|
okay so in kingmaker the adventurers have found Vordakai in his throne room.
rd 1 party is hit by Symbol of Pain over throne, everyone fails.
Barbarian charges and hits Vord once,(has haste so could have hit more)
-30 dmg/dr reduces to 15
Witch uses spectral hand wand
Vord uses waves of fatigue
Zen archer monk misses repeatedly
Thief moves in tries to tumble past fails gets hit by AOO and is paralyzed
Gunslinger gets within touch range and fires once with pepper box, hits for 17 dmg/dr does nothing
rd 2 Barbarian attacks 3 times misses all 3 due to debuffs
Witch uses cure spell with spectral hand wand misses
Vord uses fire snake hits majority of party for 43 dmg
Zen archer monk hits once, 18 dmg/dr reduces to 3
Thief twitches
Gunslinger fires twice, hits both, for 12 and 18
rd 3 barbarian attacks 3 times, hits once, 32 dmg/dr 17 dmg
witch cure spectral hand hits for 24
Vord casts bone shatter on witch, fails save and is nearly killed from this
Zen archer misses
Thief twitches
Gunslinger fires twice, hit both, 16 and 14
rd 4 barbarian attacks 3 times misses
Witch cure on self
Vord lightning bolt gunslinger and thief, 32 dmg to thief 16 to gunslinger
Zen archer misses
Thief twitches
gunslinger fires once, hits, 17 dmg, reloads
rd 5 barbarian attacks 3 times, hits once, 27 dmg/dr 12 dmg
witch does the bad luck think on vord, multiple dice rolls take the lowest
Vord fails concentrate, barb AOO misses, Vord fireballs the room, 43 dmg to barb, thief(now unconscious), 21 to monk, gunslinger
Zen archer hits twice, no dmg due to DR
Thief bleeds
Gunslinger fires twice, hits, 15 dmg and 17 dmg
rd 6 pretty much rinse and repeat for 3 more rounds
Party breaks and runs, dragging unconscious but stable thief, Vord also does not chase since bastard new technology(to him that is) was more effective than magic missile. Party chooses to GTFO with teleport and preps for new assault. Vord Scries and waits till next day teleports to castle to say "HI".
Protection from Missiles up and Gunslinger and Zen Archer both become mostly useless. Party fights to the bitter end, some die some dont, Vord falls back due to injuries.... (magical pistol being use as blunt instrument with fighters BAB still bypasses DR)
So basically gunslinger and witch were the most useful in the fight, yes it was situational, but when you get touch attack with every attack and you have a good BAB it is a little overwhelming.
This along with other playtests made me feel like the gunslinger needs to use monk BAB instead of Fighter.
Yea, the gun is kinda like a ranged morningstar, doing two kinds of damage helps out alot on dr cases. A magic gun over comes three kinds of dr.
Im not so sure a Magic gun does magic damage when used as a blunt melee weapon. Even the gunslinger himself (RAW) needs to spend grit to use it as a melee weapon, This is like taking a +1 bow and trying to use it in melee to overcome DR.
I'd say thats cheese. Did the fighter have catch off guard feat? He couldn't even use the weapon (especially that way) normally.
The gunslinger had a magic gun? why did the fighter not have a magic weapon?
|
|
None of the players minmax. But they are built reasonably well. The party is lvl 10 and Vord has been boosted up a little bit. The barbarian uses a falchion so it doesn't bypass dr of Vord. All of us are ex military and all of us insist to do a normal melee attack with a gun is a part of normal gun training(gunslinger pistol whip has special effects when using grit) plus I own what pathfinder calls a pepperbox, I call a percussion revolver and it was clearly designed to smash someone in the head with it.(can we post pictures here)
All of the party members in the first fight had taken a total -6 to attack from debuffs. Making the zen archer and barbarian have a really hard time hitting him. Whereas gunslinger was like "still not hard for me haha"
I don't keep pc sheets with me but off the top of head.
Lvl 10 gunslinger
Dex22 (magic item helps this)
Int 16(uses combat focus)
Pepperbox +2
Feats combat focus, pointblank, weapon focus, rapid reload, and other shooty feats
Barb was built to critical with falchion and then do horrible critical effects(he threatened everytime he hit but he could never confirm)
Zen archer has shooty feats also(only 14 str but 22 dex and 18 wis)
Did I answer all the questions?
