Hey Friends,
Over in the archived threads at WOTC they had a thread where the community organically built up a city. The thread, including their rules, are found here.
Would anyone here be interested in participating if we started a Build a Pathfinder City thread?
Hey Friends,
Over in the archived threads at WOTC they had a thread where the community organically built up a city. The thread, including their rules, are found here.Would anyone here be interested in participating if we started a Build a Pathfinder City thread?
hmmm, I like it. Reposting rules for ease of reading.
Each poster (that wishes to) may post a "Chronicle". An account of the activities and the going's on of the town and it's members. A "Chronicle" typically covers between a 1 month and a 3 month period but they may be longer under some circumstances. You may make anything occur that you wish but please obey the following guidelines before chronicling.3 Rules:1) No artifacts. Artifacts are unbelievably rare in the DnD universe. Most adventurers will go their entire careers without ever seeing one.
EXAMPLE-RIGHT: Bob buys a periapt of wisdom from the mage
EXAMPLE-WRONG- Bob kills the evil mage and pries the Sword of Kas from his dead hands2) Major events (zombie invasions, dragon razings, disintegration of major characters) should be proposed, rather than enacted. You would post a "proposition" at the end of your post if you wanted to do something huge with a rough outline of what you wanted to happen. The NEXT poster would then be able to decide if they thought your major even was truly warranted. Thusly for any event to occur it would have to be seconded, which would hopefully severely reduce (if not eliminate) the need to debate canon.
EXAMPLE-RIGHT: "Proposition" I think it would be interesting for Bobville to be raided by a squad of Hobgoblins
EXAMPLE-WRONG: Bobville is raided by Hobgoblins and dozens die in the ensuing melee. Also, everyone is now a Vampire.3) Any poster may preceed the body of his post with the word "STOP". This means that he has taken serious issue with some event posted in the last chronicle. Further posts should not be made directly chronicling the town's events until the issue has been decided as either canon or non-canon. Without my posting an event can be considered "decided" if three consecutive posts are made in agreement as to whether or not the event is canon excluding the original poster of the event.
EXAMPLE-RIGHT:
Poster 1: Everyone is now a Vampire
Poster 2: STOP. That is ridiculous
Poster 3: I agree. The vampire thing is stupid as hell.
Poster 4: I agree. And thats three of us so it's out. Next person can chronicle without it.EXAMPLE-WRONG:
Poster 1: Everyone is now a Vampire
Poster 2: STOP. That is Ridiculous.
Poster 1 again: VAMPIRES ROCK IT's CANON!
Poster 1 again: It's Canon!
Poster 1 again: It's Canon!
Poster 1 again: OK. Now that everyone's a Vampire........Ok! You can get posting. Those are the only rules. However there were a few things which led to difficulties in the last thread. And while they're not against the "rules" I would like to make note of them all the same. If you just plan on posting once or twice you don't need to know them. But if you plan on being a regular contributor to this thread then at least give them a glance.
On specific characters:Ok. Here's the thing. D&D is about PC's. It just is. However this thread here is not. If you plan on adding a character you made to the town then problems arise. You see if you spend a few hours making a character you have already invested effort into him. You feel some sense of ownership to him and that means you want to -control- him. The problem is that if you control an NPC he is no longer an NPC, he's a a PC. This thread is about letting as many people as possible input their ideas and use them to shape the City at large, and if you have a character that you don't want others to control then the thread stops being about Building a City and becomes about your character. If you ever make a character, item, group, or event that you consider to be specifically -yours- then it is likely that you have done something that is not conducive to the continuation of this thread.
EXAMPLE-RIGHT: I think the town needs an experienced Blacksmith. I'll make a 5th level Expert move in this season, I'll say he's a dwarf.
EXAMPLE-WRONG: I want to make a town Blacksmith. I'll make Gart Stonenose the 9th level former rogue retiree. He'll be a level 2 Fighter/Level 5 Rogue/Level 2 Dwarf Paragon* and he'll have only one eye.
*As a note multiclassing characters in general is bad. If you want to make a PC that's fine but there's nothing you can do with a Swashbuckler 2/Elven Paragon 3/Fighter 1 that you can't do with a 6th level FighterOn all characters:How many stuntmen do you know? How about professional bastketball players? How about astronauts, celebrities, CIA agents, Rap stars, or SWAT commanders? The answer is probably "not a lot" and the reason I ask is to give you an idea of the general rarity of PC's in the world. You see in the D20 system the above mentioned people are the folks you play as PC's and in the D&D system "Adventurers" are no more common. As such while it's perfectly acceptable to have people with PC classes move into the town they should not generally be more than 2% of the population. Most should be NPC classes of the appropriate type and when PC's DO come into town they should generally be of the 1st-5th level kind. An arrival of a 10th level PC into town would be like if Ludacris bought a house down the street from you. It's rare.
