a low charisma doesn't mean you have to be a rude jerk with a foul mouth
it can mean that you are extremely arrogant in the common case or an elf or noble of some kind. or even a japanese flavored samurai.
it can mean you are shy and don't do a good job of opening up to others. you still may have those very few you open up to in private. this allows you to roleplay silence.
it can mean you are a Rude foul mouthed S.O.B.
it can mean you have Aspergers or some other social skill hampering mental illness, like obscessive compulsive disorder.
it can mean you compulsively perseverate on your favored topic, whether it be object, person, concept, or anything. like how i compulsively create characters that look like young girls.
it can mean you have an aura that radiates creepyness.
heck, i have the bottom 3 parts of this list.
man, my charisma must suck horribly. no wonder i have to take 20 on diplomacy checks with everyone and still have a chance at failure.
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That character would be mildly mentally retarded with the personality of a cardboard box.But that's the great thing. Those issues don't come up in sessions, so I get to be the combat monster and not get penalized.
So, in other words, you want the benefits of dumping the stat, but god forbid the GM should put any RP penalties on you for being a mentally retarded cardboard box?
THIS is the attitude that drives me insane as a GM. People who want all the benefits but none of the penalties. You wouldn't have to quit my game, I'd kick your butt out.
+1
I run all of my games online using D20pro, and although I do allow people to dump stats like Int and CHA, I play up that character flaw ingame.I also put out my recruitment post saying "no power gamers or stat dumpers allowed"
I don't impose auto penalties. If you keep your mouth shut then you are fine, however I will have NPC's talk to you so thinking you will never have to speak and that will get you over is a mistake.
It's not an automatic penalty, it's just first impressions. If the player wants to roll it to see if he can make a better first impression, that's fine (he should put points into diplomacy, obviously).
It's just that if you have a 7 INT or 7 CHA (Or god forbid both, as shown earlier in the thread), you are going to sound like some of my cousins from the back woods. Some are very bright but they're ignorant and sound like extras on Deliverance. When you are confronted with 4 people, and one speaks like a used cars salesman, one speaks like a computer geek, one speaks like a mechanic, and one speaks like an extra off of Deliverance, which one are you going to write off?
Now, there might be occasions where that is actually useful (such as talking to a gutter rat to get information out of him), but in general, and especially when dealing with mayors, priests, guild reps, nobles, etc who might be giving you jobs, it's not.
Again, we're talking about how the world interacts with your character and perceives them. That's what your Charisma represents, how those around you perceive you. And your int represents how smart you are. Unless you have some skills, you can't fake being smart. It's easy to fake being dumb if you are smart, but nearly impossible the other way around.
A character with an intelligence of 7 is only 10% less likely to succeed on an intelligence-based check than a character with 10. If you're of a mindset to look at the number 7 and the resultant 10% deficiency in performance and insist that this character is unreasonably stupid then I think you're reading more into the system than is explicitly written.
Of course, a higher int character has more skill points, and thus potentially much more than 10% advantage in some areas, but at the same time, low-int Bards can outshine high-int Wizards in this regard... plus, the level of knowledge of an 8 int, 10th level Bard will crush that of an 18 int, 1st level Wizard... how someone who's below average can consistently outsmart a genius only makes sense if you accept that the base ability score is only partially meant to represent the character's potential, and even then in an abstract gaming sense. ("Yeah, I'm kind of a dope, but after the last two months of adventuring I've turned into a walking library somehow.")
I personally see flexibility in the concept of ability scores. If you exercise, you get stronger; indeed, if I were running a game and someone were playing a Wizard with 7 strength, if we were to inject a yearlong gap in the game's chronology, and rather than hammering out magical items the whole time, the Wizard asked if he could train to become an Eldritch Knight, I'd allow the player to redistribute some stats. In the same way, if a Barbarian felt called to hone her spirit on the path to becoming an Oracle, or if the Rogue wanted to take up academics and eventually become a Duelist, I'd allow all these things, because unless you're mentally handicapped, intelligence is as much a reflection of brain-exercise as it is of some innate personal quality.
That character would be mildly mentally retarded with the personality of a cardboard box.But that's the great thing. Those issues don't come up in sessions, so I get to be the combat monster and not get penalized.
