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Each domain grants a number of domain powers, dependent upon the level of the cleric, as well as a number of bonus spells. A cleric gains one domain spell slot for each level of cleric spell she can cast, from 1st on up. Each day, a cleric can prepare one of the spells from her two domains in that slot.
If a domain spell is not on the cleric spell list, a cleric can prepare it only in her domain spell slot.
...gah! Every other class got some nice new bennies, but this festering boil preventing clerical customization lingers.
- - -
"Cayden? Big Fella Upstairs? This is your devoted subject back down here in the "Society" mortal realm; and, ah, I, I -- not to seem unappreciative or anything, but -- I was just wondering if, now that Might of the Gods and Dimensional Hop have been bestowed, if I might now also be permitted to cast Enlarge and Longstrider on the same day. Not being able to do so is particularly irksome because every time I try to scribe a scroll and save it for later, my pen explodes and my brain hurts."
"...Cayden? You there?"
"Hello You've reached Cayden Cailean's answering service. Hoist a cold one for me! <Hic!>" BEEEP! Press "1" if you'd like to leave a detailed message; press "5" if you'd like to leave your Pathfinder ID number....
| 1 person marked this as FAQ candidate. 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
This rule prevents a cleric with access to an awesome non-cleric spell from filling up all her spell slots with that awesome spell and outshining the guy who actually took levels in the class that actually gives full access to that spell.
If you want to prep more than one domain spell, use a higher level domain spell slot for the second one.
You can still use scrolls, wands etc. of the spell since it is on your spell list.
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"THIS IS ROVAGUG, MASTER OF DEATH. YOUR SORROW, ANGER, AND PAIN ARE MY MYRIAD STRENGTHS. WHENCE I AM FREED, ALL GOLARION SHALT OBSERVE MY MIGHT AND DESPAIR FOR THEIR LIVES. IF YOU'D LIKE TO FAX ME, PRESS THE 'STAR' KEY."
(beep!)
"Err, uh, yes, m'lord. This is, err, Gal Staff, the Allfather of Darkness. I don't wish to sound critical or anything, but... those damned PALADINS are banging on my door, and, err... I'd really really grateful for a few more Magic Circle Against Law and Magic Circle Against Good castings right around now. I think they're seriously looking to bring me to justice. They... I think one of them has Channel Smite. .....Oh. Oh, dear. Is that a Silver Smiting Bracelet? Lord... Rovagug... I'd really-"
"There he is! Zonk him while he's prepping his spells! Hold, villain, in the name of Iomedae!"
(something violent-sounding happens, tape continues running)
Honestly, this is one of my least favorite rules. I hate that except for one spell per day, two Clerics of radically different deities are practically identical.
I suppose you could fix the problem by giving clerics two domain slots, and requiring that they be filled by spells from different domains.
This rule prevents a cleric with access to an awesome non-cleric spell from filling up all her spell slots with that awesome spell and outshining the guy who actually took levels in the class that actually gives full access to that spell.
If you want to prep more than one domain spell, use a higher level domain spell slot for the second one.
And yet an urban druid can spontaneous cast his domain spells all day long.
Honestly, this is one of my least favorite rules. I hate that except for one spell per day, two Clerics of radically different deities are practically identical.
This.
Anyways, there is a way to get around this for at least one spell, say, fireball for a third level cleric with the fire domain. Just take the Preferred Spell feat from the APG and you can cast it spontaneously with your regular slots. Pretty neat.
... Just take the Preferred Spell feat from the APG and you can cast it spontaneously with your regular slots. Pretty neat.
This is a gray area for me, I am not sure if this is legal. I would allow it in my games, but one could also make a case for why you must not use your non-clerical spells in your normal domain slots... :-/
Anyway, I think the domain slot limitation is reasonable and ensures balance to the other classes. The cleric is already a powerhouse, and he sure as hell does not need yet another boost by casting non-clerical spells on a regular basis...
This rule prevents a cleric with access to an awesome non-cleric spell from filling up all her spell slots with that awesome spell and outshining the guy who actually took levels in the class that actually gives full access to that spell.
If you want to prep more than one domain spell, use a higher level domain spell slot for the second one.
And yet an urban druid can spontaneous cast his domain spells all day long.
But then again an urban druid loses the spontaneous casting of summon nature's ally and he only has one domain from a much more limited list, not two from dozens of domains two choose from.
There's also a Spontaneous Domains feat in 3.5, IIRC.