None of the players minmax. But they are built reasonably well. The party is lvl 10 and Vord has been boosted up a little bit. The barbarian uses a falchion so it doesn't bypass dr of Vord. All of us are ex military and all of us insist to do a normal melee attack with a gun is a part of normal gun training(gunslinger pistol whip has special effects when using grit) plus I own what pathfinder calls a pepperbox, I call a percussion revolver and it was clearly designed to smash someone in the head with it.(can we post pictures here)
All of the party members in the first fight had taken a total -6 to attack from debuffs. Making the zen archer and barbarian have a really hard time hitting him. Whereas gunslinger was like "still not hard for me haha"
I don't keep pc sheets with me but off the top of head.
Lvl 10 gunslinger
Dex22 (magic item helps this)
Int 16(uses combat focus)
Pepperbox +2
Feats combat focus, pointblank, weapon focus, rapid reload, and other shooty featsBarb was built to critical with falchion and then do horrible critical effects(he threatened everytime he hit but he could never confirm)
Zen archer has shooty feats also(only 14 str but 22 dex and 18 wis)
Did I answer all the questions?
Ok so you house rule like we do with the pistol whip (and I think they will eventually do this in the final version too).
Fact of the matter is it is still "magic'd" for range not for melee, so the magic doesn't apply to this purpose. Much like the bow +1, even if you had the feat catch off guard, it still wouldn't be a magical improvised weapon.I know this has been covered in these forums before.(specifically about shields)
You could magic the pepper box twice once for the ranged barrels and once for the butt of the weapon making it both a magical melee weapon and a magical ranged weapon.
Still, the gunsligner got a +2 pepperbox, but the fighter or the barbarian didnt have magic swords? how did this come to be?
Edit: you also had an entire party debuffed to -6, so I think A) you should have run for the hills and B) the Lich would have focused all his attacks on the gunslinger once he realized how deadly he was in the particular incident.
Couldn't the barbarian and the fighter still have grappled the lich? I dont have the stats how strong is the lich? If his Ac is high was his cmd?
We have a 10th level party in Serpents skull, it's kinda funny cus your party sounds like ours (not everyone has a magic weapon) we do have a bag full of +1 maces and spears and such no one wants, so if it came down to something like that, there would still be magic weapons to slay this critter or that one if It came down to a knock down drag out...
Sorry everyone has +2 or above weapons. Trick is lich is dr magic bludgeon. Party tends to play heroic stupid. Lich is a cyclops so cmd is well above parties abilities.
Kinda silly on magic weapon not being magical in every sense
yknow thats difficult to read that stat block, I guess its the difference between and/or.
although reading the paragraphs after, it states the lich knows alot of weapons cant hurt him.what did you have in your party again?
A fighter, a barbarian, a gunslinger and a witch? (some where you mentioned fighter but i think you meant barbarian, because it looks like you had a rogue, a gunsligner, a witch a barbarian and a zen archer.
Btw protection from arrows (missiles) doesnt negate the gunslinger, as it gives 10/magic DR. As his gun is magic, he would still be hitting vord.
also once 100 points of damage is prevented, the protection spell ends.
A simple magic weapon spell would solve this if cast on a club. but I see that's not on the witch spell list.
A regular monk at your level would have tooled the lich too.
this particular monster just gave your particular party a hard time.
But the lich couldnt have negated the gunslingers bullets with protection from missles as it only works vs non magical missles.
Our current gunslinger is whipping out 1d8+11 three times a round (twf)
so thats an average of 45 damage a round (and he crits usually once a combat).
so after 4 (or less) combat rounds Vord would have been dead.
the gunslinger carries 6 pistols double barreled, shoot and drop. so he would have had enough preloaded ammo for exactly 4 combat rounds.
Our gunslinger doesnt have magic pistols, he has magic ammo tho.
And more than 12 shots so, dead lich for out group.
Your gunslinger doesnt shoot as fast with only one pistol, but still, he seems to be doing pretty low damage.
He should get deadly aim, it will help him alot.
but anyway, after 9 rounds of the gunslinger nailing the lich, with an average of 15 damage per shot, two shots thats 30 damage a round, 3 rounds before reload, there is 90 damage, reload, factor in the barb getting past dr some here and there, this should have still been a dead lich in 9 rounds?
Of course there is channel negative energy, which he could use to heal himself and damage the gunslinger and barbarian in the same action (who should be close enough due to their combat styles) which i didnt see you use....
Sounds like some needs to get that barbarian a +1 mace as a back up weapon!!
This by the way is why I liked full bab classes that dont take a focus on a particular type of weapon, they get to use the best one that comes around or is best for specific circumstances.