So, in other words, you want the benefits of dumping the stat, but god forbid the GM should put any RP penalties on you for being a mentally retarded cardboard box?
THIS is the attitude that drives me insane as a GM. People who want all the benefits but none of the penalties. You wouldn't have to quit my game, I'd kick your butt out.
+1
I run all of my games online using D20pro, and although I do allow people to dump stats like Int and CHA, I play up that character flaw ingame.I also put out my recruitment post saying "no power gamers or stat dumpers allowed"
I'm pretty sure that he's saying that he shouldn't have to choose between being a hero who kicks ass and be mentally retarded or be mildly compentent at combat and have an average intelligence in a game where you are supposed to be a hero.
Most heroes I've seen are both mentally competant and excel at combat. Why can't mine be like that too?
a low charisma doesn't mean you have to be a rude jerk with a foul mouth
it can mean that you are extremely arrogant in the common case or an elf or noble of some kind. or even a japanese flavored samurai.
it can mean you are shy and don't do a good job of opening up to others. you still may have those very few you open up to in private. this allows you to roleplay silence.
it can mean you are a Rude foul mouthed S.O.B.
it can mean you have Aspergers or some other social skill hampering mental illness, like obscessive compulsive disorder.
it can mean you compulsively perseverate on your favored topic, whether it be object, person, concept, or anything. like how i compulsively create characters that look like young girls.
it can mean you have an aura that radiates creepyness.
Very good point. I'm so tired of people who take low CHA and do up the "I'm an a-hole dwarf!" bit.
I'd love an OCD dwarf who can't stop polishing his armor and weapons, even in the middle of peace talks or while at the orphanage, and has each item named, and talks to them when someone tries to talk to him.
Noble : Ah, so you're the fighter your friend Alamar was telling me about. Durgen Ironfist, yes? From the Reigan Clan?
Durgen : You hear that, Murgrin? He want's to know if I'm Durgen. Should I say yes? Alamar told me to keep my mouth shut. Murgrin! How'd you get that nick? Was it that stupid ogre yesterday? I'm so sorry! I didn't notice it!
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I don't allow point buy in my games. Specifically to avoid min/maxing. What you roll is what you get. I use 4d6 drop the lowest method. And if an ability score is 6 or less, i allow a reroll, but you MUST take the second result, even if it is worse.
A character with an intelligence of 7 is only 10% less likely to succeed on an intelligence-based check than a character with 10. If you're of a mindset to look at the number 7 and the resultant 10% deficiency in performance and insist that this character is unreasonably stupid then I think you're reading more into the system than is explicitly written.
Of course, a higher int character has more skill points, and thus potentially much more than 10% advantage in some areas, but at the same time, low-int Bards can outshine high-int Wizards in this regard... plus, the level of knowledge of an 8 int, 10th level Bard will crush that of an 18 int, 1st level Wizard... how someone who's below average can consistently outsmart a genius only makes sense if you accept that the base ability score is only partially meant to represent the character's potential, and even then in an abstract gaming sense. ("Yeah, I'm kind of a dope, but after the last two months of adventuring I've turned into a walking library somehow.")
I personally see flexibility in the concept of ability scores. If you exercise, you get stronger; indeed, if I were running a game and someone were playing a Wizard with 7 strength, if we were to inject a yearlong gap in the game's chronology, and rather than hammering out magical items the whole time, the Wizard asked if he could train to become an Eldritch Knight, I'd allow the player to redistribute some stats. In the same way, if a Barbarian felt called to hone her spirit on the path to becoming an Oracle, or if the Rogue wanted to take up academics and eventually become a Duelist, I'd allow all these things, because unless you're mentally handicapped, intelligence is as much a reflection of brain-exercise as it is of some innate personal quality.
Nah, Int is a raw potential of a character's reasoning ability, not his knowledge. A 10th level Bard is a much more worldly and experienced man than a 1st level wizard. Of course he is going to know many things this wizars wouldn't dream of. Even if the bard's int is 7 and the wizard's int is 18. That means that the bard has a much harder time learning new things and that he will know less than an equaly experienced genius level wizard.
