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I'm yelling power creep at the idea of "throw more spells at it!"
There are several other general points made that I'm not adverse to in this thread -- but throw more spells at it is one that I am adverse too.
Now if the cleric was to go more the way of the bard that wouldn't hurt my feelings any.
Unfortunately, there are enough people here who oppose the expansion of domain powers or channel energy that "throw more spells at it" is the only other short term solution available. I personally think it should be a mix of tweaking the spell list, domain powers, and other abilities all at the same time, but that would take a lot of time and effort. "Throw more spells at it," is quick, it deals with the one truly customizable feature of the class, and at least for the short term, is the one of the few things that can be done within the current framework. I agree that it not the best long term solution, but for the short term, it's just about the only thing available.
Most of the higher level cleric spells are situational and that is right for me.
The cleric have "a thing" (pro or against) for undead, outsiders and opposite alignment and their spells should reflect that.Instead most of the of the people asking for more spells seem to want exactly the opposite, more spells useful against any kind of opponent. That way, for me, you are turning the cleric in a wizard photocopy.
A house rule I used in 3.5 was to give a divine/profane bonus instead of resistance/deflection to all cleric spells that mention an alignment.
Using that kind of approach (and making the bonus non operative against the people of the right alignment) will keep the "polarized" flavour I like in clerics while allowing them to stack some extra buff in the right situation thanks to the different bonus.
That will take care of some of the highest levels spells problems.
Buffing the cleric through spells, domain powers or other things to make him more efficient against every kind of enemy is the wrong path in my eyes.
The cleric have "a thing" (pro or against) for undead, outsiders and opposite alignment and their spells should reflect that.
But they are not that good.
I agree with you. Clerics should not be wizards or get wizard like spells, but I don't think most people here wants cleric to be as wizards.
Instead most of the of the people asking for more spells seem to want exactly the opposite, more spells useful against any kind of opponent. That way, for me, you are turning the cleric in a wizard photocopy.
A house rule I used in 3.5 was to give a divine/profane bonus instead of resistance/deflection to all cleric spells that mention an alignment.
Using that kind of approach (and making the bonus non operative against the people of the right alignment) will keep the "polarized" flavour I like in clerics while allowing them to stack some extra buff in the right situation thanks to the different bonus.
That will take care of some of the highest levels spells problems.
I like that :-)
Edit: But again this isn't a house rule thread - no sark remark intended.
Buffing the cleric through spells, domain powers or other things to make him more efficient against every kind of enemy is the wrong path in my eyes.
Edit:
Again, I don't think people here want that. That said a good cleric that is only efficient against Undeads, evil outsiders and evil creatures sounds like a Paladin to me.
Don't take this as a snark remark (because it isn't), but we did agree that Channel doesn't scale that well. Cure spells sure don't scale well.
What I meant by their abilities scaling was in terms of things like domain powers, and yes, spells. While it's true that most healing spells don't scale well, most of their spells do. Clerics tend to have some of the better buff spells, and increased durations are nice. Likewise, spells like Divine Favor (or was it Power?) get progressively better. Spells like Animate Dead get better as well (definitely one of the best clerical spells, as it's available to them 2 levels earlier than wizards and stays useful forever). Channel does scale, but I consider channel more of a gimme than a real consideration (except in situations where you can chain-channel with multiple clerics).
Sure channel can be great if you house rule changes same with cure spells, but this isn't a house rule thread.
Agreed.
As for Cleric spells, some scale but a lot of their spells actually don't scale well (or not at all). Agree resist energy and protection from energy scales nice, but most spell casting classes get those spells.
It's true that clerics get few spells that have much scaling beyond duration and range. I think what they need most of all is better healing spells.
Divine favor scale some, and divine power scales some but both was hit by the nerf bat (thanks god).
Greater Magic Weapon and Magic Vestment scale some but was nerfed in 3.5 and Greater Magic Weapon was nerfed even more in Pathfinder since it now only bypass DR magic (good nerf I guess). Both spells are also on the Sorcerer /Wizard spell list and they get GMW as a 3rd level spell.
Magic Vestment is a Sor/Wiz spell?
As for domain powers most of them don't scale that well (Icicle, Aura of Protection, etc) and/or takes a standard action to activate (Inspiring Word, etc). Fire/acid Resistance, etc are nice but with resist energy you only save a spell or some healing.
Some domain powers like Liberation, Sun and Travel Domain are great, but not because they scale, but because the powers are good from the start.
Gaining more uses is what I generally mean by the scaling thing. Good effects more often.
Again to me it's not a matter of more power....well with the exception I would like some more healing spells and better channeling :-)
Again, no sark remark intended.
I didn't find your post snarky in the least. ^.^
And yes, healing spells definitely need an overhaul. As they are, they're bad as spells and worse as magic items. In-combat healing is something that is not currently a great tactic until you get access to heal at level 13, and even then you cannot spontaneously cast it.There's an article on Alvena Publishing: A Look At Healing that discusses healing problems.
Spells like Animate Dead get better as well (definitely one of the best clerical spells, as it's available to them 2 levels earlier than wizards and stays useful forever).
I'm not familiar with it since we never use undeads (only good clerics) so we don't use that spell, but if it's good it's one of the only good scaling spells. It's not an option if you are a good Cleric or if you find undeads offensive. If you role play and channel positive energy I guess you won't create undeads.
It's true that clerics get few spells that have much scaling beyond duration and range.
Apparently we don't have the same definition of the word scaling. Perhaps my due to my poor English.
I think what they need most of all is better healing spells.
+ 0.5 ;-)
and better protection spells and more scaling. Many low level spells turns obsolete quick.
Magic Vestment is a Sor/Wiz spell?
My bad. Failed my wisdom check
Gaining more uses is what I generally mean by the scaling thing. Good effects more often.
Again, We don't have the same definition of the word scaling. No snark intended.
I didn't find your post snarky in the least. ^.^
Good, I get carried away sometimes.
Edit: Thanks for the link!edit 2:
In-combat healing is something that is not currently a great tactic until you get access to heal at level 13, and even then you cannot spontaneously cast it.
Unless your an oracle.
Clerics are fine. Flavor is subjective. RP is something people do regardless of class.
Most cure spells that aren't heal/mass heal are indeed useless in battle, though in between fights and at the end of the night are amazing. I feel the same way about channeling.
Turning in Pathfinder is actually really good because there aren't the same crappy HD requirements that there used to be, and fear is a pretty good weapon.
Their spells offer some of the best utility in the game, and they can do a bit of damage (Harm, Flame Strike, Blade Barrier)though as a class they tend to be poor controllers. I think that's one thing that separates them from the other casters in the game.
I like subdomains. i think they provide some interesting options and are the only way that clerics ever get Fly, which is a big deal for anyone who actually plays their character. (We house rule that the two domains represent one from the player and one from the Deity, though sub/domains work in either context).
I've heard plenty of talk about how oracles are better than clerics, to me it's the same conversation as the sorc vs. wizards, it's all about what you want to play.
Note: Most of the healing spells would be better if they did something in addition to curing tiny amounts of health. For instance combining Divine Favor + Cure Whatever as a higher level spell.
I've heard plenty of talk about how oracles are better than clerics, to me it's the same conversation as the sorc vs. wizards, it's all about what you want to play.
Better is subjective, but Celic vs. Oracle is not the same thing as Wizard v.s Sorcerer. See spolier.
Wolfsnap wrote "the whole point of the Cleric class is that it's NOT specialized in any way."
In threory he is right, but just in theory.
TriOmegaZero's had a good point:
"I think the biggest problem is, the class has to be generic enough to allow clerics of any faith. Domains are supposed to make each one flavored for their faith, but you can only spare so much room for each one considering the number of domains. "
And Domains doesn't even actuallt give the cleric that much flavour. Cleric X with good domain and cleric Y with good domain have the same powers and the same domain spells.
Since the spell list is a bit boring and since she only gets 2 skills / level there isn't much room for versatility.
She needs Str, con wis and char. Dumb Int? Dump Dex?
An orcale has it easier:
Which spells to pick from the list are obvious or at least mostly obvious. At spell level +6 they are all obvious.
Most spells do not need a DC so the oracle can use scrolls if there are any spells she doesn't know.
She got 4 skills per level and don't need Int.
She got good will saves, has protection spells like Prot from Evil, and she uses char so she don't need wisdom.
She can pick utility spells like Obscuring Mist, Silence, Remove Disease or Breath or of life but she don't have to prepare them so when she needs them she can just cast them,..again and again. If she don't need it she got other stuff she can cast.
She can spontaneously cast HEAL!
With the new extra spell feat and the new human trait she gets all the spell she needs.
The sorcerer doesn't gain the same benefit vs. the wizard.
# Only 2 skills per level and Wizards use Int so they will have more skill points and better int checks.
# Arcane spell list are crammed with "I want this spell" kind of spells, so less spells know is more of a problem.
# Arcane spells rely more on DC and caster level. Even knock relies on caster level.
# Since arcane casters don't use weapons they typically use more metamagic rods or/and meta magic feats. Casting a metamagic spell takes a full round, not good if you really need to cast it right away.
# Arcane spell list have many great conjuration spells so spell focus conjuration is a good choice. Once a wizard pick that he probably will pick Augment Summoning. A sorcerer don't want that since he don't want to pick the a new summon monster spell each spell level.
I could go on.
