RPG Superstar Season 9 Top 16, RPG Superstar 2015 Top 32
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I am writing a modern game right now and someone has mentioned the HERO system. It sounds like it would work well with my game. The problem is, my group doesn't want to learn an entirely new game right now.
Can someone tell more about the system?
How close is it to Pathfinder?
What is the combat system like?
What about leveling and character customization?
How well would psionics work with the system?
AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH!
HERO is GREAT! If you are an accountant or enjoy a lot of algebra with your gaming systems.
Otherwise I would set the hefty book down and back away slowly.
AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH!
HERO is GREAT! If you are an accountant or enjoy a lot of algebra with your gaming systems.
Otherwise I would set the hefty book down and back away slowly.
now now, it's not that bad.
I didn't say it was bad -- I enjoy calculus... most of my friends however did not.
And explaining combat wasn't a fun task after you finally walk them through simply making the characters.
I quote, "I used to like a non-class based system where I could simply build the character I wanted, but... could we just play D&D now? I'll be the fighter."
I am writing a modern game right now and someone has mentioned the HERO system. It sounds like it would work well with my game. The problem is, my group doesn't want to learn an entirely new game right now.
Can someone tell more about the system?
How close is it to Pathfinder?
What is the combat system like?
What about leveling and character customization?
How well would psionics work with the system?
Mental powers are in the core book, so i would hazard they work 'well'.
(psionic heroes are a common genre)Combat is fairly flexible and also reactive since they include an "abort" mechanic.
It is different from pathfinder.
'Leveling' is it is done in D&D is not in the game. Rather players get to 'spend' the experience points they earn as advancements/improvements/new acquisions.
Amusingly, for all the complaints that it is math heavy, i have players who struggle to get their numbers in order in PF with the varying bonuses for whichever combat thing is going on, and be at ease in a similar combat of Hero.
I can try to answer other system questions for you if you wish.
I didn't say it was bad -- I enjoy calculus... most of my friends however did not.
And explaining combat wasn't a fun task after you finally walk them through simply making the characters.
I quote, "I used to like a non-class based system where I could simply build the character I wanted, but... could we just play D&D now? I'll be the fighter."
I understand what you are meaning (i think) but i think equating it to calculus is misinforming people who have not experienced the game system and making it sound far more intimidating then it is. It uses addition, and division. There's no derivatives or anything else calculus in it.
Honestly HERO isn't as bad as I make it out to be.
I recommend that a 'cheat sheet' for building the characters is in order to simply reduce the wordiness and head rush of simply flipping through the book.
Once all the numbers are known and identified for the players it is pretty simply to use.
It's just figuring out the acronyms and system mastery. Character creation is the hardest part and can depend on the GM a lot.
It does have all the benefits and drawbacks of being a game in its... 7th? edition now and has been around a while.
One should be sure to make sure people realize you are talking about HERO and not palladium's Heroes Unlimited, as I have seen confusion of the two in the past.
I would honestly use Tri-Stat Dx over HERO personally (or any of the Tri-stat derivatives). As they tend to be a bit less wordy and faster to pick up, though with a tendency to be much simpler in mechanics too.
Honestly HERO isn't as bad as I make it out to be. and other stuff
I'll agree with pretty much most of this as well. (and thank you Abraham)
Character creation and establishing your genre guidelines are the biggest "hurdle" as gameplay itself is pretty smooth, and in my opinion, damn fun. (6th edition btw!)
I very very much prefer HERO over Tri-Stat myself, BUT Tri-Stat can be a better learning step. It's almost the equivalent of HERO-Light.
I am writing a modern game right now and someone has mentioned the HERO system. It sounds like it would work well with my game. The problem is, my group doesn't want to learn an entirely new game right now.
Can someone tell more about the system?
How close is it to Pathfinder?
What is the combat system like?
What about leveling and character customization?
How well would psionics work with the system?
1) HERO is a very flexible system that can be used to run multiple genres. The initial learning curve is fairly steep and the math involved can be intimidating when you start getting into heavy customization.
