I think older players who have had years and years of adventuring are more apt to play in a style that is restricted.
As an older player, 20+ years, I disagree. I hated arbitrary restrictions then, and I still hate them now.
Because if you play enough, you find virtually the same characters get built over and over again. Really? another +3 dwarven thrower?
The same characters getting built over and over again has nothing to do with the wonky magic item economy. Rather, it has everything to do with players who refuse to challenge themselves and play outside the box.
Most older players do no play in groups with "planned" builds. which is almost required in a MMORPG. If you made a mistake and put something in the wrong slot in an online game, often the character is ruined, behind, suboptimal.
Please stop trying to speak for an entire community of players. Speak for yourself. Planning how to build a character has been around about as long as the Unearthed Arcana. The game features numbers that can be put together a whole bunch of ways. Players have always tried to maximize the good and minimize the bad since the beginning.
Older players are going to prefer a more organic feel to playing. This requires restriction on availability to all magic items in the game.
No, it doesn't. Just because everything is available, the player who wants a more "organic" feel can elect to use whatever weapons comes his way, whenever. A character is only as specialized as the player desires.
In the old days (i saw mention of this on another thread) the draw back to running around with a bastard sword is, you were not likely to find a magic one (it was like 5% or something) as most often treasure was rolled randomly.
And that's fine, it practically assures that the character who specializes in that weapon is going to have to commission one when he can afford it. That should serve to make the weapon all the more precious and special.
there is nothing wrong with selling the +2 spear, but often you will find parties that didn't have the magic blunt or magic piercing weapon to over come said monsters DR, and got tooled. Specializing in great sword didnt really help out the fighter now did it.
The PF Fighter, even with the Fighter Weapon Training, will still get good value of WF and WS. They're just icing on the cake. FWT means that the character can have various back-up weapons that he can use quite well.
What you then run into, is, instead of making a world to adventure in, you make a world tailored to the PCs. How convenient that bad guy just happened to have a +3 great sword, or the store just had one on the shelf at the time WBL told me I should have one.
What a novel concept; a world tailored to the PCs, and by extension, the players themselves. Why shouldn't the world be tailored to those who spend hundred of hours playing the game? You talk as though this is a bad thing.
Who Sold an +3 Greatsword? the guy wit the +5 great sword? Who never seems to be around to kick your butt or get to the dragon hoard first, because then his CR would be to high for your Zelda to defeat.
This is where you just stop thinking about the magic item economy. You can't reconcile it. If a +3 Greatsword is available for purchase, and it would be a very small chance that it would, you just go with it. If you have the money, and at 12th level you might, then take it.
That's exactly why people stop playing with magi-marts and customizable magic items. It kills the fun after you do it the first few times.
No, people are opposed to Magi-marts because Gygax told 'em it was wrong. :P
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But when you've played 3 paladins all with holy avengers, how special is it anymore?
Well, that depends on if I still have different kinds of paladins to play, doesn't it? If I play the same paladin all three times, maybe it won't be special anymore. Or maybe it will be special the fourth time, just like it was the first three times. Or maybe the first three were completely different characters, and the fourth will be just as different.
Well, that depends on if I still have different kinds of paladins to play, doesn't it? If I play the same paladin all three times, maybe it won't be special anymore. Or maybe it will be special the fourth time, just like it was the first three times. Or maybe the first three were completely different characters, and the fourth will be just as different.
But when you've played 3 paladins all with holy avengers, how special is it anymore?
We had a Paly in our last AP (Second Darkness), and a Holy Avenger just wasn't gonna be in the cards. Guy was TWF'er, daggers as I recall. I had a Paly a few years ago, never even sniffed at a Holy Avenger. I did score a cool blade that could yield double-damage in non-lethal attacks though. That was different. :)
I am currently playing a 12th lvl Human Barbarian with a +2 Greatsword(adamantine/keen/furious/intelligent) I originally recieved it at 3rd level as a plain ol' Adamantine Greatsword that I found in a crypt. I worked with my DM and communicated that I was going to make the Greatsword part of my story, and told him I would prefer to simply have the weapon stay with me rather than replace it every few levels. The DM decided to have fun with it and has created small(20 min) story arcs to have the sword grow with me.