# wizards are are less stat dependen since they don't need char.
Don't get me wrong, I like sorcerers, but wizards have more versatility that's why they are so good.
The way thing are now Oracles have more versatility than the cleric AND are less stat dependent and get more powers. A life Oracle is actually a better healer than the cleric and her Channeling is more powerful vs. undeads and eventually she will be able to channel more often than a cleric. AND she gets mass heal as a 8th level spell. In fact a life Orcale is well suited to focus on strength and become a melee character. With Combat Healer she can just go on fighting and don't worry about getting hit.
Note: Most of the healing spells would be better if they did something in addition to curing tiny amounts of health.
+1,
or/and they should cure more or/and get better high level healing spells. (5th, 7th and 8th spell levels).
I'm not familiar with it since we never use undeads (only good clerics) so we don't use that spell, but if it's good it's one of the only good scaling spells. It's not an option if you are a good Cleric or if you find undeads offensive. If you role play and channel positive energy I guess you won't create undeads.
No offense, but that seems to be a pretty narrow-minded statement. It may not be intended, but you seem to be suggesting that if A) you're a roleplayer, and B) you channel positive energy, then you won't animate undead. That's pretty false I think.
A Lawful Neutral cleric, say a cleric of Helm, or Tempus, from the Forgotten Realms would very likely channel positive energy and spontaneously cast healing spells, while also calling on their gods to send them undying warriors to aid them.
Likewise, a Cleric of Wee Jass from Grayhawk could be very much the same. In fact, this duality is in fact a great motivator of strong roleplaying, as it invokes learning and consideration for multiple views, and can put people outside of their immediate comfort zones in terms of black and white morality.
It just seems like the statement you made was very derogatory to those who are very particular about roleplaying their characters deeply, only to be told that they are "not roleplaying correctly". Just for the record.
As to scaling, YES! Animate Dead is perhaps the best scaling spell in the game. You are allotted a certain amount of Hit Dice per caster level (4HD x CL to be exact), which you can use to animate an amount of undead minions. So at 5th level, you could animate 20 1 hit dice undead (such as 20 orc warriors) or up to a single 20 HD creature (such as a 19 HD storm giant with 1 HD left over). Combining the spell with desecrate to make your undead stronger, and death knell to increase your caster level, you can produce stronger undead as needed.
A 5th level Cleric can purchase 6 oxen (using the stats for auroch herd animals) for 15 gp each (90 gp). Then, have the animals killed for meat (which you can donate to your church, an orphanage, or some other noble cause). You then take their remains and animate them as skeleton aurochs. You now have six 3HD minions who are very strong to carry your supplies for you, and to fight for you (they retain their powerful gore and trample attacks), and can be made pretty strong via desecrate.
If you are not adventuring, during your downtime you can set the undead oxen to plowing fields for farmers, hauling heavy loads, and so forth. They also make good mounts, and aren't spooked by stuff.
It's true that clerics get few spells that have much scaling beyond duration and range.Apparently we don't have the same definition of the word scaling. Perhaps my due to my poor English.
I think what they need most of all is better healing spells.+ 0.5 ;-)
and better protection spells and more scaling. Many low level spells turns obsolete quick.
This is one of the reasons I like psionics. Stuff never becomes obsolete. You might have to pay more to use it, but you never stop using the same powers you were using at 1st level, throughout your career.
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The cleric have "a thing" (pro or against) for undead, outsiders and opposite alignment and their spells should reflect that.
I agree, I think that Clerics should be (hands down) best at affecting Undead, Outsiders, opposing Alignments, and possibly a few other creatures based on their faith. I personally even think Abberaions should be a Cleric thing, in all honesty. That being said, they currently ARE NOT best or even that great against any of these things.
Wizards have better stuff in general for undead, besides healing. Controling, creating, fighting, etc. . . Wizard Necromancers, (and non-Necromancers at that are generally better at Necromancy than Clerics). Not to mention Smite Evil, and possibly Favored Enemy. Even Druids can be pretty awesome at fighting Undead.
Outsiders, again, for the most part, Wizards to a point Druids, as just better all around. Opposing Alignment, not really how sure anyone can gauge this. Obviously many of the signature "Cleric" spells for alignment like Holy Word are bad. But almost all casters get Prot from Evil. Like Undead, Clerics should hands-down be better at banishing/summoning alignment outsiders, but most not only offer a Will Save, but also SR, so there is little point on even trying many of these spells on a halfway worthy target.
Especially with the Lovecraftian themes and intentions for Abberations, I see no reason for this not to also be a Cleric thing, particularly in PF. Dark, evil (druidish) cults. Unknowable things that want to devour body and soul. Corruption embodied. Lose of sanity/faith/morality. Elder gods that want to take over all. The Druid and Arcane anti-Abberation theme of other setting just seems very forced to me.
I agree, I think that Clerics should be (hands down) best at affecting Undead, Outsiders, opposing Alignments, and possibly a few other creatures based on their faith. I personally even think Abberaions should be a Cleric thing, in all honesty.
So, what, 90% of the stuff you fight, especially at midlevels and higher? I don't think that's reasonable.
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90%? Animals, Plants, Monsterous Humanoids, Giants, Humans and other core races, Drow, Dragons (mid+), etc. . .
There is a lot of Nuetral in there as well, so not even the oppossing Alignment is 90%. Do you mean organized play?
If that where anywhere near true, I guess Rangers would be set with such a small choice of enemies to pick.
90%? Animals, Plants, Monsterous Humanoids, Giants, Humans and other core races, Drow, Dragons (mid+), etc. . .
Largely disappear from higher levels, rare, evil, evil, evil, evil, evil, and evil, in that order.
I'm not familiar with it since we never use undeads (only good clerics) so we don't use that spell, but if it's good it's one of the only good scaling spells. It's not an option if you are a good Cleric or if you find undeads offensive. If you role play and channel positive energy I guess you won't create undeads.No offense, but that seems to be a pretty narrow-minded statement. It may not be intended, but you seem to be suggesting that if A) you're a roleplayer, and B) you channel positive energy, then you won't animate undead. That's pretty false I think.
My bold.
So far all of us have only played Good Clerics. We do use neutral characters (LN) but not Clerics. So I don't have much knowledge on neutral clerics. So no need to use statements like "narrow-minded"That said you're missing the point. To prove your case (that clerics have spells that scale well) you use Animate Dead as an example. My point was that spell is off limit to all playing good clerics and those Neutral clerics who find undead offensive. That's a lot of players if not most all players since most players don't play evil characters. Both Jason and James have repeatedly said the game is not designed for evil parties. The basic premises is you are heroes.
It just seems like the statement you made was very derogatory to those who are very particular about roleplaying their characters deeply, only to be told that they are "not roleplaying correctly"..
I never said that and didn't implied that. Calm down.
You on the other hand are pick out gravel as proof of mountains. One spell scaling is no proof of a good spell list. Especially when the spell you build your whole argument on is off limit to a lot of players, that is: if you are good or if your deity is good or if your find undeads offensive (of if your DM have objections, not common perhaps).Combining the spell with desecrate to make your undead stronger, and death knell to increase your caster level, you can produce stronger undead as needed. "
Also spells that are off limit to a lot of players.
As to scaling, YES! Animate Dead is perhaps the best scaling spell in the game.
So we now can agree scaling is not more uses per day or adding to duration, etc. And not all cleric spells do increase their duration, Divine Favor don't. Most spells with duration longer that instantaneous increase their duration. That goes for all casters, arcane and divine. As for more uses per day, be it spells or other powers, that don't help if the spell/power grows obsolete quick.
I'm not familiar with it since we never use undeads (only good clerics) so we don't use that spell, but if it's good it's one of the only good scaling spells. It's not an option if you are a good Cleric or if you find undeads offensive. If you role play and channel positive energy I guess you won't create undeads.No offense, but that seems to be a pretty narrow-minded statement. It may not be intended, but you seem to be suggesting that if A) you're a roleplayer, and B) you channel positive energy, then you won't animate undead. That's pretty false I think.My bold.
So far all of us have only played Good Clerics. We do use neutral characters (LN) but not Clerics. So I don't have much knowledge on neutral clerics. So no need to use statements like "narrow-minded".
It does sound like a narrow-minded statement, not because of "good clerics or of you find undead offensive", but because of the second sentence which I addressed.
Specifically, "If you role play and channel positive energy [b]I guess you won't create undeads."[/b] you are (perhaps unintentionally) implying that if your cleric channels positive energy then you cannot cast animate dead or wouldn't, because you wouldn't be a roleplayer/roleplaying correctly. I addressed this concern in my last post, and warned that it sounded narrow-minded, to which you may wish to re-evaluate or clarify if you meant it as such.
That said you're missing the point. To prove your case (that clerics have spells that scale well) you use Animate Dead as an example. My point was that spell is off limit to all playing good clerics and those Neutral clerics who find undead offensive. That's a lot of players if not most all players since most players don't play evil characters. Both Jason and James have repeatedly said the game is not designed for evil parties. The basic premises is you are heroes.
To be fair, 6 out of the 9 alignments of clerics can cast animate dead, and 3 of them are not evil. That's Lawful Neutral, Neutral, Chaotic Neutral, Lawful Evil, Neutral Evil, and Chaotic Evil. Several of the Pathfinder iconics are Neutral. Amiri the beloved iconic barbarian is Chaotic Neutral and slaughtered her tribes folk in a fit of anger, with a giant's sword that she dishonestly claimed to make herself look good. That's X counts of second degree murder.
