I've recently started GMing a once-a-month Pathfinder game with five players who have never played a tabletop RPG before and I'm getting frustrated.
A little background for me: I've played D&D in some form or another regularly for 15+ years and I love playing. I've mostly been a player but have done a little DMing. I haven't gotten to play in about 2 years though. This is my first time getting to play Pathfinder.
Of my five players, only one of them actually seems to care about learning how to play the game. The others expect me to teach them everything and remember everything. I have a good head for the rules but I have found that I simply cannot remember every relevant rule (and what has changed from D&D 3.5) that applies to all five players (Cleric, Sorcerer, Rogue, Ranger, Monk).
I've asked them to help me out by reading some of the rules. I haven't asked them to read the entire core rulebook or anything and I even mostly kept them away from the APG.
I've asked the Ranger, Monk and Rogue to help by reading the combat section and I've asked the Cleric and Sorcerer to read through the parts of the Magic section that apply to divine and arcane spellcasters respectively.
I've asked them all to read their class/racial abilities and feats so that they know what they do.
The only one that will actually work with me on this is the Sorcerer player. The other four don't read any of the rules, they do spontaneously stupid things like walking off down the hall of a dungeon by them self, have conversations when I'm describing what is happening or during other players turns and then wonder why they don't know what is going on and then argue with each other about what they should be doing. And the amount of metagaming is insane.
Is there anything I can do to keep their attention or garner more interest in the rules? Is it even feasible for one experienced player to teach five people how to play this game without help? I've never played in a game with more than one new player in it and I feel like I'm in over my head.
1) Play more often ~ it's hard for players to remember what their characters can do and what the plot is week to week, month to month would make it really hard.
2) Character Sheets: When people make a character sheet, have them look up their abilities and make a cheat sheet.
3) Start low - that way their are less abilities and such.
4) Find out why your players are playing, and tailor your plot so that they are interested.
5) Instead of telling them what their abilities do, make them look them up.
That's all I can think of off the top of my head.
DrDew,
I'd say that it's time to sit down with your players and have a heart to heart about whether or not they really want to play. Simply put, gaming is a two way-street and a successful campaign requires effort on both the part of the players and the DM. I see nothing wrong with you requiring them to actually read the core book, especially the stuff that is pertinent to their characters. After all, they are expecting you to do that and much more.
If it simply the fact that they're overwhelmed by the rules you could have a session which simply covers the rules, including some mock encounters. This would allow them to gain a good understanding of the rules without harm to their characters. And, you'll be able to focus on the roleplaying more than rules in later sessions.
like_a_god
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The only one that will actually work with me on this is the Sorcerer player. The other four don't read any of the rules, they do spontaneously stupid things like walking off down the hall of a dungeon by them self, have conversations when I'm describing what is happening or during other players turns and then wonder why they don't know what is going on and then argue with each other about what they should be doing. And the amount of metagaming is insane.
Many of these actions such as metagaming, not paying attention and doing stupid things is i think a common occurrence for many gaming groups no matter how new they are to it. Trying to limit these behaviors by your own actions is prob the best way to go with it.
Maybe something like never repeating your self, to make sure they are listening, harsh death rules for if they die stupidly and maybe an RP reward point system like i use to stop metagaming. I grant points to players based on their good RP and take them away when they metagame, cheat or RP badly. They can spend the points on a list of things i created such as some feats, RP involved skills and custom items.
As for getting them to read the books, its a tough one. Maybe introduce them to a wider range of cool actions they can perform through demonstrations by npcs and enemies. When they want to use them perhaps have a rule that only allows players to use their abilities if they know how it works. Maybe to use an ability make them open the book go to the page and read the rule to you upon the action. This slows things down but might help for awhile to get people used to the rules.
My advice is newbies should never be casters. Its just too much to take on when you don't even fully know the basics. Ease them into things by just playing modules that aren't linked and don't worry about the game world too much.
I used to work in a store that ran games for newbies and I always found the best way was to make first gamers be pregenerated characters that were either barbarians, rogues, rangers or fighters. Fairly simple classes really. Run a few modules with them to get them used to basic combat and skill checks. As you progress through the low level modules start adding in the different combat maneuvers and enemy casters to get them used to how caster rules work.