Found it. Complete Champion, page 62. Unfortunately, the only benefit is that you don't have to choose which domain spell to fill your domain slot with until you cast it.
But, I think I remember an option where you would be able to use your regular slots for your domain slots. Can't find that though.
Anyway, I think the domain slot limitation is reasonable and ensures balance to the other classes. The cleric is already a powerhouse, and he sure as hell does not need yet another boost by casting non-clerical spells on a regular basis...
You just gave my main reason why I think all of the spell lists need a good working over. If people are afraid of the cleric choosing to cast a "non-cleric" spell all day instead of the ones from his proper list, that is a pretty good sign the problem may lie with the official list, not with the domain spell.
You just gave my main reason why I think all of the spell lists need a good working over. If people are afraid of the cleric choosing to cast a "non-cleric" spell all day instead of the ones from his proper list, that is a pretty good sign the problem may lie with the official list, not with the domain spell.
Not really. The problem lies with someone taking non-cleric spells in addition to having a cleric's BAB, abilities, and proficiencies.
Not really. The problem lies with someone taking non-cleric spells in addition to having a cleric's BAB, abilities, and proficiencies.
Which really aren't that groundbreaking. The domain powers are generally fewer and generally weaker than the sorcerer's bloodine powers or the wizard's school powers. His BAB and proficiencies, while useful, are not in and of themselves particularly powerful, and his spell list is 75% situational spells that are best done from scrolls anyway. By reworking everybody's spell list so that the mix of situational and frequently useful spells are more balanced on all of the lists, a lot of the complaints for and against both the cleric and wizard would solve themselves.
But then again an urban druid loses the spontaneous casting of summon nature's ally and he only has one domain from a much more limited list, not two from dozens of domains two choose from.This rule prevents a cleric with access to an awesome non-cleric spell from filling up all her spell slots with that awesome spell and outshining the guy who actually took levels in the class that actually gives full access to that spell.
If you want to prep more than one domain spell, use a higher level domain spell slot for the second one.
And yet an urban druid can spontaneous cast his domain spells all day long.
If you include subdomains, the list of domains available to druids is not that limited. Ultimate Magic will also increase the number of druid domains, if I understand correctly the advertisement.
Cleric can choose 2 domains, but they have a single slot/level available for both domains, while Urban druids can choose 9 spells to cast as they see fit.Anyway, I'm not asking for clerics to be able to spontaneous cast every domain spell. I was merely pointing out that there's so much concern that a cleric might step into other classes, but nobody cares if other classes do the same.
Anyway, I'm not asking for clerics to be able to spontaneous cast every domain spell. I was merely pointing out that there's so much concern that a cleric might step into other classes, but nobody cares if other classes do the same.
This tends to be the trend that I see. No one cares if an arcane caster attempts to cross over to the divine side, but have a divine caster try something similar, and everyone screams broken. It makes me think the whole arcane/divine thing should be reconsidered.
Which really aren't that groundbreaking.
Actually, it would be a lot worse than you think. The option would essentially invalidate several of the most iconic arcane caster builds that have been present throughout the history of the game. The cleric class would receive a significant boost, while some of the most popular and useful wizard and sorcerer builds would be crippled.
Anyway, I'm not asking for clerics to be able to spontaneous cast every domain spell. I was merely pointing out that there's so much concern that a cleric might step into other classes, but nobody cares if other classes do the same.This tends to be the trend that I see. No one cares if an arcane caster attempts to cross over to the divine side, but have a divine caster try something similar, and everyone screams broken. It makes me think the whole arcane/divine thing should be reconsidered.
Well, to be fair, there are reasons. Divine magic can be cast in armor. And divine classes tend to have better BAB and HPs.
So, I'm fine with arcane casters having a better spell lists. What I don't understand, however, is all this attention to the cleric, when just about every class get the ability to do something pertinent to other classes. On the opposite, clerics have nothing unique to them, but this I already discussed in another thread.
Clerics have a large load of advantages over wizards, as has been pointed out. The proficiency in armor and ability to cast in it without limitation, superior combat ability in the form of weapon proficiencies, hit dice size and base attack bonus, the ability to spontaneously turn some of their spells into others, a better fortitude saving throw, and domain powers (which are amazing!).
So yes, a wizard gets a better spell list. That's called balance.
Both classes are Tier 1, neither needs to be made better, nor is either in any way gimped.