2) It's very different from D&D/Pathfinder. HERO is a point-based system where everything from "ability scores" (Characteristics), skills, perks, talents, and powers are "purchased" with points (either from creation or from "experience").3) Combat is generally fairly fast and tactical. In general, it probably takes less time than mid-high level combat in Pathfinder once you get used to it.
4) There is no level mechanic; everything is based off of the number of points. Customization is the system's greatest strength; you can quite literally model just about anything, with a bit of imagination.
5) Psionics can be modeled quite easily. Various "mental attacks" are included in the list of powers; other "psionic" powers such as pyrokinesis, telekinesis, etc. can also be easily modeled.
Some caveats:
a) As with any highly customizable system, characters can range from almost useless to "crazy broken" powerful, even if built on the same number of points.
b) Character creation can take a long time. Starting with a focused character concept speeds things up a lot, but the sheer number of options available can seem overwhelming.
Can someone tell more about the system?
As others have said it is a 'generic' point based system. While it can be 'anything' system...I think it handles super heroes very well...other it is meh at. Though it might be good for what you have in mind.
How close is it to Pathfinder?
It is pretty far from Pathfinder...like on the other end of the scale kinda far.
What is the combat system like?
I find it can be slow and clunky. The 'tactics' are more gamist type things and anti intuitive. It can be fun though. Part of the problem is if you have a fight with a wide range of speed...or people with VPP it can really slow down. I also just don't like games that don't allow you to attack then move...attacking ends your action.
What about leveling and character customization?
As people say...characters don't level. You get x number of points to buy your stats, skills, etc. As you adventure you get more points pretty much to spend in the same manner.
How well would psionics work with the system?
There are rules for mental powers and even stats assigned to them. You can even turn other powers into 'psionic' type abilities.
Overall I like it...but it requires alot of start up work by the GM and needs house rules. It is a very genric game where alot of things are left up to the GM on what he wants in his games.
I also recommend asking on the Hero Boards and asking there...while the Heroes Boards have a rather larger share of system elitist than most other gaming message boards I go to...you probably would get better answears there.
I like the HERO system for superhero games, but I would probably not use it for a (semi-)realistic modern game. The skill system isn't very good (IMO), ability scores aren't particularly fine-grained at the normal human level, the vehicle rules stink (last time I checked, which would have been decades ago, I admit), etc.
Maybe Spycraft or Mutants & Masterminds would be more up your alley. (I'm not a big fan of Tri-Stat, although my only experience is with "Silver Age Sentinels".)
I'm running a modern game using Chaosium's Basic RolePlaying system. That works pretty well and is less scary than HERO. Really depends if your game 'depends' on a set of rules or if anything will do, I guess. TSR's old Alternity was a good system for a contemporary game also.
S.
Is there Hero Fantasy and is it any good?
I gather 'not so much' from previous posts...
Is there Hero Fantasy and is it any good?
I gather 'not so much' from previous posts...
Yes, there's a Fantasy Hero game. I'm not too enthused about it, but it has some fans. For instance, here's a campaign journal from a guy who was running the "Age of Worms" adventure path using Fantasy Hero. (Warning: May contain spoilers and French language.)
The problem is, my group doesn't want to learn an entirely new game right now.
Hero is not for you then. Hero has a steep learning curve and if your players are already resistant, it will be an impossible sell.
Hero's strength is its flexibility. There is little it can not do. With that flexibility comes complexity. Honestly, no more than Pathfinder but it is a completely different paradigm. Imagine trying to learn Pathfinder if you did not know what a Class was.
Another beauty of the Hero system, and a large part of the complexity, is that it does not add rules with each supplement. Powers/Magic/Psionics are all handled by the same basic building blocks contained in the core rule book. The Grimoire only shows you how to use the powers that are in the core book to build Spells. Once you understand the powers, there is a lot less time spent looking up the effects of any given spell.
I highly recommend Killer Shrike's site. It shows you how to do D&D with Hero. Even Pathfinder.