I will still never forget "torch" the +1 flaming club. Sounds like your party could have used it!
|
|
oops on protection from missiles... that's what I get for playing since first edition. Some spells I tend to treat as they use to be and dont bother looking up. I guess I owe the players "raise dead" or 2 for free
player list Zen Archer, Witch, Barbarian, Rogue and Gunslinger
The barbarian basically is stubborn and isnt willing to pick up an alternate weapon.
Zen Archer had no magic weapon other than bow.
Rogue was paralyzed majority of fight
Yes players could have made other decisions but they didnt. Lich had roughly 200 hpp and stoneskin of 120. Lich also could have made multiple decisions but that is also the past.
WOW on lack of damage for gunslinger we feel including the gunslinger player he is way over the top on damage combined with touch ac. He overall outclasses everyone else on damage throughout entire adventure not every single fight but the overall. At present if rules stay the same we will either outlaw gunslinger from our games, or make it hit flatfooted instead of touch ac(ie bullet to fast and small to dodge, but we are afraid of sneak attack with rogues in that realm) We dont mind non gunslingers with guns because it is a very expensive toy that when you fail it breaks and you wont be using it again till you spend a few days fixing it.
This is only one groups opinion so nobody get all freaked out.... It makes us sad to because our group loves the whole scifi fantasy clockwork gun mix.
oops on protection from missiles... that's what I get for playing since first edition. Some spells I tend to treat as they use to be and dont bother looking up. I guess I owe the players "raise dead" or 2 for free
player list Zen Archer, Witch, Barbarian, Rogue and Gunslinger
The barbarian basically is stubborn and isnt willing to pick up an alternate weapon.
Zen Archer had no magic weapon other than bow.
Rogue was paralyzed majority of fight
Yes players could have made other decisions but they didnt. Lich had roughly 200 hpp and stoneskin of 120. Lich also could have made multiple decisions but that is also the past.
WOW on lack of damage for gunslinger we feel including the gunslinger player he is way over the top on damage combined with touch ac. He overall outclasses everyone else on damage throughout entire adventure not every single fight but the overall. At present if rules stay the same we will either outlaw gunslinger from our games, or make it hit flatfooted instead of touch ac(ie bullet to fast and small to dodge, but we are afraid of sneak attack with rogues in that realm) We dont mind non gunslingers with guns because it is a very expensive toy that when you fail it breaks and you wont be using it again till you spend a few days fixing it.
This is only one groups opinion so nobody get all freaked out.... It makes us sad to because our group loves the whole scifi fantasy clockwork gun mix.
Eh well there is alot of stuff with good touch ac out there, not to mention the running out of ammo thing. Also the gunslinger will start to languish at higher levels, but i would definitely have the bosses that last long enough to figure out what is going, to target the gunslinger more.
Jus cuz the gunslinger looks tough right now, don't rule him out, he does have his moments to shine.
I do the same thing with spells by the way (how they used to be in 1st ed) but as far as i remember, the spell is 1e was "protection from normal missles" so magic arrows and the like still got through.
I am playing a Gunslinger in a game right now and I was nowhere near as effective as our Inquisitor was. I got charged and knocked prone after the first shot by a Giant Scorpion. That sucker then commenced to wail on my fella somethin' awful. I only survived due to the intervention of the bard, ranger and the use of the flare round. I ended up prone and or grappled 4 of 5 rounds. I was able to only fire every round due to rapid reload and paper cartridges.
In the mean time, the ranger and inquisitor were whacking the things for mid 20 point hits each time they struck. With vital strike and sneak attack from the levels of rogue(sniper) I took I only hit for 28 once. I know the GS can run the potential of a one shot, but that shot is one in a million. Against a fast threat like the Giant Scorpion, he had his work cut out staying viable with a one round musket and a lot of special equipment. I love the class, but it will likely fall into the same place as monks when it comes to actual fan base. Most of core classes can just get the job done quicker and with less money/feat commitment.
also id like to point out that you allowed hom to reload in one round. the quick reload feat does not allow you to make an attack and reload the ENTIRE weapon as a move action. that gun is essentially 6 guns and takes the time 6 guns do to reload. even with the quick reload feat, he aint doin that in a round he also attacked in.