On major events:Above I said that "Major Events" should be proposed rather than enacted so I've complied a quick list of Major Events that can be used as guidelines. These are to be used with common sense so if your Satyr invasion only kills 4% of the population then It's still probably not that cool to just do it.
-Any event that kills 5% of the population or more (Zombie invasion)
-The introduction of an individual of equal or higher level than the highest level person in town (King arrives in town)
-The introduction of a "Character" (The Wizard Zell arives in town)
-The introduction of a group or organization (A member of the "Black Thieves Guild" arrives in town)
-Any event which irrevocably changes the way the town will function for the foreseeable future (The Wizard Zell builds an enormous Magic Academy)
-The death or permanent altering of any "Character" in town (The Wizard Zell gets disintegrated in a duel)
-The introduction of any monster or group of monsters which cannot be reasonably defeated by the town (A Black Dragon takes up residence in the nearby hills)
Sounds neat.
I agree, this sounds like it could be really fun. It would essentially be a game where everyone is a GM, with even more emphasis placed on storytelling than in a regular game. It would be a beneficial experience for any new GMs that might be interested as well; it's usually recommended to begin setting design small and build outward, and this is exactly wheat we would be doing.
I'm game. In addition to a forum post for update chronicles, those interested in doing so could compile the information on a campaign resource site, such as Obsidian Portal.
Sounds good, lets start by throwing out some ideas of who, maybe why, and a generic where of our settlement to be. Once we have a few votes for the same idea we can get started on the game proper.
Idea 1) After a major plague outbreak/natural disaster/monster attack a small group of families have moved into this area looking for a fresh start.
Idea 2) A recent campaign has devastated the local population of some evil creature. In order to prevent it's return, the King has granted this still dangerous valley to one or more of the adventurers in the hope that they can prevent the return of the monstrous tribe and tame the rest of the area.
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I agree that this is an awesome idea, and I'd be very interested in being a part of it. However, if we want to put this in Golarion, or just keep it consistent with published Pathfinder material, I think we need to change one thing and note a couple of others.
*As a note multiclassing characters in general is bad. If you want to make a PC that's fine but there's nothing you can do with a Swashbuckler 2/Elven Paragon 3/Fighter 1 that you can't do with a 6th level Fighter
This doesn't fit Pathfinder published material at all. Multiclassing (usually things like Aristocrat 2/Warrior 1 and Commoner 2/Expert 2 but multiclassing nonetheless) is very common indeed in the publisheed material. I think our setting should reflect that.
As an additional note, assuming this is a primarily human community, other races are rare in published material. the default communities are at least 80% human, ususally more like 90% unless they are very cosmopolitan. So that's worth thinking on.
Also:
How many stuntmen do you know? How about professional bastketball players? How about astronauts, celebrities, CIA agents, Rap stars, or SWAT commanders? The answer is probably "not a lot" and the reason I ask is to give you an idea of the general rarity of PC's in the world. You see in the D20 system the above mentioned people are the folks you play as PC's and in the D&D system "Adventurers" are no more common. As such while it's perfectly acceptable to have people with PC classes move into the town they should not generally be more than 2% of the population. Most should be NPC classes of the appropriate type and when PC's DO come into town they should generally be of the 1st-5th level kind. An arrival of a 10th level PC into town would be like if Ludacris bought a house down the street from you. It's rare.
I agree with this sentiment whole heartedly, though my specific numbers differ slightly. In fact, I just did a thread on the subject, that might be useful here (if only as a way of seeing how atypical the community is):
http://paizo.com/paizo/messageboards/paizoPublishing/pathfinder/pathfinderR PG/general/levelDemographics
On an unrelated note, do we want to put this in Golarion? (I kinda do.) And if so, where?
Oh, and finally: I see no reason we can't combine the two listed options. For example, say there was a village of Goblins/Orcs/Gnolls/whatever in a fertile valley that were almost completely destroyed in some natural disaster, and seeing an opportunity a small group of families moved there seeking opportunities and a fresh start.
say there was a village of Goblins/Orcs/Gnolls/whatever in a fertile valley that were almost completely destroyed in some natural disaster, and seeing an opportunity a small group of families moved there seeking opportunities and a fresh start.
I second this.
And further propose: It’s a frontier mining town located on the far-far-unincorporated outskirts of human settled lands. A recent earthquake decimated the goblin settlement and mines there, but may also have revealed hidden precious ore and gem veins. The prospect of riches is attracting enterprising merchants and families to the area regardless of the constant risk of another quake.
Does anyone know a good location in Golarion for this town?
