C'mon, Kyonin is not Russia, elves are not Cossacks. Nice try of associating the great French defeat to an army invading Kyonin. Kyonin is tiny compared to Russia, the winter is not that of the crown of the world.
For your small party of skirmishers (only one of which needs to be noticed for the ambush to possibly lose initiative), the entire army doesn't have to form up, that section of troops picks targets and takes shots. The progress will be slow, but taking pot shots at many armed invaders will test nerve and speed.
Scouts will fall to guerrilla fighters? Actually human (or demi-human) scouts are also guerrilla fighters. It comes down to a contest and again a person on this forum assumes elves will just immediately win out. Low hp is not a good way to start hard fighting in tight quarters. The would-be ambusher whoever they are, may be also ambushed.
Armies prior to the modern forms of re-organisation, have long foraged for food. The English did quite well in France. One benefit of elven villages is that there is so much emphasis on small scale gardens food could be procured easily via pillage. Would the elves destroy their gardens? Would they over-hunt the forests to deny the enemy?
Ease up with the insults sir, you are getting nasty and defensive.
You think that our world coastal patrols routinely sunk unwanted ships?
From the description the elvish fleet is doing exactly what a coastal patrol do. Stop unwanted ships and ask forcefully to leave the territorial waters of the elven nation.
"You shot him in the knee!"
"That was my warning shot."
Page 20, Elves of Golarion
Outsiders in KyoninMerchants, diplomats, and the merely curious are welcome
in Greengold, so long as they obey the rules and the town’s
overseers believe there’s something to be gained from
their presence. The country’s interior, and especially its
forest, is open only to elves or specially invited guests of
the crown. Seemingly ignorant trespassers are given one
stern warning and explicit directions to Greengold. All
others are shot on sight.
Elf shoots a young Andoranean in the knee, makes a witty joke. Years later, trade with that important partner is cut off and Andoran refuses to help Kyonin against its encircling and very angry enemies. Humans are ambitious, and offences made can drive history.
Making territorial claims over water, pushing around the crews of warships and vessels that look imposing, killng tresspassers in forests (who could be anyone who travels). That can cause quite the incident and offence very quickly. Enemies multiply that way.
Yet somehow it all works out!
http://pathfinder.wikia.com/wiki/Highhelm
39,917 in Highhelm, the dwarven capital which is curiously in Druma.
It is part of the Five Kings Mountains, not of Druma.
You know, the Dwarven nation.Maybe you should use better sources than an unofficial wiki.
My official golarion map seems to indicate highhelm is within Druma's borders. Druma is a merchant league and highhelm quite the productive city well influenced by dwarven crafts.
So, the elves and dwarves apparently get on well, but elves have committed quite the offence against the dwarves allies. There is a cold war afoot in Druma, which is very suspicious and hateful towards Kyonin. That couldn't go badly at all.
You think that our world coastal patrols routinely sunk unwanted ships?
From the description the elvish fleet is doing exactly what a coastal patrol do. Stop unwanted ships and ask forcefully to leave the territorial waters of the elven nation.
"You shot him in the knee!"
"That was my warning shot."
Page 20, Elves of Golarion
Outsiders in Kyonin
Merchants, diplomats, and the merely curious are welcome
in Greengold, so long as they obey the rules and the town’s
overseers believe there’s something to be gained from
their presence. The country’s interior, and especially its
forest, is open only to elves or specially invited guests of
the crown. Seemingly ignorant trespassers are given one
stern warning and explicit directions to Greengold. All
others are shot on sight.
So if you are just there you are told go to Greengold. If you come in armed and hostile you become a pin cushion. Sounds like normal guard routine. Hell you end up on some american bases with out permission you can be shot on sight.
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C'mon, Kyonin is not Russia, elves are not Cossacks. Nice try of associating the great French defeat to an army invading Kyonin. Kyonin is tiny compared to Russia, the winter is not that of the crown of the world.
For your small party of skirmishers (only one of which needs to be noticed for the ambush to possibly lose initiative), the entire army doesn't have to form up, that section of troops picks targets and takes shots. The progress will be slow, but taking pot shots at many armed invaders will test nerve and speed.
Scouts will fall to guerrilla fighters? Actually human (or demi-human) scouts are also guerrilla fighters. It comes down to a contest and again a person on this forum assumes elves will just immediately win out. Low hp is not a good way to start hard fighting in tight quarters. The would-be ambusher whoever they are, may be also ambushed.
Armies prior to the modern forms of re-organisation, have long foraged for food. The English did quite well in France. One benefit of elven villages is that there is so much emphasis on small scale gardens food could be procured easily via pillage. Would the elves destroy their gardens? Would they over-hunt the forests to deny the enemy?
Ease up with the insults sir, you are getting nasty and defensive.
Should I not point out that your unofficial wiki is wrong? It is offensive suggesting that you should use official sources?
Please, explain to me why any wild animal will stay near an army on the march.
Foraging work well where you have people with stores and cattle to raid, not if you need to hunt and gather the plants.
Yes, Kyonin is not Russia but a forest is not the steppe. And a army in a forest will stop every time there are attack and for up or it will be destroyed piecemeal.
In a ambush and counter ambush game being better at hiding and spotting count more than 1 extra HP. And elves get +2 to dexterity (so +1 to hide) and +2 to Perception.
Number wise the advantages count more than the disadvantage.
Havoc, and Americans are quite significantly hated across the world, and are engaged in many wars. Some say American pride and its exceptionalism motivates external forces.
On skirmishers trying to take an army, simply shoot back and move on. If the skirmishers stay then they fight the army, if they flee, cheer the cheer of victory and head on.
Diego, relax about the sources, this isn't academia, this is a discussion about a game. There is too much of a serious tone.
You don't seem to accept the elves could ever be defeated, in small scale or large, so there isn't much more to discuss. I've talked for pages. Their weaknesses are glaring. I've seen elves defeated in multiple games, as happens to over-confident generalists.
The good news is, today in a game I'm in, I get to send my Kelesh ninja character Muunokhoi deep into Kyonin. He's got to keep his skills sharp you see, and determine how skilled the elves really are who killed an old clan member some time ago. He isn't the most stealthy ninja around, far more of a specialist in his ki abilities. It should be enough though, the Kyonin woods are pretty tame, and the elves that haven't been fighting the Razmiranians should be pretty green, and oh so confident. They are poets/expert: gardeners/wizard/fighter/rangers after all.
Havoc, and Americans are quite significantly hated across the world, and are engaged in many wars. Some say American pride and its exceptionalism motivates external forces.
I'll have you know I am loved and cherished in many countries otherwise we wouldn't have nearly as many organizations dedicated to creating me. :p
Your perception of how you are viewed is not the entire reality.
You have an extremely ill-informed view of forest combat.
1) No formations in forests. Meaning, your shield guys moving SLOWLY in heavy armor cannot screen the crossbow guys. Formations break apart, there are gaps, people become isolated, and 20 yards away you might not even be able to see your allies, while a thousand men won't know anything of what is going on.
2) At ANY attack, the army overreacts. Progress halts. Soldiers run to and fro, trying to line up and find the source of the fight, lest it be more then an ambush. after a couple dozen times doing this, your soldiers are exhausted, demoralized, and jumping at shadows.
3) Elves have TWICE+ the visual range of humans in their forests (perception bonus + low light vision). The -20 spot check is meaningless for sniping...humans simply won't be able to see them, and they can always 5' step back into cover.
4) You're assuming the fighting is being done by the 5th level elven militia of mixed wiz/f's, instead of the level 8+ bands of elite rangers with wizards on call if need be. That's quite arrogant.
5) With three castings of True Strike a day, Elven hedge Wizards can effectively ignore range, concealment and armor...and they can cast it on the buff elves with the stronger bows, instead of using it themselves.
6) Shadows and cover are EVERYWHERE. Elite elves can literally appear at any time, out of nowhere, and the terrain says your army cannot wheel and respond in anything resembling the time needed to do anything about them.