Since your group does not want to learn a new system, I think True20 would be an easier sell. It will feel more familiar to your group while having a more generic basis to build a modern campaign from.
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Part of the problem is if you have a fight with a wide range of speed...or people with VPP it can really slow down. I also just don't like games that don't allow you to attack then move...attacking ends your action.
VPP refers to a Variable Power Pool, a form of Power Framework.
The HERO system has what are called Power Frameworks, which allow you to switch between powers, but they operate off of a single pool of points, so you just can't use all of those powers at the same time.
One type of Power Framework is a Multipower, which could be used to represent (as an example) Green Arrow's quiver. He has arrows that do various things...explosive arrows, entangling arrows, sonic arrows, boxing glove arrows, what have you...but has has to choose which arrow to use. Multipower lets you purchase a number of slots for powers relatively cheaply, with the caveat that the effects of the powers come from a single base pool of points. Or, consider Ultra Boy from the Legion of Super Heroes...he has a number of powers that he can use, but only one at a time. That would be a Multipower.
The Variable Power Pool is more costly, and flexible. It's less economical that a Multipower, but you don't need to specify exactly what it can do. You purchase powers with it on the fly (and that's why it slows down the game). This can be used to represent (for example) the vast array of spells or powers available to a Dr. Strange or Doctor Fate or Zatanna (or perhaps a Green Lantern). Basically, if you have a power that can do just about anything, and is only limited by the hero's imagination, that would be a Variable Power Pool. These can be unbalancing, and some GMs wouldn't allow them as a result.
They used to have a third type of Power Framework called an Elemental Control, but this was eliminated in 6th Edition.
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Since your group does not want to learn a new system, I think True20 would be an easier sell. It will feel more familiar to your group while having a more generic basis to build a modern campaign from.
I would concur that True20 would be a good choice. I'd also consider Spycraft or D20 Modern (if you can find a copy).
Since your group does not want to learn a new system, I think True20 would be an easier sell. It will feel more familiar to your group while having a more generic basis to build a modern campaign from.I would concur that True20 would be a good choice. I'd also consider Spycraft or D20 Modern (if you can find a copy).
Yeah why not d20 modern if you are already into d20? Its really underestimated for some reason...
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Yeah why not d20 modern if you are already into d20? Its really underestimated for some reason...
One problem with D20 Modern is that it may be hard to find a copy (or multiple copies for a group) if you don't already own one.
It's possible that your FLGS has one squirreled away, but it's out of print, and I've seen some ridiculous prices from some online vendors.
But, yeah, I agree that the game is underappreciated.
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RPG Superstar Season 9 Top 16, RPG Superstar 2015 Top 32
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I have all the D20 Modern books, and most of the group has all the PDFs. In fact, we finished a D20 Modern game about a year ago.
I love the D20 modern system and I feel it works for most modern and sci-fi games. I do not feel it works well with super powers, magic, or psionics. The Basic/Advanced/Prestige class system is an excellent way to create modern character, but not so good for magical or powerful ones.
I should give some more background on this game I am writing, and why HERO caught my interest.
The story has been brewing for about ten years, and the concept is similar to X-men meets X-files.
The Gifted
There are people in this world with abilities beyond the natural possibilities. Some of these abilities are subtle, like extreme speed and agility. Few are extreme and go so far as to control the elements themselves. These are the Gifted. The Agency of Paranormal Science and Investigation (APSI, but often just called PSI) was set up to monitor these people, control them, and keep the public from knowing about them.
The Gifted are like the x-men, in that each one is born with abilities and that the powers develop slowly over time as the person grows up. However, instead of a limited number of specific powers, the gifted can practice and focus to either make certain abilities or powers more powerful or discover new powers. For example, one character started out with the ability to control fire, but later develops telekinesis and even the power to absorb life energy to fuel his powers. Another character can read minds but later learns how to teleport.
