~Spontaneous Domain Casting: I'm for doing away entirely with Cure/Inflict spontaneity. It's a hold over we can honestly do without.I have to disagree here, spontaneous casting heal spells is one big bonus of the cleric, I can't even count the number this rescues one of my team mates.
Why do you think the healing domain is there?
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~More domains: Give them access to more domains over time. This actually allows the cleric to represent more fully what his/her god is all about and represent all aspects of that god it also gives them more toys.Count me in on this one.
Only as a variant, but I'm not sure what to swap out for it.
I find it amusing that the Cleric is now considered underpowered...
Where is CoDzilla when you need him?
~More domains: Give them access to more domains over time. This actually allows the cleric to represent more fully what his/her god is all about and represent all aspects of that god it also gives them more toys.Count me in on this one.Only as a variant, but I'm not sure what to swap out for it.
I find it amusing that the Cleric is now considered underpowered...
Where is CoDzilla when you need him?
Pls, read carefully the thread, nobody is discussing a supposed "underpowerment of the current class", although certainly, every proposed modification to the cleric must be carefully balanced out.
As for "CoDzilla", the druid class has nothing to do with the powers of the cleric, you can't play a cleric and use the abilities of a druid, so assuming the a cleric is powerful "because also the druid can..." has no logical merit whatsoever, so I can't understand why this word should be brought into the discussion of the current thread.
I think it's sad you can't let your argument stand on its own merits, and have to add attacks against the people you disagree with.
I think that whats wrong is we have folks who are expecting Paizo to build their character for them instead of using their own imaginations.
An opinion is not an attack.
No one in particular was singled out but as the old saying goes:"If the shoe fits, wear it."
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I much prefer Clerics to Oracles. For me, it's all about the ability to change out your spells and be more versatile. Have an adventure where you need to go underwater? Just let me rest and pray. Going to a negative energy plane and need to make sure we can walk safely there? Just let me rest and pray.
The problem is, oracles are set on their spells and if they don't have them, then well it sucks for them. Sure, you can always buy a scroll or something, but I'd rather save my gold to make my cleric more bamf.
If you want to see how awesome a cleric can be, go Cleric 8 / Holy Vindicator X (I have HV 3 so far). I have, on a regular basis, a 37 AC that I can pump up to 42 if need be. Not to mention, I channel 8d6, which really comes in handy in a pinch.
I love my cleric and I wouldn't EVER think of replacing it with another divine caster class.
Tks everybody for your contributions.
I actually think that one of the issue of the cleric is that there are too many, and far too specific, domains.
You may think that this helps customization, but I think that the opposite is true.
Assuming you do care about roleplaying, the number of options, where you take into account deities and alignments, is much less than you think. We must realize that overspecific domains will be assigned only to very specific deities. And each domain only add a couple special abilties at most (as powerful as they might be).
If you don't care about rp, then you have a VERY long list of possible combinations between domains, subdomains, races, deities and alignments. Many of these combinations are actually subpar where it comes to power, so that an inexperienced player may not be satisfied with the outcome, while an optimizer may end up again with a much shorter list of "recommended cleric builds".
Balancing out many domains is difficult, and the fact that other classes may take them only makes things worse.
My idea is that the number of domains should be trimmed down, in line with the number of bloodlines or misteries or school specializations that others classes get.
Cleric should be able to choose only ONE domain, but each domain should have a much longer (and level spread out) list of powers/spells for a cleric to choose from.
All of this would make much simpler to choose and differentiate clerics, and deities would share a broader percentage of domains, so that players would be more free to choose a particular deity/domain combination for rp. It would also make things easier both for designers and DMs that have to customize domains for settings other than Golarion.
If you absolutely like the idea of domain specialization, we could divide domains in subdomains, with the option of choosing them as a cleric progresses in level, something like Nature(Animal, Plant...), elemental (Fire, Water, Earth...), each with a specific power attached. I can even see subdomains shared between different domains, perhaps according to deities.
Paladins and rangers should NOT get any domain, no matter what (unless they PrC or multiclass). They are not full casters and have a host of other powers.
Druids, I can see them be allowed to take a Nature domain (with proper balancing), and even specific druid-only subdomains.
Unfortunately, this can't be done now. We can't call back already printed material. Maybe a "variant cleric" could be possibile?
I'm writing this because I think this is one issue with this class, I want to share my opinion and I hope that Paizo may mitigate the issue in some way with future releases.
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An opinion is not an attack.
No one in particular was singled out but as the old saying goes:
"If the shoe fits, wear it."
It is when you're throwing the shoes at people.
Or a better analogy, a mortar round is still an attack even if you don't aim at anything in particular.
Just by stating it, you are implying that anyone who does not agree with you is not using their own imaginations. Even without specifically saying 'X has no imagination' you are still passive aggressively attacking people.
Nobody likes the idea of expanding channels uses?
I do. I actually suggested it ;-)
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I think it really depends in which way we or they (Paizo) adds options to Channel Energy.
I really like the idea of adding additional affects to Channel Energy as they level (not sure about as Feats for this, though).
I'd like to also see some options to mix up Channeling Positive and Negative Energy, both for a dualist and to give say a healer some potential to go offensive as well. Or allow for a Cleric that can spontaniously cast Cure spells, but Channel Energy that is Negative for the burst, (and vice versa).
Maybe even extending into allowing the Cleric to heal and hurt at the same time, but at a lower effective level for one, or both.
I really hope they are Cleric only abilities, at least primarily, (not Paladin or Oracle as well).
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~More domains: Give them access to more domains over time. This actually allows the cleric to represent more fully what his/her god is all about and represent all aspects of that god it also gives them more toys.Count me in on this one.Only as a variant, but I'm not sure what to swap out for it.
I find it amusing that the Cleric is now considered underpowered...
Where is CoDzilla when you need him?
Pls, read carefully the thread, nobody is discussing a supposed "underpowerment of the current class", although certainly, every proposed modification to the cleric must be carefully balanced out.
As for "CoDzilla", the druid class has nothing to do with the powers of the cleric, you can't play a cleric and use the abilities of a druid, so assuming the a cleric is powerful "because also the druid can..." has no logical merit whatsoever, so I can't understand why this word should be brought into the discussion of the current thread.
It is a word and a person. Both are unwelcome.
There is a lot of talk of "adding" and very little talk of "trading".
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Trading what? It's lack of mechanics? I'll trade that class feature I don't get at level 10 for . . .
:)
But if you are saying you need more, you either are going to have to give something up or you are saying the class is underpowered and needs more to be effective.
It is a caster class, it can be any number of things. It is versatile by it's very nature.
What you are asking for is more, without saying what needs to be removed in exchange.
It is like giving a first level character the wish spell because it would be "cool".
Not every shark also needs lasers.
But if you are saying you need more, you either are going to have to give something up or you are saying the class is underpowered and needs more to be effective.
It is a caster class, it can be any number of things. It is versatile by it's very nature.
What you are asking for is more, without saying what needs to be removed in exchange.
It is like giving a first level character the wish spell because it would be "cool".