[spoiler="Relevant Story"]The warband headed up into the Kodar foothills, and it wasn't long before they found evidence of giants. One morning, the leader of the band rushed into camp, waving a dagger the size of a man's arm over his head. The warrior claimed to have single-handedly slain a giant and to have taken his dagger, and the others in the band congratulated him on his skill and bravery. Amiri took the bait, and announced that she would return by sundown with an even greater weapon. She could have no way of knowing that the dagger was part of the deception—that the warband had brought it with them as a prop to incite her into a foolish plan.
What the warband themselves didn't anticipate was that Amiri would find a frost giant. After wandering the mountains, she came to an immense body at the foot of a cliff—the giant had fallen to his death weeks before, and at his side lay his immense bastard sword. Although Amiri knew that she had not killed the giant, she also knew that all she needed was his sword as proof—certainly her kin wouldn't think to dispute her claim with such a grand trophy. Yet when she returned to the place she had left her kin, she found the camp empty. Concerned, worried that they had fallen victim to the region's dangers, she tracked them, catching up with the warband halfway back to the tribal camp. As she approached the camp, though, she realized something was amiss—they were talking of her, and they were laughing.
Creeping unseen to the edge of the camp, she realized that she had been duped. She heard her kin mocking her ways, of how she had fallen for their ruse, and how even now she was likely cooking in a giant's stewpot. That they seemed grateful and so at ease with her death was not what enraged Amiri. It was the proof that her own people thought of her as a fool that did it. Eyes blazing, Amiri stepped into the camp and held her new sword out, proclaiming that even now she had bested them. The other warriors, shocked to see her alive, quickly fell back to laughter, pointing out that she could hardly wield such an ungainly weapon. Her fury growing, Amiri hefted the weapon and tried to adopt a menacing pose, but the weapon's size threw her off balance and she toppled over, much to the other barbarian's growing amusement.
It was enough. With a roar, Amiri leapt back to her feet. Her rage filled her body, clouded her vision, stole over her soul. Two of the barbarians had been decapitated by her immense sword before they realized that death had come. The battle was swift and brutal, with Amiri not noticing the blows that landed on her, simply stepping from one traitor to the next and cutting them down.
So I don't really care if Jason or James say that the game is intended only for good-aligned parties, because there's nothing in any of their published material that I have seen that makes that makes that so. Their adventure paths tend to be pretty dark, their iconics often of questionable morality, and so forth. Hell, there's a really great Pathfinder art of the iconic sorceress floating/meditating in what appears to be a Cheliaxian summoning chamber as the cleric looks on with apparent concern as the fiendish looking lady next to the sorceress seems to be overseeing her training.
If you say one thing, and show me another, I'm going with what you show me. Let us not speak of such things without looking at them logically, and making sure we approach them with rational thought. It is hard to say that "Pathfinder is good-aligned" when there are so many examples of how this isn't a truth.
It just seems like the statement you made was very derogatory to those who are very particular about roleplaying their characters deeply, only to be told that they are "not roleplaying correctly"..I never said that and didn't implied that. Calm down.
You on the other hand are pick out gravel as proof of mountains. One spell scaling is no proof of a good spell list. Especially when the spell you build your whole argument on is off limit to a lot of players, that is: if you are good or if your deity is good or if your find undeads offensive (of if your DM have objections, not common perhaps).
As for implications, see quote 1 of this post.
Likewise, animate dead was not the only spell I mentioned. Stuff like divine favor, and divine power become stronger as you gain levels. Meanwhile, it's true that many cleric spells do not scale in their effects in a huge way (outside of caster-scaling), but most of a cleric's spells are buff spells or penalty spells which do not easily scale outside of growing save DCs which occurs as your wisdom increases and with uses of Heighten Spell.I'm in the agreement that cleric spells don't generally scale perfectly. However, what exactly would you like to see for clerical casting? I mean, most of the "scaling" spells as you describe them are sorcerer/wizard spells, and most of them revolve around dealing damage; so what is it that you want to see more of?
Also spells that are off limit to a lot of players.
Off limits to 3 out of 9 alignments, you mean.
So we now can agree scaling is not more uses per day or adding to duration, etc. And not all cleric spells do increase their duration, Divine Favor don't. Most spells with duration longer that instantaneous increase their duration. That goes for all casters, arcane and divine. As for more uses per day, be it spells or other powers, that don't help if the spell/power grows obsolete quick.
Again, I think you should try psionics. The reason 1st level spells become obsolete is because they're not supposed to compete with higher level spells, but instead be stuff you use when you don't wanna waste "real spells" on your current tasks. Psionics works a bit differently. You have a certain amount of power (you could call it mana if you want) that you can spend on your powers. Most powers have ways to "augment" them, allowing you to spend greater amounts of power on them to improve their effects. Thus at 1st level, you might spend 1 point to shoot a ray that deals 1d6+1 fire damage, while at 20th level you could spend 1 to 20 points to deal 1d6+1 to 20d6+20 fire damage.
Or you can spend more power to get buffs off faster, heal more damage, or whatever. Ultimately, you never stop using your low level stuff; you just spend the equivalent to higher level slots to make them stronger. It's a beautiful and well-balanced system.
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I think the biggest problem is, the class has to be generic enough to allow clerics of any faith. Domains are supposed to make each one flavored for their faith, but you can only spare so much room for each one considering the number of domains. You can't add specific class features to the class progression, like armor training, because not every cleric trains in armor.
the domains in the Beta had a lot of flavor, it was lost when they made them nothing but extra spells...
Personally that was one of the reason that turned me from Pathfinder, I decided to give a chance, but in the end with other thignsshowed me PF was not a game for me.
It does sound like a narrow-minded statement, not because of "good clerics or of you find undead offensive", but because of the second sentence which I addressed.
I meant that if you channel possitve energy you may find undeads offensiv (find undeads offensiv/against her moral or ethical beliefs). Sorry about the bad allusion.
If you use possitive energy = hurting undeads and you find undead offensiv and you still use animate dead beacuse it's a powerful spell, then you don't play your role well. Then you are just a powergamer (in the bad sence of the word) IMHO.
If you don't find undead offensiv then go ahead.
I agree not all players have the same view and as I pointed out I don't know much about neutral clerics.
To be fair, 6 out of the 9 alignments of clerics can cast animate dead, and 3 of them are not evil
To be fair, 6 out of the 9 alignments don't equal 6 out of 9 clerics.
Good cleric can't cast itNeutral cleric with a good deity can't use it
neutral clerics that hate undeads or find undeads offensive or/and against her moral or ethical beliefs won't cast it.
And my guess evil clerics are in a minority.
Animate dead is off limit to a lot of players either because they are good, their deity is good or they don't like undeads/it's against her moral or ethical beliefs. Only you (or the DM in some games) can decide if it's against her moral or ethical beliefs, not me.
Amiri the beloved iconic barbarian is Chaotic Neutral and slaughtered her tribes folk in a fit of anger, with a giant's sword that she dishonestly claimed to make herself look good.
I'm not sure what Amir's evil deeds has do with this. There are even evil iconics. I'm not saying you can't play an evil character or that it's wrong. My point was, vague I as it might have been, only a minority of all players play evil characters. That leaves good and neutral clerics. Some neutral will use animate dead some won't. Either because their deity is good or because casting animate dead is against her moral or ethical beliefs.
Off limits to 3 out of 9 alignments, you mean.
No I mean off limit to a lot of players.
3 out of 9 alignments doesn't equal 3 out 9 clerics.
There are 20 gods, 7 are good, 7 are neutral and 6 are evil and then there are those clerics that are not devoted to a particular deity.
Then there are Neutral clerics devoted to a good god.
Stuff like divine favor, and divine power become stronger as you gain levels.
I know. I said so myself. I also said they have been nerfed and that they are some of the few spells that actualy scale.
I'm in the agreement that cleric spells don't generally scale perfectly. However, what exactly would you like to see for clerical casting?
I have already said that is most of my posts in this thread. I also said I don't want more power. This thread is not about power but generics. New spells is not the only fix or even the best fix, but it's one way to go since Paizo probably won't redesign the cleric anytime soon.
New feat might also be a fix or new archetypes, where you lose something and gain something else.
I mean, most of the "scaling" spells as you describe them are sorcerer/wizard spells, and most of them revolve around dealing damage; so what is it that you want to see more of?
No, I don't like damage dealing spells. Something also have said. Healing, protection, versatility, etc. is more to my liking. And some low level spells that can still be used at higher levels. Ant Haul is an example of this. Not saying if its good or a bad spell, but as an example.
I agree with Abraham. Just giving clerics free bonus feats and more skill per level and more domain powers with no cost at all is actually absurd. At the same time I still think making it a bit more fun and fixing some of the crappy stuff can't be wrong.
I agree, I think that Clerics should be (hands down) best at affecting Undead, Outsiders, opposing Alignments, and possibly a few other creatures based on their faith. I personally even think Abberaions should be a Cleric thing, in all honesty.So, what, 90% of the stuff you fight, especially at midlevels and higher? I don't think that's reasonable.
+1.
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+1.I agree, I think that Clerics should be (hands down) best at affecting Undead, Outsiders, opposing Alignments, and possibly a few other creatures based on their faith. I personally even think Abberaions should be a Cleric thing, in all honesty.So, what, 90% of the stuff you fight, especially at midlevels and higher? I don't think that's reasonable.