7) Infiltration by disguise is going to be VERY difficult. Kyonin elves are an isolated culture...their accent alone is going to be near impossible to replicate, and they've had hundreds of years to get to know one another on sight. Add to that increased Perception, and trying something that silly just isn't going to work.
8) No army hunts and lives off the land unless they are surrounded by herd animals. Needless to say, a forest doesn't do that. And having to hunt for food will necessarily slow the army down even further.
And, c'mon, common sense here. You send out lightly armored men to stalk animals, while elves are out there watching, concealed, waiting for the men to walk right up to them? Your scouts and hunters are going to die, and rather quickly. Remember, TWICE the visual range...they'll kill the men, and the men won't even SEE them.
9) Kyonin is small, but it is vaster then any army, and can swallow one into its green depths without trouble. Thinking an army can walk into a forest and manuver like they can on open plains shows you don't know much about manuvering in terrain. Battles are fought on plains BECAUSE there is room to manuver, and deploy your best troops and cavalry.
Guerrilas fight in forests because asymmetric warfare is ideal in broken terrain full of concealment. The only fighting you can do there is skirmish fighting, and elves have all the edge because of visual ability there, and knowing the ground.
Fighting a lightly armored, stealthy, missile armed and magic using force who knows the ground incredibly well is a freaking nightmare for an army. Those bands of rangers can hit way above their weight, and if you mass a bunch of even low level magic-using troops, what they can do to an enemy is impressive, to say the least.
==Aelryinth
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You don't seem to accept the elves could ever be defeated, in small scale or large, so there isn't much more to discuss. I've talked for pages. Their weaknesses are glaring. I've seen elves defeated in multiple games, as happens to over-confident generalists.
a) if you had read my posts with some attention you would have noticed this: "Fight in a open field and your blackjacks will win most of the time, enter in the elves forest and almost certainly the losses for them will pile up way faster for them than for the elves.";
b) you are doing the same with your blackjacets with less things to back you up;
c) I know something of military history, so I found your assumptions on how warfare work really unpalatable.
5) With three castings of True Strike a day, Elven hedge Wizards can effectively ignore range, concealment and armor...and they can cast it on the buff elves with the stronger bows, instead of using it themselves.
Good analysis, but this is wrong with Pathfinder. True strike has been changed to a range of "personal" only.
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The fun part is that this whole discussion is about a mercantile state invading its neighbor state.
Let’s see what they would gain/lose if they win:
Pay for the war costs –
Loot the captured state +
Lose a trading partner that buy a lot of refined metals –
Lose a trading partner that sell good quality finished goods and isn’t interested in trading abroad –
Gain a open trading route through the former land of Kyonin +
Gain a forest, good source of raw materials +
Lose the people that produce the finished goods (I doubt that after a war like the one depicted there will be a lot of elves willing and capable to produce high quality goods for the invaders) –
Gain the hate of at least 2/3 of the elves on the continent. On the other hand they will be a small number so call it a wash =
Gain the control of a interplanetary gate that can sprout a bunch of angry elves at any time –
Share your border with a demon infested section of forest without knowing the system used by the elves to contain them -
So unless the raw wood and the trade route are worth a lot I don’t see any reason to start a war for a mercantile state.
Someone can suggest other factors pro/against?
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You'll also have earned the distrust if not outright hostility of any good aligned nation nearby(Lastwall, Nirmathas(sizable elven population), Andoran, Five Kings Mountains) for acts of unprovoked invasion and possible genocide. Even choosing to enslave the elven population instead will still bring Andoran's wrath to bear for certain.
And then there's the matter that these folks are suddenly going to be less likely to want to do trade with you. You've lost not one trading partner, but at least five.
The elves are really not loved, they treat their neighbours with distant haughtiness. The ties to Andoran are pretty strong, but Druma, Razmiran, Molthune, Southern River Kingdoms, they hate them.
Lastwall and Nirmathas are also very very busy, and the Dwarves have closer ties to Druma.
Question on Kyonin, does it have an elite army or a militia? Because one is not the other. Quite far from it in fact. Elite bands can be taken out by other elite bands, mercenaries tailored to be challenging counters and opponents (ogres with some armour are good counters to elves in my gaming experiences).
Coalitions are the biggest threat, each biting off a piece of the geographic pie. Razmiran is already fighting the elves (seem to be getting away with raiding), Druma is in a cold war and close to entering if a mistake is made or an obvious opening is there. Andoran could save the day, but politics is about asking, do we have anything to gain from this? The idea that Lastwall would invade multiple countries biting at the Kyonin pie, well, don't they have more pressing concerns? Andoran could be of great help, but the costs might be too high.
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Again repeating what has already been said from the Druma entry in the Inner sea world guide
Meanwhile, Kyonin represents the greatest untapped market in Avistan. Merchant-lords sail boatloads of goods to Greengold every week, offering the elves anything that might entice them into steady trade.
Now no where does any of that match my definition of what would be a cold war
'Elites' is also a hand-waving term.
"Elite" human soldiers are level 3-4. That's probably lower level then the average elven militaman.
'True' human elites/commanders, are level 7-8. Heroes of the land are 10+.
The elven 'ranger bands' are probably all 6-8th level. Their leaders are 10+. They've probably got at least as many higher level characters as human nations with a lot more people.
And you're fighting them on their home ground.
I'm just not seeing anything going your way, or making it 'easy'. Just about every bit of literature on elves caters to the fact they have 'levels' on average humans. Tolkien has elves more powerful then any humans, average elves are like great human heroes. Greyhawk always had the average elven warrior 2-4 levels above the average human warrior, and often with a dash of magic thrown in on the side.
This formula clearly breaks down when it's elf/7 against human/7...the elf has no advantages in such a case, except by terrain or circumstance. But Elf/4 against human 1 or 2 is a significant and dangerous power discrepency!
==Aelryinth
Again repeating what has already been said from the Druma entry in the Inner sea world guide
Meanwhile, Kyonin represents the greatest untapped market in Avistan. Merchant-lords sail boatloads of goods to Greengold every week, offering the elves anything that might entice them into steady trade.
Now no where does any of that match my definition of what would be a cold war
Think Nineteenth century Japan. Closed off for centuries and only allowing very limited trade until the U.S. sailed a fleet of warships into Edo Harbor and forced them to open trade at gunpoint.
It's not that hard to believe that Druma's leadership could come to the badly mistaken conclusion that a similar tactic could work with Kyonin.
We are not talking about greyhawk or lord of the rings (or warhammer fantasy for that matter). The isolationist elves have for a long time, had few foes to fight (save Razmiran recently). They are not getting the type of experience to get to level 8. They are not killing eachother in droves as you might find in a challenge-heavy feudalism. Their forests have long been patrolled and would be low on monsters.
How does an elf that doesn't fight much or venture afield (and outside adventuring is really rare and a source of stigma because of outside contact) get to eighth level? Aelryinth, if the opponent of the elf had been in more conflicts, battles, if the opponent has experienced a higher and more committed level of training, it is the elf which will be lower level, by the rules of dnd class progression. Elves do not get levels for free, no one gets levels for free. Age changes your attributes, it does not mean you have pushed yourself or prevailed.
Kevin Mack, check the elves of Golarion book, it talks about the cold war with Druma. Also Kyonin doesn't produce that much. It's products are highly valued, but as the book says, most don't work and very few are interested in production for others. Suddenly the reason Andoran has to save these people grows less and less. Suddenly the great trade opportunities aren't actually there because of the weak elven economy, there is no industry and they don't take crafting seriously in the manner of the dwarves or with their level of commitment.
Firest. Say Druma did do an invasion of Kyonin, a big one up the river with barges protected from arrows, and into the capital, forcing the elves to fight and possibly lose, or head into the forest. If, and this was very important in the dnd large-scale battle game I played, an outsider gets a serious elven city and digs in, it gets real hard for skirmishers to un-seat them. Elven doctrine isn't about the seige. Archery and bows are good, a higher level of defences can prove better. Against a well-dug in opponent of professional soldiers, militias don't do so well unless they vastly outnumber, and are well led and coordinated. Elven guerilla operations emphasise doing your own thing, and they don't believe in formation like other armies. This is another way in which the elves of golarion are not the lord of the rings elves. The elves don't have many cities to lose, if an outsider force gets one and forces the elves to have to attack (and not their usual skirmish withdraw defend tactics), it can get real ugly. With all the Druman wealth and the possibility of so much hired help and the force they bring, a serious invasion against an already attacked opponent (attacked by Razmiran) can possibly work.
