Strictly speaking, your mount has to be one size category larger than yourself to function as a mount.
But yes, if you are medium and you choose an animal that doesn't become large until 7 then you cannot ride it.
My understanding would be yes. I don't think there is some kind of super-magnet that forces your character to remain seated on the creature.
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My understanding would be yes. I don't think there is some kind of super-magnet that forces your character to remain seated on the creature.
Well, except that the point of the power is that he gets a special mount. If the animal is not available to be a mount at the time he summons it, I'd imagine that the summon would fail, since it isn't a valid mount.
I imagine he's wanting a different type of mount than a horse.
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Hey, Ed, Marty here.
The second type of bond allows a paladin to gain the
service of an unusually intelligent, strong, and loyal
steed to serve her in her crusade against evil. This mount
is usually a heavy horse (for a Medium paladin) or a pony
(for a Small paladin), although more exotic mounts,
such as a boar, camel, or dog are also suitable. This
mount functions as a druid’s animal companion, using
the paladin’s level as her effective druid level. Bonded
mounts have an Intelligence of at least 6.
Once per day, as a full-round action, a paladin may
magically call her mount to her side. This ability is
the equivalent of a spell of a level equal to one-third
the paladin’s level. The mount immediately appears
adjacent to the paladin. A paladin can use this ability
once per day at 5th level, and one additional time per day
for every 4 levels thereafter, for a total of four times per
day at 17th level.
At 11th level, the mount gains the celestial template (see
the Pathfinder RPG Bestiary) and becomes a magical beast
for the purposes of determining which spells affect it. At
15th level, a paladin’s mount gains spell resistance equal to
the paladin’s level + 11.
Should the paladin’s mount die, the paladin may not
summon another mount for 30 days or until she gains a
paladin level, whichever comes first. During this 30-day
period, the paladin takes a –1 penalty on attack and weapon
damage rolls.
And:
As a paladin, what mount can I have? As a paladin,
your divine bond mount must be at least one size category
larger than you starting at 1st level. If you’re a Medium
PC, your mount must be Large. If you’re a Small PC,
your mount must be at least Medium. Your mount must
have four legs and must be viewed from a commonsense
perspective as being suitable as a mount.
Looks like your mount, as a 5th level Paladin, must be at least one size category larger than you are, right from the get-go, so it won't be possible to get one of those "large at 7th level" mounts, unless you do a two-level dip into another class (or other classes), and burn a feat on Nature's Bond (IIRC) in order to be 7th level Druid equivalent at 5th level as a Paladin.
Druid isn't a good dip, since the alignments allowed for Druid aren't Paladin friendly. Ranger or Fighter are probably best, since they are full BaB, and offer other benefits, like the large skill pool for the Ranger or the extra feats for a Fighter. Good place to grab feats like Extra Lay on Hands, given how often your Paladin burns through them...
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I'm confused.
Why is everyone using the animal companion list of animals for what size the animal is when choosing your mount?
In the paladin divine bond description, it gives dog as an example of an alternate mount that is more typical than the very rare. Now I'd assume that the dog would be used for the gnomes and halflings out there typically. But the animal companion list shows a dog as a small creature. So this would lead me to believe that if you used the animal companion list exactly as written for your mount, you either get a horse or a camel and that's about it.
My interpretation of this, and please correct me if I'm wrong, you pick an animal that common sense would indicate could be a suitable mount, and it must be one size category larger than you.
It says exotic mounts like a Boar, Dog, and Camel are options.
So what animal are you looking for to be your paladin's mount, and what size are you?
If the Beastiary has a stat block for the appropriate size of the animal you are looking for, and it meets the common sense meter for a mount... just take that animal of that size.
For example, a gnome could take a medium sized dog as their mount.
The line that says the mount functions as an animal companion has to do with gaining hit dice and feats and stats bumps and such. Not having to pick an animal off of the animal companion list.