Mechanically, both are fine as long as you are fine with the exact setup that both classes have had since the beginning. But the popularity of sorcerer, druid, inquisitor, witch, oracle, and other caster classes suggest that while still perfectly viable, the classic cleric and wizard classes need more flexibility in their overall structure than their current spell lists provide in order to survive into new editions without being considered dead weight by the majority of the players. It's already happened with 4E that the developers didn't feel like saving them; it could easily happen with a new edition of Pathfinder, though hopefully to a lesser degree. As much as I understand people want to save the classic archetypes of cleric/wizard/rogue/fighter, they are already largely dead in strictly mechanical terms.
Any changes in spell list would need to be reflected in their other abilities, but as it stands, domains, which should be a big part of the cleric class, can barely be allowed even as a very basic add on without upsetting the ever so precious balance between cleric and wizard. That to me is a problem.
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Honestly, this is one of my least favorite rules. I hate that except for one spell per day, two Clerics of radically different deities are practically identical.
Exactly, which is why everybody goes all agog at every new divine class option -- because they're tired of playing clerics who, whether they're LG or CN, remain 90% identical.
"Oh, fine. Flame Strike it is...again...."
I agree with the OP and furthermore think clerics should have lazors.
Seriously. Clerics can do several stuff. Allow them to cast once per slot a non- clerical spell means add usefulness in a non-OP way, add flavour and keep the class at a good level both from the power and the flavour standpoint.
More than 1 domain spell/level could mean, one of these:
1) Cool, arcane spells are removed from domain slots to avoid "but clerics cast wizard spells and have cures". only boring spell stay in the domains.
2) clerics go from very strong to OP
Both are Wrong. Wrong, wrong wrong.
Seriously, designers managed to keep the cleric at bay, powerful and customizable, but different from the 3.5 CoDzilla.
Be careful of what you wish for.
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Honestly, this is one of my least favorite rules. I hate that except for one spell per day, two Clerics of radically different deities are practically identical.This.
Anyways, there is a way to get around this for at least one spell, say, fireball for a third level cleric with the fire domain. Just take the Preferred Spell feat from the APG and you can cast it spontaneously with your regular slots. Pretty neat.
/plays around with his Goblin Sacred Servant Paladin of Sarenrae miniature
... (in a gobliny voice) Wait... I can do WHAT??!!
/runs off to check his APG
(in a gobliny voice) HURRAY!!!!!!!!!!!
/fireball
I agree with the OP and furthermore think clerics should have lazors.
Seriously. Clerics can do several stuff. Allow them to cast once per slot a non- clerical spell means add usefulness in a non-OP way, add flavour and keep the class at a good level both from the power and the flavour standpoint.
More than 1 domain spell/level could mean, one of these:
1) Cool, arcane spells are removed from domain slots to avoid "but clerics cast wizard spells and have cures". only boring spell stay in the domains.
2) clerics go from very strong to OP
Both are Wrong. Wrong, wrong wrong.
Seriously, designers managed to keep the cleric at bay, powerful and customizable, but different from the 3.5 CoDzilla.
Be careful of what you wish for.
This is why both the wizard and cleric need their spell lists rebuilt from the ground up. The problem is that both classes are so delicately fine tuned that anything less than a complete overhaul of both of them, at least as the spell lists are concerned, at the same time is going to cause severe problems.
This is why both the wizard and cleric need their spell lists rebuilt from the ground up. The problem is that both classes are so delicately fine tuned that anything less than a complete overhaul of both of them, at least as the spell lists are concerned, at the same time is going to cause severe problems.
In an hypotetical future edition of the game I would advocate spheres for clerics and school only spells for wizards. If one day I will perform an home-use rule overhaul, I will do it for sure.
Currently, a similar thing would be very risky of gamebreaking. At least, I would ask a feat for a limited use. As for combat or channeling, this would mean the cleric would be forced to specialize, and not being the best in 4 things.
Currently, a similar thing would be very risky of gamebreaking. At least, I would ask a feat for a limited use. As for combat or channeling, this would mean the cleric would be forced to specialize, and not being the best in 4 things.
Except that right now, clerics are not the best at anything, they have nothing unique about them, and the spell list needs a serious rewrite to make individual clerics stand out from each other. Undead, wizards are just as good or often times better by default; the majority of the spells that affect undead aren't on the cleric spell list, but the wizard spell list. Buffing they are simply one of many classes that can do it. Healing is the one department they are slightly better off, but even there, the value of combat healing is minimal except for emergency situations, which others classes can do often do just as well, and out of combat healing, there are half a dozen classes that can use a wand of cure light wounds. The spell list is the same for each and very cleric with the exception of 2 spells per level.