After they've got to about level 5 I'd get them to start over again by add in some casters to the pregen character mix as options for people to take. Then run through the modules for a bit to get people used to having casters about.
Then do a normal campaign, but accept that they'll still be learners.
chavamana 1) That makes sense and it has crossed my mind that it might be easier if we played more often. Time is a problem though. I'd like to play more often. I used to play once a week. Will probably be easier once we sell our house and move into town.
2) Check. Made my own character sheets. Even room for short notes for what their stuff does.
3) Started at 1st
4) I have found out today that 4 of them are only playing to socialize and probably don't even care what game they're playing.
5) Yeah, trying to get them to read.
like_a_god
I'd say that it's time to sit down with your players and have a heart to heart about whether or not they really want to play.
Yeah my wife suggested the same thing.
If it simply the fact that they're overwhelmed by the rules you could have a session which simply covers the rules, including some mock encounters. This would allow them to gain a good understanding of the rules without harm to their characters.
I did one mock fight that took place as a dream with their characters. Think I should do a couple more?
Sigil87 I found myself taking it easy on them because they're new at it even though they got into a situation that was too tough for them. Think I should just take the soft suit off and let 'em have at it?
Maybe to use an ability make them open the book go to the page and read the rule to you upon the action.
I'll probably do this.
BQ Currently, I have them doing Expedition to Undermountain and have been trying to motivate them through dreams of the place. Instead of this method of pointing them in a direction, perhaps I should be more direct and just say "You've been hired to do this." or "You hear a scream and when you follow the sound you come to a cave." I have found that they have problems as a group if I leave anything open ended.
Shorter, more direct, encounters might be a better idea.
It does sound like a lot for one person to teach. See if you can get another veteran to join and help lead by example.
Stupid question...what is metagaming?
1) Stop expecting n00bs to game like pros
Never expected pros. Just to have a little more motivation to learn how to play.
2) Find out why they are gaming. Use that to get them more interested.
Definitely going to discuss this one next session.
3) How old are they? (Expect people to act their age, or younger :) )
20-25. Expecting too much from that group? :D
4) Most people hate reading, and even you cant remember all the rules; your the pro. Have a night where you run simulations to show them the options they can use, and how to do them. they wont remember right, but it will encourage them to look it up.
Seems simulations and/or small encounters is probably the way to go.
5) Like BQ said, pre-gen is your friend for n00bs; especially PC gamers, as it sounds like these are. Be ready to spoon feed them a lot until they get used to the difference between computer RPG and table-top.
Ok. I may end up creating a bunch of melee characters for them then and just running them through random adventures. I think I've just been playing these games too long with experienced players to remember what it's like.
Anyone have any suggestions for simple, pre-made adventures? Preferably free or cheap?
My suggestion is put them in interesting roleplay situations and make them roleplay them.
Have someone pick on one of their races "I don't like elves much." But make it known that fights in this place usually end up in jail time.
Have a woman accuse one of them of being the father of her child.
Have a male NPC become desperately attracted to another male player.
Have a NPCs family member murdered and evidence seems to point to someone another PC was friends with.
Do some funny/crazy/surprising roleplay twists to get them into the story....THEN work on learning the rules with them step by step.
The first step is get them sucked into the story and wrapped up in their characters and that is thru good roleplaying and interesting plot twists.
Stupid question...what is metagaming?
Metagaming is using information to make decisions that your character would not know.
Discussing your tactics in the middle of a fight.
Telling another player that their character shouldn't do X because my character is going to do Y and it will work better if he does Z instead.
Trying to get information from the DM that their character wouldn't know like how tough the monster is or how damaged it is. Or asking "where's the treasure?"
The DM had us make a perception check, get ready, something is up!
That kind of stuff.
Another idea would be to have an experienced player amongst them to act as party leader. Typically newbies will defer to the experienced player and it works as long as that player isn't too bossy. If you do it make sure that player understands their role is to guide as much as to direct. Was very effective when we ran games to teach kids how to play.
Thanks for the responses, everyone. This has helped.
Another idea would be to have an experienced player amongst them to act as party leader. Typically newbies will defer to the experienced player and it works as long as that player isn't too bossy. If you do it make sure that player understands their role is to guide as much as to direct. Was very effective when we ran games to teach kids how to play.