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quoted from core rules:
This mount is usually a heavy horse (for a Medium paladin) or a pony (for a Small paladin), although more exotic mounts, such as a boar, camel, or dog are also suitable. This mount functions as a druid’s animal companion, using the paladin’s level as her effective druid level. Bonded mounts have an Intelligence of at least 6.
at 5th level, the above listed mounts have the following sizes:
heavy horse: large
pony: medium
boar: medium
camel: large
dog: medium
Note the bolded word above (i.e. usually), which indicates that a paladin could essentially use any animal companion listed in the druid class or the Bestiary I/II.
If you're a min/maxer heavy horse is the clear winner as the use of the language "heavy horse" instead of "horse" indicate that it's a horse animal companion further modified by the simple advanced template (i.e. +4 to all stats, and the fact that paladin mounts all have intelligence 6 is testimony to that bump; i.e. if you have a kind DM, *all* animal companion choices for a paladin could be modified by that template, but by RAW only the heavy horse gets it... those who will argue to you that this template will "break" the game haven't played a lot of mounted characters as the mounts/animal commpanion do die a lot...)
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Nice. If your DM goes by the RAW though, reading the description of the animal type, you can get armor proficiency for free if your lion is trained for war. If your DM is nice, he will let you use the advanced simple template on your mount as well, 'cause it's a bonded mount and not an animal companion.
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PFSOP Guide v3.03 wrote:
As a paladin, what mount can I have? As a paladin,
your divine bond mount must be at least one size category
larger than you starting at 1st level. If you’re a Medium
PC, your mount must be Large. If you’re a Small PC,
your mount must be at least Medium. Your mount must
have four legs and must be viewed from a commonsense
perspective as being suitable as a mount.
So what’s considered common sense perspective? This opens up a can of worms doesn’t it? And how do you “legally” for OP create your divine bond mount so it fits your size requirement?
If it isn’t found in the Beastiary as Large, then you can’t pick that type of animal? Well the Horse in the Beastiary is shown as a Large Animal, and a Heavy Horse is listed as having the Advanced Simple template (as someone already noted above).
The Divine Bond text indicates that the Mount option is usually a Heavy Horse. A horse is CR 1, while a Heavy Horse is CR 2 (+1 for the Advanced Simple Template).
So does this open things up to using the Advanced Simple template on other animals when creating the Divine Bond mount?
A Lion is a Large Animal. So I suppose technically you wouldn’t have to do anything special to get a Lion. But it is also CR 3, which is much better than a Horse.
So for a home campaign, this is incredibly easy to rule. For OP play, how would you as GM’s rule a lion mounted 5th level Paladin? Is this legal?
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If your DM goes by the RAW though, reading the description of the animal type, you can get armor proficiency for free if your lion is trained for war.
I appreciate that we disagree on this topic. I also appreciate that you're beating the drum on your perspective of it. I get pet rule projects, too. I get it.
However, it is a disservice to the PFS community. It is a disservice both to players who follow this advice without realizing how tenuous it is, as well as to the hard working GMs who then have to deal with players who have invested cash into +1 plate barding and then find that FAQ doesn't support this position.
By your reading of the RAW, it says one thing. By other readings of the RAW, and according to the FAQ, animals must take armor proficiency feats in order to be proficient with armor.
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Ok, nobody has corrected me yet, but I’ve done quite a bit of research here, and think I see where I was interpreting things incorrectly. So I’ll go ahead and correct myself. Please correct me if you think I’m still wrong.
I was getting screwed up by the phrase, “functions as an animal companion” and the fact that starting animal companions are usually small or medium. Then people kept referencing that an animal companion increases in size at 7th level. I couldn’t find that anywhere except as a brief reference under Nature’s Bond. It wasn’t in the druid level animal companion level chart.
Then I started looking at the individual animal companions. And noticed that at 4th or 7th level they got a bump, which for many of them included a size increase.