As many have said, the class as currently written is mechanically fine, but flavor wise tends to be a very bland choice, much like rogue and fighter were before the APG came out. Wizards got a boost with Pathfinder, but clerics really got just enough to keep them from being completely ignored by the majority of players.
And to ShadowCatX, while I agree that most of the time 4E and Pathfinder are completely different games, the fact that they both came out of the same game, and both reacted to the problems of 3.5, it is not unfair to compare how different developers reacted to the perceived problems of the different classes. The fact of the matter is that to many players, cleric is still the class that they only play because someone has too, and neither the 4E implementation or the modified 3.5 version in Pathfinder is where it needs to be for the class to survive as one of the primary classes played into the next generation of gamers and game development, not when there are so many other ways that both Pathfinder and 4E have come up with to fill the same basic role. The fluff may still be there, but the current mechanics are not going to survive in their present form.
IMO if there is any particular spell which is "too awesome" for a X class to have, then there's an equivalent argument that it should be "too awesome" for any class to have.
-- And as you observe, it's the barest of trifles to get around.
He is not saying it is too awesome for the cleric to have. He is saying that it is not fair for one class to have the same access to an ability in the same way that another class has if it(original class) had to take levels to get that ability.
As an example if you work your butt off to get something, and someone else gets to the same benefit equally without as much work I am sure you would not be happy.
An in game example is a rogue have to take 11 levels to get 5d6 sneak attack, and letting a fighter get it by taking a feat. If an archetype allow it a limited number of times per day that might not be bad, but to have complete access to it should not happen.
This rule prevents a cleric with access to an awesome non-cleric spell from filling up all her spell slots with that awesome spell and outshining the guy who actually took levels in the class that actually gives full access to that spell.
If you want to prep more than one domain spell, use a higher level domain spell slot for the second one.
Wow! A developer reply. Thank you for your response. I wish I could hear from you more often.
"THIS IS ROVAGUG, MASTER OF DEATH. YOUR SORROW, ANGER, AND PAIN ARE MY MYRIAD STRENGTHS. WHENCE I AM FREED, ALL GOLARION SHALT OBSERVE MY MIGHT AND DESPAIR FOR THEIR LIVES. IF YOU'D LIKE TO FAX ME, PRESS THE 'STAR' KEY."
(beep!)
"Err, uh, yes, m'lord. This is, err, Gal Staff, the Allfather of Darkness. I don't wish to sound critical or anything, but... those damned PALADINS are banging on my door, and, err... I'd really really grateful for a few more Magic Circle Against Law and Magic Circle Against Good castings right around now. I think they're seriously looking to bring me to justice. They... I think one of them has Channel Smite. .....Oh. Oh, dear. Is that a Silver Smiting Bracelet? Lord... Rovagug... I'd really-"
"There he is! Zonk him while he's prepping his spells! Hold, villain, in the name of Iomedae!"
(something violent-sounding happens, tape continues running)
Priceless! That made me laugh quite a bit, even on the 2nd time reading it.
Clerics have a large load of advantages over wizards, as has been pointed out. The proficiency in armor and ability to cast in it without limitation, superior combat ability in the form of weapon proficiencies, hit dice size and base attack bonus, the ability to spontaneously turn some of their spells into others, a better fortitude saving throw, and domain powers (which are amazing!).
So yes, a wizard gets a better spell list. That's called balance.
Both classes are Tier 1, neither needs to be made better, nor is either in any way gimped.
Again you need to note that with the access to the wizard spells from their domains, they can use a number of wands, scrolls, etc any way of those spells giving them some access to wizard spells all day long.
And he only gets one domain from a small list; has to give up an animal companion to get it, and gets wild shape very late for it. Moot point.
And yet an urban druid can spontaneous cast his domain spells all day long.
I already explained my point. Not a really small list of domains. And clerics never wild shape nor usually have an animal companion to begin with, nor they get the immunities of an urban druid. But comparing the druid with the cleric was not my intention. I was specifically addressing the point that getting to cast domain spells more than once was something not to do in itself, according to the developer. I gave an example of another divine class getting this very ability. I never wrote that urban druids are overpowered compared to clerics.