Who are you agreeing with? I don't think that those creatures are anywhere need 90% of encounters, but all do fit very well with the concept of the holy man, divine crusader, ff style white mage, or devoted priest Cleric types. I am not saying that Clerics need be uber poowerful against them, but I do believe strongly that the Cleric should have stronger option to either control/create or fight against than the other classes. Less the oppossing alignments, because I think I mean something a little different than you?
I mean against things that are not only dramatically oppossed, but also more along the lines of embodying that alignment. Outsiders with alignment subtypes, possessing creatures, and "master" undead/oppossing Clerics (Oracles, Antipaladins or Paladins).
+1.I agree, I think that Clerics should be (hands down) best at affecting Undead, Outsiders, opposing Alignments, and possibly a few other creatures based on their faith. I personally even think Abberaions should be a Cleric thing, in all honesty.So, what, 90% of the stuff you fight, especially at midlevels and higher? I don't think that's reasonable.Who are you agreeing with? I don't think that those creatures are anywhere need 90% of encounters, but all do fit very well with the concept of the holy man, divine crusader, ff style white mage, or devoted priest Cleric types. I am not saying that Clerics need be uber poowerful against them, but I do believe strongly that the Cleric should have stronger option to either control/create or fight against than the other classes. Less the oppossing alignments, because I think I mean something a little different than you?
I mean against things that are not only dramatically oppossed, but also more along the lines of embodying that alignment. Outsiders with alignment subtypes, possessing creatures, and "master" undead/oppossing Clerics (Oracles, Antipaladins or Paladins).
Aside from all that Paladins already do this.
Who are you agreeing with? I don't think that those creatures are anywhere need 90% of encounters, but all do fit very well with the concept of the holy man, divine crusader, ff style white mage, or devoted priest Cleric types. I am not saying that Clerics need be uber poowerful against them, but I do believe strongly that the Cleric should have stronger option to either control/create or fight against than the other classes. Less the oppossing alignments, because I think I mean something a little different than you?
I mean against things that are not only dramatically oppossed, but also more along the lines of embodying that alignment. Outsiders with alignment subtypes, possessing creatures, and "master" undead/oppossing Clerics (Oracles, Antipaladins or Paladins).
I agree with dire mongoose.
And moreover I just wonder what a class with selective channel, summons, planar ally, save or sucks, powerful buffs and similar stuff should heve more to be good in affecting the aforementioned types of monsters.
Aside from all that Paladins already do this.
Yep.
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+1.I agree, I think that Clerics should be (hands down) best at affecting Undead, Outsiders, opposing Alignments, and possibly a few other creatures based on their faith. I personally even think Abberaions should be a Cleric thing, in all honesty.So, what, 90% of the stuff you fight, especially at midlevels and higher? I don't think that's reasonable.Who are you agreeing with? I don't think that those creatures are anywhere need 90% of encounters, but all do fit very well with the concept of the holy man, divine crusader, ff style white mage, or devoted priest Cleric types. I am not saying that Clerics need be uber poowerful against them, but I do believe strongly that the Cleric should have stronger option to either control/create or fight against than the other classes. Less the oppossing alignments, because I think I mean something a little different than you?
I mean against things that are not only dramatically oppossed, but also more along the lines of embodying that alignment. Outsiders with alignment subtypes, possessing creatures, and "master" undead/oppossing Clerics (Oracles, Antipaladins or Paladins).
Mostly it would be interesting if there were versions of the anti-alignment/anti-outsiders spells specifically affecting "enemies of the faith", with the deity you follow determining what is the enemy of the faith.
Giving clerics the options to better influence what your faith consider "abominable", trading the better effect of some spell against outsider (for example) for a better effects against abominations, or fey or whatever your faith hate would be a nice way to customize them.The spell compendium, even with all his limits on spell balance, had some interesting spell in that department.
The "aligned" rains with added effect against outsiders were interesting and useful. Sadly it is no OGL so Paizo can't take them and rewrite the spell to be in line with the Pathfinder balance.
And moreover I just wonder what a class with selective channel, summons, planar ally, save or sucks, powerful buffs and similar stuff should heve more to be good in affecting the aforementioned types of monsters.
Edit:
selective channel? To get selective channeling you must spend afeat and channeling is just saving CLW wands at level +5.summons? summons are for arcane casters and summons suck at many levels. At higher levels DR will often be a problem. Since clerics, unlike arcane casters, have few or no good conjuration spells Augment Summoning is not a good option.
Save or suck?
A) Most clerics don't have a high wisdom, so saves it not that big of a problem.
B) most spells are ’save and damage half ' or even 'save and negates (Blade Barrier) or only affects lower HD than cleric and have SR and saves. Most spells vs. powerful undeads and outsider are too weak or just useless.
powerful buffs? What powerful buffs?
Bless/Prayer? - grow useless/weak quick
Resist Energy/Prot from energy - All core spell classes except the bard has it.
Bull’s Strength - suck at higher levels.
PFE/Magic C. against evil - wizards/sorcerers got them too.
Death ward - hit hard with the nerfbat (but still fine)
Freedom of Movement:- still great
greater magic weapon - nerfed and wizards/sorcerers get it earlier.
Divine favor and divine power - self buffs only and both was hit with the nerf bat.
Heroes’ Feast - was hit hard with the nerf bat.
Holy Aura - suck.
But if you by buff mean bonus to attack/attack and damage clerics only got Bless, Prayer, Bull’s Strength, Divine favor, divine power, greater magic weapon. Perhaps I've missed some spell but not that many more. Most of them have been nerfed or grow useless quick.
If you want buffs call your local bard. Heck even a wizard/sorcerers is better.
Mostly it would be interesting if there were versions of the anti-alignment/anti-outsiders spells specifically affecting "enemies of the faith", with the deity you follow determining what is the enemy of the faith.
Giving clerics the options to better influence what your faith consider "abominable", trading the better effect of some spell against outsider (for example) for a better effects against abominations, or fey or whatever your faith hate would be a nice way to customize them.
+ 777
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Aside from all that Paladins already do this.
That's sort of my point. I do not see any reason for the Paladin to be stepping on the Clerics toes in this way. PF Paladins are awesome. I would even say overpowered. Especially for that 90%, I don't agree with. But in many ways they have severely engrossed into Cleric territory.
And moreover I just wonder what a class with selective channel, summons, planar ally, save or sucks, powerful buffs and similar stuff should heve more to be good in affecting the aforementioned types of monsters.Edit:
selective channel? To get selective channeling you must spend afeat and channeling is just saving CLW wands at level +5.summons? summons are for arcane casters and summons suck at many levels. At higher levels DR will often be a problem. Since clerics, unlike arcane casters, have few or no good conjuration spells Augment Summoning is not a good option.
Save or suck?
A) Most clerics don't have a high wisdom, so saves it not that big of a problem.
B) most spells are ’save and damage half ' or even 'save and negates (Blade Barrier) or only affects lower HD than cleric and have SR and saves. Most spells vs. powerful undeads and outsider are too weak or just useless.powerful buffs? What powerful buffs?
Bless/Prayer? - grow useless/weak quick
Resist Energy/Prot from energy - All core spell classes except the bard has it.
Bull’s Strength - suck at higher levels.
PFE/Magic C. against evil - wizards/sorcerers got them too.
Death ward - hit hard with the nerfbat (but still fine)
Freedom of Movement:- still great
greater magic weapon - nerfed and wizards/sorcerers get it earlier.
Divine favor and divine power - self buffs only and both was hit with the nerf bat.
Heroes’ Feast - was hit hard with the nerf bat.
Holy Aura - suck.But if you by buff mean bonus to attack/attack and damage clerics only got Bless, Prayer, Bull’s Strength, Divine favor, divine power, greater magic weapon. Perhaps I've missed some spell but not that many more. Most of them have been nerfed or grow useless quick.
If you want buffs call your local bard. Heck even a wizard/sorcerers is better.
This thread has inspired me to expand the "quest spell" idea that I've been using for clerics for years now. I really think the best way a GM can help rectify these issues relative to other classes is to expand and customize the spell list. I have a Battle Cleric of Gorum in the Carrion Crown campaign I'm running at the moment. Thus, the focus of his quest spells will be buffs, combat enhancement spells,and a few damage spells that fit the God of War theme. Beckett's idea for an scaling version of Spiritual Weapon that gives you multiple weapons is an excellent idea, and I'm working on a scaling force effect that can execute combat manuvers as well.
Primarily I'm going to focus these spells on the weaker spell levels such as 7th, but instead of 1-3 quest spells total, I'm leaning towards 4-6. This is a process I will probably repeat for every campaign I DM with a cleric, so I may just go ahead work on devising quest spells for the entire Pantheon.
Another idea I plan to work on is to mitigate the lack of really effective controller cleric builds other than necromancy. Necromancer cleric builds can be very powerful, and I have both played in and run successful evil campaigns over the years, but most campaigns usually anticipate and involve good to neutral parties where a Necromancer might be a poor thematic fit in the best of circumstances. I'm thinking of a cleric variant incorporating some of the ideas of the summoner class pursuant to this, but it is going to require quite a bit of number crunching and testing before I'd make it available to pcs. Nonetheless, I think it could be a powerful alternative to the necromancer build for a controller cleric type.
This thread has inspired me to expand the "quest spell" idea that I've been using for clerics for years now. I really think the best way a GM...
