My character is nearing the middle age category but has turned into a vampire along the way. Would my character get any the penalties or bonuses for aging?
My character is nearing the middle age category but has turned into a vampire along the way. Would my character get any the penalties or bonuses for aging?
Once you are undead you don't age. As an example if your were turned into a vampire at the age of 20 your body would stay that way, and so would your mind. I like the fact that Libris Mortis explained how undead creature's mind's don't really advance even as they get older. I hope pathfinder puts out a similar book, at least fluff(flavor) wise.
Alternately, since intelligent undead continue to be able to gain class levels, there has to be some aging/maturing of the mind along the way. Currently, the rules are silent on the issue, but I would be hard pressed as a GM to apply the aging modifiers on an undead. The biggest reason is because you are no longer Humanoid (Elf) or Humanoid (Gnome) or whatever you were before, you are now Undead (augmented humanoid). Take a look at the aging tables and find Augmented Humanoid. It isn't there, which means RAW is silent on how the aging on non-core races works. (Which means, as a DM, I've got to figure out what the age categories for kobolds and goblins are... but I digress.)
Undead might age, but they surely don't age the same as the living. I'd be slightly tempted to say that you gain the mental bonuses but not the physical penalties (since the mind is still growing and working) but becoming undead already comes with lots of goodies, so I would probably just say that any modifiers you are going to get came from the template added and from leveling up.
I'd like there to be a manner for good-aligned characters to become immortal, that was something that was seriously lacking in 3.5 as far as I could tell.
Immortality rarely matters to players since games have a limited time span even in game world time, and the other ways to become immortal are just secondary results of another power grab such as being an outsider or undead. I think if being immortal had an impact of bigger percentage of games it would be approached, but for the most part it never comes up.
I'd like there to be a manner for good-aligned characters to become immortal, that was something that was seriously lacking in 3.5 as far as I could tell.Reincarnate will resurrect you as a young adult even if you die of old age, wish and polymorph any object will allow you resume your old form.
I never knew that. I wonder if it is a change from 3.5. I don't agree with the polymorph any object statement. The spell was only intended to change your form, as in from one type of thing to another, and I see nothing that says it reverses the aging process in any way unlike the reincarnation spell.
Casting Magic Jar can also be a way to avoid death from ageing, if cast shortly (or longer) before death, and keep recasting before it ends.
Thematically I think good characters have little reason to strive for immortality, they die when their time is up and reap the rewards of a life well lived. In the case of evil immortality it is often a curse, a selfish desire or a way to escape punishment in the afterlife.
Good character might linger on after death to deal with unfinished business or possibly guard something that was important to them in life, possibly dutybound by his or her deity. One of the monk archetypes in the APG aspires to becoming immortal at 20th level though.
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Thematically I think good characters have little reason to strive for immortality, they die when their time is up and reap the rewards of a life well lived. In the case of evil immortality it is often a curse, a selfish desire or a way to escape punishment in the afterlife.
Good character might linger on after death to deal with unfinished business or possibly guard something that was important to them in life, possibly dutybound by his or her deity. One of the monk archetypes in the APG aspires to becoming immortal at 20th level though.
I disagree, there is always evil to destroy, people to protect, and wrongs to be righted. Plus, in some settings, you need to be immortal to change the world in a meaningful fashion, simply because it takes so long to get so powerful, then you have to carve your path through the genuinely evil governments.
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I disagree, there is always evil to destroy, people to protect, and wrongs to be righted. Plus, in some settings, you need to be immortal to change the world in a meaningful fashion, simply because it takes so long to get so powerful, then you have to carve your path through the genuinely evil governments.Thematically I think good characters have little reason to strive for immortality, they die when their time is up and reap the rewards of a life well lived. In the case of evil immortality it is often a curse, a selfish desire or a way to escape punishment in the afterlife.
Good character might linger on after death to deal with unfinished business or possibly guard something that was important to them in life, possibly dutybound by his or her deity. One of the monk archetypes in the APG aspires to becoming immortal at 20th level though.
All governments are good. People just don't understand what is best for them. :)
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Some template should have the possibility to add an unlimited lifespan:
- half outsiders
- half fey
- becoming a shade (the old 2nd edition version)
- 2nd edition had some good lich
- at least one Adventure Path has the possibility to become a good half outsider
- 3.5 had the Cloud Anchorite prestige class that at level did get Immortality of the Mountain, removing the maximum age and death by old age. Sadly the PrC had very little to offer for non monks
- Wish or Miracle should be capable of extending your maximum lifespan without problems (note that keeping a youthful aspect will require another wish), the only doubt is by how much.
