So my group is doing the Kingmaker module. We're currently on the second book. The GM is fairly new to things and he's running things very much by-the-book. He's also pretty smart and he could be using the monsters in much nastier ways.
Unfortunately the encounters are slaughtering us. We've got a group of 4 non-twinked characters and each encounter typically results in a character death. Monsters that hit on a 3, do half a character's health on a full round attack (before crits), and have perception checks in the DC 35 range to spot before they ambush, the works. I've noticed many of the counters revolve around the giant beatstick style (something I've done myself when being lazy as a GM), but more importantly they're effective beatsticks.
Most importantly is that I've gotten tired of the combat heavy games for a while now. I've made this clear with the GM and the kingmaker module seems like it might be interesting, but at the moment is still more combat than anything and I doubt this will change much.
So here's what I'm asking for. I'm looking for some kind of super-twink that can trivialize these encounters so I can cut through the crap. I tried playing a wizard but the only decent crowd control spell I could find was the create pit one. Web has conditions, doesn't work outdoors except in forests, anything with a fortitude save is out the window by default given the beat-stick style opponents. I'm thinking Druid might be better and relying on animal and plant spells. New character is starting at level 6, but with only gear for a level 5, because apparently the party didn't get any loot for most of the time at level 5. Other characters in the party include a battle cleric, a necromancy focused Sorcerer, and a ranger that hasn't a clue (took the ranged path, spends most of his time in melee).
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If you're struggling for money then I suggest spending some time kingdom building. Get a few magic items producers and then you can start making a little money out of it.
I'm surprised a wizard can't come up with spell options to target all three saves. scorching ray for reflex, glitter dust for will.
How often are you having combats? It's rare for us to have more that 1 or 2 combats in a day whilst exploring.
Personally, I can't comment on what it should be like when it's 'by the book' because I'm playing an not running. I don't know what my GM has added in. But if you're dying in most combats then something is wrong. Perhaps you need to scale down the encounters a little and get you're GM to craft some set encounters that fit your ability better, get the party to gain a level or so.
If you're creating a level 6 but only using equipment for a level 5, then your behind the curve a little. I'm surprised it would make that much difference as it is only 1 levels worth, but perhaps the GM could drop a few bits of treasure to help the party out.
The monsters in this one are easy compared to other AP's. What are the classes the party is using, typically strategies, and stats?
Could you also describe one or two of the more difficult non boss encounters?
The monsters in this one are easy compared to other AP's. What are the classes the party is using, typically strategies, and stats?
Could you also describe one or two of the more difficult non boss encounters?
The GM is being a stickler. Withdrawing money has earned the name "embezzling" and it seems to leave a sour taste in his mouth. Even though our kingdom is evil and the rules for doing it (in measured amounts) aren't too bad at all. Therefore, kingdom building isn't very much a profitable venture at the moment.
As for specific monsters, like here's the one that killed my Rogue. Spoilers follow.
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So we were fighting the evil tree. It gets some super-high stealth roll and proceeds to ambush our party, doing half of the fighter's health with his 3 attacks on the surprise round. I think I ate it's attacks for one round, then the third round it downed the fighter. At that point I was a TWF rogue with no one to flank with. The sorcerer tried a few spells but the tree made every save. We ran away. We came back again and this time it outright ate my character in two rounds, again one of which was a surprise round, even with 14 con and +1 hp / level from favored class bonus _and_ a house rule where con is added to HP for free (does not apply to the monsters). These beatsticks just hit stupidly hard. This was also at level 5, so beatsticks with 3 attacks while the fighter only had 1 isn't quite fair.
Shambling mound random encounter also killed our barbarian in two rounds.
In the most recent encounter, I tried playing an elf wizard, figuring I could try and CC all of the giant beatsticks. I tried to cast invisibility sphere, lost concentration due to casting on horseback. Did what wizards typically do and that's run. The Wyrm used draconic heritage to keep pace with a running horse and breathe acid to down my horse. I took generalist and didn't have too many valid options at this point. I already had an obscuring mist on top of me for obscurity, but if I stayed still the acid would eat me. So I cast spiked pit on myself, combined with feather fall (since it's a swift action). Unfortunately GM ruled I still take spike damage and I rolled too high, which knocked me unconscious. Wyrm went to land on ground that wasn't there, and fell on top of me and killed me. Probably the best moment I've had this whole module, even though my character died in the process. Still, the wyrm was flying and decided to single me out (module specifically states it prefers elves). GM also wouldn't let me pre-emptively use false-life and mage armor, even though it lasts for half the day.