So what if a character has high int, but doesn't use it? Geniuses go to waste every day. I have a friend who is a genius. He applied for mensa and has an IQ of 165. But he doesn't care, just lays about his house and plays video games. A brilliant mind gone to waste. it happend all the time.
stat dumping already has penalties. mechanical ones.
these penalties do apply, even if you do not go out of your way to target them every session.
you don't need to tack on further ones.
you don't need to tack on a perpetually nauseated condition on to a PC with 7 consititution. they already lost the hit points and fortitude bonuses they could have had.
why should we apply additional penalties on any other stat?
the mechanical ones are already there.
Does an 8 con on a magus count as dumping con to the OP? If so, check out my alias Nym Vallidorn. Playing in Carrion Crown now, we'll see how well it works out.
As a player I've dumped to the 7s before, but wont go there again unless I get a wild hair to play something weird. Intelligence is hardly ever a dump stat for me, and charisma is normally at least 10...but strength, con, and wisdom, in that order will take hits. I would say it's a fifty fifty mix of wanting some things to be lower so others can be higher, and making the character concept work. Nym for example, has a really high int and dex, and pretty low str and con. He's an educated gentleman who is more accustom to warding off street thugs or fighting a duel to first blood than bashing hobgoblin skulls in, so I think the stats make sense, and they get the bonuses I wanted.
As a DM I like to see a couple low stats in my party, though most people I play with lately want to spread everything out. I don't get too bent out of shape making sure everyone suffers for their stats, though I will keep an eye on how much gear the 6 strength halfling is toting around, or make note of charisma scores as various PCs interact with NPCs. One thing that has always confused me was the "you have a low intelligence, so you couldn't have come up with that tactic" mentality. To me intelligence has a lot to do with book smarts, so I could see using your intelligence to come up with a good plan...but some of the more tactically minded people I've known (we're talking warhammer and risk here, I don't know any high ranking military officers) have not been well educated. They've been experienced. Also, a good idea is a good idea, and I think good ideas should be rewarded.
stat dumping already has penalties. mechanical ones.
these penalties do apply, even if you do not go out of your way to target them every session.
you don't need to tack on further ones.
you don't need to tack on a perpetually nauseated condition on to a PC with 7 consititution. they already lost the hit points and fortitude bonuses they could have had.
why should we apply additional penalties on any other stat?
the mechanical ones are already there.
Yes, you are correct, there are mechanical penalties. Just the same as there are mechanical benefits that go with the stat they raised. The mechanical benefits balance each other out. The Role-play penalties and benefits do as well. Low scores aren't the only things with Role-playing opportunity. Sadly, people choose to let the rolls define their characters, instead of the roles. A high Str and low Int character, I could see trying to solve everything with Str, even the non-dicedecided outcomes.
I've seen 6 Charisma barbarians raise small armies due to some lucky rolls.
My personal stat arrays, before any modifications, often looks something like this:
18 14 14 12 10 07 <--- commonly used with SAD spellcasters, to pimp their DCs
16 15 15 14 10 07 <--- rarely used; great for physical characters like fighters, rangers, or paladins
16 14 14 14 10 10 <--- my favorite and most common choice for most any character
14 14 14 14 14 10 <--- least favorite; good for MAD classes sometimes like the magus or monk
And yes, we use 25-pt buy in our group.
stat dumping already has penalties. mechanical ones.
these penalties do apply, even if you do not go out of your way to target them every session.
you don't need to tack on further ones.
you don't need to tack on a perpetually nauseated condition on to a PC with 7 consititution. they already lost the hit points and fortitude bonuses they could have had.
why should we apply additional penalties on any other stat?
the mechanical ones are already there.
Then you don't get the other things either. You don't get RP bonuses for your stats. I don't have the barmaid like your character on first sight because you have an 18 CHA and she doesn't act friendly to you until you make a diplomacy check. I don't give the player playing an 18 WIS character a chance to change his mind when he's about to do something dangerous by asking "Are you sure you want to do that?". I don't give the guy with the 18 INT a chance to remember where he last saw that widget, nor do I warn him when he's doing something dumb by asking "Are you sure you want to do that?".
You can't have it both ways. You either have roleplay repurcussions for both good and bad stats, or you don't have them for either.