Now, I can use a modern psionics system (or the adapted advanced psionics from the "Restless Dreams" PDF.) I like the power points system, as the Gifted don't have unlimited uses of their powers. In fact, if they push too far, it can seriously harm them. But the advance classes for psionics are not going to allow for all the possible themes I want to have (i.e. nature, darkness, death, life, etc.)
As it is, I have been planning on using the D20 Modern game and the Restless Dreams PDF. I have already talked to my players about what type of characters they want to play, and I have created special classes just for those characters. I have adapted the D20 Modern rules to be more Pathfinder like, the list of possible powers for each class to include wizard, cleric, ranger, druid, and paladin spells, and I have changed the health system so that it is tied to the psionics system for when the characters push themselves too far.
As it is, I can totally run the game and still have fun, which is always my number one goal. The reason why I had my sights on the HERO system is the point based leveling system, which feels closer to the concept of the game idea I had from the very beginning (characters who have complete control over how they advance in their abilities.)
I have till October (the group is currently playing CotCT)and should have time to at least look at the HERO system. I doubt from what I seen here that we will use it though. Maybe sometime down the road with a different group I could try the game with the HERO system.
The HERO system I think would work good for your game. Put giving what you have said about your players I would say that you need to do alot of the grunt work to make it easier for them to get into the system. For instance I did not actualy build my first three champions characters. The GM took my concept and did all the mechanical work for it. I now build my own but it was because I was playing it and creating new powers for my characters.
And there is a basic set of rules some place which would be good to get started on it...and once you are on it building character is like crack(I think I have at any one time 5 to 10 characters waiting in the wings)
Other than that I think you might be able to do Mutant & Masterminds though I have never played it I have heard good things about it.
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I really wish gamers would stop making it sound like you need to be some sort of mathematical engineer to grasp Hero System. If you graduated from High School you can do the math. It's not that hard. Soem of the newer books even do most of the math for you. The 6E Champions hardcover has a superhero gallery section that cuts down on about 50-75% superhero character creation.
In the end it depends on how much work both the players and GM want to put into running, using and playing a system. HS may require more work than other existing rpgs yet in the end it is also more rewarding.
Beyond that Dragonchess Player pretty much covers what I wanted to say to the OP.
Yeah why not d20 modern if you are already into d20? Its really underestimated for some reason...One problem with D20 Modern is that it may be hard to find a copy (or multiple copies for a group) if you don't already own one.
It's possible that your FLGS has one squirreled away, but it's out of print, and I've seen some ridiculous prices from some online vendors.
But, yeah, I agree that the game is underappreciated.
What happened to photocopies and pdfs?
I was also going to suggest GURPS Powers etc but you said your players don't want to learn a new system,so...
But if you do decide to learn a new one; GURPS, man,seriously
I really wish gamers would stop making it sound like you need to be some sort of mathematical engineer to grasp Hero System.
This. If you like the flexibility of a point buy system (similar to GURPS) but more geared toward super powers, HERO is a great system. I haven't played in quite some time, but Champions has always been one of my favorite super hero RPGS.
Of course, I've heard good things about Mutants and Masterminds 3 & DC Adventures, so I do want to check them out as well.
Also, not enough not enough RPGs have a Lucha Libre book! I need to remember to order that one.
I really wish gamers would stop making it sound like you need to be some sort of mathematical engineer to grasp Hero System.
I don't think you NEED to be, but the only people I know who actually liked HERO were a mathematician, an engineer, and a physics PhD candidate. God's honest truth. :) I've given HERO about three solid shots and I find its creation system is fine (if you've got a couple hours or a good spreadsheet) but gameplay is clunky and non intuitive, IMHO and in my personal experience of course.
I echo the Mutants and Masterminds suggestion. It has almost as much flexibility as HERO (which is still a crapton of flexibility) with its point buy system, but it is a lot more intuitive (and involves math only with whole numbers). 2nd Edition is d20 based so if you're familiar with 3.x/Pathfinder you will understand the basics of the engine. In fact the last HERO system game I played, we switched to Mutants and Masterminds 2nd Ed halfway through and were much happier (combat went much faster for one thing).
