Is there any hard reason why enchanting a projectile is much less cost effective than it is to enchant a weapon?
I know the cost for a +1 on a weapon is the same as a +1 for 50 projectiles, but my point is that the +1 weapon can be used an infinite amount of times where as the 50 +1 projectiles can only be used 50 times before you have to go get new ones.
In my mind it just doesnt make any sence because, at least as far as i know, its the same enchantment being placed on 2 different things.
Heres an example that my group came up with when we first saw that projectiles lose there juice after one shot.
My fighter has a +1 icy burst spear. It is his main weapon and he uses it in close combat and sometimes throws it when he cant get up close right away.
Here is the problem... When he throws it, does its enchantments disspear?
If so, why doesnt it get used up when its used in close combat?
If not, why do arrows and other projectiles get used up when they are used normally?
Another thought just came to me. What about a +1 flaming arrow that has been used in close combat to stab somebody as a last resort because his bowstring broke? Would it lose its charge then?
Is there any hard reason why enchanting a projectile is much less cost effective than it is to enchant a weapon?
I know the cost for a +1 on a weapon is the same as a +1 for 50 projectiles, but my point is that the +1 weapon can be used an infinite amount of times where as the 50 +1 projectiles can only be used 50 times before you have to go get new ones.
In my mind it just doesnt make any sence because, at least as far as i know, its the same enchantment being placed on 2 different things.
Heres an example that my group came up with when we first saw that projectiles lose there juice after one shot.
My fighter has a +1 icy burst spear. It is his main weapon and he uses it in close combat and sometimes throws it when he cant get up close right away.
Here is the problem... When he throws it, does its enchantments disspear?
If so, why doesnt it get used up when its used in close combat?
If not, why do arrows and other projectiles get used up when they are used normally?Another thought just came to me. What about a +1 flaming arrow that has been used in close combat to stab somebody as a last resort because his bowstring broke? Would it lose its charge then?
The spear doesn't lose it's magical enhancements when thrown because it doesn't break when it hits something. Magical ammunition does.
It's much more cost effective in the long run to create sets of ammunition to deal with a specific threat (that dragon that decided to come and terrorize your nation) than it would be to add a situational magical enhancement to your main weapon.
Is there any hard reason why enchanting a projectile is much less cost effective than it is to enchant a weapon?
I know the cost for a +1 on a weapon is the same as a +1 for 50 projectiles, but my point is that the +1 weapon can be used an infinite amount of times where as the 50 +1 projectiles can only be used 50 times before you have to go get new ones.
In my mind it just doesnt make any sence because, at least as far as i know, its the same enchantment being placed on 2 different things.
There are some valid reasons to enchant ammo rather than enchanting a weapon. They had to set the price point somewhere, and either x50 or x100 seems to be the proxy for unlimited in most item creation guidelines.
Heres an example that my group came up with when we first saw that projectiles lose there juice after one shot.My fighter has a +1 icy burst spear. It is his main weapon and he uses it in close combat and sometimes throws it when he cant get up close right away.
Here is the problem... When he throws it, does its enchantments disspear?
If so, why doesnt it get used up when its used in close combat?
If not, why do arrows and other projectiles get used up when they are used normally?
You're confusing ammo with thrown weapons. Thrown weapons are not destroyed when thrown and can be enchanted normally. Ammo is destroyed half the time it misses and every time it hits, and only uses its enchantment once regardless.
Throwing a melee weapon makes it a thrown weapon, not ammo.
The spear doesn't lose it's magical enhancements when thrown because it doesn't break when it hits something. Magical ammunition does.
It's much more cost effective in the long run to create sets of ammunition to deal with a specific threat (that dragon that decided to come and terrorize your nation) than it would be to add a situational magical enhancement to your main weapon.
I understand that the projectiles breaking is how the book tells it, thats not realy my issue. My issue is that when you shoot an arrow or throw a shuriken or fire a crosbow bolt or whatever, the projectile does not break 100% of the time, so why would the magic projectile.