If you set it in the Stolen Lands area of the River Kingdoms, then GMs can use it for the "Kingdom in the background" option of Kingmaker. It'll be a ready-made set of events, NPCs, and organic growth of a capital city for anyone running it to tap into.
That being said, setting it in Kingmaker could be a drawback, because there's already established NPCs and events in the area...
I actually recommend that we don't set this in Golarion. If we did, we limit those that can participate to people with an in-depth knowledge of the setting, specifically that of the region we place our community within.
Of course, that's just my opinion; should the majority want to set this in a specific locale, I will still participate. As Wandwright noted, Taldor might prove to be a particularly good fit; the nation is in decline, and though an extensive agricultural and geographical infrastructure has been established there, it has long since fallen into decay. I might also recommend Varisia; though there are several well-defined population centers in the nation, and quite a bit of material written on the area (including two APs and part of a third), it includes a lot of territory, many different terrain types, and no single unifying government. It's rich in history and conflict.
I had another thought (probably returning to the original concept) - it doesn't need to be set anywhere specific at all. Say that it's a mining town, or a farming town, or it's at the fork of two navigable rivers, and go from there. Use the default Pathfinder assumptions (low-level magic is common, all the standard races exist, etc), but don't define anything else until it comes up during the thread. There's no king or other government structure until it impacts the city, and so on.
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Less chit chat more GO GO GO!
Hey friends, I made some edits to the rules above, what do you all think? I included a note that this the city is not in any specific Golarion region, but follows the assumptions for a Golarion setting:
Each poster may post a "Chronicle". An account of the activities and the going's on of the town and its members. A "Chronicle" typically covers between a 1 month and a 3 month period but they may be longer under some circumstances. You may make anything occur that you wish but please obey the following guidelines before chronicling.
3 Rules:
1) No artifacts. Artifacts are unbelievably rare. Most adventurers will go their entire careers without ever seeing one.
EXAMPLE-RIGHT: Bob buys a periapt of wisdom from the mage
EXAMPLE-WRONG- Bob kills the evil mage and pries the Sword of Kas from his dead hands
2) Major events (zombie invasions, dragon razings, disintegration of major characters) should be proposed, rather than enacted. You would post a "proposition" at the end of your post if you wanted to do something huge with a rough outline of what you wanted to happen. The NEXT poster would then be able to decide if they thought your major even was truly warranted. Thusly for any major event to occur it would have to be seconded.
EXAMPLE: "Proposition" I think it would be interesting for Bobville to be raided by a squad of Hobgoblins
3) Any poster may start the body of his post with the word "STOP". This means that he has taken serious issue with some event posted in the last chronicle. Further posts should not be made directly chronicling the town's events until the issue has been decided on. Without my posting an event can be considered "decided" if three consecutive posts are made in agreement as to whether or not the event is canon excluding the original poster of the event.
EXAMPLE:
Poster 1: Everyone is now a Vampire
Poster 2: STOP. That is ridiculous
Poster 3: I agree. The vampire thing is stupid.
Poster 4: I agree. And that’s three of us so it's out. Next person can chronicle without it.
On specific characters:
Ok. Here's the thing. Pathfinder is about PC's. However this thread is not. If you plan on adding a character you made to the town then problems arise. You see if you spend a few hours making a character you have already invested effort into him. You feel some sense of ownership to him and that means you want to -control- him. The problem is that if you control an NPC he is no longer an NPC, he's a PC. This thread is about letting as many people as possible input their ideas and use them to shape the City at large, and if you have a character that you don't want others to control then the thread stops being about Building a City and becomes about your character. If you ever make a character, item, group, or event that you consider to be specifically -yours- then it is likely that you have done something that is not conducive to the continuation of this thread.
EXAMPLE-RIGHT: I think the town needs an experienced Blacksmith. I'll make a 5th level Expert move in this season, I'll say he's a dwarf.
EXAMPLE-WRONG: I want to make a town Blacksmith. I'll make Gart Stonenose the 9th level former rogue retiree. He'll be a level 2 Fighter/Level 5 Rogue/Level 2 Dwarf Paragon* and he'll have only one eye.
On all characters:
How many stuntmen do you know? How about professional bastketball players? How about astronauts, celebrities, CIA agents, Rap stars, or SWAT commanders? The answer is probably "not a lot" and the reason I ask is to give you an idea of the general rarity of PC's in the world. You see in the D20 system the above mentioned people are the folks you play as PC's and are no more common. As such while it's perfectly acceptable to have people with PC classes move into the town they should be limited. Most should be NPC classes of the appropriate type and when PC's DO come into town they should generally be of the 1st-5th level kind. An arrival of a 10th level PC into town would be like if Ludacris bought a house down the street from you. It's rare.