As for tactics, we have one player who isn't terribly strong at tactics and he's known for having his characters die regularly. His current character is a cleric, and his idea of starting a battle is casting spiritual weapon and then charging in to whack on it. We have a necromancy focused sorcerer that mostly relies on blindness/deafness, which rarely works. There's the ranger that currently has no animal companion (it died to a wolf), he took the ranged path but he spends most of his time in melee. Then there's me, with nothing at the moment as my wizard died in a rather hilarious fashion while trying to run away.
The GM may allow me to play a skeleton anti-palidan (one of the most vocal members of the party is evil and made it clear he wants to be a lich, so a regular paladin is out of the question, and an anti-palidan that can't heal himself is worthless). It would be fun, but not necessarily effective. Though there is something to be said about running around in +2 full plate with a +1 shield fighting defensively and healing myself every round. And certainly acquiring some natural armor and deflection soon after to counter all of the beatsticks. And being undead being able to stack charisma for hitpoints and paladin abilities.
If I can't just out-twink the encounters, I'll just play a bard with an "eat me" sign and browse the internet on my laptop while my friends get their war gaming kicks. Remember, I'm looking for something that TRIVIALIZES these encounters. If it still gives the monsters a fighting chance, I don't care, as I'll just go with plan Bard.
I'm not sure your GM is actually running this as by-the-book as you and your GM think.
First: The tree only gets a standard action in a surprise round, just like anyone else, which means it can only attack with a single branch. It only gets all 3 attacks if it performs a full-round action. However, the tree is a dangerous encounter due to its good defenses.
Second: Why wouldn't he let you cast spells pre-emptively? That's the main way both false life and mage armor are used; the caster casts them in the morning after he regains his spells. If you only figured once combat started that "you would of course have cast them" then he should certainly deny it, but otherwise there is absolutely no reason to arbitrarily say "sorry, you can't cast spells now".
The GM is being a stickler. Withdrawing money has earned the name "embezzling" and it seems to leave a sour taste in his mouth. Even though our kingdom is evil and the rules for doing it (in measured amounts) aren't too bad at all. Therefore, kingdom building isn't very much a profitable venture at the moment.
As for specific monsters, like here's the one that killed my Rogue. Spoilers follow.
The BP is really the nation's, and it can break the game. I have ran the entire campaign, but I would still be a little more lax with it, even if you had to make rolls to prevent revolts, but that is out of my hands.
As for the kingdom building if you can get more areas with magic items you can increase available magic weapons.
So we were fighting the evil tree. It gets some super-high stealth roll and proceeds to ambush our party, doing half of the fighter's health with his 3 attacks on the surprise round. I think I ate it's attacks for one round, then the third round it downed the fighter. At that point I was a TWF rogue with no one to flank with. The sorcerer tried a few spells but the tree made every save. We ran away. We came back again and this time it outright ate my character in two rounds, again one of which was a surprise round, even with 14 con and +1 hp / level from favored class bonus _and_ a house rule where con is added to HP for free (does not apply to the monsters). These beatsticks just hit stupidly hard. This was also at level 5, so beatsticks with 3 attacks while the fighter only had 1 isn't quite fair.
Your DM may have houserules I don't know about so take the following info with a grain of salt.
You can only take a standard action in the surprise round so the 3 attacks was illegal by the rules.
[spoiler=my response to the tree]
The tree has DR. It is easy to overcome. I would suggest changing weapon types to see what works. Most DM's will say something like "X attack did not seem to do a lot of damage." It is also not that fast. I would up your AC also. What point buy are you guys allowed to use or do you roll for stats. I can help with character building without giving away spoilers.
Shambling mound random encounter also killed our barbarian in two rounds.
Do you guys have knowledge[nature], and does the DM give you meaningful info if you do well such as weakness and how to overcome a creature's DR? The game does have a tendency to have one or 2 really tough random encounters. Sometimes it is better to run. I told my player this up front.
In the most recent encounter, I tried playing an elf wizard, figuring I could try and CC all of the giant beatsticks. I tried to cast invisibility sphere, lost concentration due to casting on horseback. Did what wizards typically do and that's run. The Wyrm used draconic heritage to keep pace with a running horse and breathe acid to down my horse. I took generalist and didn't have too many valid options at this point. I already had an obscuring mist on top of me for obscurity, but if I stayed still the acid would eat me. So I cast spiked pit on myself, combined with feather fall (since it's a swift action). Unfortunately GM ruled I still take spike damage and I rolled too high, which knocked me unconscious. Wyrm went to land on ground that wasn't there, and fell on top of me and killed me. Probably the best moment I've had this whole module, even though my character died in the process. Still, the wyrm was flying and decided to single me out (module specifically states it prefers elves). GM also wouldn't let me pre-emptively use false-life and mage armor, even though it lasts for half the day.