Especially that when an item becomes magic, if i remember correctly, its hardness increases by 10. It seems to me that they would almost never break unless you purpously shot it at a magically enchanted adamantium wall.
You're confusing ammo with thrown weapons. Thrown weapons are not destroyed when thrown and can be enchanted normally. Ammo is destroyed half the time it misses and every time it hits, and only uses its enchantment once regardless.
Throwing a melee weapon makes it a thrown weapon, not ammo.
I know the difference between thrown weapons and ammo, it still just doesnt make any sence to me because, at least to my knowledge, its still the same enchantment being placed on 2 different things that are the same at their fundamental core. Some wood and metal put together in a way to harm somebody else.
The spear doesn't lose it's magical enhancements when thrown because it doesn't break when it hits something. Magical ammunition does.
It's much more cost effective in the long run to create sets of ammunition to deal with a specific threat (that dragon that decided to come and terrorize your nation) than it would be to add a situational magical enhancement to your main weapon.
I understand that the projectiles breaking is how the book tells it, thats not realy my issue. My issue is that when you shoot an arrow or throw a shuriken or fire a crosbow bolt or whatever, the projectile does not break 100% of the time, so why would the magic projectile.
Especially that when an item becomes magic, if i remember correctly, its hardness increases by 10. It seems to me that they would almost never break unless you purpously shot it at a magically enchanted adamantium wall.
Magical ammunition should follow all the rules of normal ammunition. 100% chance to break on a hit, 50% chance to break on a miss.
I understand that the projectiles breaking is how the book tells it, thats not realy my issue. My issue is that when you shoot an arrow or throw a shuriken or fire a crosbow bolt or whatever, the projectile does not break 100% of the time, so why would the magic projectile.
Magic ammo breaks just as often as other ammo -- 50% on a miss, always on a hit.
I must not have made my point earlyer. I know how to book reads the rules on projectiles.
When i was talking about projectiles not breaking 100% of the time i was speaking simply from a logical stand point.
If you were to fire a crosbow bolt, something that is completly made of some sort of metal, at a fleshy object and you hit the target you would be able to go over to the target, pull out the bolt, reload it and fire again no problem.
All in all, I agree with you. Buying ammunition is something I have rarely (if ever) done. But to a ranged character, the weapon is the primary objective for enchanting. And as such they are neither better or worse off than a character using a melee weapon.
Magic ammunition is just a bit of extra. They can add some extra punch when needed, but are consumables just like potions or scrolls.
To answer your questions:
Here is the problem... When he throws it, does its enchantments disspear?
No, luckily for the fighter, his spear remains intact. There are a distinction between projectiles and thrown weapons. Only projectiles (which also includes shurikens) are destroyed when used.
If not, why do arrows and other projectiles get used up when they are used normally?
Well, there aren't any argument that proves that they are fundamentally different.
You could turn it around, however, and say, that if magic ammunition could be reclaimed, then they should have the same price as other weapons (especially as thrown weapons). With this price, I would think that they might even be more rare, as it gets too expensive for one single attack each combat.Other than that it would result in a lot more accounting, as you need to keep record of, which arrows are used and which arrows have been reclaimed.
Another thought just came to me. What about a +1 flaming arrow that has been used in close combat to stab somebody as a last resort because his bowstring broke? Would it lose its charge then?
It would be an improvised weapon so using it in melee would be at a -4 penalty. Other than that I wouldn't destroy it, if a character chose to use an arrow as a +1 flaming dagger with -4 to attack.
As a GM it would depend a lot on the arrow. I wouldn't allow a character to buy a slaying arrow and running around using it as a melee weapon.
@haraldklak: Thank you for the first part of your post. I didnt actually realize that if you enchanted your bow and your arrows your could, essentially, end up with a +20 weapon.