I really wish gamers would stop making it sound like you need to be some sort of mathematical engineer to grasp Hero System.I don't think you NEED to be, but the only people I know who actually liked HERO were a mathematician, an engineer, and a physics PhD candidate. God's honest truth. :) I've given HERO about three solid shots and I find its creation system is fine (if you've got a couple hours or a good spreadsheet) but gameplay is clunky and non intuitive, IMHO and in my personal experience of course.
I echo the Mutants and Masterminds suggestion. It has almost as much flexibility as HERO (which is still a crapton of flexibility) with its point buy system, but it is a lot more intuitive (and involves math only with whole numbers). 2nd Edition is d20 based so if you're familiar with 3.x/Pathfinder you will understand the basics of the engine. In fact the last HERO system game I played, we switched to Mutants and Masterminds 2nd Ed halfway through and were much happier (combat went much faster for one thing).
Well I've never played Hero so I wouldn't know...
But I'm in Astrophysics/Astrobiology and I do prefer rules-lite systems. Occam's Razor and all
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RPG Superstar Season 9 Top 16, RPG Superstar 2015 Top 32
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Some friends of mine actually had some HERO books and PDFs. I have been able to read through the 5th ed Sidekick, and some of volume 1 for 6th ed.
The system looks pretty neat, and I would love to play it sometime. I would rather be player in my first game though. I find learning a game as a player is easier for me to do then being a GM.
I have also been given some Mutant and Mastermind PDFs, so I will be looking through those as well.
Thank you everyone, I greatly appreciate the introduction to a new system.
Some friends of mine actually had some HERO books and PDFs. I have been able to read through the 5th ed Sidekick, and some of volume 1 for 6th ed.
The system looks pretty neat, and I would love to play it sometime. I would rather be player in my first game though. I find learning a game as a player is easier for me to do then being a GM.
I have also been given some Mutant and Mastermind PDFs, so I will be looking through those as well.
Thank you everyone, I greatly appreciate the introduction to a new system.
As much as i like the HERO system, (though i'd say this is true for ANY system really) i'd have to say that it is definitely easier to learn as a player for your 1st playtime.
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I think in rpg where you have to build your character from scratch it will always be more time consuming than one where all the information you need is gen to you. YMMV. Funny that M&M has been brought up. I keep hearing that 3E of the rules is getting closer to Hero Syste. Which I find ironic. The more a riles light system adds more options the less rules light it becomes. As an example if you use just use the Savage Worlds core book than it is rules light. If you start adding more options from other SW sourcebooks you start to get more amd more rules until it stops being rules light.
To me that is the difference between rules heavy and rules light. The first you get alot of ruls up front. The second you have them spread out more yet if one uses all the options it becomes rules heavy over time.
You can also buy software that speeds up the process if you do not want to do the math. The link: https://www.herogames.com/viewItem.htm?itemID=202841 for the main program.
The two links for the cire books: https://www.herogames.com/viewItem.htm?itemID=242940
https://www.herogames.com/viewItem.htm?itemID=240763
So there are alternatives for those who do not want to do the math.
I was a long time player of Hero. In my opinion, Hero combat is no more time consuming or non-intuitive than any other crunchy system. I believe a lot of the problem people have is they expect D&D/Pathfinder combat and Hero is completely alien to that.
In my estimation, no system that I am aware of can beat Hero's flexibility (with the exception of PDQ). Sorry, G.U.R.P.S. and M&M, Hero still wins out. If you want a system you can tinker with and create your own world with, Hero is it.
The problem with Hero is getting people over their aversion to something completely different.
That being said, I consider M&M to be Hero lite. It has a lot of the same flexibility without so much of the granularity. Being d20, it might be an easier sell to your players and still have the flexibility you want.
Hero is a great system, although I think it's badly suited to a fantasy game. I played Champions 1st edition, then 2nd, for superhero gaming only. Creating new characters was almost more fun than playing the game. It is about as different from Pathfinder as it is possible to be and still be part of the same hobby. All hardware is created with points the same as characters, for example. So instead of a generic suit of plate armour, you'd buy 9 points of armour with the Focus disadvantage (i.e. only works when you're wearing it).
