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Ok I know how it works to hire an NPC to take care of ability damage and such. This individual would like to raise an ability score by 2 points by using 2 scrolls containing wish spells. This seems like it would be illegal, but I don't see anything saying so.
Advice on this subject would be appreciated! PLEASE
Thanks all,
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You can't hire spellcasting services to cast 7th level or higher spells for the most part. I would assume they meant this to pertain to purchasing scrolls too.
Spells that are 7th level or higher are not available
from spellcasting services. In the Pathf inder
Chronicles campaign setting, spellcasters capable of
casting such spells are quite rare, and as such, cannot
simply be bartered with for higher-level spellcasting
services. The only exceptions to this rule are any 7th
level or higher spells listed as available to be purchased
by your faction.
Director of Brand Strategy
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Unless he has access to a scroll of wish or miracle on a Chronicle, he can not purchase such a scroll in Pathfinder Society, as they're both 9th-level spells (purchasing a scroll is basically a spellcasting service as far as the above quoted text is concerned). He can, however, get a manual to increase the desired Ability. If he only has the gold or TPA to get a +1 inherent bonus (for 27,500 gp with 40 TPA), that same Ability score can not be increased later with another +1 manual (ie. inherent bonuses don't stack). With 54 TPA and 55,000 gp, he could purchase a +2 manual, however.
Or he could try his luck by buying a scroll of Planar Binding and trying to squeeze 3 wishes out of a noble djinni. Just don't fail that Charisma check. :-)
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AxeMurderer0, I believe that applies to the duration of spells, rather than their effects. Otherwise, all that healing and raise deading and all would end, and most of the party would die at the end of every adventure.
Under wish, the text reads:
Grant a creature a +1 inherent bonus to an ability score. Two to five wish spells cast in immediate succession can grant a creature a +2 to +5 inherent bonus to an ability score (two wishes for a +2 inherent bonus, three wishes for a +3 inherent bonus, and so on). Inherent bonuses are instantaneous, so they cannot be dispelled.
Permanency is an effect which can quickly skew the game.
Permanent See Invisibility, Enlarge/Reduce, Arcane Sight, Darkvision, Tongues, Read magic, Greater magic Fang and the like give magical effects at a much cheaper cost then buying a magical item, and vastly increase the utility level of the caster.
It's a balance thing, more then anything.
==Aelryinth
AxeMurderer0, I believe that applies to the duration of spells, rather than their effects. Otherwise, all that healing and raise deading and all would end, and most of the party would die at the end of every adventure.
It's been specifically noted to apply to instantaneous duration spells with ongoing effects as well, notably Animate Dead.
if it's ability damage as you said then it'll heal on it's own and it would be cheaper to get a NPC cleric to cast lessor restoration or if they have the money, restoration. wish spell would be far too expensive for this use.
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So this part of the core rules is not balanced? And I take it, hasn't been balanced since it came out in 2000 with 3e?
Shouldn't that be an issue for Jason to address then?
No. This is an issue in organized play, whereas a home game has far more checks (such as long term foes who can plan to cast dispel magic and end those permanency effects should they become trouble).
Chill.
So this part of the core rules is not balanced? And I take it, hasn't been balanced since it came out in 2000 with 3e?
Shouldn't that be an issue for Jason to address then?
No. This is an issue in organized play, whereas a home game has far more checks (such as long term foes who can plan to cast dispel magic and end those permanency effects should they become trouble).
Chill.
+1.
We're talking organized play. In a campaign, not nearly as much of a problem.
==Aelryinth
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Another thing to think about, and something I am surprised no one has brought up is that in Golarion 17th+ level Characters are exceedingly rare and would be unlikely available for some low level no body to cast a 9th level spell for some gold.
This alone is enough as a reason why 7th+ level spells are not allowed in PFS. In fact that is the reason they give in the Guide.
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You didn't seem to be talking organized play earlier.
Now, this begs the question:
What, exactly, about organized play makes this an issue? People have claimed this, and banned it in organized campaigns but I've never really heard why this is the case. Could it simply be a case of people repeating this over and over until its just automatically believed?