For further discussion on this topic, check out this thread here: Level Demographics
On major events:
Above I said that "Major Events" should be proposed rather than enacted so I've complied a quick list of Major Events that can be used as guidelines. These are to be used with common sense so if your Satyr invasion only kills 4% of the population then it’s still probably not that cool to just do it.
-Any event that kills 5% of the population or more (Zombie invasion)
-The introduction of an individual of equal or higher level than the highest level person in town (King arrives in town)
-The introduction of a "Character" (The Wizard Zell arives in town)
-The introduction of a group or organization (A member of the "Black Thieves Guild" arrives in town)
-Any event which irrevocably changes the way the town will function for the foreseeable future (The Wizard Zell builds an enormous Magic Academy)
-The death or permanent altering of any "Character" in town (The Wizard Zell gets disintegrated in a duel)
-The introduction of any monster or group of monsters which cannot be reasonably defeated by the town (A Black Dragon takes up residence in the nearby hills)
On location:
While this city is not being built in any specific region of Golarion, standard Pathfinder assumptions exist, e.g. Humans are the dominant race, all standard fantasy races are present, low-level magic is common, etc.
Also, I propose that our small founding group of families has hired some sort of guide to get them to the area and to serve as protection. Maybe a Lv 3 Ranger?
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Hey friends, I made some edits to the rules above, what do you all think? I included a note that this the city is not in any specific Golarion region, but follows the assumptions for a Golarion setting:
Yeah, those look and sound good to me, as does the guide. Let's make him a Half-Elf to add some diversity since most of these families are probably gonna be human.
And I suggest we do specify what critters were cleared out recently. I vote hobgoblins, as some of the most likely humanoids to have a mine.
As my own contribution, I give you Ottar Velsking (LN middle-aged human Warrior 1/Expert 4) the current patriarch of he Velsking family, an extended family of miners and smiths, and one of the primary forces behind this little expedition. He's a hard, cold, man who rules his family with an iron fist, and has a vindictive streak a mile wide, but is also scrupulously fair as well as smart and determined. He intends to be mayor of this little community, but it's possible someone more likable (like a bear with a toothache) will manage it instead.
Sounds good to me as well. And I like the idea of hobgoblins being the ones killed off by the quake.
We should probably start up a thread on the Play by Post board; this project doesn't really belong here. Anyone have any thoughts as to what to name our community?
This sounds wonderful to me. I would suggest the beginning community be called Tremens.
I suggest the beginning community be called Tremens. And for beginning settlers, I'll add a family, the Cromptons.
The Cromptons are a family of cattlemen, who are taking this opportunity to grab as much grazing lands as possible. The family is led by a tough, wily old man who likes to act like the backwater yokel most suppose him to be.
* Crag Crompton (N old human Expert 5; patriarch and herdsman);
* Eliza Crompton (NE old human Expert 4; wife of Crag and a mean gossip);
* Four adult sons on the outlook for wives.
STOP!
We've barely gotten started and we are already looking at three NPCs of level 4 or above: Crag Crompton, Eliza Crompton, and Ottar Velsking. We also have a level 3 NPC with PC levels. This is currently a beginning settlement, probably a thorp or, at the very most, a hamlet; we should be looking at 20-60 inhabitants in total, probably with an initial emphasis toward the lower end of the range. That is a lot of mid-level NPCs, considering the size of this community.
I recommend Crag Crompton be a level 2 expert, with all four of his sons level 1 experts or commoners, to be decided upon as the need arises. Eliza Crompton should be a level 2 commoner. I also recommend Ottar Velsking be a warrior 1/expert 2.
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I think that might be going too far the other way. Up to level 5 in NPC classes isn't unusual, just impressive, and we're statting the leaders of the families right now, so they're gonna be the highest level characters around. Also, considering the chancy nature of the settlement, the average level is bound to be slightly higher than an established one.
Still, you have a point. How about a compromise?
Ottar drops to Warrior 1/Expert 3
Crag drops to Expert 4
Eliza to Commoner 1/Expert 2
And the sons to 2nd level in varying NPC classes (mostly with at least a level of Commoner).
And a general statement that nobody outside family heads should be higher than level 3. Does that sound workable?
And let's call it roughly 50 or 60 people in five to seven family groups plus hangers on (our Ranger, a Priest, maybe a few others). That gives us some scope to work with while still remaining relatively small, and it's a practical size for a new community.
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I would like to submit:
Devin Wortherson NG (Cleric 2/Expert 1), head of the Worherson family and head clergy. Cleric of Sarenrae. Besides being the locals only religious leader his family also raises a produce farm, growing mostly vegetables and such. Being a Priest of Sarenrae he is often called to bless new crops and new farming grounds as well as other mundane services, child births, weddings etc.