And moreover I just wonder what a class with selective channel, summons, planar ally, save or sucks, powerful buffs and similar stuff should heve more to be good in affecting the aforementioned types of monsters.Edit:
selective channel? To get selective channeling you must spend afeat and channeling is just saving CLW wands at level +5.summons? summons are for arcane casters and summons suck at many levels. At higher levels DR will often be a problem. Since clerics, unlike arcane casters, have few or no good conjuration spells Augment Summoning is not a good option.
Save or suck?
A) Most clerics don't have a high wisdom, so saves it not that big of a problem.
B) most spells are ’save and damage half ' or even 'save and negates (Blade Barrier) or only affects lower HD than cleric and have SR and saves. Most spells vs. powerful undeads and outsider are too weak or just useless.powerful buffs? What powerful buffs?
Bless/Prayer? - grow useless/weak quick
Resist Energy/Prot from energy - All core spell classes except the bard has it.
Bull’s Strength - suck at higher levels.
PFE/Magic C. against evil - wizards/sorcerers got them too.
Death ward - hit hard with the nerfbat (but still fine)
Freedom of Movement:- still great
greater magic weapon - nerfed and wizards/sorcerers get it earlier.
Divine favor and divine power - self buffs only and both was hit with the nerf bat.
Heroes’ Feast - was hit hard with the nerf bat.
Holy Aura - suck.But if you by buff mean bonus to attack/attack and damage clerics only got Bless, Prayer, Bull’s Strength, Divine favor, divine power, greater magic weapon. Perhaps I've missed some spell but not that many more. Most of them have been nerfed or grow useless quick.
If you want buffs call your local bard. Heck even a wizard/sorcerers is better.
Another thing I'm considering is ways to make the "healing role" more proactive and less reactive. I'm toying with the idea of a line of ward spells that absorb x to y plus z/level damage and last 1 round/level or until the ward is breached. At higher levels, there would be mass versions of these that could affect the entire party. In the end, it may not be any more efficient than regular healing, but it will be proactive and perhaps more fun. It's at least worth a design attempt.
I meant that if you channel possitve energy you may find undeads offensiv (find undeads offensiv/against her moral or ethical beliefs). Sorry about the bad allusion.
It does sound like a narrow-minded statement, not because of "good clerics or of you find undead offensive", but because of the second sentence which I addressed.
Fair enough. I was just pointing out the implications.
If you use possitive energy = hurting undeads and you find undead offensiv and you still use animate dead beacuse it's a powerful spell, then you don't play your role well. Then you are just a powergamer (in the bad sence of the word) IMHO.
If you don't find undead offensiv then go ahead.
Them's fightin' words to some people. Are you suggesting that every neutral character that animates undead has to like it? That's like saying that good characters must like killing to do it (and paladins tend to do a lot of killing with their swords and all). For many it would be a means to an end. Likewise, wouldn't it be perfectly logical for a neutral cleric to channel positive energy (which isn't just for hurting undead but for healing the living), since it would help others? Sorry, but healing the sick and the poor and animating the remains of evildoers and using them to fight other evildoers is pretty much grade A neutral right there.
Calling people bad roleplayers and powergamers makes you look bad.
To be fair, 6 out of the 9 alignments of clerics can cast animate dead, and 3 of them are not evilTo be fair, 6 out of the 9 alignments don't equal 6 out of 9 clerics.
Good cleric can't cast it
Neutral cleric with a good deity can't use it
neutral clerics that hate undeads or find undeads offensive or/and against her moral or ethical beliefs won't cast it.
And my guess evil clerics are in a minority.
Well 2/3rds of the gods allow it, and that's not counting clerics of concepts. Somehow, I cannot bring myself to believe that evil clerics are the minority (in fact, I'd actually imagine neutral clerics are likely the most common, with good clerics being the rarest). Evil is easier to do than good. Good is the higher path, and often harder to tread.
So basically you're describing the minority. The minority being basically only good clerics of good gods, which leaves everyone else. That's a pretty large "everyone else".
Animate dead is off limit to a lot of players either because they are good, their deity is good or they don't like undeads/it's against her moral or ethical beliefs. Only you (or the DM in some games) can decide if it's against her moral or ethical beliefs, not me.
Actually, yes you. If you are creating a character, you decide her moral and ethical beliefs. That's part of creating a character and giving them life, isn't it? Characters with hopes, dreams, ambitions, motivations, and so forth. That means it's only off limits if you want it to be off limits, or your GM specifically bans the spell for some reason, which is completely meaningless to the standard.
Basically animate dead is off limits to "good", like I said. Good Clerics tend to have Good deities, or so it would seem. It seems likely that Neutral deities would probably have plenty of neutral clerics, right? That would include clerics of Wee Jass, Boccob, St. Cuthburt, Abad'hai (Grayhawk/3.x D&D), Evening Glory (Libris Mortis), Helm (Forgotten Realms), Abadar, Irori, Gozreh, Pharasma, Nethys, Gorum, and Calistria (PF/Golarion). That basically includes gods of: Cities, Wealth, Merchants, Law, Order, Justice, Nature, Oceans, Self-Perfection, Fate, Death, Prophecy, Birth, Magic, Strength, Battle, Weapons, Trickery, Lust, Revenge, Luck, Love, Beauty, Immortality.
That's a LOT of options and possibilities, and doesn't even include a single evil deity.
I'm not sure what Amir's evil deeds has do with this. There are even evil iconics. I'm not saying you can't play an evil character or that it's wrong. My point was, vague I as it might have been, only a minority of all players play evil characters. That leaves good and neutral clerics. Some neutral will use animate dead some won't. Either because their deity is good or because casting animate dead is against her moral or ethical beliefs.
It's simple. You said that Jason and James said that the game is for Good characters. That's all great and all, but it's obviously not true. Honestly, I'm not talking about evil characters - you are. Have I suggested you be evil? I don't think so. It's true some Neutral clerics won't, but then some adventurers might take vows of pacifism. That's entirely up to the player, and has nothing to do with the game itself. Not doing so, and not having the option to do so, are very different things.
Off limits to 3 out of 9 alignments, you mean.No I mean off limit to a lot of players.
3 out of 9 alignments doesn't equal 3 out 9 clerics.
There are 20 gods, 7 are good, 7 are neutral and 6 are evil and then there are those clerics that are not devoted to a particular deity.
Then there are Neutral clerics devoted to a good god.
You're right. It's probably more. Neutral clerics by their nature have to do things that are less than kosher, or else they wouldn't be neutral. Ergo, a lot of the more goodly neutral clerics are probably prone to casting stuff like animate dead, death knell, or summoning the odd fiend via summon monster I-IX if they feel the need arises. That's why they're neutral. They might not even like it, but they'll do it if it works.
Wanna know what you call a Neutral Cleric that doesn't do anything questionable? A Good Cleric.
No, I don't like damage dealing spells. Something also have said. Healing, protection, versatility, etc. is more to my liking. And some low level spells that can still be used at higher levels. Ant Haul is an example of this. Not saying if its good or a bad spell, but as an example.
I'm a bit confused here. The majority of protection spells do remain useful at higher levels, because generally they give buffs that are just as useful at low levels as high. Take death ward. It outright stops level drain, makes you immune to negative energy, gives a +4 vs Death Effects.
How about remove fear? Ends fear effects and gives a +4 vs fear for a few hours? Uhhh, that's still good.
Versatility? Clerics get everything from summoning, conjuring water, finding traps, healing, buffing, blasting, status effects (they have some rather nasty debuffs), have some SoD (though in PF it's just SoBeDamagedAlot), obscuring mist prevents sneak attacks outright, entropic shield gives 20% avoidance against all ranged attacks, hide from undead is good at all levels (and hard to get around), align weapon pierces damage reductions, silence prevents most spellcasting...
They also have spells to repair stuff (make whole), break stuff (shatter), stop poison (delay/remove poison), remove status conditions and fatigue (restoration spells), prevent rot (gentle repose), abuse a Deck of Many Things / answer questions (augury), hide alignments (undetectable alignment), walk on water (water walk), walk in water (freedom of movement), breath underwater (water breathing).
Please, explain to me how you want cleric spells to scale. For the most part, it seems that the reason most of them don't scale much is because their effects are pretty strait forward. They do X or Y, and those benefits stay good forever.
I agree with Abraham. Just giving clerics free bonus feats and more skill per level and more domain powers with no cost at all is actually absurd. At the same time I still think making it a bit more fun and fixing some of the crappy stuff can't be wrong.
That's cool and all, but you've already said you don't know much about clerics, and yet here you are talking about how they need to be changed. Please, elaborate on your desires, because I'm not getting it.
I've been thinking -- probably a dangerous thing, but it's brought me back to this topic.
I want to see the favored weapon thing go for the most part -- I agree with others that stated that it simply doesn't make sense for every god to have one.
Instead I would like to see the armor, weapon and class skills more tied to the domains chosen -- or god of worship. Doing so would allow the concepts that don't need a lot of armor or weapon choices to have more skill choices. It would definitely be a change from the current system and would make the cleric both more flexible and unique.
Also having other choices instead of simple channeling one energy type or another could be a good place to enlarge the ability pool without simply adding in more power. Perhaps having the choice of a third domain instead of channel energy could help.