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Nothing of that is ruled out by the Elves of Golarion Book. The campaign books are all meant to provide a basic situation more or less frozen in time, so no AP or Adventure becomes obsolete just because another year has passed (I don't doubt there will be slight modifications in the future, though). If you think, this basic situation calls for a war or invasion, great, run a campaign with that development, you are using the books exactly as they are meant.
Nobody in this threat said that there might never be a war against Kyonin or that the Elves would never lose such a war. You, on the other hand didn't take into consideration any of the advantages the elves might have through terrain, skill, and knowledge of the lore of their homeland, when predicting they would be an easy target, more or less falling without the invader working up a sweat. That was the line of thought many other posters, myself included, were arguing against.
And - sorry, but in your last post you are doing that again.
1) You might find out, that experience points are meant to track the advancement od player characters, not for NPCs. Unless you are a human supercomputer or have sophisticated software to track the development of the world, advancing NPCs by computing the amout of challenges he meets in his life up to the point where you need him in your campaign, NPCs have the level the GM wants them to have (and thinks reflects the abilities of the NPC best).
You might also find out, that combat is not the only way to gain xp, but overcoming challenges is. For PCs, these challenges are set by the gamemaster. for a vanilla Pathfinder group, that might well mean combat, traps, the occasional diplomatic challenge, but it doesn't have to be. Trade, exploration, diplomacy, riddlecraft and loregathering might all be challenges for specific groups of PCs and be awarded with xp. Extrapolate this to NPCs and a more abstract way of challenges ->xp/levels, overcoming a drought, the cahllenges of everyday live (and the harder challenges of extraordinary circumstances) will see to higher level NPCs (Adventurers will level faster due to a higher amount of challenges, mirrored by the fact that there are very few NPCs beyound level 9 in Pathdiner).
Keeping barges from reaching your capital is not a very hard task.
We tried to explain why we think formations are of little use in a dense forest. If we didn't sway your opinon, fine, but bringing formations up again and again will probably not sway ours, either, so perhaps we should just drop them out of the equasion instaed or arguing them over and over again.
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We are not talking about greyhawk or lord of the rings (or warhammer fantasy for that matter). The isolationist elves have for a long time, had few foes to fight (save Razmiran recently). They are not getting the type of experience to get to level 8. They are not killing eachother in droves as you might find in a challenge-heavy feudalism. Their forests have long been patrolled and would be low on monsters.
You know about that big nasty demon and his cohorts inhabiting a corner of that "low on monsters" forest?
This:
Firest. Say Druma did do an invasion of Kyonin, a big one up the river with barges protected from arrows, and into the capital, forcing the elves to fight and possibly lose, or head into the forest. If, and this was very important in the dnd large-scale battle game I played, an outsider gets a serious elven city and digs in, it gets real hard for skirmishers to un-seat them.
and this:
The good news is, today in a game I'm in, I get to send my Kelesh ninja character Muunokhoi deep into Kyonin. He's got to keep his skills sharp you see, and determine how skilled the elves really are who killed an old clan member some time ago. He isn't the most stealthy ninja around, far more of a specialist in his ki abilities. It should be enough though, the Kyonin woods are pretty tame, and the elves that haven't been fighting the Razmiranians should be pretty green, and oh so confident. They are poets/expert: gardeners/wizard/fighter/rangers after all.
So your arguments are about the Pathfinder lore in the different campaign books or about the campaign your group is playing?
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Firest. Say Druma did do an invasion of Kyonin, a big one up the river with barges protected from arrows, and into the capital, forcing the elves to fight and possibly lose, or head into the forest.
Let's say your guys build their merrimack like oar powered barges at Kerse, traverse the the lake Enchartan and row down the Sellen through Razmir.
That leave another 50 miles to make in elven territory before reaching the city.
What would be the survival rate of ship and crew during that part of the voyage? It would not be a surprise attack as they would have been seen going up the lake and enter the river.
The elves have a decent number of spellcasters. A single reverse gravity on the bow of your barge and it will have a very hard time staying afloat with the river water that flow upward under the bow and then fall down all around the area of reverse gravity.
2 control water (even in the hands of a level 7 druid) will create a 14' depression under the bow of your ship and a 14' rise under the stern.
With a higher level spell caster you can do a even nicer joke to the ship. Lower water under it, wall of force above the ship so it can't rise up, dismiss the lower water.
At a rate of half a thousand dead every time a ship is sunk your army will have a horrid level of losses.
Then you are again dismissing logistics. Your army get the city, the elves torch the stores. What will they eat?
Half of your army will be constantly going back and forth with the barges between Kerse an Iadara to move the food?
And all that will happen if Razmir is willing to let your army pass through his territory. After all Druma is ruled by the clergy of a rival good.
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Second darkness spoilers
As for elf lvl's to give an idea of there most basic troops looking at second darkness book 3 Armagedon echo the most common type of elf encounterd in that is elf scouts which are Ranger/2Rogue3 and in Memory of Darkness are the Shinn Rakaroth soldiers that are lvl 6 fighters. Specific character include a elf aristocrat 5/diviner 9 as a noble, An elf captain who is a lvl 10 fighter and the winter council which conists of a Female elf ranger 13, Female elf cleric 13 (Calistria), Male elf druid 14 and a Male gray elf wizard 15
As long as we're spoiling Second Darkness...
As for why this isn't mentioned in Elves of Golarion, probably because it's a players' book and thus not a good place for spoilers for an Adventure Path they might be playing in.
the whole 'mountain of bodies' thing is a handwaver.
You don't have to murder people to gain xp. You have to overcome them. Tournaments are the classic method of doing so. Most duels are not fought to the death...and in realms with magical healing and revivification, that wouldn't stop some from just continuing on! Callistra, dude...these are overly passionate sorts who'd be all up in one another's faces, and then just let it all lapse.
You send in your elite, and he runs into the elven elites. They laugh at the arrogant human who thinks he's sneaky stumbling around in THEIR woods.
Those 'arrow-protected barges' could have a very hard time getting around any rapids or falls the elves choose to 'erect' in the way, not to mention loads of other magic. And as soon as anyone shows themselves, True Strike Arrows from the Arcane Archers take them out at 800 meters, or something.
No experience. Keeping a nascent Demon Lord penned up for a century, and all his servants and corrupted creatures of his domain. Things that would send normal humans and their armies running home for their mothers.
Yeah, them elves are gonna be soft, all right.
==Aelryinth
I'd also like to point out the human version of winning is quite different from the elven version of winning.
Winning (for a human): We invaded Kyonin and drove the Elves out. We keep the territory. We win!
Winning (for an elf):
We've spent the last 100 years laying down magical traps. If an Elf doesn't speak a command word over it before another 100 years have passed, the trap will go off.
Some traps cause tsunamis, some traps cause earthquakes, some traps cause tornadoes, some traps cause terrible storms lasting months.
After we retreated from Kyonin, we allowed the aggressors to make their own beds. Now, five of their generations later, their great-great-great-grandchildren will now pay the blood debt owed to our race.
The land itself has turned against them and they have fled the "cursed" land of Kyonin. Having won, we return to our homes after a short delay of only a century. If only all wars could be so short and bloodless.
Mage, there is nothing mentioned about magically trapping their entire country, it would also be entirely against their love of nature philosophy. Where would they get the funds and resources to put such high level traps down so pervasively, powerful magical traps cost resources, and their economy is fragile, as stated in the text. It is a destructive fantasy, not even close to canon.
