The beauty of shapeshifting.
It looks legal to me, however;
he has to use tremor sense to "see" the enemy which is only an issue if the enemy is not touching the ground. If the enemy levitates, fly's, climbs into a tree, or (arguably) stands on a chair then the druid is effectively blinded to his location until he comes out of the dirt.
The attacking druid is still succeptable to attacks of opportunity as he moves into the threatned area, even if he's coming out of the ground to do so.
I'm assuming the druid isn't coming totally out of the ground when attacking. However, when attacking he has to be at least partially out of the ground. So the ground is considered Cover (at best). Which means he isn't invunerable. Check the cover rules to see how to deal with this.
Hope that helps.
RPG Superstar 2011 Top 32
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I have a player who is playing a druid and wants to use wild shape and turn into an earth elemental then glide under the gound and attack from underneath the enemy. Is this even legal.
I then heard he wants to use spring attack with it too. Spring from under ground and attack the enemy and then move back under ground.
Has anyone come across this yet? If so how do you deal with it.
I think its total chesse and i dont like it at all.
some advice please
Thanks guys
AFAIK, this is completly legal. It is a little cheesy, yes. I'd rule it works the same way that it would for an incorporeal creature, the druid has cover when attacking from out of the ground, but the enemies can ready actions to attack him.
I'll also point out that elemental shape does not confer tremorsense, so if the druid is completely underground he is blind. A moving enemy will be very hard to fight using this trick. Earth elementals are pretty slow.
I'd rule that once he has emerged from burrowing (to deliver the spring attack) he must end his movement on land.
With burrow his movement is only 20 feet, so he's much slower than your average spring attacker (barbarians, monks, mobile fighters with the fleet feat -- all of which are moving at 40+ feet). For this reason, I think I'd rule that his opponent would lose its Dex to it's AC for that round (since it could not predict where the attack would come from). That is unless they possess tremorsense or some other such ability.
Anyways, it does seem like he is trying to find a way to exploit the rules. Though, it may be that he's honestly interested in pursuing an interesting (and refreshing) use of his wild shape ability. If this is the case, I'd urge you to work with him towards that end.
That's my 2 cp.
Happy gaming.
I'll also point out that elemental shape does not confer tremorsense, so if the druid is completely underground he is blind. A moving enemy will be very hard to fight using this trick. Earth elementals are pretty slow.
In my post I wasn't sure about this so do whatever the spell says.
I'll also point out that elemental shape does not confer tremorsense, so if the druid is completely underground he is blind. A moving enemy will be very hard to fight using this trick.
I didn't think about that; surely complicates things.
I have a player who is playing a druid and wants to use wild shape and turn into an earth elemental then glide under the gound and attack from underneath the enemy. Is this even legal.
I then heard he wants to use spring attack with it too. Spring from under ground and attack the enemy and then move back under ground.
Has anyone come across this yet? If so how do you deal with it.
I think its total chesse and i dont like it at all.
some advice please
Thanks guys
It's perfectly legal, except for the fact he can't see while underground. You should look at the rules for incorporeal creatures attacking out from a wall to get some idea of how to handle it.
The main problem (not sure if this designed intentionally or not), is that while a druid can turn into an earth elemental, and use glide.
They do not get the Tremorscene ability. This means that they are blind.
Great ability to have to run away.
A lot harder ability to us, to attack someone from under the ground, when you do not know were they are, if they moved, if they set traps, etc.
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It is one of the natural ability of druid, and is no different than turning into an air elemental, to gain fly.
I would suggest letting the player be ability to do it. This is one of the reason for playing a druid after all.
PS = Just have the Druid Character put on a Blindfold and Ear Plug when he goes undergound. Player has to ignore what anyone say while undergound as information they do not have.
Just make sure that it works both ways.
Surprise = Sometime druid gets the drop, Sometimes the bad guys get the drop on the druid, since he did not know what he was popping up into. (depending on what druid expected to emerge from ground, and expect to happen)
Blindness = First round, druid is attacking blind, if attacking in same round that he emerges from the earth.
