...)
Troops covering each-other don't just wander off. Simple traps can be easily identified by half-decent foresters, rogues, scouts.
And don't forget, once you shoot for the surprise round, you are at -20 to stealth. Attacks and attention will be coming back. You can flee, and give ground, troops march on. Keep attacking, fleeing, attacking, withdrawing and its time to make fort saves against fatigue. Elves have a low con and because of what they are doing, they are burning more energy in a higher level of exertion compared to a slow moving defensive shooting army.
You are talking about attrition, but to maximise the attrition, it comes down to serious engagements. Foliage doesn't only help the elves. An average bowmen can get their damage really slowed down by decent armour, and especially by the blackjackets and their highest quality equipment.
Logistics, if the elves can live in the forest, the humans can also hunt. If you humans eat all the food, elves are going to start starving if they are away from their gardens. The logistical nightmare can be reversed. Rampaging through villages can also beef up stocks and supplies. Invading troops are going to be carrying some supplies of their own determined by organisational doctrine. Attacking logistics is an obvious thing to do, that could easily be turned into a counter-ambush (its wagons full of blackjackets with swords, tower shields and light armour, damn). Their strategies aren't undefeatable.
And, elves don't have military discipline, their militia is made up from all sections of their society, infiltration by disguised rogues is really possible. Not every elf knows every other elf, they move around a lot. There is a great vulnerability to trickery here. Something a tightly bound city militia of people drilled together and from one place, is less vulnerable to.
3.5 Loyalist, I notice you keep mentioning elves have wizard for their favored class. Now I know you name is 3.5 Loyalist so you might not be aware that in pathfinder there are no 'set' favored racial classes. This is all I am saying now back to your regularly scheduled internet brawl.
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Really not getting this whole notion that the Elves of Golarion don't have much in military strength keep in mind these are the ones that were able to face Treerazer (A CR 25 Nascesant Daemon lord) and his army of Daemons and although were unable to destroy him were able to essentially imprison him in Tanglebriar.
Really not getting this whole notion that the Elves of Golarion don't have much in military strength keep in mind these are the ones that were able to face Treerazer (A CR 25 Nascesant Daemon lord) and his army of Daemons and although were unable to destroy him were able to essentially imprison him in Tanglebriar.
They drove him and his army back. Didn't banish him back to wherever he came from. Indeed a very impressive partial victory. Elves of that generation would indeed be very skilled and deadly. Not so sure about the modern day elves though.
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Troops covering each-other don't just wander off. Simple traps can be easily identified by half-decent foresters, rogues, scouts.
And don't forget, once you shoot for the surprise round, you are at -20 to stealth. Attacks and attention will be coming back. You can flee, and give ground, troops march on. Keep attacking, fleeing, attacking, withdrawing and its time to make fort saves against fatigue. Elves have a low con and because of what they are doing, they are burning more energy in a higher level of exertion compared to a slow moving defensive shooting army.
You are talking about attrition, but to maximise the attrition, it comes down to serious engagements. Foliage doesn't only help the elves. An average bowmen can get their damage really slowed down by decent armour, and especially by the blackjackets and their highest quality equipment.
Logistics, if the elves can live in the forest, the humans can also hunt. If you humans eat all the food, elves are going to start starving if they are away from their gardens. The logistical nightmare can be reversed. Rampaging through villages can also beef up stocks and supplies. Invading troops are going to be carrying some supplies of their own determined by organisational doctrine. Attacking logistics is an obvious thing to do, that could easily be turned into a counter-ambush (its wagons full of blackjackets with swords, tower shields and light armour, damn). Their strategies aren't undefeatable.
And, elves don't have military discipline, their militia is made up from all sections of their society, infiltration by disguised rogues is really possible. Not every elf knows every other elf, they move around a lot. There is a great vulnerability to trickery here. Something a tightly bound city militia of people drilled together and from one place, is less vulnerable to.
Dividing troops by traps was used throughout the history of warfare, especially by guerillia troops. If you're looking for examples in history, try reading about the British/Roman conflict, the German/Roman Conflict, or most British/French wars. Troops should cover each other, but large troops cannot travel through forest in formation. Most of the time the avant-garde doesn't know what the rearguard is doing.
If the human hunt, the will certainly not do it in large groups and will make easy targets for the elves who know the forest better, so they will have a hard time feeding the troops with game.
If an outsider starts an attack, the elves will probably retreat from the villages in the outer layer of the wood and probably won't leave much food behind. Since the invading force does't even know where the villages are, relying on them for food is a very bad idea.
Everything the troops carry slows them down, so they won't have provisions for more then a few days with them. Look at the size of the forest, try to imagine troops that have to work their way through the dense foilage without knowing how exactly to reach their target location and you will realize days don't cover much of the timeframe of the invasion.
Of course, the invading troops will set up counter traps, and of course, elves will die and change tactics (targeting horses and drivers with bows and just leave the wagons and supplies to rot, if troops jump out, stop shooting, if they start searching the forest for their attacker - good luck) I never said that these tactics were foolproof, just that they make an invasion blood and costly and most likely not very profitable.