Not every shark also needs lasers.
+1. Cleric is still one of the strongest classes in the game in Pathfinder even if it isn't quite what it was by the end of 3.5. The list of classes which can be said by someone who understands game balance to be as good or better is a very short list.
Your'e in the wrong thread. This isn't about power level stuff.
If it isn't about power level why is giving something up a problem?
Why is taking away a problem?
If it gets you flavor these trades shouldn't be a problem.
Your'e in the wrong thread. This isn't about power level stuff.If it isn't about power level why is giving something up a problem?
Why is taking away a problem?
If it gets you flavor these trades shouldn't be a problem.
The problem, as at least one person has pointed out, is that in many of the solutions mentioned, there is nothing to take away. You can slow down progression of the existing abilities from "barely able to keep up" to "now these are really pointless," but there isn't anything else to trade. On the spell list side, any trading would require a complete rewrite of the spell list which is what most people are trying to avoid, at least right now. That is the biggest problem with the cleric, it has been backed into a corner with no real easy way out, at least as far as the mechanics are concerned.
The existing mechanics can't compete with the newer options flavor wise. There is nothing unique or particularly cool about any of the cleric class features, and after level 1, even the 2 new things you get later on are already known. The spell list is thin enough and redundant enough that it cannot carry the class by itself.
Likewise, you can't change/alter the class without ending up with more of something, simply because there isn't enough existing abilities or truly worthwhile spells to really do a lot of trading and moving around without making the a lot of the existing stuff, much of which is already seen as being on the weak end of things, virtually pointless. The one place that changes could most easily be made, the spell list and domains spells, is also the place that is hardest to make changes to, due to balance issues with competing spell lists.
There is plenty to give away.
Give up a some uses of channel energy (1+cha instead of 3+cha) and you can heal 'x' conditions every couple of levels.
Or simply trade out channel energy completely for lay on hands and mercies (or the anti-paladin equivalent for negative energy)
Don't get the level 1 domain power instead get the ability to spontaneously cast spells of the domain type instead.
Give up the bonus spell slots as was mentioned by someone else earlier for the same ability.
Give up domains altogether get something else altogether. Or just give up one domain and be a "domain specialist" gaining the domain powers of both the major domain and one of the subdomains.
Proficiencies can be added or dropped for different things.
Perhaps cause the cleric to suffer from arcane spell failure to grant them access to more defensive magics added from the wizard's list.
Heck take on arcane spell failure and gain complete access to one school of magic from the wizard's list -- I'm good with that.
Give up a d6 of channel at level... 5 and gain the ability to heal (or deal) 1 point of ability damage per target per channel attempt in addition to the HP healed. At level 13 give up another d6 to be able to heal one temporary negative energy level per person per day.
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There is plenty to give up for different abilities. It's a matter of how much you are willing to give for any single ability and how many times you want to give something up for something else.
Arcane spell failure for clerics would be stupid, sorry to be so blunt, but for people who are supposed to be able to function anywhere on a battlefield, at least for a short time, which a wizard is not typically expected to do, arcane spell failure would equal suicide. There is no way that arcane spell failure would work with the cleric class without completely reworking current mechanics and the corresponding expectations of what the class should be doing.
Proficiencies are another area that the clerics currently have what they need to fill their expected role. I could see some archetypes trading out medium armor, but that is really about it, and even then, I would be very careful in doing it. Simply put, there is the expectation that all clerics should be able to stand up in melee for at least a round or two. Taking that expectation on right away before other expectations have been dealt with would cause more problems than it solves. Eventually, treating them like the bard with the ability to cast freely in light armor only would be ideal, but other changes, both mechanically and in how the class is viewed, have to occur first.
I do like giving up the extra domain slot for spontaneously casting domain spells. It is a quick, simple fix that neither subtracts nor adds. By itself, however, it doesn't really solve the problems the class faces. Likewise, exchanging uses of channel energy to heal other conditions, the idea of choosing only one domain, and other similar simple fixes, are good, but even a handful of relatively minor changes, one of which is simply a reversal of an existing paladin ability, is really big enough to force expectations from others to significantly change, which is part of the problem. Also, they are small fixes, but even these are still significant enough to make some people see visions of CODzilla, another difficulty that has to be dealt with. I could be wrong in the impact that multiple little changes would have, especially the spontaneous casting of domain spells, but I just don't see any of them as being sufficient long term without similar changes to the base spell list.
Your'e in the wrong thread. This isn't about power level stuff.
Maybe I think it would make wizards way more flavorful if we added 5 to all their spell save DCs and didn't take anything away; it doesn't matter because it's such a dumb idea in terms of game balance that no GM who halfway understands balance would ever implement it, and Paizo certainly knows better than to implement it.
Talking about adding more stuff to clerics without taking something else away is like that. If power level doesn't fit into your calculus then you're basically pissing in the wind.
You're attributing that quote to the wrong person, Zark. STR Ranger asked that question, not me. I merely quoted it.
Sorry bad copy and paste.
There is plenty to give away.
Give up a some uses of channel energy (1+cha instead of 3+cha) and you can heal 'x' conditions every couple of levels.
Or simply trade out channel energy completely for lay on hands and mercies (or the anti-paladin equivalent for negative energy)
Don't get the level 1 domain power instead get the ability to spontaneously cast spells of the domain type instead.
Give up the bonus spell slots as was mentioned by someone else earlier for the same ability.
Give up domains altogether get something else altogether. Or just give up one domain and be a "domain specialist" gaining the domain powers of both the major domain and one of the subdomains.
Proficiencies can be added or dropped for different things.
Perhaps cause the cleric to suffer from arcane spell failure to grant them access to more defensive magics added from the wizard's list.
Heck take on arcane spell failure and gain complete access to one school of magic from the wizard's list -- I'm good with that.
Give up a d6 of channel at level... 5 and gain the ability to heal (or deal) 1 point of ability damage per target per channel attempt in addition to the HP healed. At level 13 give up another d6 to be able to heal one temporary negative energy level per person per day.
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There is plenty to give up for different abilities. It's a matter of how much you are willing to give for any single ability and how many times you want to give something up for something else.
Very good Post Abraham. I think we almost agree ;-)
A lot of people have pointed out this thread is not about power its, about mechanics.As proven by the APG its lack of mechanics, unlike the druid, made it hard to create any cleric archetypes.
I'm not saying the cleric should get spells that can compete with arcane spells, but I do think she should get some better spells at the more boring/weak spell levels. Some healing spells, some protection spells, etc. Better Cleric spells doesn't make the cleric a Wizard! Clerics will never have wizard spells. Wizard cast shield, Mirror Image, displacement on self. Cleric cast Shield of Faith, Shield Other, Magic Circle against Evil. A lot of the best Wizard spells are target self. Most protective Cleric spells are target touch.
As for trading armor for better spells, I'm for it. Create an archetype and get access to some of the arcane spells or more powerful divine spells sound like fun. A cloth Cleric would be fun. I'm actually one of the people that wanted an Oracle that was prohibited from using shields or anything heavier than light armor. Even banning medium mithral armor. Alas things didn't turn out that way and now a lot people rather play Oracle than Cleric.