I'm not liking the idea of just allowing the cleric to have full access to domain spells to prep or cast as he wills -- too many spells on those lists are 'property of arcane casters' in my opinion and thus shouldn't be widely available to all clerics of a given type -- however I do agree that a bit more access to the domain spells could help the cleric out a lot. So I propose that the highest spell level a cleric has could only be used for a domain spell once a day, with the rest of the levels being allowed on a more frequent to unlimited basis. This way when it comes to the most current stuff the cleric can step, but not walk all over other casters toes.
I honestly think the biggest places for maneuvering room on the cleric are:
Domains and replacement abilities
Channel energy
Proficiencies and skills
Spells are a possibility but I'm leery of unlimited complete access to all spells of a given spell level -- so how about we limit how many spells a cleric can 'known' of a given spell level. I'm not talking to the extent that the sorcerer is limited -- but perhaps a cap of 15 spells of any level or something that he can change out of each time he levels. I am not fully formed on this idea -- but it's a start.
Some "miracle" powers that come with a drawback in the form of a 'stigmata' might not be so bad -- when you activate the miracle the stigmata kicks you in the butt as the deity reminds you that this isn't your power, and to choose carefully when you are or are not going to use it.
In fact that last idea would perhaps be one of the easiest to incorporate into the current system (other than archetypes that replace channel energy) and would offer variety without increasing 'free' power for the cleric at the same time.
Without derailing the thread too much I've been inspired to write a quick and dirty attempt at making the cleric more flavorful without too many new things while upping the power a touch to bring them in line with their oracle and druid counterparts.
Ultimately however I think more could be done. SO, I plan on breakign the whole thing down to its basic parts and rebuilding from the base up. I think the oracle had it somewhat right in its direction so I plan on going that route. The exception is instead of paths, they are the blessings of your god and your god determines many many things about your class. Right now however I desperately need sleep. So good night.
Without derailing the thread too much I've been inspired to write a quick and dirty attempt at making the cleric more flavorful without too many new things while upping the power a touch to bring them in line with their oracle and druid counterparts.
Ultimately however I think more could be done. SO, I plan on breakign the whole thing down to its basic parts and rebuilding from the base up. I think the oracle had it somewhat right in its direction so I plan on going that route. The exception is instead of paths, they are the blessings of your god and your god determines many many things about your class. Right now however I desperately need sleep. So good night.
*Thumbs Up*
Honestly, I only kind of wish I could go back and at least roll up an Oracle and have the option of playing that instead of a cleric. And that's only a bit. The options are somewhat in line with a character I was recreating from a home brew game, particularly the haunted descriptor, but I don't need to be an Oracle to be a tortured character, and I honestly think that the cleric, with its Domain Powers (which can be limited by which deity you go with) and channeling is just more attractive. I'm running a game with an Oracle and playing in a game as a Cleric. The oracle does okay, but is still mostly stuck healing since the party has no cleric. Literally they napped like 4 times last session...SNAIL'S PACE. Now,I don't really use the spells much as a negative energy channeling combat cleric...luckily we do have a positive energy cleric in the party too. Now, we have completely different focuses, mine is Retribution (ala a tortured St. Cuthbert priest, but with Abadar worship and Nethys granting powers, Destruction, Protection- Defense Subdomain) while his is Redemption- at least Sarenae is about Redemption. We couldn't be more thematically different, but because we're both clerics there's a bond. That and he had to realize the hard way that a heal-bot is not always combat ready. My character could take it, but I was also playing more conservatively. In character it makes sense as my guy is supposed to be a borderline anti-hero ex-militia/navy sailor, and his is a goody-two shoes priest. Still, the games will be interesting. So far the Oracle's powers are comparable, but if anything that channel energy is really lacking, especially in keeping spells. And yeah, while selective channeling IS a feat sink- it makes thematic/mechanical sense since the effect is a BURST of energy...so selectively omitting targets is tactically valuable, but not automatically relevant. You could have a healing (or even inflicting) cleric without it, he'd just have to maneuver carefully or wait until the end of combat (or when undead are around) to use it. An undead fight is an example of selective channeling not being necessary.
While I'm glad I'm running a game with an Oracle in it, I'd say that the party would likely be better balanced and move along better at 1st level with a cleric.
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Without derailing the thread too much I've been inspired to write a quick and dirty attempt at making the cleric more flavorful without too many new things while upping the power a touch to bring them in line with their oracle and druid counterparts.
Ultimately however I think more could be done. SO, I plan on breakign the whole thing down to its basic parts and rebuilding from the base up. I think the oracle had it somewhat right in its direction so I plan on going that route. The exception is instead of paths, they are the blessings of your god and your god determines many many things about your class. Right now however I desperately need sleep. So good night.
What sort of Outsider do they turn into? Native, with Alignment subtypes as their Deity, other?
What happens if they don' worship a deity? Normally I am all for godless Clerics, but this even I think is easily broken, if they can choose whatever Domains.
A few sidenotes you may want to concider. About Sainthood, most Clerics will already have all the Domains their deity offers, (I think), so being able to choose another may not actualy be any benefit. Even with SubDomains, I just don't think this is really anything. Also with the ability to use Domain powers as a Swift Action, Some Domains already have this ability, or some powers do not require actions to use at all. Maybe some alternatives for these tyoes of powers?
Lastly, and this is pretty minor, about switching out spells spontanously. If you can switch a spell for any cure or Domain spell of equal level or higher, there is no need to specify Orisons, as there are no Cure or Domain spell Orisons, (unles I missed something). I just say this so you can shorten up the Google Doc description a little, if you want to. And about the Outsider thing. Sometimes, this is a bad thing for spellcasters. As an Outsider, they might actually ose the benefits of some of their cooler abilities, like for example, Enlarge Person. It might be a good idea to either change it toan optional ability, or to pecify that the Cleric can still be targeted by beneficial affects that noramlly effect Humanoids, (or their previous race).
Other than that, I like it. Thank you for sharing and doing the little extra. :)
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Basically animate dead is off limits to "good", like I said. Good Clerics tend to have Good deities, or so it would seem. It seems likely that Neutral deities would probably have plenty of neutral clerics, right? That would include clerics of Wee Jass, Boccob, St. Cuthburt, Abad'hai (Grayhawk/3.x D&D), Evening Glory (Libris Mortis), Helm (Forgotten Realms), Abadar, Irori, Gozreh, Pharasma, Nethys, Gorum, and Calistria (PF/Golarion). That basically includes gods of: Cities, Wealth, Merchants, Law, Order, Justice, Nature, Oceans, Self-Perfection, Fate, Death, Prophecy, Birth, Magic, Strength, Battle, Weapons, Trickery, Lust, Revenge, Luck, Love, Beauty, Immortality.
You're right. It's probably more. Neutral clerics by their nature have to do things that are less than kosher, or else they wouldn't be neutral. Ergo, a lot of the more goodly neutral clerics are probably prone to casting stuff like animate dead, death knell, or summoning the odd fiend via summon monster I-IX if they feel the need arises. That's why they're neutral. They might not even like it, but they'll do it if it works.
Wanna know what you call a Neutral Cleric that doesn't do anything questionable? A Good Cleric.
Several doubtful statements in your arguments.
St. Cuthburt will not allow undead.
Adbar almost certainly will not allow them, they are unpaid labor (and you should always pay the right price for something in his faith);
Iori is all about perfecting self, using undead servants is almost certainly against his faith;
Pharasma is against undead (specified by the setting, she has an alternate list of spell for the death domain), from the description of her followers "They despise the undead as abomination of the natural order."
Helm will allow them only as guardians.
Then you fall in the old description of "True neutral" that need to balance every good act with a bad act.
"You know what is a neutral cleric that never do anything questionable?"
He is a neutral cleric. Not doing anything questionable is a far cry from doing something good.
A cleric of Adabar that respect every law of the land but will never use one of his spells or shed a drop of his sweat for free is doing nothing questionable but he is doing nothing good. Perfectly LN.
A priest of Pharasma that bury the dead for free because his duty is to care for all the dead is not doing a good act.
"Doing good" is not "never doing something bad".
wut?
Edit:
selective channel? To get selective channeling you must spend afeat and channeling is just saving CLW wands at level +5.
Or, you know, in addition to it.
summons? summons are for arcane casters and summons suck at many levels. At higher levels DR will often be a problem. Since clerics, unlike arcane casters, have few or no good conjuration spells Augment Summoning is not a good option.
summons are living walls, traptriggers, increase action economy, flanking, places reached (when they fly as an example). And I don't see my planar ally point answered.
A) Most clerics don't have a high wisdom, so saves it not that big of a problem.
WHY couldn't a cleric have an high wisdom? Even several domain abilities are based on it. And please choose: or channeling sucks so I can pimp wisdom up to the wazoo, or is good so why complain about it.
B) most spells are ’save and damage half ' or even 'save and negates (Blade Barrier) or only affects lower HD than cleric and have SR and saves. Most spells vs. powerful undeads and outsider are too weak or just useless.
So we need no SR, no save attacking spells? High level fiends are immune to death effects? Or to gated planetars?
powerful buffs? What powerful buffs?
Bless/Prayer? - grow useless/weak quick
Resist Energy/Prot from energy - All core spell classes except the bard has it.
Bull’s Strength - suck at higher levels.
PFE/Magic C. against evil - wizards/sorcerers got them too.
Death ward - hit hard with the nerfbat (but still fine)
Freedom of Movement:- still great
greater magic weapon - nerfed and wizards/sorcerers get it earlier.
Divine favor and divine power - self buffs only and both was hit with the nerf bat.