Yes, you are correct, there are mechanical penalties. Just the same as there are mechanical benefits that go with the stat they raised. The mechanical benefits balance each other out. The Role-play penalties and benefits do as well. Low scores aren't the only things with Role-playing opportunity. Sadly, people choose to let the rolls define their characters, instead of the roles. A high Str and low Int character, I could see trying to solve everything with Str, even the non-dicedecided outcomes.
My 6 CHA/14 WIS barbarian's solution to most interparty or PC/NPC non-combat interactions was to try diplomacy once, then yell at people until they did what he thought was best. Fortunately, I'm good at plans, and the barbarian had a 14 INT as well (I rolled really good except for that stupid 6). 18/16/16/14/14/6.
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You can't have it both ways. You either have roleplay repurcussions for both good and bad stats, or you don't have them for either.
I love it when I get that moment of understanding when reading a thread. Now I see that the reason I disagree with people that enforce roleplay penalties for dump stats is because I don't have roleplay benefits for high stats. Thanks mdt, that makes me feel better.
well, you got me there, but the stat bonuses could represent a lot of things too. i only intended to say that there should be no further mechanical penalties. roleplaying your dump stat is fine and the roleplay bonuses/penalties are a nice reward.
i'd like to see players come up with thier own ways to roleplay a low stat, but i'd like to see rewards on both sides for roleplaying your stats. especially creatively.
i don't like the idea of enforcing steriotypes on a stat, but if a player can find an interesting way to roleplay thier stat, positive or negative, there should be rewards of some kind. and challenges based on the character as a whole, not just that one stat.
tacking on reprecussions for the high/low stat is fine, as long as you go both ways, providing something interesting for both the high stat and the low. circumstances for both, in both the positive and negative varieties, for both sides of the coin.
If i were DMing a game for MDT and he brought in his O.C.D. dwarf who polished, named, and conversed with his armor, i would provide huge amounts of bonus XP for the creative roleplay.
here is my follow up to roleplaying a low charisma
ways to roleplay a high charisma (there might be some overlap)
most people tend to assume that 18 charisma means you are smoking hawt. i can think of a few ways to roleplay that 18 charisma as something other than smoking hot.
you have a supernatural charm that lets you compel people to accomodate your desires.
you are superhumanly polite and kind hearted and your aura radiates kindness
you are compulsively cheerful and people like the fact that you lighten the moods of those around you
your beauty is otherworldly and magical in nature
you are a skilled politician who can inspire the people around you
despite what other flaws you may have, people tend to like you and find those flaws to be endearing.
and Dumping stats comes with another downside, the percieved inability to participate in certain parts of the game.
i beleive that even the stat dumped PC should have a chance to contribute something to that part of the session. even if it's just a minor aid another check.
I like the 15 pt buy and if I am running the show, no more than one stat at 8 pre racial adjustment... I wince every time I see players rock up with characters with two stats of 7.
then you must have rejected a lot of monks.
I love it when I get that moment of understanding when reading a thread. Now I see that the reason I disagree with people that enforce roleplay penalties for dump stats is because I don't have roleplay benefits for high stats. Thanks mdt, that makes me feel better.
You can't have it both ways. You either have roleplay repurcussions for both good and bad stats, or you don't have them for either.
LOL
There's your sign. ---> [EUREKA!]
:)
Even the greatest of heroes, perhaps the greatest even more so, have their tragic flaws. This has been iconic since Homer. That's probably the best perspective to bring to stat allocation, roleplay and optimization need not be mutually exclusive and our group, for one, works very hard at both.
Even the greatest of heroes, perhaps the greatest even more so, have their tragic flaws. This has been iconic since Homer. That's probably the best perspective to bring to stat allocation, roleplay and optimization need not be mutually exclusive and our group, for one, works very hard at both.
Except most classical examples are tragic because of flaws of character ie pride or arrogance, not because they have low CHA or INT.
If i were DMing a game for MDT and he brought in his O.C.D. dwarf who polished, named, and conversed with his armor, i would provide huge amounts of bonus XP for the creative roleplay.
I always give XP for roleplaying. I also give XP for anyone who, in character, makes the entire table shocked silent in awe (from how good they did) or laugh so hard they have to stop the game (as we are here to enjoy ourselves).
In a recent game I was playing in (not running), my character was trying to get a warforged into stage coach without paying extra for him as cargo.