I agree with "them" and now also agree with you.
There is now way Paizo are going to just add new stuff to the cleric (more skills per level, free bonus feat at level 6 and 12, etc.) without taking away stuff, so the fix people are hoping for will come as:
Just adding stuff for free to the Cleric is not something I want, but if people (be it many or just a few) find the Cleric boring why not let them have a more fun cleric.
Sure trading probably must be made, that's why we have archetypes. That said I'm one of the people that actually think the Cleric at higher levels isn't that powerful. Unless he go the Codzilla route. At higher levels the cleric - as a caster and a channeler, is weak. At higher levels both the Oracle and Druid is far more powerful than the cleric. One of the reasons is that Channeling is useless at higher levels and the cleric spell list is crapy. High level slots are used to cast quicken divine favor and other Codzilla spells, but after the Pathfinder nerf of divine Power and the 3.5 nerf of Bull's Str, etc. the cleric isn't even near Codzilla. Druid or battle Oracle are better options.
can't give anything up
See I'm still seeing the same responses -- "but I need that!"
If you want more spells that are 'like wizard spells' I don't see why having wizard like restrictions should be a problem -- presumably you'll be able to get along without armor relying on that nice medium BAB and d8 hit dice, instead of the wizard simply getting along with no armor and poor BAB and d6 hit dice. After all you still have all your nice cleric spells and more.
I see you complaining that what I would do would change expectations of what the cleric is supposed to do. To this I say, "Duh." That's the whole point -- are you asking for flavor with no mechanics?
It seems to me you want to change the cleric from being bland and all the same without actually changing the cleric -- instead adding more on. That's not the way to do it since then you still end up with bland and all the same clerics with simply more stuff.
Instead let's do things that changes the *expectations* of what a cleric is there to do so that an unarmored follower of nethys can actually *rely on being a caster* instead of being *forced* by expectations to also be decent at melee. Let's make it possible for a seducer type cleric to not wear armor/ use weapons and have abilities that matches for it -- perhaps more skills instead. After all if they are a 'lover not a fighter' then perhaps they don't need to be able to wear all that armor and use those weapons hm?
new spells. I'm not sure why this should be a bad thing. All classes get new stuff and all spell casting classes get new spells. I'm not sure why better healings spells at level 7 and 8 or utility spells at level 1 and 3 upsets you (perhaps I read you wrong). Again Giving the Cleric new and/or better spells won't make her wizard.
Replacing the healing spells as they exist now wholesale was something I really pushed during the Beta and I wished they had, and still would listen to me on this.
I think new spells aren't needed with this simple change:
Cure light wounds heals 1d8 +1d8/5 levels.
Cure Moderate wounds heals 2d8+1d8/4 levels.
Cure Serious wounds heals 3d8+1d8/3 levels.
Cure Critical wounds heals 4d8+1d8/2 levels.
I wouldn't mind a few new healing spells specifically -- perhaps something that only restores ability damage, something that grants fast healing (divine instead of simply infernal healing), maybe a few other niche spells along these lines -- but I rather they be broad for all 'healer' types instead of cleric only.
After all the last thing we want is to reinforce the "healbot" concept of the cleric alone right?
My problem with more *combat* spells is that this is something the wizard gives up everything else for and everyone is already constantly stepping on his toes at too. Clerics randomly dip his best spells for their domains, druids get several of them, as does oracles (and in many cases can actually cast them *better* than a wizard could -- see oracle of heavens and the color spray spell).
These classes have d8 hit dice, medium BAB, either better saves, better skills or both, as well as the ability to cast any spell in armor with no problems -- which is huge (I firmly and regularly reject the idea that AC is ineffective at any level).
Even with miracle so long as you keep it in the 'limits' it is cheaper to cast than wish. Cleric battle spells general deal damage *and* a rider effect -- something that fireball doesn't do. Getting d8 damage and a rider effect is worth not getting 10d6 in my opinion. The only 'hard' part of this choice is choosing the right version when you prepare your spells.
I see you complaining that what I would do would change expectations of what the cleric is supposed to do. To this I say, "Duh." That's the whole point -- are you asking for flavor with no mechanics?
No, the problem is that I'm not sure that the suggestions you put forth would change the expectations of the class one bit in the minds of the people who don't play clerics. As much I would like to see unarmored options for the cleric myself, and as much as I personally like most of your ideas, except for the arcane spell failure, until the base spell list is dealt with somehow, I just don't see the people who play mindless barbarians or self absorbed wizards caring that they are asking the cleric to basically commit suicide or be very bored in most battles as the class continues to fill the role they think they cleric should fill.
The combination of many little changes might be enough to do it, but I wouldn't want to risk any more than losing medium armor until that could be confirmed in actual play.
Basically it boils down to I like your ideas, but some of them are going to be just as major as my main suggestion, which is completely rework the spell list, and therefore should be reserved for a time when major changes can be more easily implemented. In the meantime, the smaller changes you suggest are good, but also, throwing a couple of new spells at the cleric wouldn't completely over power the class. They don't need to come from the wizard list; the druid list, or the paladin list, the bard list, or even some new cleric only spells would work just fine, but the blandness of the base spell list is a big part of the blandness of the class as a whole, and can't be ignored. Better use of domain spells can help patch it, but don't address the root problem.
Hi everybody.
I was looking at the APG recently, and I was starting to wonder whether it makes any sense to play a cleric in Pathfinder.
I wanted to play a divine class, and right now, all I can think about are inquisitors and oracles. They seem more intriguing, and less bounded, for their powers, to the tenets of a faith, while maintaining a strong "divine link".
It's not a matter of POWER. I think it's ok, and I wouldn't even dare to start a "underpowered clerics?" thread, giving the amount of the heated discussions that would follow. Moreover, I don't know why, but every time that someone speaks about the power of a cleric, the druid comes in. CODZILLA and all that. It's like druids and clerics are the same thing. I read things like "the cleric is not nerfed! druids can outdamage a fighter!". Anyone has a rational explanation for this?
Possibly because druids were a cleric variant? Otherwise, I'd say it's people parroting the CoDzilla phenomena, without actually thinking about what they're saying. It is indeed stupid to use druids being awesome as an argument for why clerics are good (at least on the context you describe).
No, what I am talking about is that this class does not appear to be interesting, at least mechanic-wise. Admittedly, I didn't play one yet, so I'm asking for opinions.
My main problem: Nothing unique about a cleric.
- domains? druid, urban druid, paladin, inquisitor (and urban druid can spontaneous cast domain spells!)
- channel energy? life oracle, paladin (and charisma based, so they are better than a cleric!)
- cleric spell list? Oracle
Clerics have a wider selection of domains (druids have a limited selection).
1) Cleric domains can allow you to specialize them, and can grant them access to spells they normally don't have on their spell lists.2) All clerics can channel energy without specialization, while oracles must specialize to get it, and paladins have to sacrifice LoH uses to use it (and get it later).