Why don't give the cleric the ability to spontaneous cast one domain spells in excange of, I don't know, channel energy?I can see a cleric of a deity of magic suitable for such an option.
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There's also a Spontaneous Domains feat in 3.5, IIRC.
Found it. Complete Champion, page 62. Unfortunately, the only benefit is that you don't have to choose which domain spell to fill your domain slot with until you cast it.
But, I think I remember an option where you would be able to use your regular slots for your domain slots. Can't find that though.
I have not access to my books here but probably they were the Initiate of .... in the forgotten Realm source books.
Some of the powers of the initiates were too strong (Initiate of Mystra with the possibility to make a CL check to cast spells in a anti-magic field) but most of them were nice and the added spells were good too.|
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This is why both the wizard and cleric need their spell lists rebuilt from the ground up. The problem is that both classes are so delicately fine tuned that anything less than a complete overhaul of both of them, at least as the spell lists are concerned, at the same time is going to cause severe problems.
Little problem:
the second you redo the wizard/cleric spelllists you redo the sorcerer/oracle spellist too.So what is your idea? to split the Wizard/Sorcerer and Cleric/Oracle spellists, giving different levels to the spells in each list and different maybe even different spells?
At that point you will have to redo all other spellist, rebalance all the classes and so on.
So essentially Pathfinder 2.0.
Healing is the one department they are slightly better off, but even there, the value of combat healing is minimal except for emergency situations, which others classes can do often do just as well, and out of combat healing, there are half a dozen classes that can use a wand of cure light wounds.
Seriously, your argument is that if I have the needed scroll/wand and make my UMD I can be as good as healing as a cleric?
You have ever calculated the time and charges needed to heal someone of some serious hurt with a wand of CLW? Healing 100 hp of damage will require 19 charges and 19 rounds.Great, hope you are never in a hurry.
Not really. The problem lies with someone taking non-cleric spells in addition to having a cleric's BAB, abilities, and proficiencies.Which really aren't that groundbreaking. The domain powers are generally fewer and generally weaker than the sorcerer's bloodine powers or the wizard's school powers. His BAB and proficiencies, while useful, are not in and of themselves particularly powerful, and his spell list is 75% situational spells that are best done from scrolls anyway. By reworking everybody's spell list so that the mix of situational and frequently useful spells are more balanced on all of the lists, a lot of the complaints for and against both the cleric and wizard would solve themselves.
I am sure someone could optimize the heck out of it if they wanted to.
I disagree with the reworked spell list and the scroll idea. Scrolls get expensive and it takes a move action to pull them out. There is also the fact that debuffing clerics are an option and spells from scrolls suck as far as saves go so the scroll option is out the for those and other reasons. When you rework the spell list you then have to go back and redo the classes, which means system over hual time most likely. I don't think that many people want classing dipping into another class's area all day long.|
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And he only gets one domain from a small list; has to give up an animal companion to get it, and gets wild shape very late for it. Moot point.
And yet an urban druid can spontaneous cast his domain spells all day long.
I already explained my point. Not a really small list of domains. And clerics never wild shape nor usually have an animal companion to begin with, nor they get the immunities of an urban druid. But comparing the druid with the cleric was not my intention. I was specifically addressing the point that getting to cast domain spells more than once was something not to do in itself, according to the developer. I gave an example of another divine class getting this very ability. I never wrote that urban druids are overpowered compared to clerics.
Why don't give the cleric the ability to spontaneous cast one domain spells in excange of, I don't know, channel energy?I can see a cleric of a deity of magic suitable for such an option.
Spontaneous Casting: An urban druid can channel stored spell energy into domain spells that she has not prepared ahead of time. She can “lose” a prepared spell in order to cast any domain spell of the same level or lower. This ability replaces the ability to spontaneously cast summon nature's ally spells.
Nature Bond (Ex): An urban druid may not select an animal companion. Instead, she must choose from the following domains, rather than those usually available to druids: Charm, Community, Knowledge, Nobility, Protection, Repose, Rune, or Weather.
So to have the same "cost" it would replace the ability to spontaneously cast cure spells.
And the druid has to pay a second cost to get the domain.Vedi un po' te.
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But, I think I remember an option where you would be able to use your regular slots for your domain slots. Can't find that though.
Complete Divine page 80, Domain Spontaneity feat.
Basically you specify one of your domains when you take the feat you can then convert any prepared Divine spell you have prepared into a domain spell of the appropriate level or less. You also expend a Turn Undead attempt, so its not unlimited.