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Sounds good to me.
To add a few more members to the Velsking clan (which is fairly large, involving several cousins, nieces, and other such individuals):
Amira Velsking (LG middle-aged human Aristocrat 1/Expert 2) is Ottar's wife, daughter of a successful merchant house, and was widely considered scandalous and mad for marrying Ottar in her younger days, but really loves the man. She's polite, charming, and everything her husband is not, often softening his attitudes with a bit of gentle persuasion.
Jaspar Velsking (N human Warrior 1/Expert 1) is a nephew of Ottar and Amira, a veteran, and a skilled smith. He has no family of his own and is a touch bitter about it, partially because of his love of children. Normally taciturn and cold, he's great with kids, and children in and out of the Velsking clan are often left with him while he works at the forge as an unofficial babysitting service.
Svanhilde Velsking (CN human Expert 1) is Ottar and Amira's youngest daughter and trouble on the hoof. An extremely beautiful young woman, she is only 17 and rebellious, seeking to do anything and everything her parents might disapprove of. She was against coming out to the middle of nowhere at first, but having realized there are significantly more men than women out here, she is beginning to see the advantages. Several young (and not-so-young) men have made advances, but so far she (or the existence of her intimidating father) have kept things from going too far. How long that will continue remains to be seen.
First post woo!
*Ahem*
I would like to add a small family that is one of the more recent arrivals in the town.
Mikael Goreden (NG Human Expert 2) the father of the Goreden family, Mikael is a veteran of an area torn apart by civil war. Tired of unending conflict, he took his family and left, settling in the first reasonable-looking town. Unfortunately his wife died on the journey, and now it's just him and his young daughter. He wants to start a bakery, that sounds... peaceful.
Alyssa Goreden (N Human Sorcerer 1) Alyssa has always been a quiet, curious child. At the age of fourteen, however, she became more than just a little weird. The magical side of the bloodline manifested in her, as it did her grandmother (maternal). Alyssa does not yet have strong control or understanding of her powers, and would rather keep it between her and her father for now (bloodline-verdant).
Maybe you should begin by stating a Settlement Stat Block ?
It would be very usefull no ? :)
P.S. : By Settlement Stat Block I mean this : D20PFSRD Settlement
These characters can gain levels as we progress, and it is actually uncommon to have NPCs greater than level 2 in a settlement that is just getting off the ground. Remember, the vast majority of NPCs never reach level 2. And with the number of people posting, and the rate at which NPCs are being added to the community, we will soon have an entire settlement above this level. Currently, in under 24 hours we're now looking at 11 NPCs at level 2 or above. That's likely over half of the initial community.
As an aside, I posted a STOP; until resolved, there's not supposed to be any further updates.
Maybe you should begin by stating a Settlement Stat Block ?
It would be very usefull no ? :)
P.S. : By Settlement Stat Block I mean this : D20PFSRD Settlement
Actually, I believe the entire point of this exercise is that the stat block will grow in an organic manner, in this case starting at the small end and progressing as posts are made. It will be defined over time,rather than initially, because the community itself will never be finalized.
I remember them being fairly useful as well. That said, I no longer have access to those rules, nor are they open content. Even if we do have them available, should they be used or not is something the originator of the project should decide. Wandwright brought this up, so he gets first crack at setting up the PbP thread, stating the final rules, and defining any initial parameters.
I think that's the biggest problem here; folks jumped the gun, and started adding things before a proper framework was in place. If nothing else, we should wait until a thread is started on the PbP board before participating.
These characters can gain levels as we progress, and it is actually uncommon to have NPCs greater than level 2 in a settlement that is just getting off the ground. Remember, the vast majority of NPCs never reach level 2. And with the number of people posting, and the rate at which NPCs are being added to the community, we will soon have an entire settlement above this level. Currently, in under 24 hours we're now looking at 11 NPCs at level 2 or above. That's likely over half of the initial community.
I question this assumption. The sample Thorp from the PRD has 16 people, one of which is 5th level, one 4th, and one 2nd. We don't know anything about the rest of the people (other than that there aren't any 2nd level spells), but JJ said that almost all NPCs are in the 1st-5th range. I think 2nd level NPCs shouldn't be as uncommon as you're saying, although they still shouldn't be in the majority.
I'd say some reasonable guidelines might be:
Generic NPC - start at 1st level.
Family head - +1 level
Profession / Store owner - +2 levels
Town leader (richest person, clergy, etc) - +1 level.
So a blacksmith would be a 3rd level NPC, as would the ranger who helped with getting the town founded. The innkeeper who owns 80% of the town's currency would be 4th level. If the town cleric also happens to be the head of a farming family, he'd be 3rd level.