Underground = Earth Druid Elemental can not be attack while underground, but Earth Druid Elemental can not attack anyone or see anyone while underground himself.
Can not communicate with rest of party.
Can not know what is going on above ground (ops, emerged while wizards fireball spell was going off.... Ouch).
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What i would not let a druid get away with = You can not attack while half or mostly submerged. I would require the druid to fully emerge from the ground to attack. (this came up once, and just say No).
I'd rule that once he has emerged from burrowing (to deliver the spring attack) he must end his movement on land.
Nothing in spring attack indicates movement types or where they must end movement. However Spring attack does say the attacker must move at least ten feet before attacking. So he'd have to use half his movement getting to the enemy and presumably the other half getting away. If the enemies simply move at least 15 feet between attacks the druid will have difficulty getting to them and get away using spring attack. That's assuming he has some way to "see" them from underground in the first place.
Nothing in spring attack indicates movement types or where they must end movement. However Spring attack does say the attacker must move at least ten feet before attacking. So he'd have to use half his movement getting to the enemy and presumably the other half getting away. If the enemies simply move at least 15 feet between attacks the druid will have difficulty getting to them and get away using spring attack. That's assuming he has some way to "see" them from underground in the first place.
Thus, the ruling, intended to reduce the level of cheese implicit in the use of earth glide when spring attacking. He can't get a lot of distance, but his enemy is rendered more susceptible to the attack.
Of course it would be a house rule and not supported by RAW, but that's part of our job as DMs. If the player accepts such a compromise, he gets to use the ability for what he intends and the cheese factor problem is solved.
EDIT: I think I would allow him to get the attack off without "seeing" his enemy, maybe with a Wis check. I don't think it would be that difficult -- he knows where his foe is if he began the turn above ground.
Nothing in spring attack indicates movement types or where they must end movement. However Spring attack does say the attacker must move at least ten feet before attacking. So he'd have to use half his movement getting to the enemy and presumably the other half getting away. If the enemies simply move at least 15 feet between attacks the druid will have difficulty getting to them and get away using spring attack. That's assuming he has some way to "see" them from underground in the first place.Thus, the ruling, intended to reduce the level of cheese implicit in the use of earth glide when spring attacking. Of course it would be a house rule and not supported by RAW, but that's part of our job as DMs. If the player accepts such a compromise, he gets to use the ability for what he intends and the cheese factor problem is solved.
That's your call as a DM, of course. However, if I had a feat that I had to take two other feats just to qualify for sumarily nerfed I'd be irritated. As myself and other have pointed out there are better ways to reduce the situational cheese without punishing the characters feat choices. I highly recommend minimizing "It works that way because I said so/it works that way because I dont want to deal with it" DM rulings. It makes the game less fun.
But again, it's your game run it however you see fit.
Edit: posted this before your edit. I think your "edit" idea is a much better compromise.
Nothing in spring attack indicates movement types or where they must end movement. However Spring attack does say the attacker must move at least ten feet before attacking. So he'd have to use half his movement getting to the enemy and presumably the other half getting away. If the enemies simply move at least 15 feet between attacks the druid will have difficulty getting to them and get away using spring attack. That's assuming he has some way to "see" them from underground in the first place.I'd rule that once he has emerged from burrowing (to deliver the spring attack) he must end his movement on land.
If enemies move their full movement they still get an attack and the druid can't reach them, much less spring attack them. Depends on how big your battlefield/dungeon corridor is.
However, if I had a feat that I had to take two other feats just to qualify for sumarily nerfed I'd be irritated.
That's where the compromise part comes in XD
The game is about having fun. I've never heard of earth glide and spring attack synergy, and it's actually pretty cool. For that reason I'd be more than willing to hear the player out. Those were just my initial thoughts on how to "balance" it.
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Just a couple of thoughts...