3) Clerics have prepared casting plus spontaneous casting. While the oracle has the same spell list, oracles are more like divine sorcerers in the way they cast. This means that clerics are the wizards of divine casting, and have many of the same advantages that wizards have over sorcerers. Clerics can prepare anything as needed. Oracles are mechanically encouraged to take generic spells, whereas clerics can prepare a wider variety of spells. Most importantly it gives the cleric the option to craft a very wide variety of spell-trigger or spell-completion items, which they can use later. This versatility combos well with spontaneous casting (you should NEVER prepare a healing spell as a positive-caster, or an inflict spell as a negative-caster).
This means a smart cleric player have a spell list that looks like this.
5th level Cleric (Lawful Neutral, Channels Positive, Community and Protection Domains)
3rd Level Spells - Animate Dead, Summon Monster III, Magic Circle Against Evil. Domain - Prayer.
2nd Level Spells - Bull's Strength, Desecrate, Silence. Domain: Shield Other.
1st Level Spells - Bless, Aura of Faith, Summon Monster I. Domain: Sanctuary.
Orisons - Create Water, Guidance, Stabilize, Light
Our hypothetical cleric channels positive energy. She doesn't prepare healing spells because he can spontaneously cast them. She doesn't bother channeling positive energy in combat very much, but instead uses it to heal her allies between fights (unless she wants to grab the feat). She has a number of options but if she doesn't need a spell, then she drops it for a quick heal. At 5th level she took Craft: Wand, which allowed her to craft a wand of resist energy, magic weapon, and delay poison, to use as needed. She keeps an Animate Dead spell prepared for emergencies (if her party is badly outnumbered, she will convert enemies to allies (she can redeem this action by summoning a celestial creature with Summon Monster I/III while also bolstering her forces). She keeps enough spells to buff herself and her allies. She also keeps a burnt out ioun stone which has continual flame cast on it instead of a torch (she cast the spell herself).
Her feat selection is pretty much up to her. She could go the crafting route and also pick up Craft Wondrous Item. Or she could focus on melee, or ranged, or survival (just grab every +2 save feat, toughness, etc). Pretty awesome.
There's nothing, nada, zit, niente, special about it. It's like the designers wanted to make sure that nobody has ever any need to play this class.
Don't get me wrong, I know that no class in PF is necessary. You don't "need" a barbarian. However, if you want rage, you must play the barb. Favored enemy? Ranger. Special fighter feats? Fighter. But a cleric? what for?
There are no archetypes in the APG for the cleric, only subdomains, and to add insult to injury, subdomains are available to many classes! It's like giving the barbarians new rage powers, and then allow a fighter to take them.
I'm pretty much with you here. Subdomains are kinda meh.
Some more problems I see:
- feat taxed. Selective Channel? do I have to choose a feat to use a class feature in any useful way? Turn Undead? Seriously? what about a feat so the cleric can swing a mace?
- front loaded. The cleric is the only class in pathfinder that screams "prestige class" to me
- few options. 2 skill points/lev (and many useful skills), no bonus feat, no special power besides domains, which can't bee choosen freely. Want the demon domain? no way if you are not chaotic evil.
Normal Domains aren't alignment specific (except with some exceptions to the actual alignment domains). Clerics have the least feat tax of any class, IMHO. Channel Energy is often a secondary class feature, and is often beneficial without selective channeling (particular for out of combat healing, or undead mongering). Turn/Command is optional. There are feats to make it better as desired, but it's mostly a gimme.
It's actually better than in previous editions, as there's pretty much no downside when you're fighting undead. Just spam channel-positive and heal and harm at your convenience, with the feat being a good option if you want to use it in more combat situations.
Clerics are pretty front loaded, but most of their stuff scales with level, meaning that your lower level abilities continue to get better (see domain powers, channel energy, etc).
Clerics do have a wide variety of useful skills, and few skill points. However, a human cleric with a 7 Int can pull 3 skill points per level (1 + favored class + bonus), which is enough to put a rank into every knowledge skill (giving a +2 after penalties) and then specialize as desired. Giving a wide variety of class skills and a few skill points is a limiting factor, not a flaw. You have options, but you don't get everything. That's a good balance for this very versatile class.
Likewise, their versatility with multiclassing is a feature, not a flaw. We've got multiclassing options for a reason (the idea that Pathfinder makes multiclassing viable only to make sure no one will ever multiclassing is backwards), allowing you to specialize into different routes. Clerics are in no way harmed by going Cleric 20, but the fact that a Cleric can comfortably pull of Cleric / X combinations is a testament to their versatility.
I know, giving the cleric more "options" would probably make it too powerful. I think that's the problem: you can't add too much, but you can't even remove, or you loose too much backward compatibility.
I've been reading many threads in this forum to understand if these issues are perceived by the community too, but it seems I am alone. However, I did notice a few oddities:
- Every time someone asks for advice for any build type, someone else suggest a different class (oracle especially)
- if not a different class, multiclassing or prestige classes are usually suggested (ex: fighter/cleric for a battle cleric)
- healing and spontaneous cast of healing spells are strongly discouraged, so a possible cleric role is not useful, and the only specific cleric class feature is considered not optimal.
- channel energy is not considered to scale properly at high levelsI could just leave Clerics alone, but they are supposedly, however, icons of D&D, together with wizards, rogues and fighters. Letting them go into oblivion does not seem fair.
I tend to work primarily with the core classes. Oracles have too much baggage tacked on (I had a hard time coming up with a concept that the oracle fit because of their curse feature). I think people are often drawn to the new thing, but it really depends on the concept and what you're trying to do.
The biggest competition that oracles pose to clerics is they tend to come specialized in something, and have abilities that reward their specialization. Otherwise, I see them as being sorcerers next to wizards.
Channel Energy doesn't scale very good. I agree with that. It caps at 35 average at 19th, which is horrible. I introduced a feat which you can take to specialize your channel energy, increasing the effect by +2 per die, and you can take it up to 3 times (so 10d6 becomes 10d6+60 or an average of 95), for those who really want to use channel as a primary option. However, there's not really any official fixes for this.
I don't have a simple solutions for this issues (assuming that they ARE issues), but if really necessary I would even give 2 levels of spells away, like 2nd edition, just so that we could finally put all this "they can cast lvl 9 spells, so they cannot be improved any further" in the trash bin.
Honestly, clerics are pretty awesome. They're an option-filled class. The problem with option filled classes is they are what you make of them, and that can be daunting and make them seem poor. My favorite thing about clerics is you can use them for almost anything.
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Story Time: One of the strongest parties I've ever seen was a whole group of clerics. It was decided by the players that they wanted to do a themed party (kind of like a FF-Tactics single-class challenge) and decided they would all be clerics and work together to get through the campaign, even though the party seemed to be filled with healers.
When the time came, the party was nigh invincible. I was running the Red Hand of Doom (a D&D module that's got a reputation for being lethal), and they were all Lawful Neutral negative-energy channeling clerics who were supposedly from the same order. They truly represented what it was to be CoDzilla. All of them could fight adequately well, everyone was a potential healer (via prepared spells or magic items), all could animate undead (at 5th level they could control a 20 HD of undead each), and they could split off roles as they needed (each round they could go from being melee to caster to healer to buffer and back again). They also picked up Tomb Tainted Soul (Libris Mortis, you swap positive energy healing for negative energy; and you can also do this with Dhampir in a pure-Pathfinder game).