I still think its a little weird that the enchantment somehow dissapears because every projectile is as brittle as glass, but i do understand it simply from a rules stand point.
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With magic ammo becoming destroyed when it hit something, lets not forget the rules on repairing magic items:
Repairing Magic Items
Repairing a magic item requires material components equal to half the cost to create the item, and requires half the time. The make whole spell can also repair a damaged (or even a destroyed) magic items—if the caster is high enough level.
Make whole does have its bonuses. Although, then the whole caster level thing comes into play. To repair a +1 magic arrow, you need to be CL 6? I think that I would allow you to repair 50 magic arrows per spell at that point (since you craft them in bunches of 50).
I think it is because magical ammunition can potentially be very powerful. A magical arrow can't really cost the same as a magical sword, as an archer will need 5-20 arrows in a combat, and won't be able to retrieve them until after the combat is over in most instances.
That then means that arrows are a good way to get an effect that is very situational for less than it would normally cost. For the cost of a +1 dragon bane sword, you can get 10 +1 dragon bane arrows, 10 +1 evil outsider bane arrows, 10 flaming arrows (for creatures vulnerable to fire), 10 human bane arrows and 10 undead bane arrows.
A high level archer can easily shoot more than 10 arrows in a single combat, but if he reserves them for just the shoots made at full BAB, those are likely to hit almost every time, doing an extra 2d6+2 damage per shot.
The cost of those arrows is also independent of the cost of the bow. When you have a +3 keen bow of speed, the 8k for those arrows isn't going to be a noticeable expenditure. If I was playing a high level archer and ammunition didn't break when it hit, I'd probably have a quiver with 10-20 of bane arrow for every type of creature that we might meet.
Having written this, I think the reason that magical ammunition breaks is because it is a way to add magic to your attacks that (mostly) stacks with your weapon bonus. Your fighter has a +1 icy burst spear that he spent 18k gold to get. If he wants to add another +1 enhancement to it, it is going to cost 14k gold. An archer with a +1 icy burst flaming bow can spend 8k gold to effectively do the same thing for 50 shots. (More if some miss and he can recover the arrows.)
Once the spear or bow have +10 total enhancements, the spear cannot be improved (without using epic rules), while the bow could gain an additional +9 enhancements from arrows.
I still think its a little weird that the enchantment somehow dissapears because every projectile is as brittle as glass, but i do understand it simply from a rules stand point.
Flavorwise, I have always chosen to regard it as a weaker magical enchanment, due to the fact that you create a bunch at a time. While a magic sword or bow require a long time of crafting and infusing the magic, ammunition is mass-produced. In this view, it makes it more natural that the magic is expended upon use.
The limit on any weapon, even arrows, is +10. So if you have a +10 Bow and are trying to fire magic arrows, SOMETHING stops working. Because ranged weapons transfer their enchantments to their arrows (most enchantments, at least...barring exceptions like speed and distance I guess) you're often going to run into a spot at high levels where combining a powerful magic bow with magically enchanted arrows is going to set you over the +10 mark and stuff stops functioning.
Make whole does have its bonuses. Although, then the whole caster level thing comes into play. To repair a +1 magic arrow, you need to be CL 6? I think that I would allow you to repair 50 magic arrows per spell at that point (since you craft them in bunches of 50).
The spell make whole cannot be used to repair single-use magic items. It would not be able to repair enchanted ammunition.
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Make whole does have its bonuses. Although, then the whole caster level thing comes into play. To repair a +1 magic arrow, you need to be CL 6? I think that I would allow you to repair 50 magic arrows per spell at that point (since you craft them in bunches of 50).The spell make whole cannot be used to repair single-use magic items. It would not be able to repair enchanted ammunition.
you would be referring to this line:
Items with charges (such as wands) and single-use items (such as potions and scrolls) cannot be repaired in this way.
