Using the skill Use Magical Device with a staff activating it and emulating a rather high caster level resulting in what seems to be a game breaking highly powerful spell.
So the question is, can you use the skill Use Magical Device to not only activate the staff, but emulate the caster level at a very high level.
Just curious, thanks.
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Using the skill Use Magical Device with a staff activating it and emulating a rather high caster level resulting in what seems to be a game breaking highly powerful spell.
So the question is, can you use the skill Use Magical Device to not only activate the staff, but emulate the caster level at a very high level.
Just curious, thanks.
Use Magic Device has a list of what it is used for. Emulating caster level isn't on that list. Emulating a class ability is, but I'd suggest that caster level isn't a class ability. Emulating caster level is akin to emulating a large vocabulary instead of emulating an Intelligence score. So, it would be possible to emulate the class ability of spellcasting to activate an item that required that the user be a divine or arcane spellcaster. But, there is not an option to decide upon caster level via UMD.
Use Magic Device has a list of what it is used for. Emulating caster level isn't on that list. Emulating a class ability is, but I'd suggest that caster level isn't a class ability. Emulating caster level is akin to emulating a large vocabulary instead of emulating an Intelligence score. So, it would be possible to emulate the class ability of spellcasting to activate an item that required that the user be a divine or arcane spellcaster. But, there is not an option to decide upon caster level via UMD.Using the skill Use Magical Device with a staff activating it and emulating a rather high caster level resulting in what seems to be a game breaking highly powerful spell.
So the question is, can you use the skill Use Magical Device to not only activate the staff, but emulate the caster level at a very high level.
Just curious, thanks.
A staff uses the wielder's caster level, use magical device allows you to use staves, so what determines the caster level of the stave's abilities?
Okay thanks. This clears things up.
I realize this is an old thread, but it has some relevant information to my question. Does anyone else have a different opinion on the UMD + staff question? My reading of the rules disagrees with what's been said in this thread
Emulate a Class Feature: Sometimes you need to use a class feature to activate a magic item. In this case, your effective level in the emulated class equals your Use Magic Device check result minus 20. This skill does not let you actually use the class feature of another class. It just lets you activate items as if you had that class feature. If the class whose feature you are emulating has an alignment requirement, you must meet it, either honestly or by emulating an appropriate alignment with a separate Use Magic Device check (see above).
I would argue that a caster level is definitely a "class feature" of a casting class - if it's not a class feature, what else is it?
And the UMD description clearly indicates that you can activate items as if you had that class feature, but can't use the class feature otherwise. Which is within the bounds of what one is trying to do when using UMD.
Those taken together seem to indicate pretty concisely that staves can be used at higher caster levels via UMD.
I would say you can't since you are not emulating a caster level to activate the staff. You are emulating having a spell on your spell list. It functionally works the same as using a wand and even uses the same DC. So if emulating a CL of 10 doesn't activate the staff, I see no reason why it would activate the staff with an improved CL.
Lets say you have a Cleric of 10th Level.
He is trying to use Fireball from a Staff, but Fireball is not on Cleric's spell list.
If he uses UMD successfully to cast Fireball from the Staff, does he uses Fireball on his own caster level (10th) and applies his Wisdom to the DC of the Save?
Since you are considered to have Fireball on your class spell list it seems that you would in fact be able to use your WIS score with the staff. Since you are using UMD to use Fireball as if it were on your class spell list there is no reason you would not be able to use your own caster level. Unlike a non-caster you do in fact have a caster level.
The real question is can you use the Emulate an Ability Score to boost your casting stat higher than it actually is? The ability says that if you have a high enough score that you do not need to make this check. It does not say that you cannot make the check.
Once you UMD (use a staff) successfully, fireball is on your class spell list for the purposes of casting fireball through the staff. Use your caster level or that of the staff, whichever is higher, and use your class's relevant ability score for setting DCs and the like.
"Emulate an ability score" has nothing to do with staves--it only applies to the ability score prerequisite required to use a scroll. You can't emulate an ability score to get better use out of a staff any more than you can emulate having 20 Strength in order to lift a heavy boulder. (Note that having a higher than required ability score has no effect on the outcome of reading a scroll anyway--the spell always uses the minimum ability score required to scribe it.)
I don't really get the DC system of UMD here.
Activating a Fireball from a Staff will always be DC 20 and you can also add you own modifiers if higher than the default.
Activating a Fireball from a Wand will always be DC 20.
Activating a Fireball from a Scroll will be at minimum DC 25 if not higher in cases of Fireball scrolls with higher caster level.
I understand a scroll could be of 19th caster level for example and you could not activate it with just DC 20 UMD, but shouldn't this rule also apply for a Staff or a Wand? at least for the minimum Caster Level required.
Does this work with spell like abilities, AKA if my familiar uses Staff with UMD does she count the spell as being on her spell-like ability list and adds relevant score to the DC?
I don't really get the DC system of UMD here.
Activating a Fireball from a Staff will always be DC 20 and you can also add you own modifiers if higher than the default.
Activating a Fireball from a Wand will always be DC 20.
Activating a Fireball from a Scroll will be at minimum DC 25 if not higher in cases of Fireball scrolls with higher caster level.I understand a scroll could be of 19th caster level for example and you could not activate it with just DC 20 UMD, but shouldn't this rule also apply for a Staff or a Wand? at least for the minimum Caster Level required.
As spell completion items, scrolls are both cheaper and inherently harder to use than staves and wands.
Does this work with spell like abilities, AKA if my familiar uses Staff with UMD does she count the spell as being on her spell-like ability list and adds relevant score to the DC?
No.
I don't really get the DC system of UMD here.
Activating a Fireball from a Staff will always be DC 20 and you can also add you own modifiers if higher than the default.
Activating a Fireball from a Wand will always be DC 20.
Activating a Fireball from a Scroll will be at minimum DC 25 if not higher in cases of Fireball scrolls with higher caster level.I understand a scroll could be of 19th caster level for example and you could not activate it with just DC 20 UMD, but shouldn't this rule also apply for a Staff or a Wand? at least for the minimum Caster Level required.
I don't think you get spell DCs either. :-)
Fireball is a 3rd level spell, needing a minimum 13 stat to cast. Unless specially made, staves, wands, and scrolls are made at minimum spell level and caster level (with staves having a min caster level of 8 also).
DC = 10 + 2 (Stat modifier) + 3 (spell level) = 15.
The caster level has no effect on the DC.
If you have a higher stat modifier, and are using a staff, then, and only then, does the DC increase (baring special things).
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UMD can let you emulate a stat for things that need a minimum stat to use. It can likewise emulate a caster level for things that need a minimum caster level (such as a scroll(. It can even let you emulate a channel for things that need channel to activate.
However, this emulated ability only counts for being able to activate the item, but not using the item if it needs the emulated ability. Thus you can use that scroll CL 12 without a mishap if you emulate a CL 12 or better. But you cannot get CL 12 from the staff if you emulate CL 12 since you don't actually have it.
/cevah
Correct me if I'm wrong, K-C, but I assumed that "always be DC 20" et al. referred to the DC of the Use Magic Device check, not the spell being cast.
Whoops. Past edit time. I got mixed up on Spell DC vs. UMD DC.
K-C, sorry about that.
The UMD portion of my post above still applies.
/cevah
Correct me if I'm wrong, K-C, but I assumed that "always be DC 20" et al. referred to the DC of the Use Magic Device check, not the spell being cast.
Yeap!