I don't know what level the party is playing at, but if their enemies are at least 11th or 12th level, there's the move earth spell, which can disrupt his attack (at the cost of a high level spell slot). Not worth it if they're fighting a single baddie, but it might be with a group.
Much easier, though, is a low-level Heaven's Oracle with the revelation Moonlight Bridge. Let's see him burrow through a wall of force laying across the ground. An enemy can get this with a single Oracle level (although the bridge will be smaller and weaker), and it'll last until the bad guy passes over it, so if he remains on it, it'll last through the fight. Plus, his buddies can pile on. Cheese, meet cheese.
Levitate spells? Heck, even potions of this are cheap.
If the Druid is relying on hearing Perception checks to target his opponents (presumably with stiff penalties), you could even annoy him with a Ventriloquism or even a Ghost Sound spell. I would rule that he would take a penalty to his Will save to disbelieve these spells equal to his penalty to hearing Perception. He might not even hear the sound they make, but if he does, he's going to have a much harder time determining which sounds are real from 10 feet underground.
Use Summoned Earth Elementals to keep him occupied. Make sure the caster has Augment Summoning, and have the enemy throw an additional couple of buffs on them before they send them hunting. An enemy Summoner can summon as a standard action for 1 minute per level (instead of a round per level). Summoned Earth Elementals will have tremorsense, so they can find him, even if he can't find them. Have someone cast Haste on the Earth Elemental. Now it has a 50 foot burrow speed.
Move the fight. Have an enemy Dimension Door 500 to 600 feet away, and attack the rest of the party with long-range spells. Let the party come to him. Have they left the slow-moving druid behind?
Enforce that the druid can't communicate with the rest of the party, or benefit from their tactical knowledge, unless he has some means of telepathic communication.
Make the druid player leave the room, so he can't see the tactical layout of the fight. Let him describe where he's going to emerge from the ground without seeing the tactical placement of the figs. "I'll come out 3 squares closer to Bob's dice bag. Anything there?"
Use Displacement to ensure that the druid misses his attacks about half the time. It'll affect him more than the rest of the party, since he's Spring Attacking (single attack) versus a full-attacking melee-type or archer. Mirror Image is also nice for this.
Maybe you could place certain wall spells such that if he emerges where his foe was last round, he'll be caught in the effect. Glide out of the ground right into a Blade Barrier, for example. Take advantage of the fact that he's made himself blind.
All I can think of off the top of my head.
Also...as to nerfing Spring Attack, I'm not suggesting that. Spring Attacking combined with Earthglide, however, is intended to be abusive, and therefore the combination should be stepped on. I would have the bad guys (especially the smart ones) act the same way a party of PCs would act towards this tactic. Use his resources intelligently to try to nullify the situation.
I'd especially like to hear the druid player explain how he's pulling off these attacks when blind (and practically deaf...how much of what's going on above him can he actually make out).
Finally, just how much fun is the druid's antics for the rest of the party? If it detracts from their fun, then it's definitely time to cut the cheese.
I think its total chesse and i dont like it at all.
Thanks guys
It is a special ability that druid get when in Earth Elemental form.
It has a few advantage, but also many disadvantage as listed above.
While i understand, that this is a style of play, that you might dislike.
It really is no different than, turning into an Air Elemental, and flying around a battle field while the rest of the party has yet to get fly.
Also, remember that this style of play works both ways. What ever you let your PC druid do, should also work the same way for the NPC druids.
Lastly, just a flying draw the attention of other flying creatures, and swimming creatures draw the attention of other swimming creatures. So to would a Earth Druid Elemental, draw the attention of any other burrowing creatures attention.
Other worms, moles, earth elemental type creatures, mephit's, not to mention anything that digs holes underground, like snakes, rats, fogs, turtles, foxes, badgers, etc
Other worms, moles, earth elemental type creatures, mephit's, not to mention anything that digs holes underground, like snakes, rats, fogs, turtles, foxes, badgers, etcIf he's burrowing anywhere near stately Wayne Manor, he could be in for a world of hurt... :)
LOL, ya Angry bats... 80 foot cave drops. :D
Other worms, moles, earth elemental type creatures, mephit's, not to mention anything that digs holes underground, like snakes, rats, fogs, turtles, foxes, badgers, etcIf he's burrowing anywhere near stately Wayne Manor, he could be in for a world of hurt... :)
would be hysterical if he accidentally fell into a massive cave complex.