Heroes’ Feast - was hit hard with the nerf bat.
Holy Aura - suck.
"Wizards have it" is not an argument. Clerics have it too, so tell me if is powerful or not instead. I've to see why Holy Aura, o Repulsion, o antimagic Field suck. Or why the melee buffs are just fine, instead of out-fighting the fighter.
You can be a buffer or basher or angel summoner. You can no longer be all of these in the same time.
But if you by buff mean bonus to attack/attack and damage clerics only got Bless, Prayer, Bull’s Strength, Divine favor, divine power, greater magic weapon. Perhaps I've missed some spell but not that many more. Most of them have been nerfed or grow useless quick.
before answer this, list me which of these grow useless, please.7
And we are still ignoring utilities like walls, planar travel spells, find the path..
And specific domain spells able to improve one aspect or another of the class.
I'm sorry I still don't get it.
But if you do good, and do not do bad, then you are good.
As to the setting specific details, that's cool. I doubt the Adbar and Iori, because it could easily be interpreted otherwise. However, if Pharasma is against undead, that's great, but it's specific to the deity's flavor, not the alignment, and unless it specifies otherwise the cleric could still cast the spell (though potentially requiring atonement afterwords for breaking a tenant).
I was going by the material presented in the core rulebook, which does not detail anything. My bad for not having enough info, but if you're running a PF game out of the core rulebook + bestiary, there's nothing suggesting otherwise.
However, you seem concerned with the whole good/evil balance equation, so let's look at this a moment.
If you are doing good, and not evil, you're probably good.
If you're doing both, probably neutral.
If you're doing evil, and not good, you're probably evil.
Likewise, if you're not doing good, and not doing bad, then you're probably also neutral.
It's pretty strait-forward in this regard. Using less than nice methods to get the job done for the greater good is a commonly accepted form of moral neutrality.
And why will Helm allow them as guardians? Because they make good guardians. They're excellent sentries. They get the job done. Just like a sword. An mindless undead = a tool. We're not talking about flesh-eating, blood-drinking, eldritch abominations bent on the destruction of the world; we're talking about things that are incapable of making choices or having thought beyond issued commands.
In short, unless specifically specified, Neutral Deities are cool with casting animate dead, death knell, and summon monster I-IX.
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On a side note, I mentioned the spell from a standpoint of an option that clerics have that scales very well with level; and then ended up drawn into an argument about how clerics (or the majority of clerics) can't use it; which is patently false.
Perhaps in Pathfinder Society it's banned (I dunno, I can't say, I don't play PFS, and I can't find it in the PFSOPG), but I'm also under the impression a lot of other things are off limits in PFS, which have little to do with most games.
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I do believe it is not disallowed (per se) in PFS, but any Undead created are lost once the adventure is over, so basically, it is a very expensive form of Summon Monster with a 4E duration.
But, I also agree, the majority of player Clerics probably will not have, or can not have access to it. As far as Pharasma, her Clerics do not have access to that spell, as she will not grant it. They could use a scroll, and then need an Atonement, but as they are directly violating everything they believe, that isn't very likely. St. Cuthbert (who is actually LG with LN tendancies dispite what the 3E book says),(and other Nuetral deities) likewise simply do not grant that spell.
If I where to venture a guess of players characters that are both not evil, and could "freely" cast that spell, I would say 15 - 20%.
I imagine is Set ever stumbles in, he/she might do a list for us, to pass the time. :) I should also point out that one of the reasons that undead creation was so great in 3E is because of all the extra monsters one could create via the various Monster Manuals and other books, as well as templates like the Spellstitched. So far, that isn't true now, so they don't hold nearly the same punch anyway.
Without derailing the thread too much I've been inspired to write a quick and dirty attempt at making the cleric more flavorful without too many new things while upping the power a touch to bring them in line with their oracle and druid counterparts.
Ultimately however I think more could be done. SO, I plan on breakign the whole thing down to its basic parts and rebuilding from the base up. I think the oracle had it somewhat right in its direction so I plan on going that route. The exception is instead of paths, they are the blessings of your god and your god determines many many things about your class. Right now however I desperately need sleep. So good night.
One change I've been considering to channel is, rather than buffing the total, combining the effects. By this I mean a cleric can channel positive energy to heal the living and harm undead with the same channel rather than declaring for one or the other. Likewise an evil cleric could harm the living and heal the undead in one channel. Selective channeling, and the undead subdomain power open up numerous other possibilities here.
I've finalized two of my quest spells for the battle cleric of Gorum in this campaign. The first is "Bloodlust" a group buff version of the destructive aura power from the destruction domain, with spell parameters similiar to haste and blessing of fervor. This pretty much fits a God of War quest spell perfectly, and I'm balancing the fact that this spell lacks the drawbacks of the domain power by the fact that the domain power is available to 8th level clerics (with access to 4th level spells), and I tentatively have this penciled in as a 7th level spell (accessible by level 13 battle clerics of Gorum who undertake the mission to learn the spell).
His second quest spell is a boosted version of spiritual weapon that gives 1 spiritual weapon per 4 caster levels (max 5), and these provide flanking against their current target and threaten adjacent squares unlike the 2nd level version. This will be a 5th level quest spell.
I'm also going to add an 8th level quest spell and cap it at 3 quest spells but the 8th level quest spell is a work in progress.
As for my cleric summoner variant archetype, rather than an eidolon type companion, it's going to be more along the lines of a spiritual ally companion that levels up and gains new abilities as the cleric does. All spiritual ally companions would be deity specific in terms of abilities, style, and flavor.
I do believe it is not disallowed (per se) in PFS, but any Undead created are lost once the adventure is over, so basically, it is a very expensive form of Summon Monster with a 4E duration.
But, I also agree, the majority of player Clerics probably will not have, or can not have access to it. As far as Pharasma, her Clerics do not have access to that spell, as she will not grant it. They could use a scroll, and then need an Atonement, but as they are directly violating everything they believe, that isn't very likely. St. Cuthbert (who is actually LG with LN tendancies dispite what the 3E book says),(and other Nuetral deities) likewise simply do not grant that spell.
If I where to venture a guess of players characters that are both not evil, and could "freely" cast that spell, I would say 15 - 20%.
I imagine is Set ever stumbles in, he/she might do a list for us, to pass the time. :) I should also point out that one of the reasons that undead creation was so great in 3E is because of all the extra monsters one could create via the various Monster Manuals and other books, as well as templates like the Spellstitched. So far, that isn't true now, so they don't hold nearly the same punch anyway.
In 3E, there was no skeleton or zombie template, except sometime later with the introduction of a web-enhancement which introduced skeleton/zombie templates, which were more or less copy/pasted to 3.5 during the revisions (which was probably for the best).
That being said, I rarely used anything outside of the core MM involving undead (as a GM), and likewise never did as a player (since I never found that many GMs who were using non-core monsters in great frequency, while I was playing someone with animate dead), and barring possible new variations of skeletons in zombies (oh look, it's a skeletal dire platypus!), there really wasn't much that you could do.
Even Libris Mortis, the undead book that introduced a truckload of new undead didn't include any methods for actually creating any of them. This actually led my younger brother to a bit of frustration, as he actually was playing a necromancy-focused cleric, and was quite bugged that there was no guidelines for creating a Boneyard (it's basically a giant snake-shaped pile of bones) as a high-level mount or something.
I admit to not being very familiar with spell-stiched (beyond spell-stitched familiars, is that what you mean?), but the only book I can think of that actually gave you the option for doing something outside the normal options for animate dead was in the Draconomicon which basically said that you could create skeletal and zombie dragons with it (they used slightly different rules).
Interestingly, the skeletal and zombie dragons in the Necronomicon were designed in the 3E vein. Both templates make the mindless undead "Neutral" alignment, just as 1E-3E skeletons and zombies were.
Otherwise, I'd actually say that Pathfinder has done more to give options and variety to animate dead by including cool alternatives such as the bloody skeleton (I love these guys) and the fast zombie (now zombies are actually viable at higher levels), and plague zombies (zombies making zombies, how convenient).
Bloody skeletons, however, are definitely pretty awesome. An undead minion with fast healing, that comes back to unlife 1 hour later if destroyed with traditional methods is pretty nice! Get a few of these, and they're the gift that keeps on giving. ☺
......And we are still ignoring utilities like walls, planar travel spells, find the path.....
Nop, wasn't saiyng all spells suck. Just pointing out that clerics aren't master of buffs, self buffs excluded.
before answer this, list me which of these grow useless, please.7
I may list em, but not answer you? ;-)
Without derailing the thread too much I've been inspired to write a quick and dirty attempt at making the cleric more flavorful without too many new things while upping the power a touch to bring them in line with their oracle and druid counterparts.
Ultimately however I think more could be done. SO, I plan on breakign the whole thing down to its basic parts and rebuilding from the base up. I think the oracle had it somewhat right in its direction so I plan on going that route. The exception is instead of paths, they are the blessings of your god and your god determines many many things about your class. Right now however I desperately need sleep. So good night.
Wow I wish I could like it but:
Do not want!
spontaneously changing domains at higher level? No thank you -- that's on the insanity level of power right there. "Oh hi wizard -- yeah I'm popping travel and good... oh no, I better change to arcane so I can disjunction spontaneously... oh wait, time to change to agathion, oops need that leadership now... hmm...."
No -- a thousand times no.