- living on the Astral plane*
If you like high level play "Immortality" (in the restricted meaning of unlimited lifespan) should not be a impossible goal, but that depend on your GM.
* Note the description of Timeless for that plane: "Age, hunger, thirst, afflictions (such as diseases, curses, and poisons), and natural healing don't function in the Astral Plane, though they resume functioning when the traveller leaves the Astral Plane". From that description you don't suffer the retroactive aging of most timeless planes.
The old and powerful wizard that near the end of his lifespan has retreated to the astral plane to a secret research citadel and from there contact the players to give them missions can be an interesting hook for a campaign. They would have a powerful ally capable of giving them only indirect support as every moment spent on the material plane can be his last one.
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My character is nearing the middle age category but has turned into a vampire along the way. Would my character get any the penalties or bonuses for aging?
I would not give him modifier for aging or would greatly extend the span of time needed to get the mental modifiers for aging, at least 100 years in every age category.
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Doesn't reincarnate give you a new fresh body? Or does it just give you a body in a body that's in comparable age to what you were in before you died?
The text does spell out that "The spell can bring back a creature that has died of old age", but whether that means they won't immediately die right after, is open to interpretation.
Since the dead creature is returning in a new body, all physical ills and afflictions are repaired. The condition of the remains is not a factor. So long as some small portion of the creature's body still exists, it can be reincarnated, but the portion receiving the spell must have been part of the creature's body at the time of death. The magic of the spell creates an entirely new young adult body for the soul to inhabit from the natural elements at hand. This process takes 1 hour to complete. When the body is ready, the subject is reincarnated.
So you get e new young body and dying for old age should not be a problem.
I see 2 problems with the spell description:
- if you follow the procedure to apply the new racial stats as depicted it is not clear what will happen to the age modifiers.
You lose positive e negative modifiers?
You keep them and so every time you get reincarnated after getting to middle age you lose from your physical attributes and gain mental attributes? (I doubt there are a lot of games where the characters will spend 20 years of game world time and the campaign will be still going, but you never know)
- if you reverse the effect of age and apply the young adult modifiers there is a probable loss of skill point. Hot it should be managed?
The bonuses would stop at +3 and the penalties would disappear, further aging would bring the penalties back as you age but the bonuses would not increase.
+1
I disagree, there is always evil to destroy, people to protect, and wrongs to be righted. Plus, in some settings, you need to be immortal to change the world in a meaningful fashion, simply because it takes so long to get so powerful, then you have to carve your path through the genuinely evil governments.Thematically I think good characters have little reason to strive for immortality, they die when their time is up and reap the rewards of a life well lived. In the case of evil immortality it is often a curse, a selfish desire or a way to escape punishment in the afterlife.
Good character might linger on after death to deal with unfinished business or possibly guard something that was important to them in life, possibly dutybound by his or her deity. One of the monk archetypes in the APG aspires to becoming immortal at 20th level though.
There is an Elminster sidebar in the 3E Realms Campaign Setting that blows up the argument that the powerful should run around fixing everything all the time. Paraphrasing the points:
1It isn't certain that you won't get blown up yourself when you mess with baddies as big as you, or bigger.
2It's impossible to foresee the consequences of your actions, and when you have epic power you have epic power to cause unintended harm.
3When disagreements arise about the correct course of action, you have to realize that equally powerful (or more powerful) forces will oppose you, perhaps destroying you, your country, your continent, etc. in an effort to stop you.
4The time and effort required to bring about change are enormous.
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There is an Elminster sidebar in the 3E Realms Campaign Setting that blows up the argument that the powerful should run around fixing everything all the time. Paraphrasing the points:
1It isn't certain that you won't get blown up yourself when you mess with baddies as big as you, or bigger.
2It's impossible to foresee the consequences of your actions, and when you have epic power you have epic power to cause unintended harm.
3When disagreements arise about the correct course of action, you have to realize that equally powerful (or more powerful) forces will oppose you, perhaps destroying you, your country, your continent, etc. in an effort to stop you.
4The time and effort required to bring about change are enormous.
What does Elminster know? Nada. Bad guys can go unmolested for centuries, even millenia at a time, but good guys always have someone equal to or more powerful than them, that also happens to be opposing them? Nonsense says I. Besides, any hero genre savvy enough to make it to those levels is going to be quite, lay low, and destroy the enemies of peace without a trace.