Channel Negative Energy meant that they could heal themselves and their undead minions while harming living targets, and if the entire party decided to burst that round, it was pretty amazing (at 5th level, they each popped a 3d6 channel, or 12d6 between the 4 of them, which was about 42 damage/healing, save for half). Spontaneous casting was powerful both offensively and defensively. Shield Other meant they could effectively negate incoming damage (damage split 4 ways meant that all incoming damage was quickly healed by a channel energy or two).
They had good AC (I think everyone was wearing chainmail + heavy shield), good saves, and a lot of incoming damage was blocked by summoned monsters and undead (literally preventing melee bruisers from getting to them, and allowing them to total defense when needed).
The stronger their foe, the stronger the party got. When they slaughtered (it was a massacre) a hydra early on in the adventure, they added it to their ranks. Same with ogres, ettins, and the like. As the enemy army shrank, they formed their own undying army. Pretty scary.
For those of you not familiar with The Red Hand of Doom, let it suffice to say (without spoilers) that it involves a hobgoblin army that sweeps through a valley, butchering civilians and peasants, and you have to try and stop them (and it's very difficult, as most of the NPCs are quite strong). No one could really complain about them using undead left and right because it was the lesser of two evils in this case (either you accepted that the undead were keeping the hobgoblins from razing your town, saving your daughter, and protecting your way of life, or you lost all of the above).
I imagine that without tomb-tainted soul their healing ability would have been considerably less. It is one the more overpowered 3.5 feats, and there's a reason it doesn't exist in PF. Having to play a specific race in PF to get the same benefit doesn't justify that feat.
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Every argument I'm seeing here comes down to spell list, spell list, spell list.
Remember, the cleric has access to EVERY SPELL on the Divine list. That's scary powerful. No Oracle can match that. Niche situation? Give them a day, they have you covered. No Oracle can switch from ranged damage to healer to buffing specialist to summoner to melee tank to charming diplomat. The cleric can do that EVERY DAY. The only thing he can't be is a Skill Monkey, and if you start borrowing 3.5 spells, he can do that, too!
Clerics aren't bland. They are so bloody versatile they just blend into one another. Any cleric can perform any of the roles above. It doesn't matter what the domains are, the god's weapon, the alignment...every cleric can DO that.
So the problem isn't having class abilities. It's having access to the whole cleric spell list.
You want to have clerics with FLAVOR? Do what they did with the Oracle...limit the spells the clerics get. It doesn't matter that the Oracles have access to the whole list...they only GET a handful of them. They are the sorcerors of the divine world. They are marginally better then a cleric in a certain focus because it is well and truly a focus...they cannot do everything the cleric can, but they can be better at exactly ONE role of a cleric, i.e. they are marginally better SPECIALISTS...but a cleric doesn't need to be a specialist.
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YOu want clerics with flavor?
Take the Cleric spell list down to say, four spells/level that ALL clerics have access to.
ALL other spells are part of Domains, and if you don't have the domain, you don't get the spell.
NOW...Domains will have FLavor. They will have IMPORTANCE. They will have POWER.
Tie spontaneous casting to the Domain, and channeling, and you further restrict, and LO, FLAVOR DOTH ERUPTETH...because now, the cleric has to make hard decisions about what he wants to be good at.
The answer is not in giving the cleric MORE...it's in taking more away and forcing the cleric into the same kind of choices the Oracle, the Wizard Specialist, and the Sorceror have to make.
That's all.
There's an underwater encounter in Serpent Skull later in the AP. Literally, rooms underwater. The odds your wizard is going to have the spells to deal with this are slim, your sorceror or Oracle 0.
The cleric says "Come back tomorrow, I'll Control Water twice and lower the water level down to bare stone and we won't even have to waste buffs on water breathing and free action."
ANY cleric can do that. Gods bless the almighty cleric. You want to fix the cleric, you give them less, not more.
==Aelryinth
Remember, the cleric has access to EVERY SPELL on the Divine list. That's scary powerful. No Oracle can match that. Niche situation? Give them a day, they have you covered.
Or a few minutes if they left spell slots open like they should.
Trouble is that quantity does not equal quality. The spell list itself is so full of situational and all too often weak spells that the oracle merely has to pick adn choose what he wants. Add that he gets a few unique spells, plus alternate favored classes, plus path spells his spell list is looking pretty good and he casts all of that, including the path spells, spontaneously.
No that oracle won't be casting those situational spells, but that's what scrolls are for. Which the cleric's making anyway. So all in all your choice of cleric over oracle mostly jsut saves you cash.
Honestly though I do agree that domains need to be tied to spontaneous casting.
YOu want clerics with flavor?
Take the Cleric spell list down to say, four spells/level that ALL clerics have access to.
ALL other spells are part of Domains, and if you don't have the domain, you don't get the spell.
NOW...Domains will have FLavor. They will have IMPORTANCE. They will have POWER.
This is basically the idea I had. Breakdown the spell list domains similar to the ways wizards have schools, though with domains there would likely be some overlap, but not enough to hurt the system, and the need for a core list that everyone has. Designate one spell per level in each domain as the signature spell. Every cleric gets regular access to the core list and the lists of all the domains of the deity in question. All other spells are treated as restricted, and follow the same rules that wizards restricted schools do. For the domains that the cleric personally chose, he can spontaneously cast the signature spells for those domains. He still has the full versatility of a spell list that has a fair number of weak levels and highly situational spells, but not without cost. At the same time, domains and the actual faith take on a much greater role mechanically. Different religions might have one or two domains in common, but not the full set, so what the clerics could easily cast would vary.
Only problem with the idea is that I for one am not even remotely qualified to try to do the necessary balancing and play testing, and most of those who are see any attempt to mess with the spell list, even just reorganizing it, as an attempt to bring back CODzilla. If someone really wanted to be brave and had a lot of time on their hands, they could try to break down the list and try to recreate it so that it was a little less situational, but doing that and the reorganization at the same time at this point probably isn't needed. One or the other certainly would help a lot, though.
I imagine that without tomb-tainted soul their healing ability would have been considerably less. It is one the more overpowered 3.5 feats, and there's a reason it doesn't exist in PF. Having to play a specific race in PF to get the same benefit doesn't justify that feat.
The feat isn't really very impressive. Really, the power of the group wouldn't have changed much, but their tactics might have. In my honest opinion, I think that they would have been better off using more potent options during combat than channeling energy, but they liked doing it.
Otherwise, they would have just prepared a few more healing spells, and carried a wand of cure minor wounds to heal between fights, and it would have left them pretty much at the same level of power.
In this case, they were using the feat in a very synonymous way. The feat itself is actually pretty poor in most campaigns, as it makes you vulnerable to positive energy. This makes it harder for other people to heal you, and generally only assists negative-energy clerics. Honestly, kind of a 4/10 feat, most of the time (especially since it only affects damage/healing, and doesn't stop debuffs like waves of fatigue).