This was my wish when I was looking for a group. No experienced players were available though so I'm stuck with the noobs. :D
I considered a DM PC if the group was smaller but with a group of 5 already, I feel like it would be one extra thing to keep track of.
You might also try them on a simpler game for them to get the concepts down then ease into the mechanics. I run a plethora of games, from Labyrinth Lord to Barbarians of Lemuria to Call of Cthulhu to Pathfinder and the basic ideas are all the same for these games, but the mechanics of a game like Barbarians of Lemuria are much simpler for new players to grasp then jumping into a more advanced game like Pathfinder. Don't get me wrong, I am NOT knocking Pathfinder, I love it, but it isn't a game for a new person to just leap into that has never played a tabletop rpg and there is no concept that you can introduce in a game like Barbarians of Lemuria that you cannot port over to Pathfinder and vice versa, I do it all the time.
the group I run for weekly is like this (we're the same age group too), we got a salesman, a veteran from a real war, and my bro who was a 3.5 juggernaught, but now has a GF so he spends 0 time outside the game...thinking about the game.
I run the game because I love it and been doing it for years. There is a part of me that wishes i was playing "real pathfinder" where the players have actual characters, and goals for them, and clever RP ideas, and tactics. But, I know once the game hits a point where i can throw in a demon with greater teleport at will, they will all die because no one is going to look up in the book a way to counter. My solution? Have fun with what we got. We have a monk, a paladin, and a fighter. They will fight goblins and giants till the campaign is over. It's just how it is, but we have fun. Don't pester them "read the rules guys!" or w.e. It won't work, and you guys are all adults, if they really cared they would have asked to borrow the book or something already.
p.s.
My veteran friend flat out hates reading, but he's getting deployed again...so I'm gonna give him a copy of the PHB. =P I know he reads over there. Ah well.
Some things that I’ve done or seen done that may help…
Don’t use all the rules: Throwing out things like flanking, attacks of opportunity, and feats/abilities/traits that are situational (e.g. make fighter’s Bravery a flat Will bonus instead of only vs. fear effects). Just make sure the players are aware that they are playing PF light. It is somewhat counter-intuitive because you fear having to retrain bad habits later, but in my experience people are familiar enough with the concept of easy vs hard mode that this is not a problem.
Make combat/spell cards: There is a lot of stuff on a character sheet. Having index cards helps players feel that even if they don’t know what their modifiers are, or what exactly their spells are/do, they at least know where to find that info.
Pace character advancement with player comfort: Don’t give out XP. Only have them level when most of the group gets comfortable with the rules relevant to their characters at the level they are they are at. I discovered magic items with uses are a good gauge of when a player is ready for the next level. Once they seem competent with their first level abilities, thrown in a wand or a sword that only ‘flames’ for 5 rounds/day. If they start struggling again, they are not ready for second level yet.
Reduce the spell lists and DM accordingly: Instead of ‘here is a whole chapter of spell options. I hope you pick the right ones!’, say ‘here is a list of five spells that I know will be useful and I’m eliminating the need for spells not on this list – pick the 3 you like.’
Get rid of the idea that reading the books is going to teach them: It’s not. The books are a reference-resource, not a how-to guide.
Don’t use published adventures: This group won’t have a chance and by the time you properly adjust everything you may as well have homebrewed something.
Don’t give so much advice – pull punches instead: Unless something is going to OBVIOUSLY out-right kill a PC, let the player try anything. When someone does something like walk around alone, don’t tell them not to or insist that the most punitive possible thing happens to them because ‘it’s realistic’ and ‘actions have consequences’. Think of it like a children’s tale – you can have plenty of drama without every single suboptimal/stupid action ending in tragedy.
Call for skill checks: Take the onus off of the players to know when they should roll for knowledges and social skills. Ask if they want to sneak or tumble.
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Remember, only people with a special kind of crazy are going to invest the time/energy into learning so many rules before they can even try it to see if they are really THAT interested. It’ like insisting someone memorize a third of a vehicle’s repair manual before test driving it.
For beginning players, try putting corks on the forks.