You can take the feat more than once, applying to a different domain each time.
Also, Players Handbook 2 page 37, class variant, You lose the ability to spontaneously cast Cure or Inflict spells and instead get to cast spells from ONE of your domains spontaneously. You also get to prepare Cure or Inflict spells in domain slots
And he only gets one domain from a small list; has to give up an animal companion to get it, and gets wild shape very late for it. Moot point.
And yet an urban druid can spontaneous cast his domain spells all day long.
I already explained my point. Not a really small list of domains. And clerics never wild shape nor usually have an animal companion to begin with, nor they get the immunities of an urban druid. But comparing the druid with the cleric was not my intention. I was specifically addressing the point that getting to cast domain spells more than once was something not to do in itself, according to the developer. I gave an example of another divine class getting this very ability. I never wrote that urban druids are overpowered compared to clerics.
Why don't give the cleric the ability to spontaneous cast one domain spells in excange of, I don't know, channel energy?I can see a cleric of a deity of magic suitable for such an option.
Spontaneous Casting: An urban druid can channel stored spell energy into domain spells that she has not prepared ahead of time. She can “lose” a prepared spell in order to cast any domain spell of the same level or lower. This ability replaces the ability to spontaneously cast summon nature's ally spells.
Nature Bond (Ex): An urban druid may not select an animal companion. Instead, she must choose from the following domains, rather than those usually available to druids: Charm, Community, Knowledge, Nobility, Protection, Repose, Rune, or Weather.
So to have the same "cost" it would replace the ability to spontaneously cast cure spells.
And the druid has to pay a second cost to get the domain.
Vedi un po' te.
Druids pay more but gain more (cleric already has access to domains). Still, removing the ability to spontaneously cast cure spells for the cleric would be fine. In any case, I'm not actually advocating any specific proposals - which must be carefully balanced out of course - I'm just pointing out that the "clerics can't step into other classes" should not be an absolute.
And yet an urban druid can spontaneous cast his domain spells all day long.
But not his summon nature's ally spells.
You want to cast your domain spells more often than once a day? Grab yourself some pearls of power.
Exactly, which is why everybody goes all agog at every new divine class option -- because they're tired of playing clerics who, whether they're LG or CN, remain 90% identical.Clerics are one of the easiest classes for otherwise identical PCs to seem so very very different.
While mechanically they don't have as many clear distinctions, they really don't need to.
Now that said, it would be nice to have domains a bit more fleshed out and perhaps one other class feature to the class beyond channel energy. Compared to what other classes received in terms of attention by Paizo in Pathfinder the cleric seems to have been thrown in with the PrCs for the lack of careful crafting that the other classes received.
-James
I agree with James that if clerics of different gods end up being virtually identical and that bothers you, it is easily solvable by either roleplaying or being more imaginative with your spell selection.
First, if you are playing a cleric of Iomedae in one game and a cleric of Rovagug in the next and they seem identical to you, I would say you must not be doing much roleplaying. Even with identical spell lists, the roleplaying experience of playing those two different clerics should be vastly different.
Second, I realize that a lot of folks get focused on what they think are the "best" spells and always memorize them no matter the situation or the character. However, just start a thread here proclaiming certain spells to be the "best" at any given level and class, and you'll find lots of folks who will disagree with you. So I would encourage folks to branch out and try different spells, perhaps customizing them to the personality of the cleric. You may be pleasantly surprised at how effective some spells you would never normally consider are, if they are used creatively and in the right situations.
Great stuff
Except that right now, clerics are not the best at anything, they have nothing unique about them, and the spell list needs a serious rewrite to make individual clerics stand out from each other. Undead, wizards are just as good or often times better by default; the majority of the spells that affect undead aren't on the cleric spell list, but the wizard spell list. Buffing they are simply one of many classes that can do it. Healing is the one department they are slightly better off, but even there, the value of combat healing is minimal except for emergency situations, which others classes can do often do just as well, and out of combat healing, there are half a dozen classes that can use a wand of cure light wounds. The spell list is the same for each and very cleric with the exception of 2 spells per level.
As many have said, the class as currently written is mechanically fine, but flavor wise tends to be a very bland choice, much like rogue and fighter were before the APG came out. Wizards got a boost with Pathfinder, but clerics really got just enough to keep them from being completely ignored by the majority of players.
