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My gnome oracle died.
New character will be a dwarf and a battle cleric. We really need a tank-ish and healing powers.
Im thinking about taking one fighter level to gain access to heavy armor and martial weapons. Power attack and weapon focus seams like good feats to take. Is selective channeling worth it?
25 point buy.
STR 16, DEX 13, CON 14, INT 10, WIS 15, CHA 13.
Also i really like the idea of holding a hammer. If possible two handed.
Selective channeling is a must imo. I have made more battle clerics than any other class in dnd. I reccomend 1 or even 2 levels of fighter, take 1 at lvl2 and the other around lvl12/13. I'd drop the INT down to 8, and the dex down a little as well, although both are personal preferences. Whatever you do, don't let anyone tell you a battle cleric is sub-par, they are fantastic, pick the right buffs and you'll be crushing like a fighter while being able to heal yourself, acting as a self-sufficient tank if you will. If your set on the 13 dex think about 3 fighter lvls to gain access to the first tier of armor training.
EDIT: the Maul(1d10, 19-20/x3) or the Lucerne Hammer(dont remember specifics, but it has reach)
A favored "tanking" tactic of mine is to use reach weapons, with combat expertise, and stand still, etc. this allows you to crowd control effectively
Selective channeling is a must imo. I have made more battle clerics than any other class in dnd. I reccomend 1 or even 2 levels of fighter, take 1 at lvl2 and the other around lvl12/13. I'd drop the INT down to 8, and the dex down a little as well, although both are personal preferences. Whatever you do, don't let anyone tell you a battle cleric is sub-par, they are fantastic, pick the right buffs and you'll be crushing like a fighter while being able to heal yourself, acting as a self-sufficient tank if you will. If your set on the 13 dex think about 3 fighter lvls to gain access to the first tier of armor training.
EDIT: the Maul(1d10, 19-20/x3) or the Lucerne Hammer(dont remember specifics, but it has reach)
A favored "tanking" tactic of mine is to use reach weapons, with combat expertise, and stand still, etc. this allows you to crowd control effectively
Thinking about dropping INT but then i need to spare a skillpoint from Heal or Know. rel. DEX 13 is for the feat dodge. Perhaps it is overrated?
Where can i find the maul? Havent seen it in any book. We only use Pathfinder material. Core, APG, etc.
Freedom and travel domains
Stone-plate...
Stone-plate...
Im not a druid. What so good about Stone-plate? Except that it is cool as hell.
Selective channeling is a must imo. I have made more battle clerics than any other class in dnd. I reccomend 1 or even 2 levels of fighter, take 1 at lvl2 and the other around lvl12/13. I'd drop the INT down to 8, and the dex down a little as well, although both are personal preferences. Whatever you do, don't let anyone tell you a battle cleric is sub-par, they are fantastic, pick the right buffs and you'll be crushing like a fighter while being able to heal yourself, acting as a self-sufficient tank if you will. If your set on the 13 dex think about 3 fighter lvls to gain access to the first tier of armor training.
EDIT: the Maul(1d10, 19-20/x3) or the Lucerne Hammer(dont remember specifics, but it has reach)
A favored "tanking" tactic of mine is to use reach weapons, with combat expertise, and stand still, etc. this allows you to crowd control effectively
Why on earth are you taking selective channeling as a battle cleric? To spend an action healing yourself that could have been spent outright murdering the dude in front of you? Instead, I'd take Toughness (more hp), or combat casting (get spells off in melee if you have to), or Improved Initiative. Save the channeling until the bad guy's too dead to get the benefit. That being said karl has nearly everything else right though I'm leery about dropping caster levels just to get proficiencies and a feat. I wouldn't bother wiht more than one level of fighter.
The only other thing I'd do is drop a point out of Cha and Dex unless you want to qualify for feats and cram them into Int. You won't regret the extra skill points and you can always decide to boost one up later for feats if that's what you want.
As for Domains Abadar really doesn't get much for battle clerics. :(
However if you insist get Travel and Defense. Travel makes you mobile and Defense gives you two very good AC boosting spells on top of a built in save bonus. You'll be hard to nail down and equally hard to hurt. Good qualities for a tank.
What do you think of taking Power attack, weapon focus and combat casting as the first three feats?
After that Toughness at level 5. Dodge level 7.
Why Abadar? I want travel domain for the mobility and i dont find Cayden or Desna to be better choices.
What do you think of taking Power attack, weapon focus and combat casting as the first three feats?