This is reference to the movie (and Broadway musical) "Dirty Rotten Scoundrels". If the players do stupid stuff like wandering down a dark hallway without their armor on or looking at a numerically superior group that has the drop on them and insisting on charging into battle rather than taking cover or looking for alternatives to getting killed, you may have to child-proof your adventures for a little bit.
You could, of course, just kill their characters off whenever they do something dumb but -really- they're beginners. It's no fun to lose a character. Instead, give them consequences but plan for some consequences that aren't life-or-death but, instead, providing some challenges that encourage insightful role-play.
Also, you may want to work on your personal GMing style.
This came up in my own game a couple months ago. I was so intent on describing things, I drowned the players in adjectives and -as such- several of them missed crucial elements such as "there are at least a dozen enemies further up the hill, all of them with really excellent cover behind glacial boulders, and they have just fired warning shots down at you in such a way that you cannot obviously fight back." Trust me, my effusive descriptions really cost the players, here. The few that figured out they probably couldn't face the enemy in this scenario used things like invisibility or Hide to avoid the situation until they could figure out what to do next.
You may need to examine just how you are describing things to your players -either too much or not enough- and try modifying things a little.
Yours,
Sylvan (Dave)
Currently, I have them doing Expedition to Undermountain and have been trying to motivate them through dreams of the place. Instead of this method of pointing them in a direction, perhaps I should be more direct and just say "You've been hired to do this." or "You hear a scream and when you follow the sound you come to a cave." I have found that they have problems as a group if I leave anything open ended.
Shorter, more direct, encounters might be a better idea.
Yeah, there's your problem, I think. Undermountain is a long, very long, dungeon crawl that could bring even the more experienced groups to their knees.
With new groups (and specialy with new players), I found that shorter direct adventures with attainable goals each one or two games are most helpful in keeping the audience hooked.
Start with the basics... Protect the caravan; Track down that mysterious beast prowling around the farmlands; Find that missing child; Help the village fend off a kobold attack... You know...
Ultradan
I feel your pain. I'm introducing some guys to PF, and it's hard work. What I've learned so far:
Encourage simple classes. Fighter is an excellent class. Paladins and barbarians work well too. Rogues are a bit trickier, because skills often confuse people. Casters and the like are risky, because the players have to work with lots of new rules.
You need to be patient. Don't expect them to be huge roleplayers just yet. When I started playing, my brother had to explain nearly everything. Just relax and take it slow.
My suggestion is put them in interesting roleplay situations and make them roleplay them.
Have someone pick on one of their races "I don't like elves much." But make it known that fights in this place usually end up in jail time.
Have a woman accuse one of them of being the father of her child.
Have a male NPC become desperately attracted to another male player.
Have a NPCs family member murdered and evidence seems to point to someone another PC was friends with.
Do some funny/crazy/surprising roleplay twists to get them into the story....THEN work on learning the rules with them step by step.
The first step is get them sucked into the story and wrapped up in their characters and that is thru good roleplaying and interesting plot twists.
I disagree with most of this, I'm afraid.
It's a bad idea to stick them in roleplaying situations before they understand the rules. And a lot of these might be more likely to make the players uncomfortable. They need to understand the game before you start pressing them to interact with NPCs.Roleplaying is complicated, and these situations especially so. You have to start simple, in areas they're actually interested in. Forcing them to roleplay when they want hack-n-slash will just drive them away.
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RPG Superstar 2011 Top 32
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I've introduced five players new to RPGs to playing Pathfinder in the last year. At first, I tried to do too much, even going so far as to help write up characters.
When we started Carrion Crown, I stepped back a bit. I went through character creation step by step and made sure each person wrote down what they need to know. We used the Core Rulebook and APG and I didn't restrict anything but I channeled gothic horror.
When we level up, I again go through step by step so nothing gets missed. I also throw out suggestions a character might know that the player forgets.
My biggest draw, though, is my energy. I go nuts when we play. Combat is full of battle cries, and violent crits, and kinetic energy. Roleplaying is a little less crazy, but I talk in character directly to each player's characters and draw them out. I also ask them a lot what they want to do next. Nothing happens if they don't make it happen.
I'm having a lot of fun. The players appreciate my efforts where my last group of all experienced guys was a bit jaded. I work a bit harder during the game, but my satisfaction has gone way up with GMing since the new guys started playing.