-James
1) This is the organized play forum.
2) The rules of organized play have dictated these things are so. If you, as a cleric, cast Continual Flame, it ends at the end of the scenario. I don't particularly feel continual flame is broken, but the organized play rules say this is how permanent effects work. The rules also say you don't get access to spells above 6th level on scrolls or as spellcasting services unless they're on your chronicle sheet.
It's not so much about balance as that's the way the system is explicitly set up now.
So, yes, scrolls and spellcasting are treated differently than other magic items. It's all explained in the guide. You always have access to 1st and 0th scrolls. Any other scrolls are by TPA, except scrolls from TPA can never exceed 6th level. 7th and higher must be on a chronicle sheet.
What, exactly, about organized play makes this an issue? People have claimed this, and banned it in organized campaigns but I've never really heard why this is the case. Could it simply be a case of people repeating this over and over until its just automatically believed?
-James
My two cents: The difference is that in the "average" campaign, you have a single GM around to say "that's dumb" when a player proposes an idea. So, for instance, if a player in a home campaign wants to find a scroll of Wish, the GM can make it hard (but not impossible) to do so. In order to minimize table variation, the PFS powers-that-be sometimes issue rulings that disallow more controversial ideas (i.e. ideas that aren't necessarily bad, but that wouldn't necessarily fit in the majority of campaigns). So in this particular case, the powers-that-be are saying that they don't want a campaign setting where low-level characters are tossing around high-level spells from scrolls.
I sympathize with that goal, although I very much dislike individual clarifications being made within message board threads (instead of periodically being integrated into a centralized document). I also think it takes some significant mental gymnastics to read the current PFS rules as saying that 8th and 9th level spell scrolls are unavailable for purchase, although I don't think that would be a bad rule. I'd toss in Candles of Invocation for good measure. Heck, I'd even toss some other spells onto the ban list like Simulacrum or Planar Binding (although I'm sure that'd be unpopular among some players).
YMMV, of course.
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That's not quite accurate. Spellcasting services are generally not available, with some exceptions.
In general Spellcasting services is allowed for all spells 6th and lower except for the Banned ones of those levels. Though it depends on the Size of the near by settlements.
This says nothing about items that need certain spells of 7th level or higher. Though Mark is saying that it does now, but I can't see how one would be able to read this from the document as it's listed.
Are scrolls never available except off of sheets? Are they always available of spells under 7th level regardless of TPA score? Or do they follow the rules for purchasing every other allowed magic item via its cost referenced by TPA score?
Mark never said anything about 7th+ level spells affecting items other then scrolls which meet the same as the spellcasting service restriction of level. Scrolls are always avaiabl to buy as long as the near by settlement is of large enough size to cover the cost, but anything above 1st level is restricted by TPA.
Lastly why have a list of banned spells, if you don't include other banned spells in them?
The list of banned spells are only spells 6th level are lower, all 7th level and higher are banned except for the few you can buy with CPA.
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It isn't exactly hidden. It's right where you would expect in "Purchasing Spellcasting Services"
Spells that are 7th level or higher are not available
from spellcasting services. In the Pathf inder
Chronicles campaign setting, spellcasters capable of
casting such spells are quite rare, and as such, cannot
simply be bartered with for higher-level spellcasting
services. The only exceptions to this rule are any 7th
level or higher spells listed as available to be purchased
by your faction.
Finally, as noted in Chapter 6, any spell cast during
the course of a scenario ends at the end of that scenario.
Also in Chapter 6:
Spell Duration
Simply put, any spell cast by a PC during the course of a
scenario that is still active at the end of a scenario ends
when the scenario does. For example, if your cleric PC
cast bless on the party and bless is still active when the
scenario ends, then bless ends.
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Spells that are 7th level or higher are not available
from spellcasting services. In the Pathf inder
Chronicles campaign setting, spellcasters capable of
casting such spells are quite rare, and as such, cannot
simply be bartered with for higher-level spellcasting
services. The only exceptions to this rule are any 7th
level or higher spells listed as available to be purchased
by your faction.