[spoiler]What is CC, and what book was the wyrm in? Do you have combat casting? If not I would get it. Draconic Heritage? That is a 3.5 feat IIRC. It seems the DM is buffing the monsters.
As for tactics, we have one player who isn't terribly strong at tactics and he's known for having his characters die regularly. His current character is a cleric, and his idea of starting a battle is casting spiritual weapon and then charging in to whack on it. We have a necromancy focused sorcerer that mostly relies on blindness/deafness, which rarely works. There's the ranger that currently has no animal companion (it died to a wolf), he took the ranged path but he spends most of his time in melee. Then there's me, with nothing at the moment as my wizard died in a rather hilarious fashion while trying to run away.
The cleric and ranger are not going to be much help unless you sit down with them outside of the game.
The GM may allow me to play a skeleton anti-palidan (one of the most vocal members of the party is evil and made it clear he wants to be a lich, so a regular paladin is out of the question, and an anti-palidan that can't heal himself is worthless). It would be fun, but not necessarily effective. Though there is something to be said about running around in +2 full plate with a +1 shield fighting defensively and healing myself every round. And certainly acquiring some natural armor and deflection soon after to counter all of the beatsticks. And being undead being able to stack charisma for hitpoints and paladin abilities.
I am assuming the skeleton is coming with a level adjustment. To Recap you have a sorcerer that keeps casting the same spell even though it hardly ever works, a ranger with a bow that refuses to use it, and a cleric that thinks it is a barbarian? The character builds won't help until the party decided to work together. That cleric should be playing a fighter if he wants to run into battle. The sorcerer needs to expand their casting options, and the ranger should only be moving into combat once the penalties start to make attacking from range too difficult. Your smite and spells won't help you much unless the creature is good if you go antipaladin, and there are not a lot of good enemies, if any at all for you to go up against.
If I can't just out-twink the encounters, I'll just play a bard with an "eat me" sign and browse the internet on my laptop while my friends get their war gaming kicks. Remember, I'm looking for something that TRIVIALIZES these encounters. If it still gives the monsters a fighting chance, I don't care, as I'll just go with plan Bard.
You can't trivialize the encounters on your own. I am assuming if you are the only one being affective with a twink build the DM will single you out and kill you anyway.
What books are you allowed to use, and how do you want to fight next, as in magic, archery, or melee in case you do decide to try to handle things on your own?
This is not a problem with the AP - this is a problem with your GM. It sounds to me like he's very much in the "GM vs. the PCs" mold - which is never a good place to be in. It works okay in a Gygaxian dungeon crawl (assuming that's your fun), but it ruins a game like Kingmaker.
Best of luck to you, man.
What is CC, and what book was the wyrm in? Do you have combat casting? If not I would get it. Draconic Heritage? That is a 3.5 feat IIRC. It seems the DM is buffing the monsters.
The "wyrm" is the Forest Drake from Rivers Run Red. Draconic heritage is actually the "speed surge" ability. As far as I can tell, this particular encounter was run as written.
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Generic advice (I have the modules read them but will try to avoid spoilers).
1) You are speaking of a mix of set encounters and random encounters.
Some of those creatures have high values in stealth, your party need one o more guys with a high value in perception.
2) High perception will allow you to see them at range. Most monsters don't have good ranged attacks.
3) Buffing spells should be cast well ahead of the encounter. You would need them for at least 12 hours every day, so 2 each of false life, mage armour, greater magical weapon and magical vestment (some of those aren't could be discarded if your group as the right magical stuff) would be needed at your level.
4) Maybe an Oracle of battle would work better for your cleric?
(I haven't jet tried it in a game, but if the cleric tend to "fixate" on a small number of spell and use them repeatedly it seem his class).
5) Party coordination. If you don't work together you will have trouble with the encounters.
6) You are evil. Zombifi some creature and use them as walking decoy 100' ahead of the group.
Wolf zombies will have 3 HD, DR 5/slashing (good against a decent range of animals), can't be poisoned or suffocated, your cleric could control 8 of them and easily repair them when needed.
It will be a bit costly, but than less constantly being killed.
7) Your group seem to lack a big bruiser. Get someone to take the role.
Nothing of the above will trivialize the encounters, all will help.