That has definitally made the game for me. The sword has become a part of my PC(since I got it) and I can't imagine my Barbarian without it.
I do need a better name for it though as it is currently still "Greatsword of Kvoric" after the man whose crypt I got it from/me in a former life. I might have to ask it for it's name as it has just recently woken up!
Is there any reason a Holy Avenger couldn't be a dagger?
Yeah, fair enough, you could do that. 'Course you'd want to do it twice, right? I just don't the player was that interested in HA.
I am currently playing a 12th lvl Human Barbarian with a +2 Greatsword(adamantine/keen/furious/intelligent) I originally recieved it at 3rd level as a plain ol' Adamantine Greatsword that I found in a crypt. I worked with my DM and communicated that I was going to make the Greatsword part of my story, and told him I would prefer to simply have the weapon stay with me rather than replace it every few levels. The DM decided to have fun with it and has created small(20 min) story arcs to have the sword grow with me.
That has definitally made the game for me. The sword has become a part of my PC(since I got it) and I can't imagine my Barbarian without it.
I do need a better name for it though as it is currently still "Greatsword of Kvoric" after the man whose crypt I got it from/me in a former life. I might have to ask it for it's name as it has just recently woken up!
^This is very cool. DM/player communication is such a cool thing to see in operation.
My Ranger has a Large Thylacine companion, because I took the time to talk to the DM about spending it's Feats to make it so.
IMO any meele combatant that's worth his/her salt has named his/her weapon.
On that note, my primary ranger (Hawkson :0 18th Level) has Shadows Bane: +3 Exit Wound Hunting Distance Throwing Axe (it took out a Shadow Dragons eye "Plot Stick") & Dragon's Heart: Mithral +4 Hunting Keen Dragon Fiercebane Great Scimitar (due to the Shadow Dragon he has Dragons at +8). Both stated non-magic & he as up-graded them at the expense of other "good" weapons. Just for concept.
I might have to ask it for it's name as it has just recently woken up!As a Bleach fan, this statement amused me. :)
Interestingly enough it is a black greatsword...
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I think my players don't care.
Morrowfall (artifact)is "the bird"
"Felheart" (unique item) is just "my bow"
"Whisperlash" (+1 defending mithral rapier) - I think the player/character forgot the name - and its defending ability.
Which is really weird because they are great roleplayers. I've learned it doesn't pay to spend the time on making unique items - particularly if they aren't exactly what the player wants.
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Is there any reason a Holy Avenger couldn't be a dagger?Yeah, fair enough, you could do that. 'Course you'd want to do it twice, right? I just don't the player was that interested in HA.
Used the d20srd text since I can't access the the PRD at work, so it might be a little off. Also not sure how it interacts with magic enhancements overcoming DR.
I think magic items with unique names are more memorable when they are infrequent. Yes, you remember Sting and the One Ring. On the other hand, those are the only magic items Bilbo carried.
So if you want each magic item to have a name and unique history, there need to be very, very few of them. Which is a valid way to play, but isn't the way D&D or Pathfinder is designed.
On the other hand, Earthdawn has a very awesome way it handles magic items. Each does have a name and a history. The characters have to learns pieces of that history in order to bind the full power of the item to them. You don't need nearly as many items, because those items can grow in strength as you do.
Is there any reason a Holy Avenger couldn't be a dagger?
Well back in the day, it seemed under the description, that a holy avenger was a +2 longsword only... of course back then a "flaming" weapon was a longsword called a flame tounge and it was +4 vs birds for some reason?
I'm torn, I always enjoyed my +1, +2 vs. beezwax, +3 vs. streaking nude wizards over 70 weapons, But I really enjoy the "modern" flaming shocking, frost choices too.
but no, I guess you could have a holy avenger sling if you wanted, after all it's a "package" or template isnt it?
It seems to reason the holy avenger would be in the gods favored weapon.