Seems that all the small animal companions got a bump to medium at 4th level, and the mediums got a bump to large at 7th level.
This is how a 5th level Paladin gnome could have a dog as his mount, because the mount gets its size bump at 4th level. This also holds true for the Badger, Bear, Boar, small Cat, and Crocodile. So if you wanted a cat mount, make a small (gnome or Halfling) paladin and take the small Cat option.
If you wanted a large cat mount, you’d have to wait until 7th level.
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What about a giant sandworm?I’m going to take a wild stab, and say if it isn’t on the Animal Companion list, you can’t use it as a mount in OP. In Home Brew, your DM could probably ok / house rule anything they want.
P.S. I know you were being sarcastic.
They actually spell out the specific requirements in the OP guide p20:
As a paladin, what mount can I have? As a paladin,
your divine bond mount must be at least one size category
larger than you starting at 1st level. If you’re a Medium
PC, your mount must be Large. If you’re a Small PC,
your mount must be at least Medium. Your mount must
have four legs and must be viewed from a commonsense
perspective as being suitable as a mount.
Ok, so this brings up the question I was asking earlier (and I know this quote, because you’ll notice I quoted it earlier in this thread).
By the way this quote is written, it seems like you could choose a creature not on the animal companion list as a mount as long as it meets the above criteria. If that is the case, then how do you determine the level bump at 4th or 7th?
I’m going to guess that the above quote is referencing which animals on the animal companion list you can choose.
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I will admit that the image of an old knight wearing the arms of the Hospitalers, riding his celestially-inspired crocodile into battle, is one of the most amusing images I've had all week.
I don't understand why paladins get open access to animal companions but rangers, cavaliers, and oracles don't. It's not like paladins needed the help.
Are people missing the point that the text says that it functions as an animal companion, not that it is an animal companion? It is a mount first and foremost, so if you cannot ride it, you cannot have it.
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It's not open as some folks might think. The mount must essentially be a quadraped, must be large, and obviously must have enough ground clearance to keep your feet off the ground. (sorry croc lovers!) That pretty much limits you to horse, riding dog, or wolf. Chocobos not allowed.I don't understand why paladins get open access to animal companions but rangers, cavaliers, and oracles don't. It's not like paladins needed the help.I will admit that the image of an old knight wearing the arms of the Hospitalers, riding his celestially-inspired crocodile into battle, is one of the most amusing images I've had all week.
Don't forget the Boar (noted in the Paladin write-up as an option for small paladins), Bear, Camel and Pony.
Yeah, the image of a Paladin on a croc is silly... but kinda fun to think about.
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And see that idea of it being just a mount if what I want to get around. I don't want a mount I want a loyal awesome animal buddy to help my paladin dish out justice. But I think in order to do this, I will need to dip into two other classes for lvls 5 and 6 until at lvl 7 I can go back to paladin take a feat then get a large mount that can be made to be a combat companion and not a mount.
And it is not that Paladins need help, no we are just that awesome, that we deserve to have those things.
Well nothing says you have to actually be mounted on your mount. It's a little silly but you are free to use your mount as a standard animal companion. Just be aware that your mount uses normal animal companion rules (including Handle Animal) and is limited to things tricks can do except when pushing.
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It's not open as some folks might think. The mount must essentially be a quadraped, must be large, and obviously must have enough ground clearance to keep your feet off the ground. (sorry croc lovers!) That pretty much limits you to horse, riding dog, or wolf. Chocobos not allowed.I don't understand why paladins get open access to animal companions but rangers, cavaliers, and oracles don't. It's not like paladins needed the help.I will admit that the image of an old knight wearing the arms of the Hospitalers, riding his celestially-inspired crocodile into battle, is one of the most amusing images I've had all week.
Some options that you forgot...
Medium Paladin: Camel, Bear, Tiger, Rhinoceros, ElephantSmall Paladin: Boar, Leopard, Pony, Auroch, Hyena
Not to mention a host of quadruped dinosaurs and a few options from Bestiary 2.
