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So, our brave heroes found a couple of unholy and keen weapons. We (including our GM) are all wondering whether it is possible to remove the unholy enchantment so we can wield them. Would enchanting the weapons with holiness cancel out the unholy enchantment? If so, would the weapons be holy and keen, or just keen?
Or would the weapons now be both holy and unholy, and thus somehow both good- and evil-aligned? Or would it simply not work, as the weapons are already evil-aligned (just like Align Weapon can't align weapons that are already aligned)?
Thanks for your insights.
I think by raw it cannot be removed. but seems to me you could easily turn something like that into a quest.
Not by PRPG rules.
The 3.5 Unearthed Arcana (I think it was) had rules for redeeming evil items, though.
So, our brave heroes found a couple of unholy and keen weapons. We (including our GM) are all wondering whether it is possible to remove the unholy enchantment so we can wield them. Would enchanting the weapons with holiness cancel out the unholy enchantment? If so, would the weapons be holy and keen, or just keen?
Or would the weapons now be both holy and unholy, and thus somehow both good- and evil-aligned? Or would it simply not work, as the weapons are already evil-aligned (just like Align Weapon can't align weapons that are already aligned)?
Thanks for your insights.
Unholy is just an enhancement like all the other enhancements. In short you can't remove it short of DM Fiat or a class ability that specifically says you can.
The only one I know that can is the Oracle, but it destroys the entire weapon.
PRD:Undo Artifice (Sp): At 11th-level, you gain the ability to reduce a nonliving item to its component parts, essentially erasing the hand of artifice and rendering the item into a pile of raw natural materials. This effect acts as the spell polymorph any object, working on both magical and non-magical nonliving objects. The duration is always permanent. Unlike polymorph any object, it cannot be used to mimic the effects of other spells. Items subject to this effect receive a Fortitude saving throw to negate the effect. Magic items receive a circumstance bonus on this save equal to +1 for every 5,000 gp in the item’s value. You may use undo artifice a number of times per day equal to your Charisma modifier.
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Plus, why would you remove it? It won't affect the PC who's holding it. It's just an enchantment.
Unholy: An unholy weapon is imbued with unholy power. This power makes the weapon evil-aligned and thus bypasses the corresponding damage reduction. It deals an extra 2d6 points of damage against all creatures of good alignment. It bestows one permanent negative level on any good creature attempting to wield it. The negative level remains as long as the weapon is in hand and disappears when the weapon is no longer wielded. This negative level cannot be overcome in any way (including restoration spells) while the weapon is wielded.
Plus, why would you remove it? It won't affect the PC who's holding it. It's just an enchantment.
1. Maybe you, as a possibly good or at least anti-evil character doesn't want to spread evil magic around and see the redeeming of evil items as a good thing to do. AKA roleplay reasons.
2. It DOES affect a good character holding it, bestowing a negative level. Unholy weapons are Evil with big E.EDIT: Goat-ninjaed by 27 seconds. FML. :( ;D
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Yes.
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Unholy: An unholy weapon is imbued with unholy power. This power makes the weapon evil-aligned and thus bypasses the corresponding damage reduction. It deals an extra 2d6 points of damage against all creatures of good alignment. It bestows one permanent negative level on any good creature attempting to wield it. The negative level remains as long as the weapon is in hand and disappears when the weapon is no longer wielded. This negative level cannot be overcome in any way (including restoration spells) while the weapon is wielded.
Again, you improve my knowledge..thanks :D
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Let's see:
Remove Curse is not an option. Even if you would see it as a curse, it just doesn't do what you want it to do.
Mage's Disjunction is temporarily and removes all enchantments. It does work however.
Wish is probably your best bet.
Sometimes the players come up with the best adventuring ideas. I'd suggest to turn it into a quest. You might want to write some background for the weapon. Who knows? Maybe this weapon was a holy weapon that has been corrupted. By removing this corruption the players can restore the weapon to it's former glory.