which by reading also means that staffs cannot be repaired via make whole (items with charges). but since you can fire an arrow, miss, and still have a 50% chance to recover it, it is not a 1 shot magic item, since if you where to use a scroll of ray of emfeablement, and missed, you would not get the scroll back (not even a 50% chance). And, per RAW, it states that when ammo hits a target it is "destroyed", per the PRD:
Magic Ammunition and Breakage: When a magic arrow, crossbow bolt, or sling bullet misses its target, there is a 50% chance it breaks or is otherwise rendered useless. A magic arrow, bolt, or bullet that successfully hits a target is automatically destroyed after it delivers its damage.
and since, these are not single use items, (as long as you miss, you can fire it again), and are "destroyed" the spell can effect them. As is, you will be repairing items much lower level then you can make at the time (make 50 +1 arrows at level 3, cannot repair them till level 6, when you could make +2 arrows). It is not really cost effective, but can help keep some special arrows around. Gives you the chance to keep that one arrow that saved your life by slaying the orc king. I am all for things that help the players get into the game.
Also, you will never be able to repair greater then a +3 arrow (CL 9 to create, CL 18 to repair). so it is not that greatly overpowered.
+5 is Max Enhancement bonus to Hit/Damage
+10 is Max Weapon Bonus that a weapon can have total in enhancement & Special Effect bonuse.
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+ 3 enhancement bonuse bow firing +2 magic enhancement bonus arrows = you only get the highest bonus. So the weapon only does +3 enhancement bonus from the bow.
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When you make magic ammunition, the price is listed per 50 arrows, bolts, or bullets. (page 468 = Table 15-8: Weapons, note 1 below table).
When you fire a magic ammunition, and miss the target, it has a 50% chance to break. If it does not, you can recover the magic ammunition to refire it again. If the magic ammunition, hits a creature (as defined by your DM), then it is destoryed, after doing damage. (page 468 = Magic Ammunition and Breakage ).
A magic arrow is still a single-use magic item. The effect of the enchantment can only be delivered once, after which it is expended when the arrow is destroyed.
The argument that ammunition is not a type of single-use magic item is faulty. Scrolls, for example, are cited as a specific example of a single use item. However, if a character attempts to activate a scroll, but fails for some reason, the scroll itself is not necessarily expended. Sure, that scroll can only function as intended once, but before its energies are used up it can undergo any number of "misfires", so long as no mishap occurs, only to be activated properly at another time.
A magical arrow is the same. As long as it does not break due to the 50% chance, such ammunition can undergo any number of misfires. However, it can still be utilized later on in order to activate its properties, as designed. If a scroll is a single-use item, so too is magical ammunition.
@haraldklak: Thank you for the first part of your post. I didnt actually realize that if you enchanted your bow and your arrows your could, essentially, end up with a +20 weapon.+10 is the max for any weapon.
Have there been official word on this?
Otherwise it falls into a category, where different readings produces different results. While the generel rule could apply in one view, you could also regard it as a single attack which isn't capped. Ranged weapons bestow their powers to the ammunition, not special ability per se.
Either way, you can go beyond an effective +10 bonus, if you use abilities such as seeking/speed/distance, which affects the weapon only, and not the arrow.
I don't mean to rekindle this lengthy discussion. Especially as I see it as rather unimportant, since doing the it will require serious sums of gp.
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Enhancement bonuses to weapon attack/damage do not stack. If you have a +3 bow and a +2 arrow, when you fire that arrow, it will have a +3 enhancement bonus, not +5. But, if you for instance have a +5 arrow and a flaming burst undead bane bow, and you fire it upon an undead crature, the arrow itself will have a +7 bonus to attack/damange and will do an extra 1d6 fire damage (plus a 1d10 on a crit), and an additional 2d6 because of the bane property,, because the bow bestows it's properties onto ammunition...
I know that within 3.5 there have in fact been arrows and other ammunition printed that are enchanted as a normal weapons and do NOT break on a hit. However there is a very important difference between those arrows and magical ammunition, namely that they cost exactly the same per arrow as a normal magic item does. IE if it is a +1 flaming arrow then it costs 8k gold for exactly 1 arrow.