And how do the powers reset if you change? Can I use up all my abilities from one domain, switch to another and use it up too?
And swift action usage too? No, no no no -- the idea was not to create the uber cleric again -- it was to give options not power remember?
And bonus feats? Really just kick the wizard while he's down why don't you -- sheesh.
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All the Monster Manuals, Libri Mortis, and Heroes of Horror hve some nice things for the various creating Undead Spells.
I may have given the wrong name, but Spell Stitched was a template on MM2 that a spellcaster could offer some really coolness to an Existing Undead base on their Wis and your level. Complete Arcane reprinted and destroyed it.
Other settings lik DragonLance and Eberron to a lesser extent, and books added other things as well, like Monsters of Faerun. One of the main Undead from that book is in the PF Bestiary add on.
But for a Cleric that wants Undead, I would suggest going with Ghosts and th like rather than things Animate Dead can create. So much more fun. Unfortunatly, Rebuke/Command Undead doesn't work the same way, so playing a Undead Controling Cleric is more risky than it's worth, in my opinion. Basically cuts out a great deal of the utility of having Undead, and only makes them good for temp meat shields.
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. . .spontaneously changing domains at higher level? No thank you -- that's on the insanity level of power right there. "Oh hi wizard -- yeah I'm popping travel and good... oh no, I better change to arcane so I can disjunction spontaneously... oh wait, time to change to agathion, oops need that leadership now... hmm...."
No -- a thousand times no.
I don't know, it really depends on what they mean by changing Domains. If it doesn't include SubDomains, then they really don't get much benefit for this, as they already have 4 Domains, and you can not take a Domain and one of it's SubDomains. The only way I can really see it as broken is in the hands of a deityless Cleric, (without any DM restrictions).
And swift action usage too? No, no no no -- the idea was not to create the uber cleric again -- it was to give options not power remember?
I wouldn't call this an Uber Cleric, but maybe a little, (key word being little, unless I misunderstand something), to strong. That being said, I do think tat the Cleric does need a Capstone ability, as well as what comes next.
And bonus feats? Really just kick the wizard while he's down why don't you -- sheesh.
The Cleric does need some Bonus Feats, either just like the Wizard with some Channel options, or as options for Domains like the Mysteries and Bloodlines. Domains just suck in comparison. In all honesty, I wish Domains worked just like Bloodlines, but that's just me, and I really don't care if Sorcerers cry about it. :)
And I don't see my planar ally point answered.
planar ally point? I missed that one, sorry. Don't like it costs GP. But I agree a good spell at some levels. Scaling still suck.
summons are living walls, traptriggers, increase action economy, flanking, places reached (when they fly as an example).
Spend a 6th or 7th spell slot to get a +2 bonus from flanking? Good buff, not. Spend a 7th spell level slot to create a wall that isn't a wall? I don't think so. Traps? You only need SM1, SM2 or SM3 at the most to deal with traps. SM is great at some levels but grow more useless at higher levels. Please read other posts in this thread.
WHY couldn't a cleric have an high wisdom?
They are not wizards?
So we need no SR, no save attacking spells? High level fiends are immune to death effects? Or to gated planetars?
I didn't say that.
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WHY couldn't a cleric have an high wisdom?
They are not wizards?
To clarify, Cleric need a lot, (a lot) more good to decent stats than other classes. I personally, don't think they have a "Dump Stat", so in my opinion . . .
Str 12+
Dex 12+
Con 14
Int 12
Wis 16
Cha 14
. . . is the minimum one needs to be an effective Cleric.
So we need no SR, no save attacking spells? High level fiends are immune to death effects? Or to gated planetars?
I'm honestly not sure any Divine Spell should have S.R. You are calling down the power of the heavens, not casting an arcane spell. I honestly don't recall older editions having Divine magic resistance, so it has always bugged me. I also think this would make an excellent, Rules Reason for there to be a difference between Divine and Arcane Magic. But other than that, yes, attacking creatures against their strongest (or close) save, and that have S.R. usually around a minimume of 50% chance of failure makes many Cleric spells pretty useless. Gate doens't work the same way it used to, and basically, yes, fiends are immune to death effects, with a few notable ARCANE exceptions. Especially if by Death Effects you mean the very nerfed direct minimal damage effects that have some cool Spell names but don't actually kill you, death effects. :)
All the Monster Manuals, Libri Mortis, and Heroes of Horror have some nice things for the various creating Undead Spells.
Gotcha. I don't have Libris Mortis, and I tended to use few of the Monster Mansuals. After MM 2 and MM 3, I kinda gave up on them.
I may have given the wrong name, but Spell Stitched was a template on MM2 that a spellcaster could offer some really coolness to an Existing Undead base on their Wis and your level. Complete Arcane reprinted and destroyed it.
Nice. I'll have to check it out. Honestly, if I had seen it, I probably forgot about it. I pretty much stopped using the MM 2 because it was like a crapshoot. Half the monsters in the book were either really lame, badly designed, or both. I just haven't been able to decide if WotC set the CRs in that book by throwing darts at a board, or rolling a d20 and marking the result. Either would sound right to me.
Other settings like DragonLance and Eberron to a lesser extent, and books added other things as well, like Monsters of Faerun. One of the main Undead from that book is in the PF Bestiary add on.
Nice. Wasn't the Curst, was it?
But for a Cleric that wants Undead, I would suggest going with Ghosts and the like rather than things Animate Dead can create. So much more fun. Unfortunatly, Rebuke/Command Undead doesn't work the same way, so playing a Undead Controling Cleric is more risky than it's worth, in my opinion. Basically cuts out a great deal of the utility of having Undead, and only makes them good for temp meat shields.
The biggest problem with intelligent undead is that you don't have control over them, barring things like control undead or command undead. Plus you need a sentient creature to do so, whereas with animate dead, you're just using the (now hollow) body of something that's dead, and controlling it with magic and negative energy. Generally, I feel like its harder to find willing subjects, and turning people into undead to enslave their sentient beings is (IMHO) less morally gray.
However! That doesn't mean you cannot cast create undead and similar spells on your party members when they die. This is actually a favorite tactic of mine (if you have permission from the party member, of course). Your friend snuff it? Bring them back as an undead version of himself. It's like the million dollar man! We can rebuild him, and make him stronger, faster, and eat less! ☺
Ghouls and Ghasts make for pretty good upgrades for most spellcasters (and sometimes monks and melee), while turning your party's warrior into a Mummy is a pretty cool way to bring him back to unlife! Just make sure to invest in a ring of fire resistance. ^.^
WHY couldn't a cleric have an high wisdom?They are not wizards?To clarify, Cleric need a lot, (a lot) more good to decent stats than other classes. I personally, don't think they have a "Dump Stat", so in my opinion . . .
Str 12+
Dex 12+
Con 14
Int 12
Wis 16
Cha 14. . . is the minimum one needs to be an effective Cleric.
Actually, I think one of the nice things about Clerics is you can build them for very different uses. You can very comfortably focus entirely on Wisdom and be more of a caster-cleric.
While Cleric spells often don't need higher save DCs, the ones they do have that require saving throws tend to be pretty vicious. Spells like sound burst (difficult to block damage + stun / disarm), hold person (this guy is probably dead next round), bestow curse (-4 to all all checks, -6 to a stat, or 50% chance to lose their turn each round), sanctuary means you can buff and heal without being harmed, shatter means you shat on warrior types (quicken targeted dispel magic[i] + [i]shatter = goodbye magic sword), blindness/deafness means you win, implosion is 170-200 damage on a failed save for 1 round/level, etc. The extra Wisdom means you get more bonus spells, more domain power uses, and so forth.
OR...
You can build them more like Warriors, focusing instead on Strength primarily with Wisdom as a secondary or even third stat, as you will really only desire as much as you need to cast spells of the correct level (which mean the minimum you'll ever need is Wis 19, but you'll do better than this anyway). Under this build, you can easily start with a set of abilities like this...
(15 PB: Human Templar): Str 16, Dex 14, Con 14, Int 7, Wis 13, Cha 7. You'll get 3 skill points per level, and casting/channeling is a secondary concern. Grab a heavy weapon (polearms are good) and a few backups, and use your spells for buffs and healing. Use wands for healing. Later pickup heavy armor proficiency. Use pearls of power to get additional uses of lower level spells like divine favor and shield of faith. Grab some nice warrior-friendly domains, and go to it.
I'm honestly not sure any Divine Spell should have S.R. You are calling down the power of the heavens, not casting an arcane spell. I honestly don't recall older editions having Divine magic resistance, so it has always bugged me. I also think this would make an excellent, Rules Reason for there to be a difference between Divine and Arcane Magic. But other than that, yes, attacking creatures against their strongest (or close) save, and that have S.R. usually around a minimume of 50% chance of failure makes many Cleric spells pretty useless. Gate doens't work the same way it used to, and basically, yes, fiends are immune to death effects, with a few notable ARCANE exceptions. Especially if by Death Effects you mean the very nerfed direct minimal damage effects that have some cool Spell names but don't actually kill you, death effects. :)
While I don't think clerics should ignore SR, I do think SoD spells were too badly nerfed. They were already risky, and required teamwork to set up. Now a fighter deals more damage than a Wail of the Banshee, every round. They're pretty much useless.
Honestly if you wanted to nerf SoD spells, they could have made it so that it drops enemies to -1 hit points or something, instead of outright killing them; but it needs to be a save vs game-over-without-help at least.