After that Toughness at level 5. Dodge level 7.
I think Furious Focus and Power Attack at first level might work better than Weapon Focus. This way, when your BAB hits +4, you still get to Power Attack for free. With Weapon Focus, you would be 1 down.
Also, you might want to consider Alignment or Elemental Channel to qualify for Holy Vindicator instead of fighter levels. You wouldn't get Heavy Armor Proficiency until 8th level, but it would be fun.
Why on earth are you taking selective channeling as a battle cleric? To spend an action healing yourself that could have been spent outright murdering the dude in front of you?
I assumed he was channeling negative since Abadar, (and assumably his dwarf) are neutral. Selective Channeling is a must for a negative channeler. Negative channeling is also a decent choice for a battle cleric.
I assumed he was channeling negative since Abadar, (and assumably his dwarf) are neutral. Selective Channeling is a must for a negative channeler. Negative channeling is also a decent choice for a battle cleric.
Why on earth are you taking selective channeling as a battle cleric? To spend an action healing yourself that could have been spent outright murdering the dude in front of you?
No positive. Thought it would be handy if i could heal my friends when i am in combat. If anyone f~%# up.
No positive. Thought it would be handy if i could heal my friends when i am in combat. If anyone f!&$ up.I assumed he was channeling negative since Abadar, (and assumably his dwarf) are neutral. Selective Channeling is a must for a negative channeler. Negative channeling is also a decent choice for a battle cleric.
Why on earth are you taking selective channeling as a battle cleric? To spend an action healing yourself that could have been spent outright murdering the dude in front of you?
Well in this case we have to ask what the rest of your group is?
Depending on the answer will determine whether the feats worth it or not.
Ah ok.
Sorcerer - dragon bloodline
Ranger - archery
Fighter - two handed sword, lots of dmg low ac
Rogue/wizard - charm, enchantment
My gnome oracle died.
New character will be a dwarf and a battle cleric. We really need a tank-ish and healing powers.
Im thinking about taking one fighter level to gain access to heavy armor and martial weapons. Power attack and weapon focus seams like good feats to take. Is selective channeling worth it?25 point buy.
STR 16, DEX 13, CON 14, INT 10, WIS 15, CHA 13.
Also i really like the idea of holding a hammer. If possible two handed.
I'd go with the following, for a follower of Abadar:
Dwarf Fighter 1/Cleric (Defense, Travel) 7
14 Str, 14 Dex, 14 Con (+2 race), 11 Int, 16 Wis (+2 race), 13 Cha (-2 race)
Traits- Eyes and Ears of the City, Magical Knack (Cleric)
Ftr 1- Power Attack, Rapid Reload (Light Crossbow)
Clr 1
Clr 2- Selective Channel
Clr 3- +1 Cha
Clr 4- Furious Focus
Clr 5
Clr 6- Reach Spell
Clr 7- +1 Wis
Armor/Weapons- Breastplate or Full Plate, Buckler, Light Crossbow (deity's favored weapon), Dwarven Waraxe (can be used one-handed or two-handed, depending on whether AC or damage is more important)*
*- Warhammer works also, but it's 1d8/x3 instead of 1d10/x3
Ignore Heavy Armor Prof. If you want it, burn a feat on it. But you are already moving slowly.
Consider just sticking with breastplate and using a shield. 2 pts of Dex, you max out your AC, are 1 AC behind heavy armor prof, and you move faster. You can then make your armor mithral and get +6 to Dex to max out AC again, as an elective.
You aren't going to have a high AC and tank unless you have a shield. That's cold, hard truth. Let the fighter handle the dmg, if you want to be a combat cleric use spells to increase everyone's combat ability, or do the Divine Power/Righteous Might thing at later levels.
Try to save your healing for out of combat, and use wands. The Ranger can help, since he can use them too. In combat healing should only be for dire emergencies. Concentrate on teamwork and leveraging your high AC to help flank, if nothing else. Draw AoO's so the fighter doesn't. Mindset is as important as feats, here.
==Aelryinth
Ignore Heavy Armor Prof. If you want it, burn a feat on it. But you are already moving slowly.
1. Dwarfs move 20 feet. They move 20 feet naked and they move 20 feet wearing heavy armor. Its a racial trait.
2. Thats what travel domain is for. Gives me +10 movement.
Taking a shield is possible and a good idea iv thought of. But then i need to pick the quick draw feat. Or else it would be hard for me to cast divine spells in combat. I also think it is a bad idea to make a cleric with high DEX. It will just make him more MAD. STR, CON and WIS is the abilities i find important.