What is CC, and what book was the wyrm in? Do you have combat casting? If not I would get it. Draconic Heritage? That is a 3.5 feat IIRC. It seems the DM is buffing the monsters.The "wyrm" is the Forest Drake from Rivers Run Red. Draconic heritage is actually the "speed surge" ability. As far as I can tell, this particular encounter was run as written.
I remember it now. I think the DM should be either toning things down or helping the group learn how to play.
If he is giving advice, but it is being ignored then maybe the OP can try to help out. Trying to win an arms race with the DM is pretty much impossible.
I agree. A lot of this seems to be your team's tactical ineptitude, combined with a DM not getting that this AP is A LOT better without lots of character deaths. It's hard to get the feeling of accomplishment with kingdom building when you're on your third character. You might try telling your DM privately that he needs to subtract one from your parties' EL to account for suboptimal tactics.
To answer your question: Druid or Summoner. Either gets 2+ characters for the price of one, plus lots of summoning. Your DM wants to show how badass these monsters are for drama? Let him munch on summoned allies. If you don't have a tank, have disposable infantry.
Failing, that, your necromancer should be having skeletons as body guards by 6th level. In addition, you're barons, so the other two should have a retinue of guards, mooks, hanger's on. The goal? To have them serve as an early warning system by dying. You won't sneak up on anything, but that's okay. You're evil and the ends justify the means of your not dying.
Regarding the long-term buffs, I agree: just mark off the number of spells from your list if you want it always up during the 16 hour day. No need to bother your DM with that. He was a bit of a !#$! to insist you didn't have them up, or at least not give you a roll for it. Wisdom check, maybe?
I know you're frustrated, but hang on. It could also be that there's not enough support for him to prepare RP quirks and personalities for NPCs. In that case, may I recommend:
http://www.roleplayingtips.com/articles/npc-essentials.html
http://www.alderac.com/ultimatetoolbox/
The former is more for role play, while the latter is helpful for brainstorming.
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As long as your cleric was built properly then his tactics aren't all that bad. Healing in combat is not often the best course of action (sometimes, but not often). As long as strength is his highest stat (like it should be for his fighting style) then he's doing the right thing.
The ranger is really draining the group but it may not be entirely his fault. If the battle cleric isn't doing enough to hold the line then there's nothing stopping the monsters from targeting what SHOULD be the most offensive character in your current group. Playing a barbarian or fighter will help with this.
My suggestion is to not build your character so much around stopping beatstick encounters but to provide the anchor your party needs from a teamwork angle. The sorcerer can use control spells, he just needs to start adding them to his list. The cleric can do out of combat healing but he won't be very good at it during combat. The ranger can assist with good amounts of damage, but only if someone keeps the combats away from him.
As such I'd go with an invulnerable rager barbarian. With the build I use at level 6 you'll have DR 3/-, 89 hit points, +14/+9 to hit (or +15 if you can use the heirloom weapon trait), and dealing 2d4+18. This is accounting for a +2 weapon but no strength belt and power attack always being active.
With creatures that are hitting on a three and killing people in two rounds there are only two ways to prevent death. The first and best is to crowd control them so that they don't get to attack. The next best thing is to just out-damage them so that they die before you do. That's what this build does (which I'll share with you if you'd like to use it). Suggest to your sorcerer as well that he pick up grease, glitterdust, and web. All of these in their respective situations are outstanding crowd control spells.
The cleric formerly played several copies of the same fighter and the same barbarian, and they all got eaten. I was a bit surprised to find out my rogue had more hitpoints than some of the cleric's former characters. The DM is running the encounters by the book, which means if we brought our tactics up to par it would be a bit more manageable. It's not so much an arms race as a bar that's set that we don't quite meet. To be honest I really don't care. I'm tired of playing combat heavy games and I mostly just stick with this group because I don't get out too much as it is and I've known them forever.
I tried the wizard route, but web is conditional. It requires anchor points for the web, which means it works great in a dungeon and in woods, but on open plains it's worthless. Combine that with being super squishy and being attacked from above so there is no interposing to having someone guard me is rough. We just reached level 6, so only now can the sorcerer start using his necromancy to accumulate a small army of his own. I've suggested hiring some hands, but the GM made it pretty clear he doesn't want us going down that road (They'll want a share of the loot, we'll get a bad reputation for losing men, yadda yadda. I should just charm random drunks at the bar and skip having to pay them because they won't make it back into town alive.)