And to ShadowCatX, while I agree that most of the time 4E and Pathfinder are completely different games, the fact that they both came out of the same game, and both reacted to the problems of 3.5, it is not unfair to compare how different developers reacted to the perceived problems of the different classes. The fact of the matter is that to many players, cleric is still the class that they only play because someone has too, and neither the 4E implementation or the modified 3.5 version in Pathfinder is where it needs to be for the class to survive as one of the primary classes played into the next generation of gamers and...
IMHO, you understimate domains and what wake up in the morning choosing froma whole spell list really means. YMMV of course.
IMHO, you understimate domains and what wake up in the morning choosing froma whole spell list really means. YMMV of course.
I'd be more impressed with the access to the whole spell list if there was more actual choice present on it. Even most of the more offensive spells like Hold Person are heavily reliant on specific circumstances, as they almost all rely on weak will saves to succeed. The spell list can be very powerful in the right campaign or in the hands of the right player, but if you don't have a DM that makes much use of curses or the various effects like blind, or uses them only rarely, half the spell list is already pointless as far as actually memorizing it is concerned, except maybe in your downtime to make scrolls. Remove undead, and another chunk of the cleric's power is diminished. The real killer though is that outside of a handful of spells like Flame Strike, the vast majority of the cleric spells are based on the will save or rely on the thoroughly average BAB of the class, not to mention spell resistance and DCs for those clerics that choose to focus on something other than their casting. Also, with most of the buff spells having a range of touch, the cleric has to convince the rest of the party to stay close to him long enough to get the buff spells up.
I have personally played a cleric and they can be a lot of fun in the right group, but too often they end up being seen by other party members as walking and breathing wands of cure light wounds, bull's strength, and whatever buff spells they feel are needed, all while adjusting to whatever tactics those other players find interesting.
The biggest problem with the cleric isn't the the player playing the cleric underestimates the power of the whole spell list, it is that everyone else, including the DM often times, tends to base their expectations of what the cleric should and should not be doing on only a small part of their list. Making two different clerics clearly mechanically distinct doesn't need to be done for the sake of the person playing the character; most players willing to play a cleric are perfectly capable of doing that themselves. It needs to be done so that everyone else at the table will finally realize that the cleric as a healbot/buffbot is a complete waste of time for everyone, but especially the person playing that healbot/buffbot.
If you include subdomains.......and you really shouldn't, as subdomains are cleric-only. Druids can only access the base domain unless the subdomain is called out by name.
I don't see why you think it is cleric only?
Subdomains can be selected by Druids (except the metal subdomain) and inquisitors (if their deity allows it).
And in the FAQ for the APG
Can druids, inquisitors, and other classes with access to domains take the subdomains listed in the cleric section of the APG?
Yes, as long as they follow the rules for subdomains on page 86. A character who does not worship a deity (such as some druids and paladins) may select any one subdomain appropriate to a domain available to his or her class.
I really don't see the problem. The domain powers have a huge impact on how a Cleric plays (especially compared to 3.x's limp abilities)and will also usually affect which normal spells he elects to take as well. What does a Barbarian do except swing his weapon while periodically rageing? Redoing the spell lists solves neither the issues that arise from giving non-clerical spells to Clerics nor does it solve any other issue since you're just shuffling spells around which just shuffles the problem around.
The only way I see to deal with this "problem" (which is only one of perception IMO) is to make every Cleric permutation into a Druid like class with it's own unique spell list and set of abilities pertinent to that Cleric type. However, the number of permutations makes that nigh impossible to do; you's need a dozen such classes to even touch upon the most common and basic Cleric builds.
Now, I wouldn't mind seeing Domains play a larger role in the cleric class. Say, fewer generic spells but more special abilities. If spell lists are redone I'd like to see fewer of them (again, less spells but more abilities) but not shuffled around which just makes things confusing and blurs the lines between class types; the lists are gargantuan enough as it is. Ultimate Magic is just going to make it worse. It's bad enough to have feat bloat I don't need spell bloat on top of it.
SJ
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I don't see why you think it is cleric only?If you include subdomains.......and you really shouldn't, as subdomains are cleric-only. Druids can only access the base domain unless the subdomain is called out by name.
Not long after the APG came out, there were some second- and third-hand reports that someone at Paizo had stipulated that subdomains were cleric-only, and I think the ruling even made it into Hero Lab. But the reports, if they were true, never received any confirmation, and of course the FAQ and PRD eventually made it clear that things worked the other way.