Since you sometimes use rules for your arguments: Elves get an IG Bonus, low light vision and a bonus to perception, all of those might be useful considering trickery (especially low light vision which gives them an edge in a dense forest I completely forgot about).
Infiltration by disguised rouges will prove hard to do, unless those rouges are elves, themself, or magic is used for the disguise, yet I don't doubt there are spies of the neighboring nations among the elves, just as there are spies of the elves among the neighboring nations. That is part of the great game of international relations (regardless of how little relations there are or how strained they are).
Attrition only needs to come down to serious engagements if the guerillia troops are cought (bad luck, probably dead elves), if the defenders are getting impatient (very unlikely in this case) or if the time is running out - and IMO time would work for the defenders in almost any case. Remember: The elves wouldn't need to kill all invaders, just stop their advancement and making the invasion to costly to continue. Am I sure they would succeed? No, but I consider it likely enough and so would most (military or political) leaders.
If war and invasion were as easy, as calculable and as sound as a way of resolving diplomatical difficulties, there would be much less nationalities (IRL and on Golarion).
Armor does very little against a hail of arrows, shield only do if you use them for cover IRL. Ruleswise, armor doesn't provide damage reduction.
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Actually looking at the Golarion map the odds of Kyonin being attacked are pretty remote.
Of the countries that Kyonin share a border with
Galt constantly stuck in a never ending revolution so pretty unlikely of anything larger than a group of bandits attacking.
River Kingdoms In a pretty much constant state of warfare with themselves and Razmiran.
Razmiran Stuck in Warfare with the River kingdoms also seems more interested in infiltration than outright warfare.
Five Kings mountains Very much Isolationist Also only border they have with Kyonin is Tanglebriar.
Druma Would rather trade than wage war. (yes they have the mercanery League but they are more body guards and escorts than anything else.)
Elves of golarion page 19: Razmiran: If Kyonin’s standoffish relationship with Druma is a cold war, its interactions with Razmiran is a hot one. Left to their own devices, the elves would be
content to let the silliness surrounding the “Living God”
burn itself out—something that shouldn’t take long, as
elves measure time—but Razmiran proves unwilling to
let such blasphemy stand, and border clashes between the
two are common as Razmiran aggressively attempts to
steal goods and land from the relatively small numbers of
Kyonin elves.
Page 20: Lake Encarthan: In a lake brimming with vessels,
the elves guard their slim maritime rights aggressively.
Elven sharpshooters and water elemental wizards keep a
firm grip on territorial waters. Warships from Molthune
and the Living God’s mission barges from Razmiran are
summarily rejected, though more peaceful ships of all
nations are allowed to dock in Greengold daily.
Been attacking Molthunian and Razmiran vessels, in a skirmish war with Razmiran, attacked and took the former Druman holdings in parts of Kyonin, shoot any tresspassers in their forests or people who are lost and ask for directions for too long (that could really cause an incident).
They actually get away with a lot, sour a lot of people's chips and seem to get by. That there have not been many small wars against Druma doesn't make much sense. So it might seem a little remote, but they are actually in current conflicts with powers according to the book.
Replying up, infiltration by disguised rogues would not prove hard to do. The elven militia is not run like an army, does not use formation and makes use of elves all over from Kyonin. A well disguised rogue could even get by without elven, by acting "aloof" not talking and acting characteristically elven. If an elf doesn't know all elves he serves with, if rotations are common in and out as it says, how would an elf know that someone who looks like an elf and acts like an elf, is not an elf? Razmiran's tricks and penchant for infiltration could be quite fruitful.
"Kyonin has little to fear from military aggression" (21). That attitude is very arrogant and not at all wise. There are many ways to counter forest skirmishers, wizards and amateur swordsmen. One of the most obvious would be to attack the forest itself and force an open battle outside of the forest, in the open where cav can be used well against skirmishers, or, an elven partial retreat and the consequences defeat always brings (morale loss, political squabbling, factionalism).
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Golarion Inner sea world Guide Druma entry pg 63
Meanwhile, Kyonin represents the greatest untapped market in Avistan. Merchant-lords sail boatloads of goods to Greengold every week, offering the elves anything that might entice them into steady trade.
Also about the Mercanery league
but many instead join Druma’s justly infamous Mercenary League. The league is ruthless, highly trained, and lavishly well equipped in its protection of the Kalistocrats and their most valued possessions. Black uniforms mark the league’s members in stark contrast to the white-clad merchants, but the mercenaries are as loyal as golems—and some say more deadly. Although not wantonly violent, Mercenary League members are remorselessly amoral in executing orders. In addition to domestic guard duty, the “Blackjackets” escort Drumish caravans and barges, and traverse the Inner Sea on missions for their masters. Wherever these squads go, the prospect of wealth hovers nearby.
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Inner sea world Guide Kyonin entry pg 95 - 96
One of Kyonin’s most significant advantages over other nations is the magical network of aiudara, known to non-elves by the vulgar term “elf gates.” Aiudara appear as elaborately sculpted stone arches that allow anyone to step easily between settlements on opposite sides of the globe, although only the portal deep in Kyonin is capable of reaching fabled Sovyrian. Powered by the same artifact, the Sovyrian Stone, these portals represent a huge part of the elves’ power, as resources can be called instantly from across continents.