I don't think maths is big part of the game per se, but there is a lot of 'working out'. Characters offensive skill plus modifiers is matched against characters defensive skill plus modifiers to calculate the chance of hitting (base 50-50 with equal characters), then damage modified by the defending characters defence. Combat modifiers change constantly (think both characters with combat expertise and power attack 3.5, deciding how much to put on defence and offence). Combat takes a long time, and uses 'segmented movement' so that characters with high speed act more times than slower characters, which is great for superheros, but in a more realistic frame is probably unnecessarily cumbersome since everyone will be on about the same (low) speed.
It's an incredibly flexible system and if you can think of an effect you can fit it into the rules - however the same is true of Pathfinder as long as as a ref you don't feel obliged to stick to the rules (e.g. if you want a low level Goblin cleric with 'bestow curse' as a special ability, you as ref can do this, but it breaks the rules - whereas in Hero you could just make a goblin with one forty point power).
Since in Hero, you basically have a rules framework rather than a set of cast iron rules, it will suit some playing groups and not others. I think probably more than many systems it requires that the ref know the rules better than the players.
Get the rules and have a look.
...although I think it's badly suited to a fantasy game.
At the risk of turning this into a debate, would you mind elaborating why you think Hero is badly suited to a Fantasy game?
I play in a pulp/super-hero game using Hero rules. This is the first time I've used these rules although the GM has more experience. The complex part was character creation but you can get spreadsheets to help with that. However, the rules are relatively simple once you start playing, combats are resolved quite quickly and we rarely have to consult the rulebook during a session.
Heh, I've never tried it so I'm not speaking from a position of authority, (and has the qualifier that any system in any setting will work for a good gm who knows his/her players) but I'm thinking there are a whole bunch of minor things none of which are crippling on their own but between them would make it less than satisfying.
The combat system is probably too cumbersome for drawn out sword fights with multiple combatants - it really shines for super-powers and I think is a good, lethal system for modern fire fights, but hacking away at armoured opponents, not so much.
There's no where much for 'fighty' characters to 'go' as they progress - there are limits on stats for 'normal' humans, perhaps resulting in 'ho hum, I guess I'll take another level in 'weapon use, sword'
I think a gm would have to work quite hard to make sure that magic was balanced and fit a theme, it could be done for sure, but you'd probably start with the magic system of your favourite frpg and try to duplicate it with Hero (just letting a player loose with the rulebook would be a sure fire way of breaking your game on day one).
Magic items would be easy to make with the system, but how do you handle treasure vs experience when you normally buy advancement with experience points. This can be a bit of a problem in a modern setting with characters who didn't pay points for firearms (say) pick up a gun dropped by an adversary in the first scene and keep it, but equipment is very standardised outside a fantasy setting.
That's just some instinctive thoughts, to back up my instinctive reaction. I wouldn't say 'don't do it', but I think there's a fair chance that if you did, you'd be wanting to go back to RQ, d20 or Rollmaster
Magic items would be easy to make with the system, but how do you handle treasure vs experience when you normally buy advancement with experience points. This can be a bit of a problem in a modern setting with characters who didn't pay points for firearms (say) pick up a gun dropped by an adversary in the first scene and keep it, but equipment is very standardised outside a fantasy setting.
In a heroic (as opposed to superheroic) setting like Fantasy Hero, you don't buy non-magical gear (like armor, normal weapons, etc) with points. That's handled with cash. Modern Hero characters even have mechanics for an "equipment pool" so they can have the gun or whatever other device/gadget they want(from a DM approved list of choices of course.) on their "current list" if they really want to.
"can i keep the autopistol we just got?"
"yep, it has an allocation value of 18 points."
For myself, i have successfully run multiple genres using HERO.