Also you get the longstrider spell jacking movement up to 40 most of the day even in full or stone plate.....
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Dwarf Cleric__ / Fighter1 (Fighter2 is an option after cleric level 12)
Str 17 (all level up points here)
Dex 12
Con 16
Int 10
Wis 16
Cha 8
Domain: Travil,Nobility(Leadership Subdomain)
Feets: Quick Draw, Shield Focus, Saving Shield, Ironhide, Craft Arms and Armor, Power Attack, Improved Bull Rush, Improved Over Run, Charage Throw, (At higher levels) Bull Rush Strike, Improved Critical (Warhammer),
Other recomended feets: Exta Channel, Channel Smite
Skills: Spell Craft, Knowlage Nobility
Fighting with: Tower Shield, Heavy Armor, and Warhammer,
Combat focus on group buffing, posion for flanking, and damage. in that order.
Dwarf favord class cleric. +1/2 to domain power usable 3/Day+Wis mod. Taking this for Inspiring Command ability. Granting you a force multiplying ability thats not a spell. Meny times per day.
Calagnar has a build I'd probably use. I'd skip the fighter levels though. Seriously you're a freaking dwarf, use a freaking dorfaxe. Medium armor is just fine since you'll be tossing out AC bonuses anyway.
Also ask your GM about leadership. In fact I still wouldn't take it because your low charisma might be a hindrance. If you still want it work with your gm to consider alternatives.
Extra channel would be good wiht a low charisma, channel smite not as much unless you want to holy vindicate.
As to healing, you've got one guy who will likely need it if ever. The rest are casters or ranged dudes. They should be endeavoring to stay out of combat. Beyond that most them will get near dead the moment they get hit anyway so healing by that point will be next to pointless.
You have some fairly good strikers, so I say play as Aelryinth has already suggested. Run around taking hits for the squishy guys while being mr. fighters best friend. It's unfortunate that Abadar's kind of a douchebag since you could benefit quite a bit from the Glory or Good Domains.
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Calagnar has a build I'd probably use. I'd skip the fighter levels though. Seriously you're a freaking dwarf, use a freaking dorfaxe. Medium armor is just fine since you'll be tossing out AC bonuses anyway.
Also ask your GM about leadership. In fact I still wouldn't take it because your low charisma might be a hindrance. If you still want it work with your gm to consider alternatives.
Extra channel would be good wiht a low charisma, channel smite not as much unless you want to holy vindicate.
As to healing, you've got one guy who will likely need it if ever. The rest are casters or ranged dudes. They should be endeavoring to stay out of combat. Beyond that most them will get near dead the moment they get hit anyway so healing by that point will be next to pointless.
You have some fairly good strikers, so I say play as Aelryinth has already suggested. Run around taking hits for the squishy guys while being mr. fighters best friend. It's unfortunate that Abadar's kind of a douchebag since you could benefit quite a bit from the Glory or Good Domains.
Listen to Tark and Calg. Any battle cleric build with a strength under 16 is just an accident waiting to happen. You really can't afford a high charisma on a battle cleric (ESPECIALLY a dwarf) so just leave channeling to those clerics who don't like being good at anything.
I'd have suggested to skip the fighter levels to with just about any other deity, but dwarven waraxe becomes a martial proficiency so that's not an option like Tark suggests. You're going to need one level unless you plan to use a crossbow all the time. This will allow you to either use the dwarven waraxe (better than the warhammer) or a greataxe.
I'm also assuming, given your first post, that you're going to use a one-handed weapon with a shield. Furious focus was suggested above but it can only be used with a two-handed weapon.
Keep in mind, though, that with a two-handed, low AC fighter in your group the enemies will have less of a reason to attack your higher AC until he's down, so don't expect to walk in and be the party anchor all of a sudden. I'd suggest, seeing as how with this party composition you're going to be forced to heal constantly with a tankish cleric build, that you just grab a greataxe and help the fighter drop them before they drop you. That way you can heal outside of combat and not worry about wasting precious actions inside of combat. Always keep in mind the golden rule of combat; the best defense is a good offense.
I'm showing up a bit late to the discussion, so pardon if my comments are totally sideways, but have you considered an Inquisitor of Abadar? They have more of the "kick in the door and make thy enemies pay" flair that might suit your needs better. The reason I suggest an Inq is that they have some interesting mojo that they can rely on in combat (judgements, teamwork feat swapping, applying bane as swift actions!, their own spell lists, etc) that makes them distinct from either a fighter or a cleric but comparable to both as the situation calls for it(in the battle cleric/imbued fighter kind of way).
