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When in doubt, use this simple formula:
Vital Strike, by the RAW, does not apply in any situation which might possibly make it worthwhile to spend a feat on it.
It doesn't work on a charge, or with Cleave, or Spring Attack, or haste, or anything else you can think of, except a standard attack. Even then, it's not worth a feat unless your weapon is already the size of the Death Star.
Which is why I houserule VS to simply be a function of BAB, so everyone gets it. Basically, at the appropriate BAB, you get the feat for free. Nice and easy. I also allow it to work with Spring Attack.
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Hmm... Tanglefoot bag range increment of 10; large demon 60ft away with elevation and Fly speed of Officially Freaking Ridiculous. I'm -10 minimum to hit with my ranged-touch, and it's going to laugh off the DC 15 Reflex save anyway. ....think I'll go with the 3d10 cold-iron HxB bolt -- damage is damage; and every bit hurts. Then drop the HxB and re-equip the glaive.
Why don't I ready a melee attack if it swoops in again? Because the demon is intelligent, and will choose to attack someone else if it sees me readying. Coup de grace a helpless, unconscious ally? Naw, those chaotic-evil creatures would never do that....
(In the particular battle, to win I had to present the appearance of being someone who would lose a battle of attrition, thereby keeping the demon focused on me rather than my allies. I won because I had Combat Reflexes, and it didn't know that -- which later resulted in an extra smack which brought it down.)
Yea nice call AlanM adding that to my list of combat techniques (power attack, deadly aim, & expertise) that anyone with the appropriate BAB can pull off.
I haven't played with Vital Strike as a feat but I don't see it as useless and it seems to get a lot of negative press. To me, it's just another tactical option. When you have Cleave, it depends on another target being within reach. Vital strike is always an option on those rounds where you are denied the full attack option, it's a nice way to move in and start with a large hit then either you'll get a full attack option or the monster will actively deny you full attack options.
I think as a fighter you could take Cleave and go down the Vital strike line (or not) and now you have two options, hit harder against single target on the move/attack round or when two targets are present, use Cleave.
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I allow Vital Strike to be used on Full Attack actions a well in my game and used in with Spring Attack. The wording of the feat only allows doubling on the first attack. Odd that they put that part in there when technically you can use it like that.
This is the way I use the feat as well. As RAW, we are off the reservation perhaps, but as written the feat is basically useless. By treating the feat in this way, melee characters can keep up with damage output without having to min/max everything.
Vital strike increases your damage every time you have to move more than 5 feet to close with an opponent, and choose to attack to deal damage *as opposed to a combat maneuver*.
Hardly useless.
Everytime that you move more than 5 feet but didn't charge, nor used spring attack, nor used cleave, nor used pinpoint targeting, nor used anything that you would use when you move and attack.
Don't get me wrong, i would think this feat a good additions to a fighter's (in the general sense) arsenal if the vital was allowed to work with the above things (or things like them).
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Everytime that you move more than 5 feet but didn't charge, nor used spring attack, nor used cleave, nor used pinpoint targeting, nor used anything that you would use when you move and attack.
Don't get me wrong, i would think this feat a good additions to a fighter's (in the general sense) arsenal if the vital was allowed to work with the above things (or things like them).
By that reasoning, cleave is equally useless, so is pinpoint targeting, and anything else. Or, applying the same logic, equally useful. Self-inconsistent.
By that reasoning, cleave is equally useless, so is pinpoint targeting, and anything else. Or, applying the same logic, equally useful. Self-inconsistent.Everytime that you move more than 5 feet but didn't charge, nor used spring attack, nor used cleave, nor used pinpoint targeting, nor used anything that you would use when you move and attack.
Don't get me wrong, i would think this feat a good additions to a fighter's (in the general sense) arsenal if the vital was allowed to work with the above things (or things like them).
I don't like cleave because it depends too much on the DM and somewhat on the enviroment (but mostly to the DM).
I think that pinpoint targeting is a good feat (for that one time you might need it) to have but take it only if you really have a feat to spare.I am of the opinion that feats that require a standart action to use (and not be a part of a standart action) aren't too good, the problem with vital strike is that it's not a single feat, it's a chain of feats, and you really don't get much out of it unless you have dragon-sized weapon in your hand.
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Everytime that you move more than 5 feet but didn't charge, nor used spring attack, nor used cleave, nor used pinpoint targeting, nor used anything that you would use when you move and attack.Vital Strike is made for "crowded corridor" fights where full-attacks, charging and cleaving are often impossible because of the shear number of bodies constantly in the way. It's a "cheap" feat without a lot of extraneous prerequisites, and applies to any weapon.
Don't get me wrong, i would think this feat a good additions to a fighter's (in the general sense) arsenal if the vital was allowed to work with the above things (or things like them).
And then people would complain that it's broke or too cheap (in terms of prerequisites) -- and it would be.
Vital Strike is something good for a sniper (single attack per round when sniping) and scout (skirmisher gets the sneak attack damage after moving, usually getting only one attack).