I think I have more fun when I, as a player, name my own weapons. I had an inquisitor of Abadar that carried a falchion that he named the Exchequer, which was "only" a +1 sword, but the character had the sword made through his father's merchant contacts. Brand new weapon, but it kind of had its own history.
My current character, a fighter, carries an heirloom weapon that is a scythe. His father was a farmer that helped some mercenaries fend off some foes, and was offered a position with them. When he couldn't learn to use anything else worth a damn, his mercenary companions had a masterwork scythe made for him.
When he passed it down to his son (my character), they named it the Family Business, a reference both to his father's profession as a farmer and the fact that the "new" family business is in mercenary work/adventuring.
And that's not even a magical weapon yet.
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Someone finally mentioned Earthdawn and forgets the most important part!
Just learning about items only unlocks a fraction of their power. Often times you needed to perform quests to gain the benefits of items, and even then you needed to study the item in order to discover what needs to be done for powers to be unlocked.
I forgot the name of this particular weapon, but it was a bow that to be upgraded had to be given to an *enemy* to use, and only became stronger if they returned it to you.
After reading this thread and thinking on it, here are some of my takeaways for my games as a player/DM:
1) I like the concept of naming weapons and applying the name(s) to whatever weapons fit the concept.
2) Giving a name for each plus of enhancement would be cool for me. For example:
+1 = Magic
+2 = Exceptional
+3 = Remarkable
+4 = Superior
+5 = Legendary
So you could have a magic keen longsword or a remarkable flaming burst dagger of goblin bane
3) Only give detail to special items. A sentence will do. What defines special? That's up to the DM.
Thank you for all the great ideas!
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IMO any meele combatant that's worth his/her salt has named his/her weapon.
Indeed, my barbarian has at least four weapon's named. He has held on to all of them, even though only Ebondawn (Adamantine Flaming Burst Great Sword +2, forged by the parties cleric of lathander, which glows a warm glows like the dawn sun at all times) is remotely useful at level 17.
Some where along the lines he had a magic item craft like efficient quiver, but for holding weapons. At the time we joked it was Casey Jones' golf bag.
IMO any meele combatant that's worth his/her salt has named his/her weapon.Indeed, my barbarian has at least four weapon's named. He has held on to all of them, even though only Ebondawn (Adamantine Flaming Burst Great Sword +2, forged by the parties cleric of lathander, which glows a warm glows like the dawn sun at all times) is remotely useful at level 17.
Some where along the lines he had a magic item craft like efficient quiver, but for holding weapons. At the time we joked it was Casey Jones' golf bag.
ha! we had a gnome barbarian in Legacy of fire that happened to always get some odd weapon of bane something or else an axe of bane this, a spear of bane that and a club of bane the other thing, we started calling it the case jones golf club collection too!
As an older player, 20+ years, I disagree. I hated arbitrary restrictions then, and I still hate them now.
All restrictions in a game are arbitrary. :)
As an older player, 20+ years, I disagree. I hated arbitrary restrictions then, and I still hate them now.All restrictions in a game are arbitrary. :)
And some are more arbitrary than others.
Take the 2e Cavalier for example; Hu-mons could take that Kit, but Elves couldn't? I mean, WTF? Just because someone decided, way back in 1e, that Elves didn't specialize in strapping on a horse and charging balls-out, that means it must be right? That's just dumb.
Now, here's an example of a reasonable arbitrary ruling. BAB progression is based on 5. It could have been any number, but the designers just felt like 5 was a good fit. It doesn't really matter.
Back on track now...
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Yeah but along with Shifty I can never recall the time where the GM had a guy siddle up to me, open a trench coat, revealing a scabbard and say in a hoarse whisper "Wanna buy a sword +1? Owned by an elderly paladin and only used on holy days..."Because as an adventurer, you're likely trying to get rid of it quickly (unless you want to sit around for YEARS waiting for someone with the thousands of gold AND the interest in THAT SPECIFIC magic item) so you practically give it away in order to get paid AT ALL.Riddle me this,
In most campaigns the GM lets you sell the 'sword/mcguffin' for 50% of its value, max. That's all 'that guy down the inn' will give you for it.