The draw back is that you have to go and get the arrow back if you want to fire it again. So if you wanted 20+ arrows to fire while in a normal combat you would have to pay the cost of a normal magic item 20+ times, which would get prohibitively expensive. Even if you made it returning I'm not sure if you could fire it more than once per round.
So you could enchant an arrow to work like a thrown weapon, but then it has all the restrictions and limitations of a thrown weapon. Usually it's just easier to buy 100+ MW arrows and then a few specific ones (I especially like bane) for specific situations. Or go Arcane Archer.
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I know that within 3.5 there have in fact been arrows and other ammunition printed that are enchanted as a normal weapons and do NOT break on a hit. However there is a very important difference between those arrows and magical ammunition, namely that they cost exactly the same per arrow as a normal magic item does. IE if it is a +1 flaming arrow then it costs 8k gold for exactly 1 arrow.
The draw back is that you have to go and get the arrow back if you want to fire it again. So if you wanted 20+ arrows to fire while in a normal combat you would have to pay the cost of a normal magic item 20+ times, which would get prohibitively expensive. Even if you made it returning I'm not sure if you could fire it more than once per round.
So you could enchant an arrow to work like a thrown weapon, but then it has all the restrictions and limitations of a thrown weapon. Usually it's just easier to buy 100+ MW arrows and then a few specific ones (I especially like bane) for specific situations. Or go Arcane Archer.
Does that mean that you could put the returning enhancement on a specific arrow? If so, you could create one "uber arrow" that you could fire once per round. Of course, it would still probably be better to enchant the bow, but the returning arrow could be fun!
The magic item compendium had an arrow that had the returning quality. It was basically a +1 arrow that had a floating bane ability (whatever you shot was it's bane that round). So once per round you had a Bane arrow against your target, and the arrow returned to you at the end of the round (so you never ever ran out of arrow).
Does that mean that you could put the returning enhancement on a specific arrow? If so, you could create one "uber arrow" that you could fire once per round. Of course, it would still probably be better to enchant the bow, but the returning arrow could be fun!I know that within 3.5 there have in fact been arrows and other ammunition printed that are enchanted as a normal weapons and do NOT break on a hit. However there is a very important difference between those arrows and magical ammunition, namely that they cost exactly the same per arrow as a normal magic item does. IE if it is a +1 flaming arrow then it costs 8k gold for exactly 1 arrow.
The draw back is that you have to go and get the arrow back if you want to fire it again. So if you wanted 20+ arrows to fire while in a normal combat you would have to pay the cost of a normal magic item 20+ times, which would get prohibitively expensive. Even if you made it returning I'm not sure if you could fire it more than once per round.
So you could enchant an arrow to work like a thrown weapon, but then it has all the restrictions and limitations of a thrown weapon. Usually it's just easier to buy 100+ MW arrows and then a few specific ones (I especially like bane) for specific situations. Or go Arcane Archer.
I know at least one version was exactly that. Actually there was a version that violently teleported itself back out of the target dealing additional damage (1 or 2 d6) when it returned.
I know at least one version was exactly that. Actually there was a version that violently teleported itself back out of the target dealing additional damage (1 or 2 d6) when it returned.
A generous GM might allow someone to enchant a durable arrow in such a manner. By the RAW, any enchantment place on such an arrow is expended after striking a target once. However, for the full cost of enchanting a normal weapon, one might be able to argue that a permanent enchantment is acceptable.
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Is there any hard reason why enchanting a projectile is much less cost effective than it is to enchant a weapon?
Because while a magical arrow is generally only good for 1 shot, a magical sword is good for an infinite number of swings. Or to bring the comparison even closer to equivalence, why should it be exactly the same degree of difficulty to enchant a bow that essentially makes EVERY arrow that flies from it enchanted as to enchant one single arrow?