Me : "Oh, that's just Tyne. I know he looks big and scary, but he's harmless."
Tyne : "I'm not harmless."
Everyone :
Me : "Ok, we'll pay the cargo price for him." "That'll be an extra 20 gold pieces, please have exact change."
Tyne : "That's all I got...."
Me : "Good, then you can afford to travel with us! Isn't that a great thing! C'mon ya'll, let's get loaded up! Tyne's traveling on top with the luggage!"
most people tend to assume that 18 charisma means you are smoking hawt. i can think of a few ways to roleplay that 18 charisma as something other than smoking hot.
I don't. I assume you have a combination of multiple things that makes you naturally charismatic. Some have more physical beauty, some have a natural force of personality, other's have an inner glow about them. It's usually a combination of the three, although rarely evenly split.
On the other hand, if you want to play your character as smokin hawt, that's fine too. Just expect to be hit on a lot.
Even the greatest of heroes, perhaps the greatest even more so, have their tragic flaws. This has been iconic since Homer. That's probably the best perspective to bring to stat allocation, roleplay and optimization need not be mutually exclusive and our group, for one, works very hard at both.
And that's perfectly fine. Like I said earlier, if you're roleplaying the stats, then that's fine. It's only a problem when people want the mechanical benefits (other stats boosted) but none of the downsides or roleplaying repercussions.
Personally, I usually have a lower stat on my characters. Most of my games are point buy. I do it simply because I can put a higher score in something that I'll actually use. I've never dumped more than one stat at a time, and rarely lower than eight.
Usually Charisma gets the short end of the stick. Strength might, if I'm of a class that doesn't plan to hit things in melee. Dexterity is okay to dump for some characters, but it governs more than the first two. I have never dumped Intelligence for a character in a long-term game - I like skill points, for one. But really, who wants to be stupid? I've flirted with dumping Wisdom on more than one occasion, but I haven't done it yet, because penalizing your Will save is, well, foolish. Still, I think Wisdom is by far the most interesting dump stat to play.
I have never dumped Constitution. I don't plan to ever do so, but things happen.
I don't allow point buy in my games. Specifically to avoid min/maxing. What you roll is what you get. I use 4d6 drop the lowest method. And if an ability score is 6 or less, i allow a reroll, but you MUST take the second result, even if it is worse.
Now this is an interesting perspective. I don't quite see how this prevents min-maxing. Surely, 4d6 drop the lowest does lead to generally good ability scores. But if the fighter rolls two scores below ten, are you shocked if he puts them in Intelligence and Charisma?
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speaking of Dump Stats, I've been playing as a kobold barbarian and a Goblin Paladin recently, both SORELY unoptimized, and I've had to dump stats just to make things WORK, let alone try and OPTIMIZE.
And our DM isn't a slouch either. We routinely get CR+3-4 encounters. That's the NORM. Heck, my poor Kobold is in the running for the first party member to 1k damage (we're sitting at 300 points by level 5 atm).
That said, I really love those characters. The stats are ABYSMAL, but it makes things really interesting. Now, keep in mind, I'm also the kind of player that always has a least 16 Strength for his martial characters starting off. But stats tend to not be as important as people make them out to be. I've regularly done well in combat with both characters, and my goblin has turned into one HECK of a tank/healer for the group, with his spellcasting making up for his damage penalty (Evasion has saved our Rogue from several Burning Hands spells :P).
That said, I don't believe in giving my players special treatment as a DM, no matter what the ability scores. What I DO is have plenty of skill checks to determine things. Trying to convince that farmer that you actually CAN do the job? Social check. Your choice. Trying to impress the local guards? Physical Ability check. I do stuff like that all the time, and, when mixed with roleplaying things it, it makes my job as a DM a breeze (crappy roll? He may go along with you, but he's gonna do so grudgingly).
I also think that "never taking a score with a penalty" is just as bad[/b] as dumping a stat.
I mean really all your characters are at least average if not [i]better at everything? Every time? Not once do you have to contend with a deficiency, never have had a guy that is a bit shy and has to think of what to say before putting his foot in his mouth? Never had a character that maybe should have made a trip to the gym (or was too sickly to go)? Never had a smart smartarse that should have known to keep his mouth shut but couldn't (low wisdom) or didn't have the common sense to come in out of the rain (as the saying goes)?