Gold Dragons are lawful good and don't even have equals on the mortal plane. The closest equivalent is the Jabberwock and who doesn't carry a vorpal weapon in a world with things like that, especially when you are an ancient dragon, and you've had literally millenia to make any plans you might want to make. The biggest problem is the Jabberwock isn't nearly smart enough to take on a gold dragon, that dragon is going to eat it's lunch.
Also, it doesn't take that long to make change. You just need to know what you are doing, which comes with wisdom, and experience. You know, the stuff that is also supposed to be represented by you being in the level 15+ category?
Here's what you do:
Cast clone while you're young. Keep the clone around with some kind of 'cloning tube of gentle repose' which is cheap if you can cast clone.
Age until you're venerable. Die.
Now you're in your young clone body plus age bonuses to mental stats! Clone yourself again. Maybe keep a few extra bodies.
:D
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Here's what you do:
Cast clone while you're young. Keep the clone around with some kind of 'cloning tube of gentle repose' which is cheap if you can cast clone.
Age until you're venerable. Die.
Now you're in your young clone body plus age bonuses to mental stats! Clone yourself again. Maybe keep a few extra bodies.
:D
Right. You get a few days/minutes older (depending on how fast you are starting your new clone, every day time you use this procedure, but it is not bad.
I forgot that option as the older version (1rst and 2nd edition) was noticeably different.
RAW, no.
Rules as they should be - bonuses to mental scores for aging shouldn't even exist.
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RAW, no.
Rules as they should be - bonuses to mental scores for aging shouldn't even exist.
I don't concur. While a young mind is usually more agile and more capable of doing fresh research a older mind (if still lucid) has plenty of prior informations that allow it to better catheterize and access new informations, giving it a better frame of reference from which it could analyse the situation.
That cover int and wis increases.The charisma increase is a bit harder as some people effectively become more charismatic with time, while other guys become more withdrawn and uncommunicative.
Consider that in the D&D setting access to the spells: cure disease, heal, restoration and greater restoration will take care of problems like alzheimer, dementia and so on.
If I was a high level character and had the cash a yearly routine of health care with heal, greater restoration and remove blindness/deafness would be something really worth it.
Here's what you do:
Cast clone while you're young. Keep the clone around with some kind of 'cloning tube of gentle repose' which is cheap if you can cast clone.
Age until you're venerable. Die.
Now you're in your young clone body plus age bonuses to mental stats! Clone yourself again. Maybe keep a few extra bodies.
:D
per the spell clone: If you die of natural causes the cloning attempt will fail. So basically, it'll work, but you'll have to kill yourself/get killed. Sounds FUN!
For that matter why only have one young clone at a time. Clone 50 while you're young.
edit: their was a mage in faerun that did that. Except all of his clones woke up and thought they were the original. Then started killing each other. Shenanigans ensued.
Here's what you do:
Cast clone while you're young. Keep the clone around with some kind of 'cloning tube of gentle repose' which is cheap if you can cast clone.
Age until you're venerable. Die.
Now you're in your young clone body plus age bonuses to mental stats! Clone yourself again. Maybe keep a few extra bodies.
:D
per the spell clone: If you die of natural causes the cloning attempt will fail. So basically, it'll work, but you'll have to kill yourself/get killed. Sounds FUN!
For that matter why only have one young clone at a time. Clone 50 while you're young.
edit: their was a mage in faerun that did that. Except all of his clones woke up and thought they were the original. Then started killing each other. Shenanigans ensued.
With that many, it is going to take a lot of Gentle reposes to keep them fresh..
RAW, no.
Rules as they should be - bonuses to mental scores for aging shouldn't even exist.
I don't concur. While a young mind is usually more agile and more capable of doing fresh research a older mind (if still lucid) has plenty of prior informations that allow it to better catheterize and access new informations, giving it a better frame of reference from which it could analyse the situation.
That cover int and wis increases.
No man, that covers skill ranks ;)
Which old guys are likely to have more of, having had a lifetime to gain experience and levels that some 16yo rookie didn't.
More experience - not more intrinsic mental sharpness. That's what old guys have.
With that many, it is going to take a lot of Gentle reposes to keep them fresh..
True, but an Item of Gentle repose is cheap. Relatively speaking anyway.
I'd like there to be a manner for good-aligned characters to become immortal, that was something that was seriously lacking in 3.5 as far as I could tell.
Ultimate Magic - 20th level Wizard feat.
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I mean one for everyone.I'd like there to be a manner for good-aligned characters to become immortal, that was something that was seriously lacking in 3.5 as far as I could tell.Ultimate Magic - 20th level Wizard feat.
I was going to point out the APG Monk of the 4 winds/level 20..