I like the concept of a battle Cleric but the rules fall short in d20 (imo). I've attempted to play two, and I've GM'ed campaigns for three or four in the last ten years and after that level 8-10 tipping point they end up being the back-up stooge for the mainline melee player character (Stop attacking and buff me Regie! Stop attacking and Heal me Regie!). Not to mention the magic item distribution discussions...*shudders*. Besides, if you add levels of Fighter then it isn't really a battle cleric is it :P?
Someday I will get my chance to play an Inquisitor of Gorum...and Golarion will bleed at his/her passing.
Sorry to sideline the cleric discussion mates. Carry on!
I like the concept of a battle Cleric but the rules fall short in d20 (imo). I've attempted to play two, and I've GM'ed campaigns for three or four in the last ten years and after that level 8-10 tipping point they end up being the back-up stooge for the mainline melee player character (Stop attacking and buff me Regie! Stop attacking and Heal me Regie!). Not to mention the magic item distribution discussions...*shudders*. Besides, if you add levels of Fighter then it isn't really a battle cleric is it :P?
Funny because it's after the 8-10 tipping point that they start to blossom. In 3.5 the cleric can walk around with a Persistent Divine Power and Righteous might up at all times making the party's melee characters look like godless heathen midgets by comparison.
There isn't as much discrepency these days but a battle cleric is still a full casting armored beast and domain powers actually do a lot to make him even stronger.
I like Abadar, but I think this may make for a more fun Battle Cleric:
@ 1st level: Str 16 Dex 12 Con 16 Int 8 Wis 16 Cha 12
Dwarf cleric of Gorum (Destruction, War), Great Sword, Toughness (1), Power Attack (3), Furious Focus (5)
Haven't looked over it in a while, but isn't the Holy Vindicator catered towards battle clerics? It has full BAB and a few useful self-buffing powers, assuming that you have the HP to toss around.
No divine metamagic in PF. No stacking Divine Favor and Divine Power. Lousy spell list. The cleric got the short end of the stick in PF.
Inquisitor is the better class. Both bane and the judgements stack with divine favor (or power) bonuses, both can be applied with swift actions (important in a game without persistent spell or cheap ways of quickening). It just works, the cleric ... not so much.
Erm no? Not better, just different. Inquisitors don't get two domains or domain spells for one. Nor do they get 9th level spells or things like Righteous might early on. They also don't ahve the absolutely massive spell list that clerics have. Lastly they can't create undead or summon planar allies to the cause.
And so what if you can't cast Divine Power and Favor together? You can still stack it with Bless and even be a benefit to everyone as a whole as opposed to yourself.
Inquisitors are more equivalent to a very selfish bard.
But that's a digression.
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Haven't looked over it in a while, but isn't the Holy Vindicator catered towards battle clerics? It has full BAB and a few useful self-buffing powers, assuming that you have the HP to toss around.
It's more geared towards the paladin because of the BAB prerequisite but it can work well for weak battle clerics also (I say weak because sword and board battle clerics are weak in MOST party makeups).
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If you want to be a healing cleric as well as a battle cleric, dwarf isn't really a good choice. Healing in PF relies heavily on channeling, and that Charisma penalty looms pretty large. (Holy vidicator is a pretty good PrC for battle clerics too, but it also relies a lot on channeling - same problem.) If you want to stick with dwarf, drop the idea of being a strong healer and be ready to use a lot of wands; if you want to heal as well as tank, switch to a different race (human, half-elf or half-orc would all be good choices, as would gnome if you could stand another go-'round), and then seriously consider heading for holy vidicator.
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Just based the character off what the OP wanted. HV is not that good. Get over it you lose 3 caster levels. The reason for taking one level of fighter. If your going to carry a shield as a divine caster my as well use a tower shield. Clerics healed partys befor channel positive energy in PF. So I see this as bouns healing not primary healing.
And if I was making the character. With out restrictions from the OP.
Dwarf Oracle of battle
Str 17
Dex 10
Con 16
Int 9
Wis 10
Cha 14
Revelation: skill at arms
Feet: Exta Revelation:Weapon Master (Dwarven Axe, Great Axe, Warhammer, or Earth Braker)
Starting spells.