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Every argument I'm seeing here comes down to spell list, spell list, spell list.Remember, the cleric has access to EVERY SPELL on the Divine list. That's scary powerful. No Oracle can match that. Niche situation? Give them a day, they have you covered. No Oracle can switch from ranged damage to healer to buffing specialist to summoner to melee tank to charming diplomat. The cleric can do that EVERY DAY. The only thing he can't be is a Skill Monkey, and if you start borrowing 3.5 spells, he can do that, too!
Don't forget Summon Monster. That's often times a damn good way to be a skill monkey. If you're dealing with traps that don't reset (or just trying to find deadly traps beforehand), summoning an expendable pet to run down a hallway is a good way. Also, summoning a celestial auroch to break down a door can be even better than Knock. ^.^
Clerics aren't bland. They are so bloody versatile they just blend into one another. Any cleric can perform any of the roles above. It doesn't matter what the domains are, the god's weapon, the alignment...every cleric can DO that.
Sometimes. Certain spells are only available to certain domains. Of course, the standard cleric spell list is kind of generic divinity stuff. Calling up the dead, healing the sick, flames from the sky, etc. But then again, many religions claim similar powers.
So the problem isn't having class abilities. It's having access to the whole cleric spell list.
You want to have clerics with FLAVOR? Do what they did with the Oracle...limit the spells the clerics get. It doesn't matter that the Oracles have access to the whole list...they only GET a handful of them. They are the sorcerors of the divine world. They are marginally better then a cleric in a certain focus because it is well and truly a focus...they cannot do everything the cleric can, but they can be better at exactly ONE role of a cleric, i.e. they are marginally better SPECIALISTS...but a cleric doesn't need to be a specialist.
Agreed. ☺
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YOu want clerics with flavor?Take the Cleric spell list down to say, four spells/level that ALL clerics have access to.
ALL other spells are part of Domains, and if you don't have the domain, you don't get the spell.
NOW...Domains will have FLavor. They will have IMPORTANCE. They will have POWER.
Tie spontaneous casting to the Domain, and channeling, and you further restrict, and LO, FLAVOR DOTH ERUPTETH...because now, the cleric has to make hard decisions about what he wants to be good at.
The answer is not in giving the cleric MORE...it's in taking more away and forcing the cleric into the same kind of choices the Oracle, the Wizard Specialist, and the Sorceror have to make.
That's all.
I agree that would definitely force clerics to be very different, but I'm not sure I like the implications of that. As-is, the cleric can be used to make wildly different character concepts quite viable. I give you this character as an example of why clerics are cool.
There's an underwater encounter in Serpent Skull later in the AP. Literally, rooms underwater. The odds your wizard is going to have the spells to deal with this are slim, your sorceror or Oracle 0.
The cleric says "Come back tomorrow, I'll Control Water twice and lower the water level down to bare stone and we won't even have to waste buffs on water breathing and free action."
ANY cleric can do that. Gods bless the almighty cleric. You want to fix the cleric, you give them less, not more.
==Aelryinth
Nice. ^.^
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Now if the cleric was to go more the way of the bard that wouldn't hurt my feelings any.
As in, contract the spell list down to 6th level casting? (Or, in a nod to 1st edition, 7th level spellcasting?) And then maybe touch up the Domains to give something new at 12th-ish and 20th?
That would be neat, and old-school.
Now if the cleric was to go more the way of the bard that wouldn't hurt my feelings any.As in, contract the spell list down to 6th level casting? (Or, in a nod to 1st edition, 7th level spellcasting?) And then maybe touch up the Domains to give something new at 12th-ish and 20th?
That would be neat, and old-school.
Yeah I could be down with that.
Replacing the healing spells as they exist now wholesale was something I really pushed during the Beta and I wished they had, and still would listen to me on this.
I think new spells aren't needed with this simple change:
Cure light wounds heals 1d8 +1d8/5 levels.
Cure Moderate wounds heals 2d8+1d8/4 levels.
Cure Serious wounds heals 3d8+1d8/3 levels.
Cure Critical wounds heals 4d8+1d8/2 levels.
New spells aren't needed, but Paizo should rewrite every cure spell in the game?
I have a hard time seeing Jason B. popping into this thread saying " sorry Abraham I'll rewrite every cure spell in the game. You'll have the fix next moth".Also your fix doesn't fix anything. Problem with cure spells now:
They don't scale enough,
there is no good cure spells on the 5th spell level list (or 7th and 8th)
there are no good mass cure spells except for mass heal
After your "fix":
Your cure spells still don't scale enough
there is still no good cure spells on the 5th spell level list (or 7th and 8th)
there are still no good mass cure spells except for mass heal
At lower levels you actually nerfed some of the spells.
3 level PFCRB Cleric casting CMW = 12 HP, Abe's 3 lvl cleric casting CMW = 9 HP
5 level PFCRB Cleric casting CSW = 18,5 HP, Abe's 5 lvl cleric casting CSW = 18HP
7 level PFCRB Cleric casting CCW = 20,5 HP, Abe's 7 lvl cleric casting CCW = 22,5HP
9 level PFCRB Cleric casting CCW = 27 HP, Abe's 9 lvl cleric casting CCW = 36 HP
11 level PFCRB Cleric CCW = 29 HP, Abe's 11 lvl cleric casting CCW = 40,5 HP
Healing 40,5 HP in battle when you are level 11 doesn't help enough and at level 11 she gets heal:
11 level PFCRB Cleric casting heal = 110 HP + awesome stuff, Abe's 11 lvl cleric casting CCW, 40,5 HP
I wouldn't mind a few new healing spells specifically -- perhaps something that only restores ability damage, something that grants fast healing (divine instead of simply infernal healing), maybe a few other niche spells along these lines -- but I rather they be broad for all 'healer' types instead of cleric only.
After all the last thing we want is to reinforce the "healbot" concept of the cleric alone right?
I agree, I would like Bards and druid to get some better heal spells too.
My problem with more *combat* spells is that this is something the wizard gives up everything else for and everyone is already constantly stepping on his toes at too.
I have not campaigned for more combat spells.
You wouldn't mind some new healing spells, but nothing else? No new buff spells, no new protective spell, no new combat spells, no new utility spells, nothing new that can threaten the arcane casters. So let's sum it up. You don't want to add any more spells to the cleric, except for some new healing spells. Sorry UM will be out in may. It will have new cleric spells in it.
No, Divine casters are not constantly stepping on the wizard's toes and .......
.....we are not talking about divine casters, we are talking about the cleric.
No, the wizard does not give up everything. If you think arcane casters suck create a new thread. Making the cleric more fun doesn't change the wizard. And no one is saying the cleric should get wizard spells.
Clerics randomly dip his best spells for their domains, druids get several of them, as does oracles (and in many cases can actually cast them *better* than a wizard could -- see oracle of heavens and the color spray spell).These classes have d8 hit dice, medium BAB, either better saves, better skills or both, as well as the ability to cast any spell in armor with no problems -- which is huge (I firmly and regularly reject the idea that AC is ineffective at any level).