It just strikes me as just as gamist to never have a 'dump' stat at all as to have an extreme dump every time.
Dump stats can produce some of the greatest roleplaying opportunities. In fact, one of my favorite characters was a flawed as you can get. Tazzenkaf was a high level wizard/alienist in an all drow campaign that took place in the Forgotten Realms. After racial adjustments, his stats were Str 8, Dex 19, Con 6, Int 20, Wis 7, Cha 5. He was weak and constantly sick, not to mention completely insane. He had strange obsessive/compulsion behaviors, several phobias (including insects, which was tricky to get around in a colture that values arachnids), and was a severe germaphobe; he was constantly cleaning everything in sight, especially people. His horrible stuttering (yes, I actually stuttered) prevented him from engaging in conversation with anyone other than his pseudonatural toad familiar.
Tazzenkaf was a complete mess, mechanically. He couldn't carry equipmnt without the aid of magic, had low hit points, no common sense or willpower, and the social skills of a toddler. But he was great fun. Before we ended the game, he had hit 15th level, so despite his numerous flaws, he was a force to be feared.
I personally give myself a negative somewhere, just to have an flaw. I mean yes I am supposed to be the hero, but having a flaw, not being perfect, is fun to me.
My summoner has a Wis of 7. He is absentminded as all hell and has a "open mouth insert foot" problem. This is mitigated generally (the open mouth issue) by his charm, but it doesn't stop him from being an absentminded professor.
The only stat I would be wary of dropping is CON, but I would give it a shot IF it fit the concept I was going for.
I build for Concept first (but I always try to have a 16-18 in my primary class stat for playability)
i may take penalties to a stat to increase another for the purpose of class optimization. but i rarely take more than a single stat of 7, and i provide a bit of fluff behind that 7.
i have a fetchling bard with 7 constitution and 9 strength in a PBP that is currently in the middle of a long break. her 4th level stat point gave her an 8 constitution. she started 5th level.
i try to roleplay her as a sickly anemic weakling, but she is actually a decent dancer, so i couldn't dump dexterity, because she is lithe, nimble, knowledgeable and engaging, despite her supernatural semingly incurable anemia. she is focused highly on the skills department but she cannot really fight her way out of little more than a paper bag.
her dances can easily be interrupted by hacking fits where she gets pretty close to coughing up blood.
her hands are constantly cold and clammy, she frequently develops feverish temperatures. and she may faint of illness here or there.
she seeks a special tian alchemical cure called the Shien Medicine. the legendary Tea of immortality brewed using a philosopher's stone. not for the immortality aspect, but to cure her illness.
she chases this mythical pipe dream because it gives her hope. and nobody could give her any proper leads.
hit points aren't as bad a problem because she has a 50% miss chance in Dim lighting. and when i thought about it, dim lighting is easy to come by. even in broad daylight. basically, a seemingly constant displacement spell. the only circumstance that can really negate it is a bright noon in the middle of a barren featureless desert. but even then, there are typically the shadows of other PCs to hide behind for the Miss chance.
I also think that "never taking a score with a penalty" is just as bad as dumping a stat.So I'm not allowed to dump a stat to increase others, and I can't make sure none of my stats have a negative modifier. I just can't win with you guys!
XD
Not I said the "never taking a score with a penalty" as opposed to "sometimes I don't have a dump and sometimes I do". I can understand a dump -- I can understand not taking a dump -- but when either is something you do every time it seems a bit much either way.
when i was younger and first started freeform, i used to try to create little miss perfect. the most broken little girl ever. when i branched to D&D 3.5 edition, i had a munchkin level of power obscession, but now realize, in the last 5 years, that i truly despise perfection, and that i cannot stand excessive difficulty either. i have to have a fairly decent level of power while still being challenged. and even though i mostly create loli, i occasionally branch off to other ideas.
even though i love the idea of little miss badass, i cannot play her as often as i believed i could and need to be challenged in other areas.
30 point buy is my preferred for pathfinder, but i still need to be challenged and have learned to accept weekly williams value of 25.
speaking of Dump Stats, I've been playing as a kobold barbarian and a Goblin Paladin recently, both SORELY unoptimized, and I've had to dump stats just to make things WORK, let alone try and OPTIMIZE.