Edit: ... Full of drow, or black pudding, or bread pudding.
Enter a dark and musty cave
Mind Flayer #1: What's that elemental doing?
Mind Flayer #2: I don't know? Maybe it's retarded.
Mind Flayer #1: *Hmmph* Maybe.
Mind Flayer #2: I'm going to try and mind control it.
Mind Flayer #1: Hahaha! You got him.
Mind Flayer #2: Yea! Hey, check this out, gonna throw him off the side of that cliff face.
Mind Flayer #1: Oooh. Nasty. Wait? Why's a human corpse down there?
Mind Flayer #2: I don't know...
Mind Flayer #1: I call dibs on his brain! *begins levitating down the cliff face*
Mind Flayer #2: No way! My kill! *begins levitating down the cliff face*
Ok this is a real hot subject you have all given me some great ideas. I will admit that it was a knee jerk reaction when i heard my player wants to use earth glide and still attack without putting himself in harms way.
1) Are we sure that the druid dosent get tremorsence??? I can see this being a massive argument on my table.
2) about moving through the ground. I was thinking about treating it like flying, that it cost double the move up and half to move down. what do you think.
3) i see the earth elemental spring attack druid the most broken. Since a monster can "see" or even "attack" a creature underground it makes them invincible. a fire, water and air elementals are still able to be attacked. (air elementals can be shot with bows so can water elementals).
levitation only allows you to float up or down thats it.
even a character with fly can be peppered full of arrows.
"Enforce that the druid can't communicate with the rest of the party, or benefit from their tactical knowledge, unless he has some means of telepathic communication."
Dont the druid gain the ability to talk in the laugage of the form they take. Aka if they take an animal form then they can only talk to animals so if they take elemental form they can only talk elemental.
1. None of the elemental body spells give you tremorsense so the druid does not get it, and you only get what the spells give you. It is not like 3.5 where you got everything a creature had.
2. Druids are strong enough without any bonuses. I would not do it.3. I think the elementals slowness makes it not broken. He moves and gets one attack when it is better to do 2 or more attacks.
Druid don't gain the ability to talk to elementals just because they are wild-shaped. Nothing about it gives another language. However, elementals can talk so there is no reason they can't talk to the party while in elemental form.
They also do not gain an ability to talk to an animal just because they takes its form.
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3) i see the earth elemental spring attack druid the most broken. Since a monster can "see" or even "attack" a creature underground it makes them invincible. a fire, water and air elementals are still able to be attacked. (air elementals can be shot with bows so can water elementals).
What is the difference with him igniting the furniture in the room and using the fire to avoid melee attacks (and maybe burn arrows before they get to him?
Whit him short-changing to a water elemental and going underwater at the end of his move, broking line of effect for several spells and becoming practically invulnerable to missile weapons?
Shapecange/Wild shape is a powerful ability but nerfing it because you don't like what it do change completely the balance of the class.
1) Are we sure that the druid dosent get tremorsence??? I can see this being a massive argument on my table.
1) Yes, we're absolutely sure because it's not explicitly listed in the Elemental Form spell whereas earth glide *is* explicitly listed. This is the #1 thing you should base all your rulings around, because it's fair, and it's the appropriate 'nerf,' and it still allows him to do what he's doing. LET HIM DO HIS TRICK, he clearly built a character to do the trick, let him do it, but here's how:
When he goes below the ground, make him announce where he intends to hop back up beforehand, so if the combat moves, he's still stuck coming back up there. His trick SHOULD work vs targets that don't move. At the same time YOU should not be cheesy when evaluating your monster's ability to figure out and react to the trick. In the end, if a monster is stationary then chances are it's already beating on another party member, and your druid's trick is really only costing the party DPR anyway.