Even with miracle so long as you keep it in the 'limits' it is cheaper to cast than wish. Cleric battle spells general deal damage *and* a rider effect -- something that fireball doesn't do. Getting d8 damage and a rider effect is worth not getting 10d6 in my opinion. The only 'hard' part of this choice is choosing the right version when you prepare your spells.
I've seen this before and it's just as wrong now as it was then. Giving the Cleric the odd wizard spell doesn't change a thing. It doesn't make her a Wizard. The arcane list is so much better at everything except when it comes to healing, fix 'em up spells (like restoration) and self buffs like divine favor. At higher levels healing in battle don't work unless using heal or mass heal, so you might as well use a wand. As for buff spells, Arcane casters have haste. Best buff spell in the game.
You don't need armor as an arcane caster and when you fight things with +35 to attack mirror image + displacement is far better than any armor. Same thing when fighting incorporeals.
d8 vs. d6 that's only 1 HP per level and arcane caster don't need d8, they have no need to be in the frontline and they don't need medium BAB. They can boost their saves (PFE etc) and they usually have just as good skills as the cleric or even better. You did notice this thread is about the cleric?
I really don't want this debate again. Last time , when Zurai gave us a lesson, I was with you. Now I'm not. I have given Zurai's arguments some thought and seen in play that he is right. It obvious he was right and you and I were wrong.
Cleric battle spells general deal damage *and* a rider effect -- something that fireball doesn't do.
Something fireball doesn't? Been sleeping bad? No of course it doesn't! So why compare Cleric spell X with fireball? If you want an arcane damage dealing spell with rider effects chose an arcane spell that deals damage and rider effects. Wizards do have them.
Anyway. Damage dealing spells suck. If you are playing your wizard (or cleric) that way you are doing it wrong. Haste beats fireball most of the time. Me? I would gladly hear Jason say:
- No more damage dealing spell to the cleric, we instead gave her some useful spells.
As for "general deal damage *and* a rider effect" I'm not sure what spells you are talking about.
Searing Light, Flame Strike, Slay Living, Harm, Blade Barrier, Destruction: Deal damage but no Rider effects (and they all got save AND SR).
Sound Burst, Holy Smite: Both Deal damage, have Rider effects and suck. Sound burst? I rather have Glitter dust (or Color Spray) any day. Holy Smite? 3d8 at level 7 are we joking. I rather have any arcane spell from the 4th spell level. In fact most arcane spells, if not all, on the 3rd spell level are far better.
If I had to chose between Holy Smite and a damage dealing spell from the arcane list such as fireball, lightning ball, Ice storm or Shout, I would take the arcane spell.
Ice storm: 5d6, and rider effect.
Shout: 5d6 points of sonic damage and rider effects.
Fireball or Lightning Bolt: Both 1 spell level lower, 7d6 (more vs. monsters vulnerable to fire/ lightning), and utility affects such as fire when dealing with swarms, Green slime, Yellow Mold, Rot grubs, etc. Lightning when dealing with Swarms, Iron Golems, etc.
Not that I as a Wizard would cast damage dealing spells from the 4th spell list, perhaps a fireball to burn away some critters or use as a utility spells, but arcane spells on the 4th and 3rd spell lists are far better than Holy Smite. In fact a some of the arcane spells on the 2nd spell level are better. Glitterdust and Web comes to mind.
Clerics stepping on the Wizards toe, not.
Or a few minutes if they left spell slots open like they should.
How do you do that? I have read the rules on cleric spells, and they do not seem to allow that:
Clerics meditate or pray for their spells. Each cleric must choose a time at which she must spend 1 hour each day in quiet contemplation or supplication to regain her daily allotment of spells. Time spent resting has no effect on whether a cleric can prepare spells. A cleric may prepare and cast any spell on the cleric spell list, provided that she can cast spells of that level, but she must choose which spells to prepare during her daily meditation.
You have to choose a time at which you regain spells during an one hour meditation each day. This time is fixed, for example at dawn. And you must choose which spells to prepare during that meditation.
How do you leave spell slots open? I am going to play a cleric in an upcoming game, and being able to become a semi-spontaneous caster would be great.
Clerics have the least feat tax of any class, IMHO.
True, but the fact that spell casting cleric really have no fun feat to pick proved how bland a spell casting cleric is. Cleric is a hybrid class and should be played that way. IMHO
Channel Energy is often a secondary class feature, and is often beneficial without selective channeling (particular for out of combat healing, or undead mongering). Turn/Command is optional. There are feats to make it better as desired, but it's mostly a gimme.
It's actually better than in previous editions, as there's pretty much no downside when you're fighting undead. Just spam channel-positive and heal and harm at your convenience, with the feat being a good option if you want to use it in more combat situations.
Channel in battle sucks.
Yesterday our 13 level cleric used it.7d6 = average 31 damage and half 15 if they make their saves (most do) and half again 7 if they are incorporeal.
At level 13!
Honestly channel is almost OK in battle at level 1 and nice/good 3.
Not good, but can still be used at level 5. After that it's just good after battle = saving CLW wands.
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You have to choose a time at which you regain spells during an one hour meditation each day. This time is fixed, for example at dawn. And you must choose which spells to prepare during that meditation.How do you leave spell slots open? I am going to play a cleric in an upcoming game, and being able to become a semi-spontaneous caster would be great.
A divine spellcaster selects and prepares spells ahead of time through prayer and meditation at a particular time of day. The time required to prepare spells is the same as it is for a wizard (1 hour), as is the requirement for a relatively peaceful environment. When preparing spells for the day, a cleric can leave some of her spell slots open. Later during that day, she can repeat the preparation process as often as she likes. During these extra sessions of preparation, she can fill these unused spell slots. She cannot, however, abandon a previously prepared spell to replace it with another one or fill a slot that is empty because she has cast a spell in the meantime. Like the first session of the day, this preparation takes at least 15 minutes, and it takes longer if she prepares more than one-quarter of his spells.
Thank you. I have never seen that. Funny that it directly contradicts the rules in the cleric section. I will try and convince my GM that I should be able to leave slots open ... ;-)
Channel in battle sucks.
Yesterday our 13 level cleric used it.
7d6 = average 31 damage and half 15 if they make their saves (most do) and half again 7 if they are incorporeal.
At level 13!
It's always in the eyxe of the beholder.
Had a 7-level game a few weeks ago, where we fight aside some dwarfen refugees. With superiour tactics and placement I managed to heal 20 NPC/PC in one round for 4d6, so 80d6 of healing at lvl 7. Thats a lot. (Even I have to heal one enemy, too)What I want to say with it is, you can't see abilities in a vaccum, you have always see the whole picture.
I'm playing a cleric in a campaign right now and I really don't see it as pointless. In fact, I find that I tend to have the most options both in and out of combat.
Need a spell cast to either buff or heal the party? Got it covered.
Need someone to step up and tank? Got it covered.