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There is no large bear animal companion.Some options that you forgot...
Medium Paladin: Camel, Bear, Tiger, Rhinoceros, Elephant
Small Paladin: Boar, Leopard, Pony, Auroch, HyenaNot to mention a host of quadruped dinosaurs and a few options from Bestiary 2.
No, but a small bear turns into a medium bear at 4th level, and so at 5th level a small paladin (gnome or halfling) could take a Bear.
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No, but a small bear turns into a medium bear at 4th level, and so at 5th level a small paladin (gnome or halfling) could take a Bear.Yep.
Medium Paladin: Camel, Tiger, Rhinoceros, Elephant
Small Paladin: Boar, Leopard, Pony, Auroch, Hyena, BearFixed.
Haven't looked much at the druid stuff in the APG yet, and not sure if they indicate in an animals write-up in the Beastiaries if they would be good for an animal companion or not.
But Tiger, Rhinoceros, Elephant, Auroch and Hyena I have not seen as animal companion choices. Tiger might be considered a Medium Cat choice, but they wouldn't increase to large until level 7 like the Lion.
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No, but a small bear turns into a medium bear at 4th level, and so at 5th level a small paladin (gnome or halfling) could take a Bear.Yep.
Medium Paladin: Camel, Tiger, Rhinoceros, Elephant
Small Paladin: Boar, Leopard, Pony, Auroch, Hyena, BearFixed.
Haven't looked much at the druid stuff in the APG yet, and not sure if they indicate in an animals write-up in the Beastiaries if they would be good for an animal companion or not.
But Tiger, Rhinoceros, Elephant, Auroch and Hyena I have not seen as animal companion choices. Tiger might be considered a Medium Cat choice, but they wouldn't increase to large until level 7 like the Lion.
Sorry about that inconsistency, I tend to think of Tiger as an option for both sizes, given the tendency of my mounts dying at inopportune times. Thus I have had gnomes riding Medium Tigers, and Humans at level 7 replacing a recently deceased horse with a Large Tiger.
As for Rhino, Elephant, Aurock, and Hyena ... They are listed as animal companion choices in the Bestiary, thus they are options for Paladin mounts.
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As with the other post about intel animals, Paladin mounts are not normal animals, they are magic beasts and even if you needed to make a handle animal check, the fact that they are intel 6 means that the check at least I would argue would be a DC so low or the roll would get such a bonus that only a 1 would fail.
They are not magical beasts. The clarification by Mark Moreland is quite clear on this.
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Quick question... Why do people think Paladin Mounts a Magical Beasts? I see nothing in RAW that would hint at that, until level 11, where it says they become Magical Beasts....
Because the recent blog and clarification on animals indicated that RAW say that any animal that has an INT over 2 becomes a magical beast. The clarification says this is true, but only for the way animals are born. No animal is born with a higher than 2 INT. But through growth and experience, that animal can raise its INT and get a higher than 2 INT and still be an animal.
The confusion comes in, where the Paladin write up says that the divine bonded mount starts with a 6 INT. So some people are reading into that, that the mount was born with a 6 INT and thus is a magical beast, not an animal.
I disagree with that interpretation, because Mark Moreland clearly defines the divine bonded mount, prior to level 11, as still being an animal.
RPG Superstar 2010 Top 16
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Animals
Spoiler:An animal is a living, nonhuman creature, usually a vertebrate with no magical abilities and no innate capacity for language or culture. Animals usually have additional information on how they can serve as companions.An animal has the following features (unless otherwise noted).
- d8 Hit Die.
- Base attack bonus equal to 3/4 total Hit Dice (medium progression).
- Good Fortitude and Reflex saves.
- Skill points equal to 2 + Int modifier (minimum 1) per Hit Die. The following are class skills for animals: Acrobatics, Climb, Fly, Perception, Stealth, and Swim.