Finally, as noted in Chapter 6, any spell cast during
the course of a scenario ends at the end of that scenario.
To be fair, that doesn't expressly state anything about purchasing scrolls, only spellcasting services.
To be fair, that doesn't expressly state anything about purchasing scrolls, only spellcasting services.In a land where Scribe Scroll is not allowed, wouldn't scrolls qualify as a service?
Usually a service is where you pay someone else to do something, not where you buy a physical object.
If I signed up for a gardening service and it turned out to be a rake, I'd be very disappointed.
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RPG Superstar 2015 Top 16, RPG Superstar 2013 Top 16
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What, exactly, about organized play makes this an issue? People have claimed this, and banned it in organized campaigns but I've never really heard why this is the case. Could it simply be a case of people repeating this over and over until its just automatically believed?
Permanency stuff breaks org play for the same reason magic item crafting does. It tinkers with the loot system. Specifically, it allows PCs to obtain their own permanent magical effects without having them on a chronicle sheet. Permanency is tantamount to crafting a durable magic item that takes up no body slot. PFS has decided to avoid that.
On the flipside, players would probably be pretty pissed if their PFS character was loaded up with permanent spells, then got hit with greater dispel magic. That's a lot of money permanently gone. PFS should avoid that, too.
Spells that are 7th level or higher are not available from spellcasting services.....
This is all we need for this. If you cannot hire a caster for these spells, I would think you would not find one that would write the spell into a scroll for you either.
Spell Duration
Simply put, any spell cast by a PC during the course of a
scenario that is still active at the end of a scenario ends
when the scenario does. For example, if your cleric PC
cast bless on the party and bless is still active when the
scenario ends, then bless ends.
Active, or timed, duration means anything that is ongoing and will eventually come to an end, whether it is one round after the scenario ends or one week after. Something that lists a duration of instantaneous or permanent does not have a timed duration and should not be affected by this rule. One example are characters and enemies that are hit by Flesh to Stone. They are still stoned after the end of the scenario. You do not get to be flesh again for free, you have to either pay the gold or the PA to be restored. Spells like Animate Dead, and a couple of others, have specifically been called out in the forums as having their effect end at the end of a scenario, and should probably be noted in the next version of the Guide. Either that or the Guide should specifically say that a duration of instantaneous or permanent is not actually permanent.
Spells that are 7th level or higher are not available from spellcasting services.....This is all we need for this. If you cannot hire a caster for these spells, I would think you would not find one that would write the spell into a scroll for you either.
And yet there's no problem finding a Tome of Understanding crafted by a 17th level caster (as noted by Mark above)?
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I think that PFS simply continued on with the other organized play campaigns in banning it for no reason. So far I haven't really heard anything that's a valid reason.-James
People have given your reasons, you wish to not accept them or they are not good enough for you. At this point rehashing that over, and over again is not going to change anything.
At a certain point It is time to accept the rule and move on, I think we have reached that.
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To be fair, that doesn't expressly state anything about purchasing scrolls, only spellcasting services.In a land where Scribe Scroll is not allowed, wouldn't scrolls qualify as a service?
Scribe Scroll isn't allowed to PCs. I don't extend that to mean that no one in the game world has it, either. I also don't know why you couldn't purchase a scroll of wish (assuming the GP and PA) as easily as a scroll of feather fall.
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At a certain point It is time to accept the rule and move on, I think we have reached that.Except it's not a rule.
It's not in the campaign guide at all.
People have said that it is, and so far they have yet to be able to show this.
But perhaps you're right and it's time to just ignore these threads, and people telling you to get off their boards.
James
I am not saying get off the boards, I am saying you where told the rule, you gave your argument and now it is just repeating, so really you are no longer accomplishing anything is this thread unless you bring up something new.
the restriction for Level 7 was always meant for scrolls to, I understand you don't read it that way but that is how it is meant to be read, that Level 7+ spells are off limit except for the few you can get by spending PA.