A sniper using a large heavy crossbow (assuming you are enlarged to be able to wield it properly), and gravity bow cast on them, would be shooting 3d8 + sneak attack damage shots. Vital Strike line makes that 6d8 and 9d8 damage (and 12d8 if you give up 4 rogue levels and 2d6 sneak attack damage for a full BAB class to qualify for greater vital strike).
Sniping isn't the best for party tactics (especially if you do it far enough away to give your enemies a major penalty to seeing you). It'd make a great combo for an NPC encounter, especially assassination attempts against the PCs.
For the scout, you'll still probably want to work towards Spring Attack so you don't have to stay in full attack range all the time, so while Vital Strike "would have been nice", it's probably still a no-go for that reason.
Although I also remember hearing about one developer saying that Vital Strike probably "should" work with Spring Attack (or at least that they'd let it work in their games).
Nothing was changed RAW-wise though, it was a single dev's opinion on the matter. There isn't even a FAQ about it.
Although I also remember hearing about one developer saying that Vital Strike probably "should" work with Spring Attack (or at least that they'd let it work in their games).
Nothing was changed RAW-wise though, it was a single dev's opinion on the matter. There isn't even a FAQ about it.
Thats because Spring Attack has been officially eratta'ed and therefore is no longer a FAQ on it. someone wiht better search-fu than mine could probably find you the posts where Jason sets out the ruling on these forums. but here is what the PRD says:
Spring Attack (Combat)
You can deftly move up to a foe, strike, and withdraw before he can react.Prerequisites: Dex 13, Dodge, Mobility, base attack bonus +4.
Benefit: As a full-round action, you can move up to your speed and make a single melee attack without provoking any attacks of opportunity from the target of your attack. You can move both before and after the attack, but you must move at least 10 feet before the attack and the total distance that you move cannot be greater than your speed. You cannot use this ability to attack a foe that is adjacent to you at the start of your turn.
Normal: You cannot move before and after an attack.
It is its own special monster and not vital strike -able
Thats because Spring Attack has been officially eratta'ed and therefore is no longer a FAQ on it.
I meant in the sense that a Dev said he'd okay it... Despite someone saying that, there's no question as to the RAW on it: by the rules, the combo isn't allowed.
The "there isn't a FAQ on it" means it's not even a question as to whether it's allowed or not. I was reinforcing the RAW, even as I was offering a differing opinion.
I meant in the sense that a Dev said he'd okay it... Despite someone saying that, there's no question as to the RAW on it: by the rules, the combo isn't allowed.
The "there isn't a FAQ on it" means it's not even a question as to whether it's allowed or not. I was reinforcing the RAW, even as I was offering a differing opinion.
Ahh I understand now my apolgies.
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James Jacobs said in a post that Vital strike was made to work spring attack. It seems to me that the same people who always slam any fighter feat combo do not do the same vs, caster feats I don't see any of the rules lawyes on this thread bagging any meta magic feats
that are far more powerful than the vital strike chain.
The rules lawers that b#@%@ about this feat chain have to remember that
we are talking about 4 to 6 feats that have a geat deal of prereqs. for any other class than fighter we are talking about usng most of that classes feats of the 20 levels of the class
It seems to me that James Jacobs and the other Devs need to sit down and put the heads together and make a definitive ruling if the Spring attack vital strike feat combo works together.
In the same vein sniping seems to obviaate the shoot on the run feat chain and this needs this be looked at by the DEVS. The Devs also need to make a ruling if Vital strke works with the Shoot on the Run
feat chian.
James Jacobs said in a post that Vital strike was made to work spring attack. It seems to me that the same people who always slam any fighter feat combo do not do the same vs, caster feats I don't see any of the rules lawyes on this thread bagging any meta magic feats
that are far more powerful than the vital strike chain.The rules lawers that b~~$! about this feat chain have to remember that
we are talking about 4 to 6 feats that have a geat deal of prereqs. for any other class than fighter we are talking about usng most of that classes feats of the 20 levels of the classIt seems to me that James Jacobs and the other Devs need to sit down and put the heads together and make a definitive ruling if the Spring attack vital strike feat combo works together.
In the same vein sniping seems to obviaate the shoot on the run feat chain and this needs this be looked at by the DEVS. The Devs also need to make a ruling if Vital strke works with the Shoot on the Run
feat chian.
Can you give us a link to James Jacobs post? Because as it stands now vital strike clearly doesn't work with spring attack (since spring attack is a full round action).
James on Vital Strike.
Thank you TOZ for the link, although after reading some of the thread, i think that this thread (and James post) was made before the errata that made spring attack a full round action.
So they simply changed their minds, in fact (after reading a little more) i might re-change, because at first James thought that it shouldn't work.Anyway, whatever happened, now spring attack doesn't work with vital strike. Is that a bad thing or a good thing? i am not going into that again, so i am going to let anyone decide for themselves.