Also, why is there such an assumption the elven wizard class have gone heavily into invocation and unlocked its higher level mastery so pervasively? There is no mention of war wizards, or coteries of offensive-focused druids ready to defeat invaders, there is no mention of an army of wizards under arms ready to respond. The elves do not have an army or central organisation in the manner of an army. The doctrine of formation is rejected, so there won't be rows of elven wizards ready to throw about their spells. As I have said before if almost all elves are good archers then there aren't high level wizards or druids en masse. They make up an elite, based in the city, based in an advisory role as the book specifies. Bureaucracy and peace do not a mighty war wizard make.
The above are approaching this, not by going what is said, but by imagining the elves are ready, the elves are efficient and masterful, and that they have near limitless magical and ranged troop resources. The elven militia does its own thing, they don't fight in the coordinated fashion of other golarion factions, they do not even have basic standardised troop types, as the militia is a mix of elves from all vocations and backgrounds, in a society that doesn't like to work, and which takes a very long time to even get to level 1. The bands of mixed troops could be anything, are not guaranteed to be elite if they haven't personally struggled hard, and could very much be out of position to do their best against an invading army, because they have not adopted centralised organisation or a fixed hierarchy in military matters.
The wizards that could do their best, are not in wizard units, ready to be ordered into pin-point accuracy in the usage of their abilities.
There is no mention of druids bands being under the Queen's control, and capable of being used to halt an invading maritime force or land-based invasion.
The power is clumsily dispersed in roving bands on the defence, or, as a populace relaxing in the cities. They could all be dragged into a theatre, an army of scouts and skirmishers, chaotic and with some spellcasters mixed in. That is a very chaotic body from which to expect exact tactics to emerge.
the whole 'mountain of bodies' thing is a handwaver.
You don't have to murder people to gain xp. You have to overcome them. Tournaments are the classic method of doing so. Most duels are not fought to the death...and in realms with magical healing and revivification, that wouldn't stop some from just continuing on! Callistra, dude...these are overly passionate sorts who'd be all up in one another's faces, and then just let it all lapse.
You send in your elite, and he runs into the elven elites. They laugh at the arrogant human who thinks he's sneaky stumbling around in THEIR woods.
Those 'arrow-protected barges' could have a very hard time getting around any rapids or falls the elves choose to 'erect' in the way, not to mention loads of other magic. And as soon as anyone shows themselves, True Strike Arrows from the Arcane Archers take them out at 800 meters, or something.
No experience. Keeping a nascent Demon Lord penned up for a century, and all his servants and corrupted creatures of his domain. Things that would send normal humans and their armies running home for their mothers.
Yeah, them elves are gonna be soft, all right.
==Aelryinth
Running? You mean like Lastwall?
You clearly think they are the best, there are larger empires and armies, with more experienced and focused warriors.
You present it like all elves are veterans of the battles with the demon and his minions. That's curious, how many low level wizards or gardeners fighting in the dispersed elven militia do your own thing style would survive such opponents?
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The above are approaching this, not by going what is said, but by imagining the elves are ready, the elves are efficient and masterful, and that they have near limitless magical and ranged troop resources. The elven militia does its own thing, they don't fight in the coordinated fashion of other golarion factions, they do not even have basic standardised troop types,
Again second Darkness seems to disagree with this assumption. Since all the elf combat groups you do meet are all organised and have fully working command.
No, I've played second darkness, the battles in the ruins against the drow bring some memories back. The surface elven skirmish groups spread out, did their own thing, had trouble backing each-other and the pcs up, violence was dispersed and not concentrated. There was no cav, there were no heavy or medium infantry, or heavy polearm barbs or fighters to kill monsters quickly, there were no notable leaders leading the attacks to bravely drive the drow back and finish it quickly. It was piece by piece, and all over the place, with one troop type on the high elf side.
And if they were so fantastic, why are the pcs needed, and why have the drow been having victories and putting the surface elves under pressure? That the way the elves fight and what their capabilities and tactics are is quite predictable really works against them.
For a militia troop composed of often-rotated out part time warriors to be ranger and rogue is quite the stretch. Where are the commoner levels? The expert or aristocrat or bard levels? What of the age-old typical elven combination of fighter/wizard, they were nowhere to be seen there. The elven militias are from all portions of their society, and yet they are presented in second darkness as merging two pc classes together, and not having any npc levels despite having a range of other non-combat related interests.
I.E. if an elf spent a great deal of time tending to gardens or being stylish and being seen around town, then commoner or aristocrat makes far more sense than ranger/rogue.
Interesting points Rossi.
Indeed, I agree the elves have a decent number of spellcasters. There is however a difference beyween a decent number of spellcasters and a decent number of high-level spellcasters. Reverse gravity is a level 8 druid spell or a levl 7 wizard/sorcerer spell. Meaning you need a character who is at least a level 15 druid or a level 13 wizard. Wouldn't have sorcerers since that thing is frowned upon as stated in the elves of golarion book. So what is the assumption here? The elves have a reasonably large number of such individuals? I can see them having alot of wizards but that coupled with high-level wizards (level 13+) is an extremely long stretch.
The part on logistics. The elves torch the stores and move away. Thats great. Are they wizards or rangers. If they are wizards, then how much can they carry as they "torch the stores? Unless there is the assumption that the average elf wizard is powerful enough to cast teleport and leave in that manner(At least level 9). If they are rangers thats fine since it does state that there are alot of rangers among the elves. If they are elven ranger/wizards then something's gotta give. Is the spellcasting more potent or their ranger abilities?
I've seen how players create characters like say a wizard with high int/dex/strength/con. I have to say it doesn't make much sense to see it. If the average elf is that way, it could work since I can't picture the average militia men being level 9+. Don't forget that while elves can be stealthy, one shouldn't assume that whoever is involved in guarding the supplies has no chance of picking them up. Guardsmen can be perceptive (they may not all be pure fighters). Under-estimating one's foe is the first step to defeat. A mistake I can see elves making given how they view themselves in relation to the rest of the realm.
Mage, there is nothing mentioned about magically trapping their entire country, it would also be entirely against their love of nature philosophy. Where would they get the funds and resources to put such high level traps down so pervasively, powerful magical traps cost resources, and their economy is fragile, as stated in the text. It is a destructive fantasy, not even close to canon.
It's only one possible scenario. The point here is that the most important resource the elves possess is time. And, quite frankly, it's ridiculous to think that beings with such a short lifespan could hope to defeat (in the long term) a foe who is so long-lived.
A few dozen polymorph spells and a half dozen decades later, the elves would be in positions of power and influence within every human community they wanted to infiltrate. What would seem like a lifetime of friendship to a human is merely a semester in a method-acting theater class to an elf.
If there are any practical ways to overcome this tremendous advantage of time, I am unaware of them. I can think of nothing short of complete genocide that would be effective. It's hard to get humans to commit to a strategy over 50 years; does there even exist a way to get them to commit over 50 generations?
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Interesting points Rossi.
Notice that:
a)the basic anti barge tactic require 1 level 7 druid. Unless he is low on wisdom he can cast 2 move water spells.
The other options require higher level spellcasters but are show only as they are more fun.
b) There is the big "elf gate" just outside the capital and probably there are several other in and around it, so moving big loads of vital stuff isn't so important. BTW the wizard really need to move his speelbooks. All the rest can be easily replaced in a few (teens) of years.
c) Teleport:
d) You torch your stockpile so the enemy don't pick them up.
3.5 has stated several times that his army would live on the land.
If the barge invaders use barge convoys to supply the troops with food they would not be capable to accomplish much.
A soldier need at least 1 kg of expendables/day and a war horse at last 3 times that (a war horse will not be capable of trucking around a knight in heavy armour if feed only grass)
The army need at least 10.000 soldiers to occupy and garrison a city that had 60.000 habitants before the attack.
let's cite some piece from here: "Each man needed three pounds of food a day, and the livestock needed 20 pounds." "Armies foraged, at the farthest, 60 miles from their lines of march." " As a result, a medieval army would create a path of wasteland of 10 or more miles in its wake. Because of the time invested in foraging, this method of logistics would slow the army’s progress to 5 to 10 miles a day."
Note that you don't forage in a forest.