The elves of Kyonin would like to be good neighbors with the humans living around them, with the key word being “neighbors”—the desire to live intermixed with humanity is relatively slim for most non-Forlorn elves. Despite their huge leap forward in civilization over the last few thousand years, humans still have a ways to come before their bizarre panoply of religions and governments has any hope of matching elven refinement. As a result, the elves’ natural tendency toward isolationism continues to hold sway in Kyonin, and its closed borders are patrolled with deadly effectiveness by wraithlike bands of rangers
On elf gates, haven't the means and knowledge to activate most of the elf gates been mostly forgotten?
Wraithlike bands of rangers? I thought the militia was composed of many elements from elven society, elves from many vocations. Wraiths eh? I know the elves have a low con, but I didn't think it was that low.
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Pop of Detmer, Highhelm, Kerse and Macridi comes to 69,617 from my sources Diego. Humans also reproduce faster and foreign mercenaries suppliment Druma's armies. What mercenaries do the elves typically use? Here is a problem of relying on a militia of a somewhat low pop country.
And what book is that, as mine say:
Kerse 18.300
Demeter 8.200
Highelm 5.600 dwarves
Macridi 3.200
Total 35.300
[Pathfinder Chronicles, Campaign Setting]
I see you have already received a reply about shield walls. No need to repeat it.
Troops covering each-other don't just wander off.
[Laugh madly] If you can teach to a real life army never to do that you have a job for life.
Sorry but I think you have a too idealized idea of how an army work, even a very well disciplined army.
Medieval armies avoided the woodland as much as possible as they were the worst location to fight for them.
You seem to think that field battles are all that exist in a war.
That is not true, most of the time is spent moving the troops around in travel (and not combat) formation. A combat formation move too slow.
When you do that in a forest without roads you have essentially 2 choices. You accept to move ultra slow and practically build a road while you are marching (at the speed or 1 mile or two every day) or you accept that your troops will be dispersed by the terrain, most of them will not be in sight of each other and easy prey to to guerilla warfare.
A competent army would use scouts, but scouts will be the first to fall to the guerilla fighters.
You will need to use troops to protect your lines of supply and it still be vulnerable to raids.
It will end like Napoleon Russian campaign.
And don't forget, once you shoot for the surprise round, you are at -20 to stealth. Attacks and attention will be coming back. You can flee, and give ground, troops march on. Keep attacking, fleeing, attacking, withdrawing and its time to make fort saves against fatigue. Elves have a low con and because of what they are doing, they are burning more energy in a higher level of exertion compared to a slow moving defensive shooting army.
Again wrong.
First your army use heavy armor, right? Oops, before they reach the combat site the elves would have disappeared and they would have spent a lot of stamina.Second, your army will be reacting to the attack of 10 elves on the right side moving some of the troops in that direction. And the elves would disappear in the woods. An hour lather another 10 elves would attack the rear, or the back or the left side, or the scouts ahead.
Your army, not knowing if it is a major attack or a simple raid will have to react every time. All the men would have to form up (as much as possible in a wood), move to support the attacked group and, if it is a feint, move back in travelling formation.
Your heavy troops will get weary way faster.
And remember that your troops need to sleep. And the elves have better night sight (unless you have a dwarf contingent, but they will slow down your march).
A few scores of elves attacking every night and your troops have a serious problem while the elven skirmishers will have a easier time to move away some mile and sleep decently.
Logistics, if the elves can live in the forest, the humans can also hunt. If you humans eat all the food, elves are going to start starving if they are away from their gardens. The logistical nightmare can be reversed. Rampaging through villages can also beef up stocks and supplies. Invading troops are going to be carrying some supplies of their own determined by organisational doctrine. Attacking logistics is an obvious thing to do, that could easily be turned into a counter-ambush (its wagons full of blackjackets with swords, tower shields and light armour, damn). Their strategies aren't undefeatable.
Living with the resources of the conquered land was Napoleon idea. See how it worked.
An army can't hunt for food.The elves strategy isn't unbeatable, but any general trying an attack the way you are depicting it should be taken to a wall and shoot.
http://pathfinder.wikia.com/wiki/Highhelm
39,917 in Highhelm, the dwarven capital which is curiously in Druma.
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Page 20: Lake Encarthan: In a lake brimming with vessels,
the elves guard their slim maritime rights aggressively.
Elven sharpshooters and water elemental wizards keep a
firm grip on territorial waters. Warships from Molthune
and the Living God’s mission barges from Razmiran are
summarily rejected, though more peaceful ships of all
nations are allowed to dock in Greengold daily.Been attacking Molthunian and Razmiran vessels, in a skirmish war with Razmiran, attacked and took the former Druman holdings in parts of Kyonin, shoot any tresspassers in their forests or people who are lost and ask for directions for too long (that could really cause an incident).
Nice how "are summarily rejected" become "attacked on sight".
You think that our world coastal patrols routinely sunk unwanted ships?
From the description the elvish fleet is doing exactly what a coastal patrol do. Stop unwanted ships and ask forcefully to leave the territorial waters of the elven nation.