The skeleton anti-paladin won't come with a level adjustment, 'cause skeletons are pretty basic as far as undead goes. There's no life (or unlife) at 0 or negative hp, it's instant death. The GM might try and say I get less build points for stats, but I'll argue that it should be like taking a "10" in con, it's not like I could get more points by taking a very low con and then ignoring it. Wizards get MORE build points because they can ignore strength. I mostly wanted to do it for the 3d6 self-heal every round, combined with having stupid-high saves and tons of HP. I didn't count on not being able to smite my foes, but I figure it could come in handy if the GM ever decides to throw in a dash of spice of his own and try and have some good people come along to stop our shenanigans, but at this point I doubt I'll see any creativity on his part.
The main issue is that I'm not enjoying combat. Win or lose, I just don't care anymore. I wouldn't mind doing some of the other parts of the module, but roaming the countryside slaying monsters to make the lands safe for settlement is just another excuse for combat after combat after combat, which hasn't interested me for a long while.
I would like to see your barbarian build, Demoyn. I could hand it off to our current cleric and show him how a proper Barbarian is done. We're doing 25 point buy. Only books allowed is the core book plus Advanced Player's Guide. Oh, and a +2 weapon is right out because of the level 5 wealth limit and the GM is using the "no more than 50% on one item" rule.
you seem to be suffering a lack of interest due to high amounts of deaths. this is unfortunate but happened In one of our recent games games. we played with one dm til lvl 8 with a single Pc death when my barbarian was dominated and the party monk decided attacking was a better option than running. at lvl 8 we switched dms then promptly had a TPK and following the TPK another player died two more times on. subsequent sessions. the effect this had on the game was pretty evident from players loosing interest I'n the plot etc.
I'd recommend a few things. talk the dm into dropping the random encounters all together. he should be able to introduce mini encounters In their place to build Pc confidence or even to help players learn tactics.
wbl of the party needs to be fixed if it isn't combined with everything else success will get harder. that can either be fixed I'n game by just introducing it it through sudden higher treasure or just giving it to you out of game.
I would suggest playing a party buffer. having the party hasted first combat round consistently along with dropping. things like extended heroism can help ALOT.
another option might be an oracle of life to keep them alive. but being a giant hp sponge for the party isn't always fun.
You need to talk to the GM about this.
Don't try to hack the GM's game with a lopsided character, you will only end up contributing to the problem that you describe.
Kingmaker can definitely be an intrigue-filled, roleplay-heavy sandbox type game. If the GM is on the same page, it should be trivial to avoid combat slogs and start dealing with the business of running your own nation.
It bears repeating: do not try to "fix" this situation by creating a "super-twink that can trivialize these encounters so I can cut through the crap." That approach is going to frustrate the hell out of your GM.
Instead, find a time away from the game to describe the issue to him and ask if there are stylistic changes that can be made. I know the campaign, and chances are, he can accommodate you.
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The AP is not a combat filled. With out some one with high bluff, diplomacy, intimadate, and sense motive. There is no way to avoid most of the combat.
The encounters are set up for a group. They are very very tough if your group dose not work on it as a group.
There is no one character you can bring to kingmaker. That will trivialize any encounter. The only way to do this is to make a group based on the needs of the AP.
I let my players know how inportant it is to read the players guide to AP. Befor they make characters. Make characters that work well as a group.
What you need to make Kingmaker Trivialized.
1 Bluff, Diplomacy, Intimadate, and Sense Motive (your level +10)
2 Knowlage Nature, Perception, Survival (your level +10)
3 A group that works as a team. ( most of the encounters are set up with your level CR +2 to +5) ( yes some of the encounters are 5 CR above your level.)
The main issue is that I'm not enjoying combat. Win or lose, I just don't care anymore. I wouldn't mind doing some of the other parts of the module, but roaming the countryside slaying monsters to make the lands safe for settlement is just another excuse for combat after combat after combat, which hasn't interested me for a long while.
I'm curious;
-Did you used to enjoy combat?-Does the rest of the group enjoy combat?
-What do you want to do instead of combat?
-How much forewarning do you get for encounters (tracks, scat/poo, etc...)?
The evil tree is a NASTY encounter(at level 5) if you aren't prepared for it. Though the 3 attacks on the surprise round make me wonder about the DM's knowledge of the game. Shambling Mounds can be pretty nasty too. They both require solid tactics, teamwork and/or solid builds, which sounds like a problem for your group.
About "embezzling" and having guards/minions, your characters are evil and that sounds like something they would do. The DM sounds a little Controlling. IMHO, I'm sure Kingmaker can be made into a less combat, more politics (or whatever) game, that would take a DM and group willing to do so.
If you want to continue, I might suggest a summoning based druid or summoner. My group tends to have lots of summons/animal companions/Eidolon to act as our front line.