So our occupation army need 30.000 pound of food for the troops every day, another 10.000 for 500 between horses and pack beasts.
That alone require a barge of food every day. But then you need to feed your rovers (as the barge should be "immune" to arrow fire it can't use sails).
So every day you have a barge going downstream for 100 miles (got the new word book yesterday, the section of river totally in elven hand is long 100 miles) and another 50 upstream before getting to a "friendly" port (in Razmir) where they can buy the food. Then you have them row downstream for 50 miles and upstream in elven lands for 100 miles.
One up and one down every day (at an average 4 knot speed and 12 hours/day rowing the voyage would take 5 days going back and forth).
So we will have 10 barges with a complement of around 200 men each going back and fort on the river, every day. That is another 2.000 sailors, eating another 6.000 pounds of stuff every day.
Every ship lost will mean a day of reduced rations for the troops.
As already said 1 single level 7 druid can sunk a barge with ease.
e) that elven gate network work and (read the campaign book) can and is used to call reinforcements from all the elven settlements around the word (and is things are dire enough from another word too). Elves could underestimate other populations, but underestimating them is common apparently.
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I.E. if an elf spent a great deal of time tending to gardens or being stylish and being seen around town, then commoner or aristocrat makes far more sense than ranger/rogue.
As the population of Druma spend so much time getting rich, Expert with a specialization in merchant skills make much more sense than any combat profession.
It cut both ways.
the whole 'mountain of bodies' thing is a handwaver.
You don't have to murder people to gain xp. You have to overcome them. Tournaments are the classic method of doing so. Most duels are not fought to the death...and in realms with magical healing and revivification, that wouldn't stop some from just continuing on! Callistra, dude...these are overly passionate sorts who'd be all up in one another's faces, and then just let it all lapse.
You send in your elite, and he runs into the elven elites. They laugh at the arrogant human who thinks he's sneaky stumbling around in THEIR woods.
Those 'arrow-protected barges' could have a very hard time getting around any rapids or falls the elves choose to 'erect' in the way, not to mention loads of other magic. And as soon as anyone shows themselves, True Strike Arrows from the Arcane Archers take them out at 800 meters, or something.
No experience. Keeping a nascent Demon Lord penned up for a century, and all his servants and corrupted creatures of his domain. Things that would send normal humans and their armies running home for their mothers.
Yeah, them elves are gonna be soft, all right.
==Aelryinth
Running? You mean like Lastwall?
You clearly think they are the best, there are larger empires and armies, with more experienced and focused warriors.
You present it like all elves are veterans of the battles with the demon and his minions. That's curious, how many low level wizards or gardeners fighting in the dispersed elven militia do your own thing style would survive such opponents?
I clearly think nothing, you clearly think they blow eggrolls, and being a couple hundred years old, having a different perspective on 'casual effort' means nothing to you.
You decry skirmish tactics, when pike squares and lines of infantry are just targets for AoE's that wipe them clean in an instant.
You think there's going to be strong cavalry in a forest. A forest, fer chrissakes!
And I dunno, elves are smarter then you are, how well would YOU do fighting in small warbands against a chaotic and disorganized enemy? If you had teachers with centuries of experience, and a hundred years to throw away on militia duties, knowing that you have to be good enough to stand and fight individually tough things, numerous weak things, and in terrain that is very unforgiving to cavalry, heavy armor, line tactics, formation marching, and the like?
The elves are optimized for their environment. There's a reason they don't mass up in lines on plains and throw bodies at an enemy like humans do.
Your whole argument seems to come down to "Their tactics suck, they should be dead!"
The question now is, "Why aren't they dead?"
And there is only one answer. "Because they're so damn good at what they do, and their tactics DON'T suck for what they have to do and deal with."
You're trying to make the facts NOT fit the history. You need to spin that around and change the perspective. How could the elves accomplish all they have, if, as you say, they suck?
They'd have to be pretty damn good at what they do. And there's all the answer that you need.
==Aelryinth
Not all of Kyonin is forests, there are plains, there are mountains. A longbow is a good weapon on an open battlefield, or shooting down (oh yeah) but the weaknesses of skirmishers become greater when exposed to the attentions of enemy divisions. On the plains and hills, cav can most certainly be used to good effect. The forest fighting would indeed be hard, it is what they focus on (even if they do use such a large and bulky weapon as the longbow in dense and cluttered forests with low visibility elf or not (can't see through solid trees and dense foliage, not really the smartest choice, short bows would actually better fit that environment). If the one troop type of a country (skirmishers with some magical support and wizards amongst their number) is tailored to skirmishing in woods, then problems abound in fighting an enemy out in the open, or if they have the high ground, are dug in. Lose or give ground here and the edges of Kyonin get eaten away. Possibly till the forests and one waterway is all they have.
Their great accomplishments? The elves have lost most of their old worldy holdings, they are a minor isolationist power in the inner sea. Their greatness in wizardry is proclaimed by their own race, from their own people and perspective. They claim to be all that, but don't remove growing threats and enemies. Eventually something is going to swallow them, if they don't adapt (which the Queen is interested in doing, but can she move her chaotic semi-feudal people away from the old ways?).
I actually really like skirmish tactics, skirmishing, skirmish characters. Prefer the stealth and thrown weapons, or stealth sneak attack with reach, put them under pressure. The funny thing is, elves aren't the only ones that can do it, and aren't the best by default (bugbears, gnolls, Qadiran horsemen, Kelesh/Mongolian-themed horse archers, Nirmathans, ogres or half ogres, orc shotput throwers--these are all quite proficient). What is more annoying is the one trick pony can become a real weakness if you aren't in the best spot to use it.
On barges, spells can easily be wasted on decoys/illusions, with wizards or druids picked off when they get in range to cast (counter-counter skirmishers lol) and no one has answered equalisers question of where do they get the ready availability of level 13 spellcasters? Aren't spells to mess with a barge very high level? Lose any one of these rare individuals, they can't be replaced next week. It takes decades for an elven wizard to get even level one after all. And if they are the leaders of the elven nation, its advisors and educators, perhaps they should be levelling in aristocrat instead of wizard, since it more corresponds with what they do.
The greatest threat to elves is a long war, which is what Razmiran is trying to do. Slow reproduction, a small number of craftsmen, low work ethic. Like any army, if they let off too many shots, if they don't have enough devoted to fletching in their economy, they could run low on arrows. Seems unlikely? Who is making the arrows? And will they really cut down the forests to make more defences, bows, arrows etc etc.
No, I've played second darkness, the battles in the ruins against the drow bring some memories back. The surface elven skirmish groups spread out, did their own thing, had trouble backing each-other and the pcs up, violence was dispersed and not concentrated. There was no cav, there were no heavy or medium infantry, or heavy polearm barbs or fighters to kill monsters quickly, there were no notable leaders leading the attacks to bravely drive the drow back and finish it quickly. It was piece by piece, and all over the place, with one troop type on the high elf side.
And if they were so fantastic, why are the pcs needed, and why have the drow been having victories and putting the surface elves under pressure? That the way the elves fight and what their capabilities and tactics are is quite predictable really works against them.
You can't really use the Elves fighting against the Drow as an example of how the Elven military would act in a major war.
Remember, the war against the Drow is a secret. The forces deployed against them aren't the best forces the Elves have available, they're the forces the Winter Council believes they can trust, intimidate, or make disappear in order to keep the secret of the Drow's existence.
As a result you have a group of individuals chosen either on the basis of their ideological purity or because they're expendable to the Council, rather than their ability as soldiers (and note I said soldiers, not fighters. There's a difference!) or to work together as a team in battle.
I can, because elven tactics are well known. They harp on about them often and repeat them against opponents, an un-wise act.
Wouldn't the war against the drow be the best forces the elves have available? Unless they want to lose against one of their most hated and committed enemies. Are you suggesting the militiaman is even higher than fourth level on average? Why is this so from a part-time soldier? Whom have they been defeating to get even higher? Why aren't elven adventurers the only real heroes of Golarion then? Because here on this board there is the assumption of elves being superior in levels. As I've said before, they psychology and philosophies work against really high level being common (get distracted easily, their emotions and memories strongly interfere in the day to day, don't favour hard work or struggling to achieve like a short lived human, learn slowly, are so confident only elves have mastery in everything) and that the high level actors would be solely of one class: they love to dabble and generalise, and the militia service can easily push one into being a bit of a jungle fighter and not purely focused in another area (like wizardry, social mastery, pure bard).