Obviously, the numbers can deviate, but I think it's a reasonable starting place.
Wow, Heaven's Agent - I feel like a celebrity!
So a couple of things: 1) We need a name, Tremens was suggested. What do other people think? Once we have a name that might be the last of the "ugly" background talk and then I'll make a PbP thread for all this to go on.
1a) On a similar note, while the above name is fine, maybe the romantic in me wants something a little weightier? What do you think about naming our little community after the child of one of our starting families that died during the trip to the valley? However, I have no names in mind?
2) I agree that we should ignore the stat block for now since our city will be growing over this whole thread. But I think that's a great link to refer to.
3) We currently have Four families: Velskings, Cromptons, Worthersons, and the Goredons. Plus our guide. Their family professions are Miners, Cattlemen, Cleric and Farmers, and Baker (I would add and farmers considering the size of the town.)
I vote only one more family with a career that could keep our community a float, and that's it for this first wave of characters before proper chronically starts (which can probably start tonight on the other soon to be made thread). Remember, not every person in the city needs to be named, and this will be especially important as the city gets larger and larger.
That being said, I'll keep a running list of current NPCs at the top of the afore mentioned near future thread.
In summary: 1) Let's decide on a name, we should have at least a few people agreeing on one.
2) We need one more Family. And a name for our guide.
3) We do not need to "stat" everyone in a family, just the key players
4) Look for the other thread soon, though I'll post a link from here.
Lastly, I propose that our town's government will be composed of the heads of reach of the founding families. So assuming that each of our families have both a Mom and a Dad at the head (not that we need to), That will give us a town council of 10.
This sounds like a great idea!
I have to agree with Heaven's Agent that everyone who has posted NPCs is jumping the gun a bit. There are many things to take into consideration before generating NPCs to fill the village. Here are the details you've decided on so far:
Small Settlement (Reason: Enterprise and Riches)
Former Hobgoblin Territory
Threat from Quakes
Before creating further NPCs we should consider the following:
Topography: What is the environment like?
I would like to propose a dry dusty valley with sparse vegetation and ruddy red rock. Think 'Dust Bowl'. This would mean that the attraction to the valley wouldn't be for grazing or farm land but for the 'riches' to be found by mining.
Timeframe: How long has this settlement been a settlement?
I would like to propose that we 'pick-up' on the third generation of settlers which would give them time enough to have established buildings, dig wells, begin mining, setup social structure (mayor, police, etc) and root some family trees.
Motivation: Why would anyone settle this dangerous valley?
I would like to propose that rumors of riches buried in the rocky valley peaked the interest of some enterprising families who in turn banned together when the opportunity to seize the land presented itself. I would also like to suggest that the rumor of 'riches' was off the mark and to the present day little 'riches' have been recovered.
Danger: What is the threat level?
I would suggest that the Hobgoblin have not all been wiped out and some small groups still dwell in the darker spots of the valley, brooding to rebuild there numbers. There is also the threat of quakes and I think it is not unreasonable to say that minor quakes are experienced in the valley almost monthly while stronger quakes might happen once or twice a year, doing some damage.
Looking forward to seeing this grow. :)
A couple responses to InsideOwt.
I think several of those details are things we all would like to decide now, but then it just becomes making a city in more of less the way it is always done. Things like, how dangerous, are there really mineral deposits, or even if the hobgoblins are still around (though I assume no one would pass up the chance for a goblinoid raid) and the like are things that can be left up to the community as more and more posts are made. Similarly, I would say we should start at the beginning in order to really get the organic growth experience that is the goal.
That said, we should talk about what the valley is like.
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ok, focusing on just the name issue. I think we could have it reflect as stated above a lost family member for one of the founding families, most likely the 'ruling' family.
Or base it off of location, need to know the environment for that.
Or off of what is the main produce of the mine? i.e. Coppertown. Granted that's easy just doing a quick reference/idea
I question this assumption. The sample Thorp from the PRD has 16 people, one of which is 5th level, one 4th, and one 2nd. We don't know anything about the rest of the people (other than that there aren't any 2nd level spells), but JJ said that almost all NPCs are in the 1st-5th range. I think 2nd level NPCs shouldn't be as uncommon as you're saying, although they still shouldn't be in the majority.
We can look back at the guidelines established in 3.5 for a better idea of what the rest of a standard community would look like; community stat blocks have been refined for Pathfinder, and only list a handful of NPCs above level 1, but in 3.5 they contained the levels and classes of everyone in the community.
If I remember correctly, NPCs above first level ended up being the exception, with anywhere from 75%-95% of the community possessing only a single level in a NPC class. This makes sense, as a character with two levels in a NPC class is comparable to a first level player character; PCs are supposed to be exceptional individuals from day one, but if a sizable number of NPCs are level 2 or greater, suddenly a level 1 PC is no big thing.