Much better then many others, but it only works for monks.
Yeah, I don't agree that only evil persons want immortality. Granted, an evil person is willing to do nefarious things to get immortality, but if you do something like become a god you can be a good immortal god.
Like I have a sorceress that wants immortality, but she's chaotic good, and so in looking she's not going to break her alignment for immortality. Bein' a lich, even a good lich (good liches are from Forgotten Realms) or any other undead isn't an option.
Seriously, if you have access to 9th level spells, immortality shouldn't be a problem for you. You can become a lich at level 10 or 13, or you can create your own spell that basically grants you an ageless, immortal body.
The only reason, or one of the only reasons, someone becomes a lich and goes through all that hard work and suffering, is because they aren't powerful enough to create/cast a 9th level spell. They wing it and fail, and lichdom is a result of the failure.
In other words, they know they won't make it to 9th level spells, so the try to Mcgyver it and lich is the best they've come up with.
And evil/good people may have...difficulties coming back for a reincarnation, as a)heaven is generally agreed upon to be awesome, and b)hell really doesn't like losing souls. And then there's Pharasma. Good luck.
Although that would be really fun. Have the character die of old age, have the Grim Reaper hold conversations with them ala Terry Pratchett's Discworld series, and then bring them back again with the Reaper saying "SEE YOU LATER."
Seriously, if you have access to 9th level spells, immortality shouldn't be a problem for you. You can become a lich at level 10 or 13, or you can create your own spell that basically grants you an ageless, immortal body.
The only reason, or one of the only reasons, someone becomes a lich and goes through all that hard work and suffering, is because they aren't powerful enough to create/cast a 9th level spell. They wing it and fail, and lichdom is a result of the failure.
In other words, they know they won't make it to 9th level spells, so the try to Mcgyver it and lich is the best they've come up with.
And evil/good people may have...difficulties coming back for a reincarnation, as a)heaven is generally agreed upon to be awesome, and b)hell really doesn't like losing souls. And then there's Pharasma. Good luck.
Although that would be really fun. Have the character die of old age, have the Grim Reaper hold conversations with them ala Terry Pratchett's Discworld series, and then bring them back again with the Reaper saying "SEE YOU LATER."
UM also has Immortality for wizards at level 20 as a feat option.
Adventurer: "Oh my gods, what just happened?!"
Death: "I HAVE GOOD NEWS AND BAD NEWS."
Adventurer: "...What's the good news?"
Death: "YOU CAUGHT THE AXE."
Adventurer: "Yeah, I know, I'm awesome like that...what's the bad news?"
Death: "YOU CAUGHT THE AXE WITH YOUR FACE."
Adventurer: "..."
Death: "THAT WAS THE EXPRESSION YOU HAD ON YOUR FACES THEN, TOO."
I disagree, there is always evil to destroy, people to protect, and wrongs to be righted. Plus, in some settings, you need to be immortal to change the world in a meaningful fashion, simply because it takes so long to get so powerful, then you have to carve your path through the genuinely evil governments.Thematically I think good characters have little reason to strive for immortality, they die when their time is up and reap the rewards of a life well lived. In the case of evil immortality it is often a curse, a selfish desire or a way to escape punishment in the afterlife.
Good character might linger on after death to deal with unfinished business or possibly guard something that was important to them in life, possibly dutybound by his or her deity. One of the monk archetypes in the APG aspires to becoming immortal at 20th level though.
There is an Elminster sidebar in the 3E Realms Campaign Setting that blows up the argument that the powerful should run around fixing everything all the time. Paraphrasing the points:
1It isn't certain that you won't get blown up yourself when you mess with baddies as big as you, or bigger.
2It's impossible to foresee the consequences of your actions, and when you have epic power you have epic power to cause unintended harm.
3When disagreements arise about the correct course of action, you have to realize that equally powerful (or more powerful) forces will oppose you, perhaps destroying you, your country, your continent, etc. in an effort to stop you.
4The time and effort required to bring about change are enormous.
I once played in a Mage the Ascension game where our characters eventually became archmages, so we retired them. However, my character, Jennica, didn't want to "retire" as her friends said she should (I as a player was ok with it) so the GM occasionally had cameos with our old characters, and the others would sometimes have to stop her from interfering.
One example, there was a catastrophe where a huge hole was opened up in reality, and it was going to take someone sacrificing their own life to close the rift, BUT as an archmage Jennica could have fixed it with a wave of her hand, nobody had to die. So, why shouldn't she? My ex-character refused to understand, but I did. Just because you have the power to wave your hand and do anything, you can't because others will begin to rely on that.