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On barges, spells can easily be wasted on decoys/illusions, with wizards or druids picked off when they get in range to cast (counter-counter skirmishers lol) and no one has answered equalisers question of where do they get the ready availability of level 13 spellcasters? Aren't spells to mess with a barge very high level? Lose any one of these rare individuals, they can't be replaced next week. It takes decades for an elven wizard to get even level one after all. And if they are the leaders of the elven nation, its advisors and educators, perhaps they should be levelling in aristocrat instead of wizard, since it more corresponds with what they do.
Since you have missed the reference several times:
Control Water
School transmutation [water]; Level cleric 4, druid 4, sorcerer/wizard 6
...
Range long (400 ft. + 40 ft./level)
Area water in a volume of 10 ft./level by 10 ft./level by 2 ft./level (S)
Duration 10 min./level (D)
Saving Throw none; see text; Spell Resistance no
...
Lower Water: This causes water or similar liquid to reduce its depth by as much as 2 feet per caster level (to a minimum depth of 1 inch). The water is lowered within a squarish depression whose sides are up to caster level × 10 feet long. In extremely large and deep bodies of water, such as a deep ocean, the spell creates a whirlpool that sweeps ships and similar craft downward, putting them at risk and rendering them unable to leave by normal movement for the duration of the spell. ...
So a level 7 cleric or druid can cast it from hiding at 680'. Good luck spotting him with a +68 DC modifier from the distance, even if he get a -20 DC modifier for the attack.
Sure a illusionary decoy could waste some spell. Naturally you need a spell that can simulate a 50-70' long and 30' large barge moving upstream or downstream and keep the spell up for 24 hours day.
And what you get is a chance that the wrong target is hit (I hope you aren't suggesting that you can hide the moving barge with an illusion).
The greatest threat to elves is a long war, which is what Razmiran is trying to do. Slow reproduction, a small number of craftsmen, low work ethic. Like any army, if they let off too many shots, if they don't have enough devoted to fletching in their economy, they could run low on arrows. Seems unlikely? Who is making the arrows? And will they really cut down the forests to make more defences, bows, arrows etc etc.
It is nice how you always fall back to "They are too lazy to do anything."
I can, because elven tactics are well known. They harp on about them often and repeat them against opponents, an un-wise act.
Wouldn't the war against the drow be the best forces the elves have available? Unless they want to lose against one of their most hated and committed enemies. Are you suggesting the militiaman is even higher than fourth level on average? Why is this so from a part-time soldier? Whom have they been defeating to get even higher? Why aren't elven adventurers the only real heroes of Golarion then? Because here on this board there is the assumption of elves being superior in levels. As I've said before, they psychology and philosophies work against really high level being common (get distracted easily, their emotions and memories strongly interfere in the day to day, don't favour hard work or struggling to achieve like a short lived human, learn slowly, are so confident only elves have mastery in everything) and that the high level actors would be solely of one class: they love to dabble and generalise, and the militia service can easily push one into being a bit of a jungle fighter and not purely focused in another area (like wizardry, social mastery, pure bard).
We can debate a lot what the AP authors had in mind when they wrote that module, but the elves in Celwynvian are actually fighting by themselves, without calling reinforcements from the other elven communities.
On the other hand the small contingent is capable to grant the PC in the adventure:
unlimited HP recover and unlimited uses of lesser restoration;
Several level 3 curative/restorative spells, each with 1d6 daily uses, the approximative equivalent of 8 level 5 spellcasters
1d3 restoration, so at least 2 level 7 spellcasters
All that beside what the elves will consume for their own troops healing.
Not exactly bad for a village with a population of less than 800 and his allies.
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I can, because elven tactics are well known. They harp on about them often and repeat them against opponents, an un-wise act.
Wouldn't the war against the drow be the best forces the elves have available? Unless they want to lose against one of their most hated and committed enemies. Are you suggesting the militiaman is even higher than fourth level on average? Why is this so from a part-time soldier? Whom have they been defeating to get even higher? Why aren't elven adventurers the only real heroes of Golarion then? Because here on this board there is the assumption of elves being superior in levels. As I've said before, they psychology and philosophies work against really high level being common (get distracted easily, their emotions and memories strongly interfere in the day to day, don't favour hard work or struggling to achieve like a short lived human, learn slowly, are so confident only elves have mastery in everything) and that the high level actors would be solely of one class: they love to dabble and generalise, and the militia service can easily push one into being a bit of a jungle fighter and not purely focused in another area (like wizardry, social mastery, pure bard).
2 words:
Game Balance
And if they are balanced, then they aren't actually as great as they, and many on this board claim.
They have been balanced, but other races have various thoughts on their own superiority, and those ideas aren't proven through the rules either. For example, an orc is strong, but they aren't the strongest thing around, stories on their strength can easily exaggerate. The orc also has their weaknesses, as does the elf. We seem to be better discussing the issue now. I have been trying to illustrate the way elves are balanced and have their weakness, on a personal character to character basis and as a culture in the macro of Kyonin for many pages now. I am glad we can agree they have been balanced. That the presentation of elves is not balanced is one of the first gripes I had with the elves of golarion book. No race is that good, that perfect, that skilled but also with so many flaws in national character.
Razmir the old codger has created a significantly powerful state in a single lifetime (what elf has done that?), and set up a hierarchy to manage the affairs of the state. It is an association of various grades and ranks. It will survive him, and there must be a Razmir or the game of Razmiran, and state and the all the dippings into the pie, will fall apart.
On second darkness and the elves, healing spells or any low level spells are never unlimited. If there aren't many elves in the area, then the elven clergy itself will be drastically limited and the availability of healing likewise limited (unless you are now saying all 800 elves are rangers AND wizards AND clerics now?). Nothing is unlimited (except cantrips in core, what a sad departure from the 3 and 3.5 rules) even in fantasy the rules exist.
A good day to you Diego, and fruitful points to be expressed as the days go on.
You think there are not elves in Kyonin who couldn't go out and found a nation somewhere like one idiot human false god?
You're just sinking yourself deeper and deeper. Come on.
Oh, that 13th level caster cost you two of your barges, and your most elite strike team managed to take him out before the elven rangers waxed them in turn.
Tomorrow, he's resurrected, and your strike team isn't.
The Elves don't fight in the plains and mountains unless there's clear reason to do so.
You harp on about trees and dense foilage. YOU HAVE THE WRONG FORESTS IN MIND. Quit thinking young forests with trunks 5 feet apart, and bushes everywhere. Old forests have trunks dozens of feet apart, and choke off the sun...there is little ground foilage. Firing lanes can be extremely long, and elves have twice the distance at it of invaders.
Your whole argument seems to be "I'll just throw my high level guys at the elves, and the elves will die because they are stupid and they suck." Except the elves will counter with their own high level guys, and on a numeric basis for population, they've got a ton more then you do. Every tactic you are going to spring on them they've seen before. Every enemy you throw at them they've probably fought before...that is the advantage of TIME and EXPERIENCE (not just levels).
Your argument seems to be that because of their idiosyncracies and racial tendencies, elves cannot learn, don't talk to one another, and have no sense of self-preservation whatsoever.
I find it breaking down really bad.
And btw, most published game worlds give the elves levels over opponents because of the time/age thing. THe Valenar in Eberron average level 4-6 for their 'bottom' troops, while elite human forces avg f/2. And this is a world that just came out of World War I. If you want to scale up the threat, Valenar are perfectly happy to test themselves against you.
Your job isn't to poke holes in the game logic, your job is to make the setting fit what it needs to do. If you believe the elves are so weak one hopped up false god can wipe them away tomorrow, then DO IT in your game and quit trying to convince us that's the case in ours, because we don't believe it.