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King Maker isn't all about combat. The group I'm in with it now has gone entire sessions where we did nothing but kingdom building. Try sitting down and doing some kingdom building, it's actually a HUGE part of the campaign.
All the party deaths are a mix of really poor tactics and (in the case of the tree) a new DM who isn't completely familiar with things. If you're more comfortable with the rules, ask if he would mind if you DMed or help him with some of the rules.
Also sit down and talk with the other players about their characters and tactics. If the ranger wants to charge into combat, he should go with the TWF or THF combat routes. The cleric could charge into combat like he has been with the right build, but it might just be easier to make a fighter or barbarian (invulnerable barbarian is amazing, mine pretty much cleared the mites out of their cave alone, but enough of that). And explain to the sorcerer that the definition of insanity is trying the same thing over and over again expecting different results, or in other words, start using other spells.
As for you, go for a healer type as your party is obviously lacking that and that's probably a bit factor in all the party deaths. Don't just show up and mess around on your lap top, you seem to have a decent grasp of the rules and that will just make the game worse. Instead, try to help people out with the rules and what they want their characters to be doing.
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I would like to see your barbarian build, Demoyn. I could hand it off to our current cleric and show him how a proper Barbarian is done. We're doing 25 point buy.
Mine was built for PFS so it's 20 point buy and maxes out at level 12. I'll add some suggestions at the end on how to finish the build off. I went halfling because I didn't want to truly min/max but I'll adjust the stats for half-orc or half-elf. If you go half-elf take the exotic weapon alternate racial ability from the APG and replace all instances of falchion with elven curve blade.
Str - 20 (all level bumps go here)
Dex - 12
Con - 15
Int - 8
Wis - 10
Cha - 7
For the extra 5 build points that your campaign allows I'd start by boosting con to 16 and then take either dex to 14 or int to 10. For the Kingmaker campaign specifically I'd probably go int because barbarians get good nature type skills.
Take the invulnerable rager alternate class from the APG. You give up uncanny dodge, improved uncanny dodge, and trap sense in order to get 1/- DR every even numbered level and 1 cold or fire resist every third level.
1- Power Attack
2 - Lesser Beast Totem
3 - Raging Vitality
4 - Lesser Elemental Rage
5 - Iron Will
6 - Beast Totem
7 - Combat Reflexes
8 - Elemental Rage
9 - Improved Critical: Falchion
10 - Greater Beast Totem
11 - Extra Rage Power (Unexpected Strike)
12 - Come and Get Me
After that I'd probably move into the critical feat line (power critical, blinding or sickening critical, etc.) I'm not sure what rage powers I'd take without studying a bit but there are plenty of nice options left on the board. I'd definitely spend at least one on either knockback or the trip one to use in combination with unexpected strike to prevent getting attacked for a turn each combat. If you'd like to go human then I'd suggest taking the other first level feat as toughness. It's not huge and you already have a lot of hit points but the more you have the less of a chance you have of a TPK.
Keep in mind that lesser beast totem isn't very good for this build as you'll never use it unless you're denied your weapons for some reason or if you're in a grapple. Regular beast totem isn't bad but armor class isn't this characters strong suite. Greater beast totem, however, is just that good that it's worth taking two much less optimal feats to get it. At level 11 you'll be dealing three (four if hasted) attacks on the first round while charging (and getting an extra +2 to hit I might add).
The specific items you want to look for are an adamantine falchion of ferocious +3 (don't bother with elemental effects until you max out your basic modifier), a belt of giant strength +6, a cloak of resistance +5, a mithril breastplate +5, ring of protection +3, and amulet of natural armor +3 (along with a nice assortment of potions such as fly, lesser restoration, and see invisibility). Obviously you won't be getting these right off the bat but they're just standard items to strive for (talk your sorcerer into taking craft magic arms and armor).
I've noticed that you've expressed your frustrations with the web spell in a wilderness campaign multiple time but you've never even mentioned any other crowd control spells outside of the pit spells. I don't know that I can express enough how good grease and glitterdust are at your level. In many cases they're even better than web at it's most optimal placement as neither of them hinder your party from attacking the prone or blinded creatures. Also getting a lesser rod of dazing spell turns any blast spell into a great crowd control spell. Use it on a fireball to daze all creatures in a 20' radius for three rounds or throw it on a flaming sphere to have a mobile ball of two-round dazing goodness.
As a player in Kingmaker (we just finished the 2nd book) i have to say that multiple player after 2nd level (barring any accidents) is wrong, from what i have understand this is partly due to your DM's understanding of the rules and most importantly due to your group's tactics (or lack of them) and maybe really sucky builds.