What I wanna know is how come my characters are never 'that guy from the inn' able to buy cheap magic items at a mere 50% of retail?
I LOVE THIS! Why the hell haven't I thought of this before?
probably cause I don't think like a criminal very well. This is AWESOME for a thieves guild tie-in
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As an older player, 20+ years, I disagree. I hated arbitrary restrictions then, and I still hate them now.All restrictions in a game are arbitrary. :)And some are more arbitrary than others.
Take the 2e Cavalier for example; Hu-mons could take that Kit, but Elves couldn't? I mean, WTF? Just because someone decided, way back in 1e, that Elves didn't specialize in strapping on a horse and charging balls-out, that means it must be right? That's just dumb.
no it isn't... first you would have to find an elf with balls and that is an epic quest that makes the Fellowship of the Ring look like kindergarten playtime.
:)
okay back to the good stuff
lol
Is there any reason a Holy Avenger couldn't be a dagger?Yeah, fair enough, you could do that. 'Course you'd want to do it twice, right? I just don't the player was that interested in HA.
I am currently playing a 12th lvl Human Barbarian with a +2 Greatsword(adamantine/keen/furious/intelligent) I originally recieved it at 3rd level as a plain ol' Adamantine Greatsword that I found in a crypt. I worked with my DM and communicated that I was going to make the Greatsword part of my story, and told him I would prefer to simply have the weapon stay with me rather than replace it every few levels. The DM decided to have fun with it and has created small(20 min) story arcs to have the sword grow with me.
That has definitally made the game for me. The sword has become a part of my PC(since I got it) and I can't imagine my Barbarian without it.
I do need a better name for it though as it is currently still "Greatsword of Kvoric" after the man whose crypt I got it from/me in a former life. I might have to ask it for it's name as it has just recently woken up!
^This is very cool. DM/player communication is such a cool thing to see in operation.
My Ranger has a Large Thylacine companion, because I took the time to talk to the DM about spending it's Feats to make it so.
+1 regarding the opinion of Player/GM interaction. Of course, I'm damned lucky, same GM in several gaming systems over the course of the last 15 years, and he happens to be my best friend.
I think I have more fun when I, as a player, name my own weapons. I had an inquisitor of Abadar that carried a falchion that he named the Exchequer, which was "only" a +1 sword, but the character had the sword made through his father's merchant contacts. Brand new weapon, but it kind of had its own history.
My current character, a fighter, carries an heirloom weapon that is a scythe. His father was a farmer that helped some mercenaries fend off some foes, and was offered a position with them. When he couldn't learn to use anything else worth a damn, his mercenary companions had a masterwork scythe made for him.
When he passed it down to his son (my character), they named it the Family Business, a reference both to his father's profession as a farmer and the fact that the "new" family business is in mercenary work/adventuring.
And that's not even a magical weapon yet.
Awesome back story. The name reminds me of a friend's character in a HERO pulp-era campaign, who always carried around a length of lead pipe that he referred to as "The Difference".
Actually, that's not true. The names, however, could use some serious work! +3 Flaming burst long sword? Nah. How about "Emberthorn"? Or A +1 Frost scimitar? No thanks. Frostclaw, however? Sign me up!
What names have you given otherwise generic magic arms and armor to make them exciting, and what flavor abilities did you give them to make them unique? A +1 longsword named Shimmer is identical to any other +1 longsword, unless every time you swing it, it trails fairy dust. And dusk thorn is just a +2 shortsword, unless it looks as if it's trying to drink all the light that touches it.
Do you give fancy names to spanners and screwdrivers, that lie around your house?
Exactly. Magical items are treated as common tools, because since 3.0 they ARE common tools for PCs. No amount of fluff will make players treat swords +2 like something important, as long as everyone realizes that in a few sessions the game will mandate them to upgrade to a sword +3.
So, either rework the entire paradigm of magic items, or don't try to bandage a hole through the heart, by pestering players with meaningless details no one will care about.