Ah, yes. I play a Goblin Paladin as well. The version of Paladin I'm playing has some 3.5 influences, which means I couldn't dump Wisdom. As a result, I went with a finesse build. 18 Dex, 12 Cha, Wis, Con, 10 Str, Int. It seemed the path of least resistance, with the house rules we're using. He is the frontline tank, and surprisingly good at what he does. I couldn't dump Str as a Dex fighter, because that penalty would kill what little damage output I have, and I wouldn't dump Int because I don't want to be stupid.
Like others, I tend to avoid negatives. On top of that, the DM I usually play with *makes* you roleplay the consequences of having a dump sta--or at the very least alters NPC reactions based on stats. For instance, negative STR means you're scrawny, negative DEX means you're clumsy, negative CON means you're sickly, negative CHA means you pick your nose in public... etc.
I only drop stats below 10 when I have a concrete idea for how that reduced stat will make the character more interesting to play. Of course I also give spiffies out for players who describe their failures in interesting ways...so being descriptive about bad things happening to your character gets you another currency to play with.
I do get annoyed with the players who take a CHA 7 character and use their ability to speak convincingly at the table to 'get around the limitation'. I don't let the guy who lifts weights as a hobby use that as an excuse for higher encumbrance levels on his STR 5 Gnome Sorcerer. Why should the player who works as a political aide get to sidestep his Half-Orc warrior's 7 CHA by being glib?
I love it when I get that moment of understanding when reading a thread. Now I see that the reason I disagree with people that enforce roleplay penalties for dump stats is because I don't have roleplay benefits for high stats. Thanks mdt, that makes me feel better.
You can't have it both ways. You either have roleplay repurcussions for both good and bad stats, or you don't have them for either.
my god I couldn't agree more, my problem has always been CHA 8 = people hate you (penalty for dump stat), CHA 12 = you get along fine with people, CHA 9412 = you get along fine with people. Seriously why should I bother not dumping it? That bonus to strength is better then, well nothing quite frankly.
Not I said the "never taking a score with a penalty" as opposed to "sometimes I don't have a dump and sometimes I do". I can understand a dump -- I can understand not taking a dump -- but when either is something you do every time it seems a bit much either way.
How has no one quoted this yet? I mean... just read it! I agree sometimes I don't need to take a dump xD I feel immature right now...
I had a venerable human sorcerer (witch theme) with the following stats at level 10: Str 2, Dex 6, Con 10, Int 12, Wis 12, Cha 27.
HP 36; AC 8, CMB +1, CMD 9; Fort +3, Ref +1, Will +8.
She survived from level one to level ten that way. She fell in battle quite a few times, but was never killed throughout the entirety of her adventuring career. Eventually she got lost in a desert never to be seen or heard from again (due to play style disagreements I dropped out of that particular campaign shortly after she got separated from the party and lost her way in "the great sands").
I love it when I get that moment of understanding when reading a thread. Now I see that the reason I disagree with people that enforce roleplay penalties for dump stats is because I don't have roleplay benefits for high stats. Thanks mdt, that makes me feel better.
You can't have it both ways. You either have roleplay repurcussions for both good and bad stats, or you don't have them for either.my god I couldn't agree more, my problem has always been CHA 8 = people hate you (penalty for dump stat), CHA 12 = you get along fine with people, CHA 9412 = you get along fine with people. Seriously why should I bother not dumping it? That bonus to strength is better then, well nothing quite frankly.
Not I said the "never taking a score with a penalty" as opposed to "sometimes I don't have a dump and sometimes I do". I can understand a dump -- I can understand not taking a dump -- but when either is something you do every time it seems a bit much either way.How has no one quoted this yet? I mean... just read it! I agree sometimes I don't need to take a dump xD I feel immature right now...
I don't take CHA because, let's face it, those f&+%ing Orcs are going to die for starting s+!# in my neck of the woods. No excuses. "Send your team to parley with them" my ass.
I love it when I get that moment of understanding when reading a thread. Now I see that the reason I disagree with people that enforce roleplay penalties for dump stats is because I don't have roleplay benefits for high stats. Thanks mdt, that makes me feel better.
+1.