Need someone with decent martial abilities to fill in when the fighter needs a breather? Got it covered.
Need a tactical mind in battle? Good thing Wisdom is one of my primary stats.
Need someone to talk in social situations? Good thing Charisma is one of my primary stats.
Need some magical items made? Spellcraft is a class skill.
All of this is ignoring the flavor of the class, which is a lot of fun to roleplay, and the the domain abilities, which can come into play a lot if you're creative with them and can spot situations where they can come in handy. If you don't enjoy that sort of play, you probably won't enjoy the cleric. If you do, its got a lot going for it.
Yesterday our 13 level cleric used it.
7d6 = average 31 damage and half 15 if they make their saves (most do) and half again 7 if they are incorporeal.
At level 13!
Which is still infinitely better than the 3.X class ability it replaced (turn undead) which literally could not affect anything remotely near your level by level 13, since each +1 CR for undead = +3 hit dice.
Channel in battle sucks.
Yesterday our 13 level cleric used it.
7d6 = average 31 damage and half 15 if they make their saves (most do) and half again 7 if they are incorporeal.
At level 13!
Honestly channel is almost OK in battle at level 1 and nice/good 3.
Not good, but can still be used at level 5. After that it's just good after battle = saving CLW wands.
Incorporeal don't take half again from channel positive energy -- they should have taken the 15 damage not the 7. It's in the errata for the bestiary.
Channel Energy is often a secondary class feature, and is often beneficial without selective channeling (particular for out of combat healing, or undead mongering). Turn/Command is optional. There are feats to make it better as desired, but it's mostly a gimme.
It's actually better than in previous editions, as there's pretty much no downside when you're fighting undead. Just spam channel-positive and heal and harm at your convenience, with the feat being a good option if you want to use it in more combat situations.
Channel in battle sucks.
Yesterday our 13 level cleric used it.
7d6 = average 31 damage and half 15 if they make their saves (most do) and half again 7 if they are incorporeal.
At level 13!
Honestly channel is almost OK in battle at level 1 and nice/good 3.
Not good, but can still be used at level 5. After that it's just good after battle = saving CLW wands.
Which is still infinitely better than the 3.X class ability it replaced (turn undead) which literally could not affect anything remotely near your level by level 13, since each +1 CR for undead = +3 hit dice.
+1. On a side note, I also noted...
Our hypothetical cleric channels positive energy. She doesn't prepare healing spells because he can spontaneously cast them. She doesn't bother channeling positive energy in combat very much, but instead uses it to heal her allies between fights
Channel Energy doesn't scale very good. I agree with that. It caps at 35 average at 19th, which is horrible. I introduced a feat which you can take to specialize your channel energy, increasing the effect by +2 per die, and you can take it up to 3 times (so 10d6 becomes 10d6+60 or an average of 95), for those who really want to use channel as a primary option. However, there's not really any official fixes for this.
So I'd like to think I had my bases covered. :P
Incorporeal don't take half again from channel positive energy -- they should have taken the 15 damage not the 7. It's in the errata for the bestiary.
Channel in battle sucks.
Yesterday our 13 level cleric used it.
7d6 = average 31 damage and half 15 if they make their saves (most do) and half again 7 if they are incorporeal.
At level 13!
Honestly channel is almost OK in battle at level 1 and nice/good 3.
Not good, but can still be used at level 5. After that it's just good after battle = saving CLW wands.
Cool. Thanks for that info :-)
Channel in battle sucks.
Yesterday our 13 level cleric used it.
7d6 = average 31 damage and half 15 if they make their saves (most do) and half again 7 if they are incorporeal.
At level 13!
It's always in the eyxe of the beholder.
Had a 7-level game a few weeks ago, where we fight aside some dwarfen refugees. With superiour tactics and placement I managed to heal 20 NPC/PC in one round for 4d6, so 80d6 of healing at lvl 7. Thats a lot. (Even I have to heal one enemy, too)What I want to say with it is, you can't see abilities in a vaccum, you have always see the whole picture.
You can always play with number. A party of 20 isn't the norm. In a party of 100 and your healing would be fantastic ;-)
Although the errata in the bestiary is great. I must admit I'm a bit lazy. I must get up to date on all errata. Thanks again Abraham.
Cool. Thanks for that info :-)
No problem -- I actually like channel energy -- and people your cap is wrong -- it caps at 42 damage -- 12d6 if you have the phylactery of *whatever* energy channeling.
Might not seem like much but it is there.
Also with a trait and a feat you can have the DC be 13+1/2 level +cha mod. Which *could* be a nice comfortable 23+13 at level 20 *but you neglect your wisdom to do this -- more likely to be around 31 (14 cha +6 item +4 inherent).
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It is really necessary for every character to have and maximize every skill?
Nope, which is why I never said that. I said 4/level should be the minimum every character gets.
But it is exactly the route you are following.
Rise the class with 2 skill/level to 4 skill level.
But that mean that the class with more skills get nerfed. So the skills they have should be raise to keep the balance.
And so on ad infinitum.
If the players were interested and willing to divide the skills so that they were capable of doing a bit of anything it would be potentially interesting.
But the average player reaction would be "I can maximize 2 more skills!!"
And then he will again lament that he has no skills to be capable to swim in a emergency or to stabilize a wounded friend or plenty of other things.
Giving more skills will not make them play a more credible character that know how to do several things at a acceptable competence level. The players will construct the usual "Highest expert in 4 field (instead of 2 as before) , total klutz in every other thing".
It will enforce this kind of choice, not deter from it.
Clerics are pretty front loaded, but most of their stuff scales with level, meaning that your lower level abilities continue to get better (see domain powers, channel energy, etc).
Don't take this as a snark remark (because it isn't), but we did agree that Channel doesn't scale that well. Cure spells sure don't scale well.
Sure channel can be great if you house rule changes same with cure spells, but this isn't a house rule thread.As for Cleric spells, some scale but a lot of their spells actually don't scale well (or not at all). Agree resist energy and protection from energy scales nice, but most spell casting classes get those spells.
Divine favor scale some, and divine power scales some but both was hit by the nerf bat (thanks god).
Greater Magic Weapon and Magic Vestment scale some but was nerfed in 3.5 and Greater Magic Weapon was nerfed even more in Pathfinder since it now only bypass DR magic (good nerf I guess). Both spells are also on the Sorcerer /Wizard spell list and they get GMW as a 3rd level spell.
Cleric spells scaling? Most Clerics spells actually don't scale that well, or don't scale at all.
As for domain powers most of them don't scale that well (Icicle, Aura of Protection, etc) and/or takes a standard action to activate (Inspiring Word, etc). Fire/acid Resistance, etc are nice but with resist energy you only save a spell or some healing.
Some domain powers like Liberation, Sun and Travel Domain are great, but not because they scale, but because the powers are good from the start.
Edit: If we add 3.x spalt books and/or house rules all classes can be more powerful or fun, but lets stick to pathfinder.
Again to me it's not a matter of more power....well with the exception I would like some more healing spells and better channeling :-)
Again, no sark remark intended.