Most likely in the future they will make that clearer.
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I'm sorry I can't really accept that.
Do you have a Choice? Either accept that or move on to something new.
You like using Logic. Why would they not allow spellcasting service 7th+ but allow Scrolls 7th+? Does that make sense?
The reason is not for us to know why they don't allow it, but to know that they don't.
Edit: And why do you keep brining up TPA and Scrolls? TPA is very clear with Scrolls, you can only buy Level 0-1 with 0TPA, all others you need the correct TPA, and that is in the guide.
Edit, Edit: Also the way Josh wrote the Guide he kind of expected people to make logic leaps in certain points, as an example the logic the 7th level scrolls are not allowed, another example is playing up, the rules require to read into what he is saying more then what he wrote. I am hoping that will be fixed in the future guide.
You like using Logic. Why would they not allow spellcasting service 7th+ but allow Scrolls 7th+?
Probably because they didn't think about the consequences when writing the rules.
Does that make sense?
Maybe not. But in that case they should change the rules, rather than requiring bizarre leaps of logic to get the "right" answer from the existing rules.
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Maybe not. But in that case they should change the rules, rather than requiring bizarre leaps of logic to get the "right" answer from the existing rules.
One thing that will most likely come out of this thread, is that they will make it clearer you can't get 7th level scrolls, in the season 3 Guide.
You like using Logic. Why would they not allow spellcasting service 7th+ but allow Scrolls 7th+?Probably because they didn't think about the consequences when writing the rules.
Does that make sense?Maybe not. But in that case they should change the rules, rather than requiring bizarre leaps of logic to get the "right" answer from the existing rules.
Yet they can't write a Guide that covers every loophole that a rules lawyer might find or the Guide would be as big as the Core Book. We also have to accept that some people intentionally look for ways around the RAW, while others do not have the common sense needed to understand and play an RPG (neither of these are aimed at james).
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What about the following part in the spell description:
You may try to wish to produce greater effects than these ... Followed by blabla about dangers and GM discretion that I deliberately avoid here.
Here is a simple wish for a level 12 Pathfinder close to retirement.
I wish to become a member of the Devemvirate.
What about the next one
I wish the downfall of (insert faction you dislike)
And you can carry on - surely there are more campaign changing wishes possible.
How would you react to such a wish as GM. Just add it on the chronicle sheet and tell Mark/Hyrum to alter the next season?
Thod
Yet they can't write a Guide that covers every loophole that a rules lawyer might find or the Guide would be as big as the Core Book. We also have to accept that some people intentionally look for ways around the RAW, while others do not have the common sense needed to understand and play an RPG (neither of these are aimed at james).
I have to admit that some players try to push the rules too far for my taste. But on the other hand, I don't like stifling a player's creativity too much; if a 7th level character can come up with an ingenious use for a scroll of Polymorph Any Object, I think that's cool! So it's hard to know where to draw the line.
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Does this clarification on scrolls mean that we can no longer purchase staves that have 7th-level or higher spells in them?
What about wondrous items like Helm of Brilliance, Cloak of Etherealness, Verdict of the Nether Courts, or Orb of Storms.
The Orb actually can cast a 9th-level spell 1/month, which in PFS could theoretically be used rather often given that some missions mention long boat voyages or caravan rides before they even begin.
(Not that my character is nearly high enough prestige to purchase any of this, just curious)
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The Orb actually can cast a 9th-level spell 1/month, which in PFS could theoretically be used rather often given that some missions mention long boat voyages or caravan rides before they even begin.
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Remember that the PFS guide specifically says that items with frequencies of slower than 1/day are treated as 1/scenario.
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Remember that the PFS guide specifically says that items with frequencies of slower than 1/day are treated as 1/scenario.
The Orb actually can cast a 9th-level spell 1/month, which in PFS could theoretically be used rather often given that some missions mention long boat voyages or caravan rides before they even begin.
\
Right, which is really quite nice compared to a normal campaign--you can use the orb's Storm of Vengeance every single scenario.