==Aelryinth
Isolationism means not taking chances, not pushing your culture and people outwards, instead holding on to old territories. Isolationism is tied to the rejection of the world outside of the isolationist balwark.
The "idiot" has actually proven quite successful. But I don't think Razmiran by itself has the numbers of expertise to take down Kyonin. No, what would doom the elves would be a coalition of offended parties, with serious risk and investment to push the fragile elven economy to breaking point, and cause irreplaceable losses, strain supplies of essentials etc. The way the elves conduct diplomacy, their xenophobia make coalitions against them likely in the medium term.
In elites versus elites, victory for either side is never certain. It depends what is brought to the game, it depends who is involved. You keep claiming elves are higher level, and we don't seem to see eye to eye on that. Age for me does not give levels, application, success and risk gives levels in combat classes. A wizard or druid could study all his life, but I'm not sure he would qualify to get to level 13. How are the hit points and improved bab explained? Talking about elven strike teams, second darkness did give some examples, I found them personally a bit weak and slow to damage opponents (and also slow to reinforce each-other on the battlefield or help the party). Ranger/rogues can be alright, but they sometimes lack a bit of punch, ac is low, mobility isn't as good as say barbarians or monks (or cav if it has the room to move).
He's resurrected tomorrow? The high level could indeed possibly be resurrected, if the body is rescued. If there is a battle on the river or on a bank and the elves lose, assuming you use something like war machine (a very nice mass combat system from second ed), then they are pushed back. Opponents might snatch the wizard or druid, to prevent raising. Every high level character is an important figure in a war after all.
On firing lanes, look to the elves of golarion cover or page 2. There are a lot of things in the way of shots, those large trees will really hamper the ability to shoot someone on the other side (note it is actually showing a combat that has gone into melee, a frequent occurence in dense forest combats), the scrub on page 2 looks real thick (and the elves standing on the tree branches stick out). On page 2, forest mist would mess the visibility of both sides. You keep saying they can see twice as far, but if visibility is say, 60 in a dense forest (or possibly even 30 with mists) it doesn't matter whether you have low light or not. You have to get close to see, and crossbowmen have perception too you know (for war machine I found supported plentiful medium crossbowmen with moderate acs did quite well against elven skirmishers).
My argument does not fixate on high levels. Elites have their place, but most armies of any race are not level 6-10, unless you are dealing with the most hardened of elite troops, which I don't consider the elven militia to be, since the part-time soldiers haven't fought enough (the trick is you have to leave your forest and go looking for wars and battles, you know, like experienced mercs or hellknights or eagle knights). Being outnumbered is signficant, or casualties coming from serious investments of troops is what would damage the long lived elves. They don't have the diamonds in their non-mining culture to raise many, even if the corpses were recovered. Funnily enough, Druma actually is a mining power. Stronger economic strength means more money for merc if money is put to that purpose.
Most published game worlds is not the subject of this discussion. Golarion elves have their own flavour and characteristics which pertain to what we are discussing. My argument is that they are not all commandos with the perfect skill sets to win all battles. Even if they were all commandos, their pop isn't that high, and commandos aren't great in all situations (out in an open field for instance). All elves are part of the militia. The society is not all rangers, or even rangers and high level spellcasters solely. You will get experts, aristocrats, plenty of commoners, some rogues etc etc. Consequentially militias have a problem against professionals, or better equipped divisions (yes, if a troop type is designed to counter the common elven bowmen, then they are technically better equipped than what you have). Shields and chain can limit the number of arrows penetrating, smoke-sticks can lower the visibility of would-be snipers drastically. If the old forests have space to shoot, and long firing arcs, then light to medium cav can use this to their advantage and get some charges in. My most central point, is that you can't have it all.
Lastly on this "The Elves don't fight in the plains and mountains unless there's clear reason to do so".
Then in the event of an invasion of these areas, the borders no longer belong to the elves. Fight or lose territory and have you borders compromised and re-arranged, that is how war goes. Your love of elves presents a point, the elves may indeed lose territories if they are not fighting in the forests where they feel confident.
Furtermore, these hills are rich in minerals, the nearby regions have made Druma rich. Wealth taken out of the ground can fund more mercenaries, more expansion and more pressure upon the elves.
1) Isolationism means minimizing dealings with foreign cultures, no more, no less. Japan did the same thing...they stagnated in advancement, but it is considered the 'purest' stretch of Japanese history for their arts.
Elves already are way ahead of the curve as far as 'advancing'. They aren't worried about learning stuff from outsiders...outsiders have stuff to learn from them.2)That the idiot has proven successful doesn't mean that there aren't elves who couldn't do the exact same thing were they inclined to do so.
Elves don't have a fragile economy...kyonin is self-sufficient. You'd have a hard time blocking off their economy when EVERYONE wants to trade with them. Why? Because their economy is master artisans and magic, which is in the people, not the land.
The way they conduct diplomacy doesn't matter if people still want what they have to offer. In other words, they are dictating the terms of agreement. If elves wanted something from outsiders, there'd be more interaction. Sadly, we have little to offer them.
3) You don't need an entire body for resurrection, which is the point of using that spell...and it's level 7, so our 13th level guy's peer can cast it. He's back the next day, pissed and focused. You're also ignoring the fact he can kill the barge at range undetectably, at any time, and you've got to somehow stalk and kill a 13th level spellcaster in his native lands. Yeah, that's easy.
4) if the trees are big enough to stand on the limbs, there's ranged attacks possible. And sure, fights come to melee, if the snipers want to melee. Otherwise, it's just speed and stealth checks, and they are gone.
As for speed, Longstrider takes care of that, too...or expeditious retreat, even more effective, if they just don't haste a group of them for the escape.
5) Time. You keep ignoring TIME. You ignore tournament competition, which produces the best fighting people in the world today. You ignore the fact that in a world with healing magic, tournaments can be full contact with weapons and still not lethal. You ignore their competitive society. You ignore hundreds of years of experience. You ignore the fact that the elves have been attacked, and they've sent the enemies home crying for their mommies...so they are doing it right, and you keep saying that they are doing it wrong.
6) people are throwing diamonds at them for their magic. Wealth is very much not an issue. Send some elementals to fetch the things, if they have to. eesh. You're actually trying to make cost of material components an issue?!?
7)If you make a confrontation where the elves have no cover, no stealth, no ranged attacks, no magic...exactly why are the elves fighting on terrain lousy for them? Crossbowmen have crappy rate of fire, don't walk with xbows nocked, and 'support' is virtually impossible in broken formations and unfamiliar ground. I don't think I have to talk about the ability of longbows to punch through chainmail, and shields are only useful if you know where the attacks are coming from.
And as soon as you start turtling up behind shields, you get a fireball dropped on you. And armor makes you slow.
8) If you try and occupy territory the elves don't want to fight on, that doesn't mean they can't make you pay. They'll pick off your sentries, devastate your supply lines, run off any game in the area...and can break down your fortifications with magic faster then you can put them up.
And again, wealth is not the issue. Elves make oodles on trade if it becomes an issue. And it's not like you can cut the supply lines of a nation with Gates around half the planet, or even off-world.
So, eesh, get off your hate and make it work, quit trying to tear it down.
===Aelryinth
I'd "make it work" and accept the elven supremacy, but there are too many things that are wrong with the assumptions.