2) about moving through the ground. I was thinking about treating it like flying, that it cost double the move up and half to move down. what do you think.
2) Don't do this. It's unnecessary, as the movement through the ground is already fairly low, and will limit the druid's trick to a degree anyway. All you really need to do is enforce his actual movement rates, and enforce the "must move X feet first" bit of spring attack. You can mitigate it by following the rules as written, and following the rules as written will not piss off your player. (or shouldn't)
3) i see the earth elemental spring attack druid the most broken. Since a monster can "see" or even "attack" a creature underground it makes them invincible. a fire, water and air elementals are still able to be attacked. (air elementals can be shot with bows so can water elementals).
If your player starts to get really smart, there's much much more broken stuff than this. Wait until he assumes air elemental form, doublecasts control winds, and sets himself in the eye of a legitimate full on tornado. So much for those arrows. And neither of these compares to Cyclops Crit Cheese. Shhhhhh. Don't tell him about that one.
I play an 11th level druid right now in a very high power game, and druids are pretty dang gross. The thing about Pathfinder though, is that all classes are that gross if you truly sit down and find the maximization saddle points. The way to fight power is with power. Have an antipaladin channel him to death while he's down in the rocks, and see how he likes not being able to have his body resurrected.
Dont the druid gain the ability to talk in the laugage of the form they take. Aka if they take an animal form then they can only talk to animals so if they take elemental form they can only talk elemental.
Nope, Earth Elementals speak Terran. They have a verbal language they can use to speak out loud to any other creatures (even players) who know how to speak Terran, which means an Earth Elemental (or druid) who knows common can speak common. HOWEVER, nobody can speak while they're earth gliding, so if he's spring attacking down into the rocks, then he can't speak at all to the rest of the party, share tactics, coordinate, or anything like that. So while your player is down in the rocks, prohibit him from speaking to the rest of the party even out of game, and require him to pop back up in the same place he chose to when he went down into the rocks, since he's cut off from communication.
The combination of all these sorts of annoyances should make the tactic only situationally useful, which is what it should be.
Don't make stuff up to nerf this, because that will anger your player, and it's not really necessary anyway. There's plenty of stuff in the core rules that limit its ability. Just use those.
I dont pull theose stunts on my players as a GM.
Try it sometime, it's great fun.
One time about a decade ago, my PCs had to board a boat at anchor in a harbor and obtain something in a chest, which an undead antagonist had left trapped and heavily guarded. The chest was in the bottom of the boat, surrounded by explosive barrels with trip wires, the boat hull itself was surrounded by spring attacking ghosts who would stay in the water, spring attacking through the hull and back, and the underside of the boat had an animated zombie giant octopus. When the PCs finally accidentally set off the explosives under duress from the ghost attacks, it created a hole in the boat, the chest dropped 300 feet down into an aboleth lair, and the boat sunk and collapsed on top of the aboleth cave.
Good times.
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"Enforce that the druid can't communicate with the rest of the party, or benefit from their tactical knowledge, unless he has some means of telepathic communication."
Dont the druid gain the ability to talk in the laugage of the form they take. Aka if they take an animal form then they can only talk to animals so if they take elemental form they can only talk elemental.
I meant this to apply to a Druid who is using Earth Glide and Spring Attack, not every time a Druid is wild shaped.
Basically, if he's under 10 feet of stone, how does he know what the rest of the party are seeing, and how do they even know exactly where he is? If he's doing any kind of tactical movement, where is he getting his information from?
I would apply the same standard to someone who was in the opposite wing of a palace from the rest of the party. His character couldn't see and experience what everyone else was, and I would ensure that the player wasn't benefiting from their knowledge of the tactical situation.
That's all I was referring to with that remark.
I am not trying to screw over my player. But the way it was put to me was that he was going to exicute testicle attack number 43.