Oh look the Tarrasque is coming! Call Jennica! *Jennica one shots the Tarrasque and banishes it forever!*
Oh my sister was murdered by an assassin! Call Jennica! *Jennica resurrects your sister!*
Oh my 65 year old mother died of an infection! Call Jennica! *Jennica resurrects your mother in a healthy new 20 year old body!*
Where does it end?
Yeah, I don't agree that only evil persons want immortality. Granted, an evil person is willing to do nefarious things to get immortality, but if you do something like become a god you can be a good immortal god.
Exactly. I have an agenda that I will not be capable of fulfilling within a human lifespan, or a dwarf's lifespan, an elf's lifespan, or even a dragon's lifespan. I have important work to do and I need the time to do it in.
As far as extending your lifespan, riding the Suicide Express is superior to any form of undeath because it imposes far fewer limitations on your ability to interact with society; the main advantage of lichdom is invincibility, and the phylactery isn't particularly more reliable in this regard than well planned contingencies. Not to mention the free ability score increases as you age over and over again.
Your mage the ascension game sounds like the GM was way too casual with Magic, (the main reason that many players claimed that Mages were too overpowered) Once a magus acheives that level of power, they become front targets in the Ascension War and generally need to drop out of general sight if they're going to remain alive, not to mention deal with the constant in-fighting and political backfighting from all the other Archmages.
I once played in a Mage the Ascension game where our characters eventually became archmages, so we retired them. However, my character, Jennica, didn't want to "retire" as her friends said she should (I as a player was ok with it) so the GM occasionally had cameos with our old characters, and the others would sometimes have to stop her from...
Well, right that's alot of what they did, but Jennica wanted to also pop in to help Earth with various problems, so occasionally her chantry had to stop her, and let the non-archmages deal with with the non-Ascension war problems (also, for the record this was before the 3rd edition revised, which plot wise we never went that far, we had our own storyline of the war and such).
Yeah, I don't agree that only evil persons want immortality. Granted, an evil person is willing to do nefarious things to get immortality, but if you do something like become a god you can be a good immortal god.Exactly. I have an agenda that I will not be capable of fulfilling within a human lifespan, or a dwarf's lifespan, an elf's lifespan, or even a dragon's lifespan. I have important work to do and I need the time to do it in.
As far as extending your lifespan, riding the Suicide Express is superior to any form of undeath because it imposes far fewer limitations on your ability to interact with society; the main advantage of lichdom is invincibility, and the phylactery isn't particularly more reliable in this regard than well planned contingencies. Not to mention the free ability score increases as you age over and over again.
I'd say just for game balance you might get them once, but a 1000 year old human should not have a +200 Charisma just cause they got the a bonus +1 at 100 (I know that's not the actual bonus year, but it's easy math) years old bonus 10 times. Plus, the rules even say when you reach that age (using example, 100) not "You get the bonus every 100 years if immortal"
To go back to using Mage the Ascension as an example, in I believe it was the Horizons book (the Archmage book) it talked about immortality and spells to do it. One of the things it talked about was that humans have a huge brain capacity, but it's not unlimited. So, a 500 year old mage who used a simple spell to give himself physical immortality doesn't have the brain to handle it. So, being 500, he might not remember his first 100 years, just as a non-immortal human does not remember his first 1-5 (varies by each person, of course). When he's 1000? First 250 years might be forgotten. Only with a more powerful spell using Mind magic (in D&D/Pathfinder case, epic spell or at the very least level 9 if not using epic rules) would be able to rewrite the BRAIN to be able to handle infinite amounts of memories and knowledge.
I'd say just for game balance you might get them once, but a 1000 year old human should not have a +200 Charisma just cause they got the a bonus +1 at 100 (I know that's not the actual bonus year, but it's easy math) years old bonus 10 times.
Yeah, I think that's reasonable. Even though there's the chance you'll turn into an Elf and take another 350 years to get the full bonuses, there are more short-lived races on the chart than long-lived ones.
Thank to you, Thane, this thread is in the way for immortality, hahaha!
On the topic, now a wizard can become immortal:
Immortality (Ex): You discover a cure for aging, and from this point forward you take no penalty to your physical ability scores from advanced age. If you are already taking such penalties, they are removed at this time. You must be at least a 20th-level wizard to select this discovery.
No need to be a lich. A lich is more or less a way to gain power and flee, as said at the start of the thread, curse, punishment or simply life itself. You turn yourself in a monster of negative energy. I don't think a lot of good can come from that, if you see what I mean.