I do remember that the 3.5 rules defined the highest level NPC of each class found in a community. Additionally, if that NPC was level 3 or greater, there would be two NPCs possessing two fewer levels of that class present as well. The number of individuals of that class would expand until level 1 or 2 was reached. As an example, a community could contain the following experts:
Limitations on the highest level of any class were based on several factors, primarily the size of the community; I believe a level 3 NPC in any class ended up being rare below village level. Any community members not accounted for in this manner were level 1 commoners.
I second the proposal for a council of 10, two heads from each family.
As for the name, I like Tremens. Could Tremen be the lost family member? Tremen's March?
Alternatives: Perhaps the settlement is at a low point in the valley and so it was called Bottom Hollow, nicknamed Shaker's Hollow as it is known to be quake territory?
1) We need a name, Tremens was suggested. What do other people think? Once we have a name that might be the last of the "ugly" background talk and then I'll make a PbP thread for all this to go on.
1a) On a similar note, while the above name is fine, maybe the romantic in me wants something a little weightier? What do you think about naming our little community after the child of one of our starting families that died during the trip to the valley? However, I have no names in mind?
I have to agree with Azoun on this one. We need more information, and because of the nature of this project that information may not be available for some time. Ultimately, we don't have to have a name initially; this is a party of settlers, setting out to establish a new community. Historically, the name of many such communities occurred some time after the community was founded.
2) I agree that we should ignore the stat block for now since our city will be growing over this whole thread. But I think that's a great link to refer to.
Those of us with an interest in documenting this community, via wiki or other database, can handle the statblock and try to keep it updated as we progress.
Tremens is latin for "the shakes", I thought it was appropriate for the major feature of the location. It might also be called the the Tremen's Risk or Gambit for a longer name. It sure beats my first idea, Tremor Town...
I second the proposal for a council of 10, two heads from each family.
I like this as well, at least initially. As circumstances change, so too can the government, but this seems like a good place to start.
As for the valley itself, I like the idea of the seismically active valley, but something as barren as InsideOwt proposed rarely ends up supporting any lasting settlements. Even in Nevada's high desert, for example, there's ready sources of water and sufficient grazing land for at least select livestock. Essentially, if a new community cannot provide for itself, it is doomed to failure. Just consider the countless mining ghost towns found throughout the western United States as proof of this.
I'd say a mountain stream should flow through the valley. The ground is rocky, generally poor for growing crops, though it supports hardy native grasses and shrubs; this natural vegetation is enough to support light grazing animals, such as sheep and possibly small numbers of cattle, in addition to any native herbivores we add to the area as we progress. The valley itself leads into volcanically-formed mountains, that remain seismically active despite there not being an eruption of any kind in recorded history. The mountains are rumored to support glacial lakes and springs, and hardy trees grow upon much of their slopes. The valley opens up into the mountain's foothills, a region more suitable for crops yet still requiring more work than usual to generate any sizable harvest. Native grasses and shrubs grow here in abundance, in addition to small groves of trees near permanent and seasonal sources of water.
Essentially, a rough environment, with many obstacles for the community to overcome, but not so many that the odds of success are slim at best.
I second the proposal for a council of 10, two heads from each family.I like this as well, at least initially. As circumstances change, so too can the government, but this seems like a good place to start.
As for the valley itself, I like the idea of the seismically active valley, but something as barren as InsideOwt proposed rarely ends up supporting any lasting settlements. Even in Nevada's high desert, for example, there's ready sources of water and sufficient grazing land for at least select livestock. Essentially, if a new community cannot provide for itself, it is doomed to failure. Just consider the countless mining ghost towns found throughout the western United States as proof of this.
I'd say a mountain stream should flow through the valley. The ground is rocky, generally poor for growing crops, though it supports hardy native grasses and shrubs; this natural vegetation is enough to support light grazing animals, such as sheep and possibly small numbers of cattle, in addition to any native herbivores we add to the area as we progress. The valley itself leads into volcanically-formed mountains, that remain seismically active despite there not being an eruption of any kind in recorded history. The mountains are rumored to support glacial lakes and springs, and hardy trees grow upon much of their slopes. The valley opens up into the mountain's foothills, a region more suitable for crops yet still requiring more work than usual to generate any sizable harvest. Native grasses and shrubs grow here in abundance, in addition to small groves of trees near permanent and seasonal sources of water.
Essentially, a rough environment, with many obstacles for the community to overcome, but not so many that the odds of success are slim at best.
You are very right. If this settlement is not destined to be a ghost town it will need to be seated in a more comfortable landscape.
I second this description of the valley.
Then I third the the description. Definately a very western feel to it. Does that make it official then?