Human Ranger worshiper of Erastil (switch hitter)(that's me)
Human Rogue (dex-based TWF)
Gnome Summoner
Human Cleric of Iomadae/Holy vindicator (Healbot/waste of space/wanna be paladin)
First of all i have to say to the OP two things:
1) The above party has run from an encounter two times (both in the first book), the first was from a will o wisp when we were 2nd level, and the other was running from 3 Trolls at 2nd level. Be aware that we aren't in the habit of running from encounters, at 3rd level we defeated an encounter of 3 trolls, when we were 5th level the 3/4 of the party (the cleric was missing) faced 12 worgs, and at 6th level we faced 8 trolls. We defeated all of the above encounters.
2) Because the encounter were too easy i was intentionally shooting my character on the leg (not really casting spells, not buying good gear etc.) In order to solve that problem the player of the summoner decided to replace the summoner with an elf wizard (evoker/blaster) in order to make the battles if not more challenging then more interesting.
Now that those have been said, i should say that our group rolled for stats (2d6+6) and we all rolled pretty high.
Also the Kingmaker can be both a heavy combat game and a non-heavy combat game, and i know that because we are playing it heavy combat and i am seeing how much we are missing.
Now on the tactics part, the 3/4 of the party are well built and we are dominating the game because we almost never let the enemies play with us and do what they want, in fact we "play" them, it is us who use the best tactics and making fun of them. Tactics are very important and we have been very good at them that the game stopped being challenging for a while, so my advice is to talk with your co-players and sort thing out.
BTW we run over the forest drake. (but on the other hand we level 8 when we ran into it....)
Had another session yesterday. I went with plan bard. We ran into the lizard folk and our sorcerer, being the cocky king was like, "Hey, how's it going? We're looking to see if you're interested in trade." So EVERYONE came to the front gates. Then they found some excuse or another to attack (which was a surprise round despite the fact that no one was stealthed). On the plus side, it was just a bunch of javelins at my bard for all of 4 damage. We didn't break out a map immediately, so by the time the map was down, I already had a crocodile that would bite + grapple + deathroll (knock prone) over and over and over on top of my character. The damage wasn't a particular bother, just the fact that I could never cast spells like, oh, hypnotic pattern or grease on the big guy's weapon. After some time the sorcerer finally was able to kill the croc on top of me, only for Mr. Big Guy to make his reflex saving through on grease twice (despite being exhausted by the sorcerer on the second try). I would've had more chanced early on, but whatever.
3 people died in that game because fighting everyone at once instead of staggered as the book recommended made the EL much higher. That and our party was busy fighting the small fries which, aside from the grappling crocs, were really no threat so Mr. Big Guy had free reign to mow through us. Then the god spirit showed up and finished off the Cleric while the sorcerer fled.
Yes, the module is about the kingdom building, but the GM is uncreative and is like, "But you gotta clear these lands for settlement and there's these events which I can't run because you keep coming back to town half dead within a day, you're never gone for a week at a time." He takes special joy in running the module as is, and not changing it up or down like a good GM. Regardless of that, I've gotten tired of D&D combat for a couple of years now and it's the reason I stopped being a GM myself. I would try and introduce some story but all it boiled down to was a bunch of combat-oriented characters looking for an excuse to fight. Not necessarily the most effective combat mongers, but still. I'm also doing a game with a more story oriented group and I'm having much more fun with that group, but they only meet half as often and attendance is a big issue still as it's a new group.
Just to give an idea of how this group handles problems... We have a public dissenter. Mr. Sorcerer King just gives him a good old public execution via shocking grasp. Despite this being a lawful kingdom. So immediately any concept of intrigue and depth died with the plot point. Oh, and unrest jumped up. This happened while I wasn't there, because I was having so much fun I showed up hours late on purpose. I made it clear I wasn't having fun to the group and they're all like, "But we are."
Anyhow, I might've gotten my "trivializes encounters" character I wanted. The GM vetted an undead lord skeleton champion. Level adjustment of +3, except using the monsters as PCs rules from the SRD it's been bumped down to +2 so 4 levels of anti-paladin. It grants stupid amounts of stats and anything the character kills becomes a skeleton minion within 1d4 minutes. So my character will take over (lawful) executions for a time to get a few minions, and they should easily refresh themselves through combat. The smite will probably be wasted, but +7 to reflex and will saves (and +infinity to con) ought to make up for it. Plus DR5/bludgeoning and DR5/magic and soon DR/10 magic. 19 AC before armor, 27 with +1 full plate (dex limted), 32 with a +1 shield. Character only has +5 base attack, so no second attack unfortunately (if I dropped undead lord _or_ skeletal champion I could have it immediately, or there's creative accounting in being an undead lord with 5 racial HD for level adjustment of +4, but only when we hit the half-way mark to 7). The GM is being lenient with respecing, so if this concept does survive I can probably get +3 free racial HD at party level 10 by using the undead lord for 5 total racial HD. Really high AC, really high saves, lots of HP, free minions, including an aura to buff them, decent damage output. And CE as an excuse to be a jerk for some admittedly childish payback. A useless smite good, but I think the rest of the kit makes up for it.