- Intelligence score of 1 or 2 (no creature with an Intelligence score of 3 or higher can be an animal).
- Low-light vision.
- Alignment: Always neutral.
- Treasure: None.
- Proficient with its natural weapons only.
- Proficient with no armor unless trained for war.
- Animals breathe, eat, and sleep.
Magical beast
Spoiler:Magical Beasts are similar to animals but can have Intelligence scores higher than 2 (in which case the creature knows at least one language, but can’t necessarily speak). Magical Beasts usually have supernatural or extraordinary abilities, but are sometimes merely bizarre in appearance or habits.A magical beast has the following features.
- d10 Hit Die.
- Base attack bonus equal to total Hit Dice (fast progression).
- Good Fortitude and Reflex saves.
- Skill points equal to 2 + Int modifier (minimum 1) per Hit Die. The following are class skills for magical beasts: Acrobatics, Climb, Fly, Perception, Stealth, Swim.
- Darkvision 60 feet.
- Low-light vision.
- Proficient with its natural weapons only.
- Proficient with no armor.
- Magical beasts breathe, eat, and sleep.
So, what's the difference?
The second type of bond allows a paladin to gain the service of an unusually intelligent, strong, and loyal steed to serve her in her crusade against evil. This mount is usually a heavy horse (for a Medium paladin) or a pony (for a Small paladin), although more exotic mounts, such as a boar, camel, or dog are also suitable. This mount functions as a druid's animal companion, using the paladin's level as her effective druid level. Bonded mounts have an Intelligence of at least 6.
A Paladin's mount, like a Druid's animal companion, has d8 hit dice. It gets 3/4 BAB advancement. It has low-light vision, but not darkvision. So, as far as the rules are concerned, with the explicit exception of its intelligence score, the mount is an animal. If it were a magical beast, it would have different hit dice, etc. I'm not sure if the animal itself has the power to teleport, or the Paladin has the power to teleport the animal.
(Anybody who's played "Entombed with the Pharaohs" can appreciate how useful it might be to suddenly have an additional horse-weight on your side.)
At 11th level, the mount gains the celestial creature advanced simple template and becomes a magical beast for the purposes of determining which spells affect it.
gains darkvision 60 ft.; gains DR and energy resistance as noted on the table; gains SR equal to new CR +5; gains smite evil 1/day as a swift action
Now, the hit dice are still d8s, and the mount still has 3/4 BAB, but it now has several characteristics that mark it as a magical beast, and is considered so for the purposes of what spells affect it, after getting through its spell resistance. I'd argue that, even after 11th level, it's still not a full-blown magical beast. It's still mostly an animal, with the exceptions noted above.
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As with the other post about intel animals, Paladin mounts are not normal animals, they are magic beasts and even if you needed to make a handle animal check, the fact that they are intel 6 means that the check at least I would argue would be a DC so low or the roll would get such a bonus that only a 1 would fail.
The intelligence has nothing to do with the DC. The DC is 10 for trained tricks and 25 for pushing. The DCs are 2 higher if the animal is hurt in any way. Intelligence does nothing in this case.
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Ergo a Paladin mount is a magical beast.
For purposes of spells it is treated as an animal until level 11 where it is then treated as the magical beast that it always was.
-James
What you are saying it not supported by the rules at all, where are you getting this from?
If they are a Magical Beast Day 1 in all ways they are a Magical Beast, there is no such thing as Kind of a Monster Type..
All a Mount is is a Regular Animal who's gets special stuff with the Bond, to include an icrease in Int, they just don't come out of no where poof with a 6 int, before there they had a regular starting Animal Int, just like any starting animal.
They are in no way a Magical Beats before level 11, If they where it would say so, and there would be no need for the level 11 ability.
Edit: I want someone to point exactly in the rules it says a Paladins Mount is a Magical Beast before level 11