I don't make awesome things happen to your character just for having a 12 CHR, so I'm not going to make terrible things happen to your character just for having an 8 CHR.
Of course, if that -2 diplomacy roll (etc.) for the 8 vs. the 12 does legitimately bite you in the ass, then it legitimately bites you in the ass. But it's not my job as the GM to go out of my way to punish you for the 8 out of some utterly misguided sense of roleplaying or unmunchkinism. There's about a hundred things I could be doing instead to make the game more fun for everybody.
I just can't imagine playing a character that mentally deficient; I wouldn't enjoy it.
Honestly, many (not all!) of the people I've gamed with over the years wouldn't get as high as average Charisma scores if they were statted up fairly as PCs. Because it's near impossible to really RP a high Charisma if you're a little socially awkward or challenged in real life, dumping CHR to 7 or 8 is probably the best thing those guys can do to be accurately RPing their stats. :P
But is dropping your WIS to a 8 to 5 really worth it?
I do not optimize, I don't like it. If someone can give me a good reason (e.g. almost no penalties for going 4 rogue if you already planned on one level of rogue) I may go with it of I feel it fits my character concept.
That said I made a Varisian cleric dedicated to Shelyn. Using a glaive as my weapon I decided to play up my chance to get AoOs. This required me to have 14 dex. I needed some strength to actually hit so I went 17 strength (including human +2). I needed wisdom to cast spells so I went 14 WIS. I also needed some charisma in order to exclude enemies from my channeling so I got 14. In order to get all this I needed to dump Int. If I was dropping it to 8, I may as well drop it to 7 and get some extra Con.
So that's why I dumped a stat. I simply didn't have enough points to get everything else up. I'm sure it's not optimal, but it fits my character. The fighter was out damaging me and hitting more often and didn't go unconscious as often. But I did get quite a few AoOs and I got some fun out of playing a low Int character for once. I rarely dump Int so I certainly didn't intend to from the start. I just had to make a sacrifice. He will never be good at skills because I'm going to be putting at least 1 rank every other level into Profession (tattooist).
As for role-playing penalties, it didn't come up too much. It mainly came up when someone asked me a question I should reasonably know. It also came up when someone suggested a really stupid idea. I stopped, looked at my Int and said "why didn't I think of that!" we then went on with the terrible idea.
As for role-playing penalties, it didn't come up too much. It mainly came up when someone asked me a question I should reasonably know. It also came up when someone suggested a really stupid idea. I stopped, looked at my Int and said "why didn't I think of that!" we then went on with the terrible idea.
:)
My take on it is, the GM didn't feel he needed to bring anything up, as you were obviously roleplaying your low int character enough for him to not have to do anything.
Honestly, that's the sweet spot for a GM. As a GM, I really hate having to put roleplaying penalties out there. I much prefer the player to roleplay their own limitations so I can reward their being true to their character instead.
I only hate people dumping a stat if they insist on playing as if their character had a high stat instead.
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I love it when I get that moment of understanding when reading a thread. Now I see that the reason I disagree with people that enforce roleplay penalties for dump stats is because I don't have roleplay benefits for high stats. Thanks mdt, that makes me feel better.
You can't have it both ways. You either have roleplay repurcussions for both good and bad stats, or you don't have them for either.
I think the thing is many people have an innate sense of fairness that requires all ability scores should be created equally and apply to every character. Four of the six abilities have built in penalties for dumping them so the other two MUST have a penalty.
I've mostly broken myself of this mentality. But I still tend to role-play INT 7 as fairly daft and CHA 7 as pretty socially backwards.
Edit: I split my post because most of the stuff below was intended to be more general comments on the thread rather than a reply to ToZ
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What gets me is the perception that you MUST have a maxed out primary attribute to enjoy the game. I GM a lot of non-optimal characters and they do just fine. They have just as much fun as the guy with the super optimized character and they don't die more often.
Casters with merely an 18 in their primary stat do just fine, Fighters with an 18 strength are fine. It's not a competitive game where you need to do more damage than the next guy.
The biggest thing that bugs me about optimizers is that it can often marginalize the players who don't optimize. I see this a lot in PFS where I get a big mix of characters at the same table and it can be quite frustrating.
Edit: ToZ's post looks funny but it's my fault.