Ninja Hero (Martial arts action/tournament setting)
Fantasy Hero (sword and sorcery)
Agent Hero (like james bond,twilight 2000, etc)
Champions (super heroes)
Dark/Horror Hero (like call of cthulhu)
Each one had a different feel and was viable for its genre.
...although I think it's badly suited to a fantasy game.At the risk of turning this into a debate, would you mind elaborating why you think Hero is badly suited to a Fantasy game?
Can I take a "whack" at this:
And then, there is a problem that almost all games have vs. Pathfinder: A shocking lack of quality adventure suppliments.
I played Hero for many years. I have played both 4th edition and 5th edition. And like Rathendar, I have run many non-supers campaigns. Just my resume. Obviously, I am going to be a bit biased.
The combat system is probably too cumbersome for drawn out sword fights with multiple combatants…
With heavy armor, yes. Without heavy armor, not so much. I never found Hero combat to be any more cumbersome than any other crunchy system.
There's no where much for 'fighty' characters to 'go' as they progress…
If your GM does not allow Super Skills or cinematic use of Powers. It would be like a Pathfinder DM not allowing Class Abilities and Feats.
… there are limits on stats for 'normal' humans, perhaps resulting in 'ho hum, I guess I'll take another level in 'weapon use, sword'
Not hard limits. It does become cost prohibitive though. Some see this as a feature since everyone does not have wild/crazy stats.
I think a gm would have to work quite hard to make sure that magic was balanced and fit a theme…
I agree with you here. If you charge them for every spell, players complain they can not build the uber powerful wizards of D&D. Again, a feature for some.
…but how do you handle treasure vs experience when you normally buy advancement with experience points.
As noted, for a heroic campaign, mundane equipment does not cost points. If you want magical equipment, you have to pay for it. This is just a paradigm shift from D&D. Instead of getting cool stuff for free you have to pay for it. As often as I see people complain about the Christmas tree effect, I think we could just as easily chalk this one up to a feature too.
For instance: what is the difference between an "Int 18" and an "Int 19"?
Agreed. However, most system have this flaw. Hero may show less favor to attributes since in most Heroic campaigns you are looking at something between 0 and +4 (maybe 5 if you really want to push it). On the other hand, Most Characteristics contribute to other things as well.
Even in a system that does have more granularity like G.U.R.P.S. how many people are running around with a 15 in a stat? True20 gives you a total of +6 to start with that has to be divided among all your stats.
As all things in Hero, racial abilites must be "bought" with points.
I call feature! Now all those nifty cool races are not so much better than humans because they actually have to pay for all those nifty cool things instead of getting them for free. If you like playing ECL races, yes, you are going to feel cheated. If you like playing humans, you will finally feel like you are not being cheated.
The relative cost of magic spells and abilities can seriously limit a Wizard or Priest character.
If you pay standard price. Again, this could be a feature. I think it finally balances your spell casting 'classes' against your non-spell casting 'classes'. Why do you think the Fighters suck argument never dies?
If you do not like this 'feature' there were quite a few suggestions in Fantasy Hero to let spell casters get more Powers on the cheap.
And then, there is a problem that almost all games have vs. Pathfinder: A shocking lack of quality adventure suppliments.
You got me here. :)
Some things HERO game system does well;
Initiative; fast guys are fast and always go before slower peeps.
power creations; with only a few exceptions; if you can concieve it; you can build it.
skill systems; nice list; easy to use.
skill vs skill; usually 11- on 3d6 +your advantages; -thiers.
order of actions in a round; basically anything to do with time
ease of understanding; pretty much 5 pts is 1d6 of effect for everything in the game.
nice customization of powers with limitations and advantages.
some things HERO game system does not do well.
Ease of character creation; while it is a whole lot of fun to create characters and tweak points and such; when your a gm and need to create a lot of npc's and such; minor villians and henchmen that you dont want cookie cutters of and want to give individual personalities; this game be very time consuming.
Fights generally take a long time compared to other games; speed is god; the more speed; the more actions you get; low speed characters get bored waiting for thier turn.