Contributor, RPG Superstar 2010 Top 8
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There may not be a rule for it, but I'd definitely allow it in my game. After all, one of the deities in the Pathfinder setting is trying to do something pretty similar.
Shelyn's weapon, Whisperer of Souls, is a hideously evil soul-stealing glaive that's trying to turn itself into an evil god. Shelyn (NG goddess of love, beauty, and art) has been by performing good acts to redeem the weapon and release the souls it's stolen.
I'd have the PCs do something similar, maybe even in service to Shelyn's church. They'd need to go on a quest to perform some righteous deed, and they'd need to wield the evil weapons while they do it (taking the negative level). At the end of it, they get the chance to purify the weapons, switching the unholy property over to holy.
In Book of Exalted Deeds (3.5) there are rules for it, involving prayer and some sacrifice of xp.
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I get that the level can't be healed while holding the weapon, but can't a character use UMD to con the item? Then the neg. level is never bestowed in the first place.
I never thought about this issue. Seems to me you could have 'holy' added to it as a way to neutralize the unholy. I'm not sure what happens when you do that, but I'd rule both effects disappear.
While that works for holy/unholy, it would be nice for there to be something that can remove any special ability added to an item. Maybe a simple system whereby you are required to go through the same system that was used to add the ability. So you would need craft arms/armor, the prerequisites, the gp, and the time to remove it. That would work, but it seems rather expensive to remove an effect from an item. Cheap to just get a new weapon.
So, our brave heroes found a couple of unholy and keen weapons.
If you're in a magic-rich environment (big city) you could just sell it and buy something better.
A +1 Unholy Keen weapon (+4 equivalent) is worth 32,000 gp, sell it for half (16,000) and buy two +2 weapons, or get close to a +3.
Many campaigns aren't so open with vendors and evil items, so YMMV. A better use may be to have a short quest to transform the item or destroy it and happen to get a reward better suited for the party.
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I get that the level can't be healed while holding the weapon, but can't a character use UMD to con the item? Then the neg. level is never bestowed in the first place.
I use this in my games. That's what UMD is for, to use something that you normally couldn't use. Emulate an alignment - DC 30.
If I were to come across this situation as a DM, I'd allow the players to remove the enchantment by casting the opposite enchantment on it. (Holy/Unholy, Fiery/Icy, etc) Since there are spells that do the same thing like Hallow/Unhallow, and Haste/Slow. That would negate the enchantment, but not add the new one.
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Yes. Unfortunately, removing unholiness from a magic weapon is not easy. The Recondite Order is rumored to have perfected the technique with a specially consecrated font full of holy water collected from the summits of seven sacred mountains on Celestia. Unfortunately, the Prince in Scarlet laid waste to the Order's citadel. Of course, the Prince couldn't actually enter the font's chamber, so instead he left his Dread Reavers to guard the site. Since the Dread Reavers are undead, they're likely still prowling the citadel's ruins. :)
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UMD DC 30 once per hour allows you to avoid the affect of unholy weapon on a good character.
Selling an unholy weapon gives rise to adventure ideas when the local paladin takes exception to the adventurers engaging in the arms market in a way that affects him. Not a happy guy.
The RAW treatment is that holy and unholy can both be on a weapon. A user who is neutral has no bad effect when using it. It's good vs. both good and evil critters. They don't dismiss or overlap. Adventures to destroy magic items (or in this case to remove a nasty enhancement), have a storied history in fantasy. J.R.R. wrote a little piece along these lines, for example. :)
From a world building perspective, when a complication comes up, game the complication for a fuller story. A magical anvil..an anti-magical anvil..a society of anti-magic types..a magical place..a sage with obscure knowledge..you took what feat? These are all options on how to address this.
If it isn't your thing and you just want to be done with it, to each their own.
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I'll just point out that there is nothing in the rules to prevent you from having a holy & unholy weapon, or even a +1 holy, unholy, axiomatic, anarchic weapon that can only be wielded by a true neutral character without penalty. Either sell it, use UMD, or make it a side quest.