In response to:
1) This attitude is precisely why they are predictable and would be prone to over-confidence. They see themselves as the end of all expertise, and the whole of all knowledge. Going through what they could learn from others, where the strengths of other peoples or specialties lie, where elves are deficient:
a) Geban necromancy and its use of undead for agriculture.
b) Osirion mummy creation and grand tombs/cultural artificats on a massive scale.
c) Taldorian and Andoranean heavy cavalry, which the elves could put to good use in their plains. There is no indication they have any cavalry at all.
d) Exceptional Qadiran swordsmanship atop their horses (the mounted blade feat).
d) The discipline of Molthunian troops, the ideas and technologies behind the use of heavy infantry by many nations (such as Cheliax).
e) The survivability and toughness of River Kingdoms residents.
f) The trade practices and openness of the trade island Absalom.
g) The Nirmathan mastery of attacking while withdrawing, the elves are meant to be the masters of the hit and fade, but the young human rebels have actually got it better down pat. Elves can shoot and move away, but they can't shoot and double-move away.
h) The Aldori sword-style of Brevoy, where swordsmanship is not playful or derided by its elites (as it is by the elven wizards).
i) The automatons and artifacts of Numeria, of a tech level far higher than the elven 'natural' civilisation.
j) Rahadoumian godless healing, and their emphasis on civic participation instead of the low elven work ethic and the worship of elven deities that reinforce pride and certainty.
k) Razmiranian skill in intimidation and its merging into hand to hand combat.
l) The fusion of the barbaric and the watchful guard in the Ulfen guards who serve Taldor.
m) The increased abilities of Sargavans when fighting alone and without close support. Something that could really help the elves fighting in forests against many foes.
n) The mastery of ki classes (the monk, the ninja) which a chaotic people struggle to even enter or basically grasp due to alignment. Have you noticed the wizard is assumed superior to the ki user by the elven perceptions?
o) The superior strength and stronger offense of the orc tribes, the ogres, the trolls.
And there are many more.
2) On the Razmiranian project and elves, could’ve, would’ve, but haven’t. The elves have not gone in this direction, and there is also talk that this wizard is pushing enchantments and mind control into new areas and unlocking soul-altering powers. Pretty good for an old man of the short-lived races. I guess he was driven (not a common elven trait).
Elves do indeed have a ‘fragile economy’, as the text states. Greengold is doing very well, but I’ll let the text speak:
P. 21 ‘Economy
The elven population is small, and the percentage of it
interested in working and trading their wares to others
smaller still, driving up demand for exquisite, expensive
elven goods and creating a rich but fragile economy.
Kyonin’s agriculture is central to its isolated well-
being. The nation cannot become dependent on an
outside supplier for any necessity, and thus, no elf fails
to participate in growing something, even if it’s just an
act of impromptu gardening. In this way, elves maintain
an abundance of grains, fruit, and leafy vegetables year-
round, enough to feed Kyonin and occasionally export
delicacies to their neighbors at extravagant prices.
The human concept of “industry” is unknown in a land
where everything is crafted or grown as a loving work of
art. Though Kyonin’s output is significantly less than its
neighbors, the elves maintain comparable wealth thanks
to high demand for their quality products, particularly
their magic items. Elven craftwork is highly sought after
by members of other races, and Kyonin silversmiths are the
finest in the Inner Sea.’
Pros and cons, apparently the best silversmiths and artisans in this area, but there aren’t many of them, the emphasis on crafts is low as a percentage and therefore, output will be low (but highly demanded). They have not developed organised industry and this is something they could also learn from others who have. By this point I mean that since they don’t have industry, the availability of arms and arrows in a truly serious war could become very dire.
3) He cannot be raised if the body is taken, looted and destroyed. Harpoons work quite well on would-be destroyers on the shore, check them and give them a go. The druid cannot just wish a barge destroyed and for it to be so, spells require line of sight. Actions invite response, gank the mage is a common saying in games for a reason.
4) Elven speed is not higher than the human by default. To stop and shoot in difficult terrain slows down the hit and fade. Standing in trees is a good way to attract attention and get shot. Longstrider is damn good, but how to get a militiaman to that level? They don’t have a monopoly on its usage either, there are rangers in other races. Haste potions are available to attackers with funding as well. Do you see why I pointed to the importance of Drumas economy and investment in the best equipment for its elites?
5) There is no talk of an elven tourney culture on the feudal model (they don’t even have cav or favour heavy inf, so don’t expect to be masterful in these areas). Incorrect about lethality, to seriously fight is to risk death from crits or being hit soundly when on single digit hp. The elves don’t like deaths in duels, they prefer political machinations to hand to hand combat in feuds (again it is in the book). They fence as play and entertainment, but where is the talk of a real focus on swordplay, and many feats put to making it excellent? If the feats aren’t put there, if they are in archery, or gardening or any of the many other elven generalisations, then the sword-work isn’t that good. It is always all about choice, and the elves prefer the ranged over the close, which is why they are very weak there (and why you Aerl try to say, no, they can always escape hand to hand, but they could dominate in anyway!).
By hundreds of years an elf is starting to get very frail, check the age rules, they look beautiful forever, doesn’t mean their physical stats don’t go down. The Razmiranian raiders still remain to be sent home crying.
6) Wealth does not equal an eternal availability of diamonds. Elementals are not an infinite resource (spam elementals lol) and are required present to keep Molthune in check. Cost of components is significant if raiding increases and moderate to high levels start dying. They are not the miners dwarves are.
7) On terrain and war, you don’t always get to fight where it is best for you. If you are outmanoeuvred this is especially true. Unfortunately, in a quasi-feudalism the orders may indeed come through to take a nasty position of dug-in humans or demi-humans. Crossbowmen can walk with crossbows ready to fire, my players do it all the time (it weakens the mechanism over time). Support is very much possible with team-feats (miniatures hand-book) or with a shield-wall, schiltrom, box formation etc. Longbows can indeed get through chainmail, still got to roll though, now we see how good the militia is with every shot made (or which shot is stopped, a well equipped warrior can easily get up to 17 ac, no problems). Use rapid shot and the ability to get over that ac goes down. On the use of fireball, using fire magics in the elven forests doesn’t like the elves or very wise. Fires can get bigger than even druids can control.
8) All these claims and tactics require successes. Sentries can shoot back, rouse their own skirmisher teams, feign routing and send others to encircle as the archers advance. Go prone to lessen archery casualties. Lock and bar doors and shoot out of shooting slits. To break down fortifications again requires line of sight, the wizards to be on the battlefield and away from their cosy advisory jobs in the capital. Dead wizards means potentially lost spellbooks and new weapons/funds for the enemy. Lose Greengold, lose a lot of wealth, and the only open trade port.
On the gates, read what is written. They don’t all work, they don’t know where they all are, or how all function. Many of the items required have been lost over time. The gates are also not geo-politically current.
Yes, the elves can flee off-world, again...
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Isolationism means not taking chances, not pushing your culture and people outwards, instead holding on to old territories. Isolationism is tied to the rejection of the world outside of the isolationist balwark.
The "idiot" has actually proven quite successful. But I don't think Razmiran by itself has the numbers of expertise to take down Kyonin. No, what would doom the elves would be a coalition of offended parties, with serious risk and investment to push the fragile elven economy to breaking point, and cause irreplaceable losses, strain supplies of essentials etc. The way the elves conduct diplomacy, their xenophobia make coalitions against them likely in the medium term.
The USA were politically isolationist till the WWII and they still managed to open Japan to commerce, control the Philippines, participate in WWI and have a strong commercial relationship with all the world.
You speak of the "superiority complex" of the elves and how that will make other people disliking them. Perfectly acceptable.
But Druma suffer from the same problem: merchants that will gladly take all your money and at the same time refuse to touch you, constantly wearing white gloves to avoid touching the infidels.
Razmir sent out "clerics" to force conversions in the nearby lands.
We can find plenty of example of people to hate, the elves don't stand out in a particular way.
From a game mechanics logic the elves would have higher levels than the average human, with a large percentage of high level characters, but for game balance that tendency has been cut short. In the past giving them a level cap lower than humans, today giving contrived reasons why they increase in level at a slower pace.
Your position is to take those reason for a slower but not crippling pace and translating them as "this is crippling, there is no chance they can live this way".
The writers mean them to be "non crippling" and only stretching the meaning of the words to the limit and beyond it is possible to get to yours position.
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It is interesting how you "forget" again and again some detail.
Your harpoons can hit a 7th level druid at 680'? (range of control water at level 7)
You can even see him, especially as he can be anyone of the tiny birds or squirrels perching on one of the trees in within that range?
Or your guys will try to kill all tiny animals they can see to be sure? Speak about using countless ammunitions.
He can even be one of the different fish, amphibious or reptiles in the water.