Everyday items, gear, and money; the game doesnt do this well; while your character could buy a car or even a fire extinguisher; you cant buy it in the game with money and need to use hero points; so being rich is meaningless as money is not used to buy anything. This at times can be very problematic.
Everyday items, gear, and money…
This misconception really needs to die. Hero has its flaws, but this simply is not one of them.
I've gone back over my 5th ed Heroes book and I'm reminded again that I really like this system -- but really fear playing it due to the learning curve.
But yeah it's a neat system -- I would just go with tri-stat, BESM, or mutants and masterminds first simply due to a more 'friendly' feel to the books.
I ran a successful and much-beloved Heroic Fantasy game in the HERO system under 4th Edition rules for nearly 3 years. It was ridiculously simple to do, and all I had to do as the GM was enforce a few rules and provide a few archetypes for my players to adhere to.
- I enforced "Normal Characteristic Maximums" - and suddenly the issues of Speed and Dexterity and outrageously high Combat Values became a thing of the past.
- I enforced Racial Disadvantage/Package deals - and suddenly people who wanted to play Nonhumans had an inherent balancing factor against those who played Humans rather than something-for-nothing laundry lists.
- I enforced strict construction rules for Magic - and suddenly my players found themselves seeking out teachers and quests to improve their magic, their items, and their abilities. (Literally, the Players brought ME plotlines so that they could expand their magical ability... it was awesome)
- I reminded them that they had money and could use it to purchase equipment, and suddenly people stopped asking me how many points their sword cost and started haggling with me over prices in the market.
All of this, of course, just proves that the system is only there to facilitate roleplaying, not become the end-all be-all of the game. And that a lot of the misconceptions about HERO are just that - misconceptions. Or as CF put it:
This misconception really needs to die. Hero has its flaws, but this simply is not one of them.
My opinion of Hero's flaws:
-Radical departure from D&D mechanics
-Steep learning curve
-Vast array of options is intimidating
-High Speed and Dexterity rule the battlefield
-Combats between high Resistant Defenses can drag
-It is often easier to knock an opponent unconscious rather than kill them which often leads to morally questionable coup de grace
-Stun lottery: lethal attacks do varying amounts of incapacitating damage which can lead to weird effects
-More oversight required from the GM
-Lack of granularity
-Generic feel
My opinion of Hero's flaws:
-Radical departure from D&D mechanics
-Steep learning curve
-Vast array of options is intimidating
-High Speed and Dexterity rule the battlefield
-Combats between high Resistant Defenses can drag
-It is often easier to knock an opponent unconscious rather than kill them which often leads to morally questionable coup de grace
-Stun lottery: lethal attacks do varying amounts of incapacitating damage which can lead to weird effects
-More oversight required from the GM
-Lack of granularity
-Generic feel
You left out one.
-Lack of quality adventure suppliments.Hero does quite well with setting and rule books, but Mr. Long firmly believes that "adventures don't sell."
Hero does quite well with setting and rule books, but Mr. Long firmly believes that "adventures don't sell." (This ignores the truth that adventures do drive the sale of your core products.)
True.
Two points I would like to make that I do not think exactly dispute your statement, but add some nuance are that I have heard (read actually) Steve say that they tried adventures and they simply did not sell and that there is a line of pdf only Pulp Adventures currently.
Now, as to the sales quote, you could argue about the quality of the adventures. He was not specific which adventures he was speaking of. Personally, I steal from everywhere else. With the Hero Bestiary, I found it easy enough to use other company's adventures with minor modifications to Hero stats to better fit.
I am not a big fan of Pulp and I have no idea about the quality of the Pulp adventures and if there is much demand for them.
Hero does quite well with setting and rule books, but Mr. Long firmly believes that "adventures don't sell." (This ignores the truth that adventures do drive the sale of your core products.)
I have to admit that I can't think of too many "classic" superhero adventures. I think that D&D adventures are more memorable because you have a large palette of weird and wonderful monsters to choose from, whereas superhero games try to limit the number of supervillains somewhat.
I did like "Bad Medicine For Dr. Drugs", though.