Also attacking with a ranged weapon in mellee, especially a fragile medieval gun, should provoke an attack of opportunity as you are using a makeshift weapon, and i think should have a good chance of forcing the firearm to get damaged. you cannot think of the guns of that era as the guns of the modern era, they werent built for mellee.
im not sure i agree. the pepper box is 6 barrels. even with the alchemical cartridge and rapid reload, ITS 6 BARRELLS! you cant do anything 6 times even free actions in a given turn. you still have to load each one as a free action. how many free actions do you get in a turn?
also was that thought through? cause the fastest soldiers in the revolutionary and civil wars could reload a rifle for ONE SHOT in like 30 seconds. that would be 5 rounds!
i understand this is not a reenactment of real life, but the rules represent just that, to an extent. just giving perspective...
that being said the rules on free actions is that the GM can limit the number of uses of them to if he deems nessecery. in the case of reloading a pepperbox, i would DEFINATELY require more than a single free action to reload it even with the feat.
that being said, my argument is moot, as i just realized that the gunslinger should be able to reload at least 2 of the barrels as a free action, therefor negating the need for a reload turn, as he would be able to constantly reload what he had just fired...
guess i just dont like the idea of super fast firearms in the fantasy genre. i thought itd be cool, but theyre too modern in useablity. it should take a full action to reload, a standard with rapid reload, and a move with that and alchemical thing to move...
the attacks per round are a description of your chance at creating damage in a round, which yes 5 swings in 6 seconds is a tough one to see, but its a hell of alot more feasable than reloadng a muzzleloading rifle in the blink af an eye.
and i dont think that saying reality has no bearing here, it still does... to some extent.
not at all. a crosbow is a sting you pull back on a slide that "locks." i can see that. i like the rule. a gun has powder, a bullet, and a primer. it must be set upright, the poweder poured in, the bullet pushed in, then the whole thing must be compressed with a ramrod. this is something that takes a couple minutes to those who know what theyre doing, 30 seconds to the fastest.
i will concede that that would make guns a one and done weapon for a given combat, so that cannot be. but i will have the time to reload be a full round action, with rapid reload, a standard and with the alchemic a move. thats as nice as ill be, and its a stretch.
the other thing i will do with guns, is make them a simple weapon to fire, but require the exotic proficiency to reload.
i dont want guns to inundate my game, its medieval fantasy. there are aspects of the rennaisance in there, but the gun is already superior to the bow, it doesnt need to be able to be changed as fast as a semi auto clip to make it relevent.
you dont listen well and you are either lying or have no idea what you are talking about. there is no such thing as a drop in the barrell and fire pouch. you HAVE to ram that in. that is FACT.
a cross bow i will concede to because i dont look to 20th level as a guide to realism. i look at 1-5 for it. after that things get a bit out of hand. so once as a free action or even twice is seeable as VERY proficient. im not saying i am very good at either. just saying loading a crossbow is WAAAAAAAAAY faster than loading a black powder gun of any kind.
and yes you are right they dont fit my world well.
|
|
Wow resurrection of an old thread,
1. the only thing we allowed was for the gunslinger to use his gun as light melee weapon. That in no way overbalanced the character.
2. every medieval gun was built to be a melee weapon, that without question is a historical fact. Most were built to be even tougher than melee weapons because they were controlling an explosion.
3. We have been playing the kingmaker campaign from the beginning. And even the gunslinger is tired of the gunslingers abilities. Starting the fifth book we are going to try the gunslinger with rogue BAB. We think this will make it more reasonable on it's excessive accuracy. Wizard with touch attack spell no where near as nasty as a fighter with touch attacks.
I own 2 pepperbox's, or percussion revolvers as I know them to be called. they are neat and I am afraid to shoot them after a misfire. They are more solid than my sledgehammer, if they werent worth so much I would make a video of me hammering nails with them. (pretty sure those little scratches will reduce their value)
as to the drop in round, umm its a fantasy world, we have bottles that when they break open they burst into flames can you show me where this historically exists? Otherwise why not accept this idea of drop in rounds.
Regardless the book will be out soon and we will see what the players choose to do when we start the next campaign.
|
What functionality did he give the Gunslinger? From what I understand for the cost of 1 grit point you pistol whip and essentially get to trip the opponent, so unless he was regularly fighting with it then he wasn't really increasing the power to a significant amount.
As for the reloading, that is not very clear. Paper Cartridge plus Rapid Reload makes reloading a free action, can you do this 6 times? 12 if using two guns? On the other hand, you would have no need to empty the gun before reloading unless you are getting 6 main hand attacks in a round, so no reason not to reload a couple rounds each round to keep maxed.
However, while the Paper Cartridge and Rapid Reload suggests no limit to reloading, the metal cartridge specifically states it allows you to reload the entire capacity of your gun as a move action (free action with Rapid Reload) whereas the Paper Cartridge does not state that.
Then again, under Metal Cartridge it states the reload specifically about Advanced Guns yet one assumes it works with the Pepperbox too?
Is it a case that the only difference between metal and paper cartridges is that the paper increases misfire chance whereas the Metal does not, or is the Paper really not intended to reload the max capacity of a gun?