Attack from under the ground and only need to expose his arm to hit the enemy with the slam attack combined with amulte of mighty fist and spring attack.
I dont pull theose stunts on my players as a GM. Sure i could have a wright attack them from walls and ensure that it cant be hurt and get a TPK.
but i dont.
i just need to talk to some others with a clear head. I havnt ruled anything yet.
Nothing in the rules allows him to attack while still underground. Just because the earth elemental is made of stone/earth/etc that does not mean he gets to ignore any similar material and cover it provides. All the bad guys have to do is then ready an action to attack him.
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I dont pull theose stunts on my players as a GM. Sure i could have a wright attack them from walls and ensure that it cant be hurt and get a TPK.
but i dont.
I was a player in a game where the gamemaster had us in a maze with Shadows spring attacking through the walls. It was a real challenge for the party. We survived by readying attacks and being very, very careful.
As a player, I would object to every game involving incorporeal undead spring attacking through the walls, but for one session it was a fun challenge.
The problem with your Druid player is that he intends to use this tactic constantly, which will suck for everyone. Eventually, even he will tire of your games as a result.
You have every right to screw with him, if he screws with your game. Period.
In fact, maybe you should attack him with spring attacking incorporeal undead, just so he can see what it feels like. Why should he be the only one who can take advantage of the rules?
What do your other players think about his plans? If it ruins their game, I would talk to him, and if he doesn't see reason eject him from your game.
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When he goes below the ground, make him announce where he intends to hop back up beforehand, so if the combat moves, he's still stuck coming back up there. His trick SHOULD work vs targets that don't move. At the same time YOU should not be cheesy when evaluating your monster's ability to figure out and react to the trick. In the end, if a monster is stationary then chances are it's already beating on another party member, and your druid's trick is really only costing the party DPR anyway.
+1. That sounds like a fair way to adjudicate this.
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Nothing in the rules allows him to attack while still underground. Just because the earth elemental is made of stone/earth/etc that does not mean he gets to ignore any similar material and cover it provides. All the bad guys have to do is then ready an action to attack him.
Good point. Also, note that incorporeal creatures that attack from within a wall (a fairly similar tactic) suffer from a 50% miss chance unless they exit the wall to make the attack. If an Earth Gliding Druid wants to attack opponents without exiting the ground, both the Druid and their target would have Total Concealment from one another. That's a 50% miss chance and no Attacks of Opportunity.
The problem with your Druid player is that he intends to use this tactic constantly, which will suck for everyone. Eventually, even he will tire of your games as a result.
You have every right to screw with him, if he screws with your game. Period.
Completely disagree. The earth glide spring attack trick isn't even a particularly good one if you follow all the rules. The PCs won't hate him for doing it, they'll start eventually to hate him for not getting in there and punching twice when he could double his DPR by standing there and tanking. Especially since he's got DR 5/-.
It's a cute trick that's situationally useful at best. No need to go out of the way punishing the guy for building a 3 feat character that has one cute trick that only works on immobile monsters.
The problem with your Druid player is that he intends to use this tactic constantly, which will suck for everyone. Eventually, even he will tire of your games as a result.
You have every right to screw with him, if he screws with your game. Period.
Completely disagree. The earth glide spring attack trick isn't even a particularly good one if you follow all the rules. [b]The PCs won't hate him for doing it, they'll start eventually to hate him for not getting in there and punching twice when he could double his DPR by standing there and tanking. Especially since he's got DR 5/-.[b/]
It's a cute trick that's situationally useful at best. No need to go out of the way punishing the guy for building a 3 feat character that has one cute trick that only works on immobile monsters.
+1
Oh yeah, something else to keep in mind about the trick.
So the guy hops up to make his attack on a target he thinks is there. If the target isn't there, and he can't make an attack, then he doesn't gain any benefit from the spring attack feat, since the spring attack feat requires you to make an attack for it to work. He might end up provoking AOOs from reach monsters when he dives back below, or if he travels above land trying to make it to where his target moved.