Cure Light Wounds, Bless, Magic Weapon(Trade this out for Divine Favor at level 4)
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Just based the character off what the OP wanted. HV is not that good. Get over it you lose 3 caster levels. The reason for taking one level of fighter. If your going to carry a shield as a divine caster my as well use a tower shield. Clerics healed partys befor channel positive energy in PF. So I see this as bouns healing not primary healing.
I was really directing the comment at the OP. But I completely disagree with channeling as bonus healing. A fighting cleric has to use spell slots to buff their combat capability, which means they have fewer slots to devote to cure spells. The ability to heal without using spells slots (or gold, via wands) is pretty incredible; nothing else comes close. (I've played in a Pathfinder group where the only healer was a druid; it got kinda rough at times.)
And HV isn't that good for a pure cleric (it's actually fairly weak, as you suggest). On the other hand, it's pretty solid for a cleric/fighter hybrid that wants to keep their healing at full strength - and you'll note I only recommended it in conjunction with a suggestion to better balance the two concepts. Full BAB lessens the need for self-buffs some, and the defensive buffs are pretty hefty. YMMV, of course.
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Just based the character off what the OP wanted. HV is not that good. Get over it you lose 3 caster levels. The reason for taking one level of fighter. If your going to carry a shield as a divine caster my as well use a tower shield. Clerics healed partys befor channel positive energy in PF. So I see this as bouns healing not primary healing.I was really directing the comment at the OP. But I completely disagree with channeling as bonus healing. A fighting cleric has to use spell slots to buff their combat capability, which means they have fewer slots to devote to cure spells. The ability to heal without using spells slots (or gold, via wands) is pretty incredible; nothing else comes close. (I've played in a Pathfinder group where the only healer was a druid; it got kinda rough at times.)
And HV isn't that good for a pure cleric (it's actually fairly weak, as you suggest). On the other hand, it's pretty solid for a cleric/fighter hybrid that wants to keep their healing at full strength - and you'll note I only recommended it in conjunction with a suggestion to better balance the two concepts. Full BAB lessens the need for self-buffs some, and the defensive buffs are pretty hefty. YMMV, of course.
No.
Taking a shield is possible and a good idea iv thought of. But then i need to pick the quick draw feat.
Use a buckler shield. Same AC benefit as a light shield (+1 AC; plus any enhancement bonus, perhaps from magic vestment), can use a bow or crossbow without penalty, can hold an item with that hand (like your weapon while casting, after using a free action* to switch hands), can attack with a weapon two-handed at -1 on attack rolls; very efficient in action economy. You can't bash with it, but that's not much of a sacrifice for most clerics.
*- Pathfinder rules allow you to switch weapons between hands as a free action.
Erm no? Not better, just different.It works better for someone like the OP who obviously wants to play a melee/caster hybrid.
An inquisitor needs to cast 1 standard action buff and use 2 swift action class abilities to do really good damage with a weapon.
A cleric needs 2 standard action buffs, one of which only kicks in at level 9 ... and even then his damage output just won't be that good, especially with a shield. From 6-8 and/or if he doesn't have time to prepare for a fight he will look very very substandard compared to a real martial character if he tries to use a weapon instead of cast spells.
On top of that, a good portion of a battle cleric's daily mojo at high level is spent on buffs that bring him up to par with a typical melee character. That isn't so bad, as lots of classes have heavy prep to do at high level. However, it really doesn't support the theory that a Battle Cleric is a "full casting" class and a melee fighter. They have to choose either or every time they sit down to pray for spells.
That argument aside, you then have a heavily buff dependant character that flat out requires those buffs to compete (never mind that the other melee characters are sporting many of the same buffs which make them even cooler). All you need to take that apart is Dispel Magic or any other antimagic/magic supression effect that becomes more and more readily available from foes and encounter design at high level. I can tell you from personal experience that even one event like that can ruin a play session for the "player," and at the end of the day when all the numbers are set aside that is what is really the most important...having fun.
The concept is cool as heck, and it is possible for a battle Cleric to be made effictively on a cleric chasis (the crunching numbers, buff applications and such mentioned so far are solid...the battle cleric CAN work). I'd just still recommend building that character concept as an Inquisitor to make sure it is both cool and fun. Besides, it's not like the player has to run around saying "Hi my name is Edgar the Inquisitor." He could still, for roleplaying purposes, be a member of the clergy of any church he wanted.
He just gets to roll two extra damage dice as he decides to have a human bane earthbreaker this round, and assume the most appropriate team work feat for the occaision...and he can cast a spell next round...all the while judging the crap out of his god's enemies.