UMD can produce some interesting situations.
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There may not be a rule for it, but I'd definitely allow it in my game. After all, one of the deities in the Pathfinder setting is trying to do something pretty similar.
That should give you a clue about how difficult it would be. ;)
But I would probably come up with a cost formula that would allow it, with a sufficient quest to go with it, of course. Since it's a +2 enhancement it should probably cost the same as a +2 to get rid of it. (In other words, calculate market price, subtract 2 from the bonus, the calculate market price again. The difference is what it would cost.)
Given that removing the unholy attribute also removes the negative level, it seems like a reasonable price to be paid.
Sounds like the perfect opportunity for the GM to get creative. A quest or a specialized ceremony would seem most fitting.
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Sounds like the perfect opportunity for the GM to get creative. A quest or a specialized ceremony would seem most fitting.
Thanks, everyone, for your feedback! BTW, our campaign takes place in the Earthdawn setting, with slightly modified Pathfinder rules. I think what I'm going to suggest to our GM is to have the weapons be once-holy weapons that were Horror-touched (for those who are familiar with the setting). One of our PC's is also Horror-touched at the moment.
Sounds like the perfect opportunity for the GM to get creative. A quest or a specialized ceremony would seem most fitting.
That's certainly one solution.
By RAW, there is no way to remove or change a magic weapon ability (without destrying the item entirely). However, here are two ways for good characters to deal with evil/unholy items while not being penalized in WBL terms:
1) A church of a good-aligned deity offers a "bounty" (half market value) for evil/unholy weapons that are turned in to be destroyed. This allows the PCs to "sell" the weapons without having to worry about them being used or corrupting others.
2) Allow the weapon to be "reforged" using Craft Arms and Armor, with the weapon's sale price counting as all or part of the creation cost. Depending on the GM/campaign, this may require special materials or equipment and/or can only be done in a specific location/by a specific individual.
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I know, old thread. But came up in an unrelated search of mine, and there is present solution to this topic within the pathfinder rules:
Champions of Purity adds the "Redeemed" as a magic weapon property. Basically transforms an unholy weapon into a slightly better holy weapon at the cost of a +1 bonus (on top of the unholy bonus cost, so it's a +3 cost option if the weapon doesn't start unholy).
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And finally, if a weapon is unholy there is nothing stopping you from just adding a few holes of your own. Problem solved.
I've been investing into this sort of thing (ie: holy and unholy). In under stand that with holy and unholy that the weapon would be both good/evil evil, but I wouldn't cancel each other out, but it would make it as helpful as a good-aligned using it as it would an evil-aligned now. Pretty much beneficial to neutral characters.
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In Book of Exalted Deeds (3.5) there are rules for it, involving prayer and some sacrifice of xp.
Yeah, I know. Necroed thread. Still, I wanted to chime in on this.
BoED lets you redeem an evil weapon for 1/25 price as # XP lost, and time in days = 1/1000 price. Since PF does not have XP loss, it used a common house rule of 1 XP is worth 5 GP. That makes redeeming cost 1/5 price and 1/1000 price in days. This just is to remove an item's evil.
For dealing with Unholy, it has a different ritual. It replaces it with Holy, at the following rate: [8 hour days, just like crafting]
+3 effective bonus: 3200 gp and 18 days
+4 effective bonus: 4800 gp and 32 days
+5 effective bonus: 6400 gp and 50 days
+6 effective bonus: 8000 gp and 72 days
+7 effective bonus: 9600 gp and 98 days
+8 effective bonus: 11200 gp and 128 days
+9 effective bonus: 12800 gp and 162 days
+10 effective bonus: 14400 gp and 200 days
You also need to be good, and need the spell Holy Spite.
/cevah
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A possibility unavailable when the thread was first posted is salvaging the item and using the resulting "magic powder" to forge a new weapon without the unholy property.