Decided Official Details:
Government: Council of 10 (Two Family Heads)
Environment:
Then I third the the description. Definately a very western feel to it.
What can I say; it's where I grew up. Minus the tremors and hobgoblin miners, of course. >.>
This seems pretty cool. Any chance that we can make special landmarks, urban legends, and areas of interest? Things like an abandoned prison that might be haunted, or an unusually large and old tree in the city park, or a specially made bridge?
Then I third the the description. Definately a very western feel to it.What can I say; it's where I grew up. Minus the tremors and hobgoblin miners, of course. >.>
As you are familiar with this type of environment, would you like to take a stab at describing the native flora and fauna? Which kinds of critters are native to this valley? What are the usual weather patterns?
I propose that the multitude of generic commoner 1 NPCs can be filled out by indentured laborors. They will be largely unimportant but can fill out the population and provide for new roles when they work off their debt. And this way the new guy does not always need to be a migrant, he could be a newly freed debtor
Also, what is the main sustinance of the village? Crops, animals, timber? Who is bringing the starting materials and what are they? This will have a huge effect on the future.
@Odraude, I like the idea of special landmarks, but definately would be more natural or left over from the previous hobgoblin who had lived here. But for an idea, maybe something like Pomona Natural Bridge. And of course the remnants of the hobgoblin's settlement, maybe a burned out husk of a wooden fort-town.
@Brambleman, I think its safe to assume that each family would be bringing their speciality to the area...Cromptons cattle; Velsking mining and definately indentured labor; Wortherson vegetable farming.
Tremen could be the only word on a simple sign post out side of a partially collapsed mine, where the families would have first taken shelter from the elements until they built their own homes.
With news of the families setting out to have their own lands, and a ranger of some account leading the way, this would draw the attention of an itinerant, and above all else mendicant bard 1/, seeing her fortunes in town would be better served if she were in the worlds oldest, and not her own chosen profession. The abandoned mines might be good for some loot, and the new settlement might be good for some stories and songs.
Hana Vacek (Havok) Half Elf Bard 1 The nickname Havok suggests itself from her name, but also when attempting feats of physical prowess, its what she unleashes on herself. Strength and Con are her dump stats.
I'll get her worked up once point buy is agreed to.
With news of the families setting out to have their own lands, and a ranger of some account leading the way, this would draw the attention of an itinerant, and above all else mendicant bard 1/, seeing her fortunes in town would be better served if she were in the worlds oldest, and not her own chosen profession. The abandoned mines might be good for some loot, and the new settlement might be good for some stories and songs.Hana Vacek (Havok) Half Elf Bard 1 The nickname Havok suggests itself from her name, but also when attempting feats of physical prowess, its what she unleashes on herself. Strength and Con are her dump stats.
I'll get her worked up once point buy is agreed to.
STOP
Hana sounds like a PC, not an NPC. Why would an NPC bard attempt any feats of physical prowess? What NPC bard has dump stats? Also, I don't think a fledgling settlement is a wise career choice for a bard.
seeing her fortunes in town would be better served if she were in the worlds oldest, and not her own chosen profession.
Are you aware of what "The World's Oldest Profession" is a euphemism for? Because it's not singing, and the town doesn't seem big enough for a brothel.
The place you are talking about sounds pretty much like here
@Odraude, I like the idea of special landmarks, but definately would be more natural or left over from the previous hobgoblin who had lived here. But for an idea, maybe something like Pomona Natural Bridge. And of course the remnants of the hobgoblin's settlement, maybe a burned out husk of a wooden fort-town.
Why would the wooden fort have been burned out? I thought it was a massive quake that flattened the Hobgoblin camp?
Perhaps we can incorporate the landmark into the destruction of the Hobgoblin camp by having remnant shacks teetering on the edge of a wide and deep crack (formed by the last major quake) that runs diagonally across the valley. Most of the Hobgoblin settlement toppled or fell into the gash when the land split.
Tremen could be the only word on a simple sign post out side of a partially collapsed mine, where the families would have first taken shelter from the elements until they built their own homes.
I like this. I also like the fact its a group of families heading towards the frontier/borderlands for new oppertunities. It would draw some riff-raff and what not. Maybe even some camp followers. The idea of a half-elf bard who is a camp follower who starts the local salon/tavern/drinking dance hall/brothel as the area starts to boom later sounds belivable. A Miss Kitty as you would. But I would look more at a social npc.
@InsideOwt, the settlement could have ben burned during or after the quake. I tipped over lamp or dropped torch could've started it during the confussion. Or the last surviving hobgoblins burned the fort to get any metal nails or keep others from taking over it. But I like the idea of the ruined and shattered camp on a rift. So I second that.