Can you get a copy of the sorcerer's spell list?
Off the top of my head:
1st:
Shocking Grasp
Magic Missile
True strike
Ray of Enfeeblement
2nd:
Spectral Hand
False Life
Command Undead
3rd:
Ray of Exhaustion
Blindness/Deafness
This happened while I wasn't there, because I was having so much fun I showed up hours late on purpose. I made it clear I wasn't having fun to the group and they're all like, "But we are."
If you're having so little fun in this game that you're purposely showing up late for the session, while the other players actually are having fun the way things are, may I suggest trying to find another game with players who like to play more similar to your style?
It simply sounds like the rest of your group is very "combat, combat, combat", while you're not. Trying to get everybody else to roleplay instead of wading into combat-situations probably won't work.
Had another session yesterday. I went with plan bard. We ran into the lizard folk and our sorcerer, being the cocky king was like, "Hey, how's it going? We're looking to see if you're interested in trade." So EVERYONE came to the front gates. Then they found some excuse or another to attack (which was a surprise round despite the fact that no one was stealthed). On the plus side, it was just a bunch of javelins at my bard for all of 4 damage. We didn't break out a map immediately, so by the time the map was down, I already had a crocodile that would bite + grapple + deathroll (knock prone) over and over and over on top of my character. The damage wasn't a particular bother, just the fact that I could never cast spells like, oh, hypnotic pattern or grease on the big guy's weapon. After some time the sorcerer finally was able to kill the croc on top of me, only for Mr. Big Guy to make his reflex saving through on grease twice (despite being exhausted by the sorcerer on the second try). I would've had more chanced early on, but whatever.
I see your party is still in the hack and slash stage. It is possible to talk your way through encounters. I think they should let you do the talking and decision making unless they don't mind dying. I would probably try to get the DM to talk to them outside of the game so they know that a sword is not the answer all the time if he has more influence over them than you do.
Just to give an idea of how this group handles problems... We have a public dissenter. Mr. Sorcerer King just gives him a good old public execution via shocking grasp. Despite this being a lawful kingdom. So immediately any concept of intrigue and depth died with the plot point. Oh, and unrest jumped up. This happened while I wasn't there, because I was having so much fun I showed up hours late on purpose. I made it clear I wasn't having fun to the group and they're all like, "But we are."
It seems the problem is more with the group also. They just want to kill things. Certain people should not play evil characters. It is not for everyone.
Anyhow, I might've gotten my "trivializes encounters" character I wanted. The GM vetted an undead lord skeleton champion. Level adjustment of +3, except using the monsters as PCs rules from the SRD it's been bumped down to +2 so 4 levels of anti-paladin. It grants stupid amounts of stats and anything the character kills becomes a skeleton minion within 1d4 minutes. So my character will take over (lawful) executions for a time to get a few minions, and they should easily refresh themselves through combat. The smite will probably be wasted, but +7 to reflex and will saves (and +infinity to con) ought to make up for it. Plus DR5/bludgeoning and DR5/magic and soon DR/10 magic. 19 AC before armor, 27 with +1 full plate (dex limted), 32 with a +1 shield. Character only has +5 base attack, so no second attack unfortunately (if I dropped undead lord _or_ skeletal champion I could have it immediately, or there's creative accounting in being an undead lord with 5 racial HD for level adjustment of +4, but only when we hit the half-way mark to 7). The GM is being lenient with respecing, so if this concept does survive I can probably get +3 free racial HD at party level 10 by using the undead lord for 5 total racial HD. Really high AC, really high saves, lots of HP, free minions, including an aura to buff them, decent damage output. And CE as an excuse to be a jerk for some admittedly childish payback. A useless smite good, but I think the rest of the kit makes up for it.
You might want to look at the holy vindicator also.
The sorcerer wants to go route of lichdom. Since the process of this requires unspeakable acts of evil, he went ahead and went for the evil alignment, though chaotic neutral describes the character best.
The DM is on board with the combat-heavy style as well. He'll do some things like, say, allow a animal handling roll to avoid a random encounter of a small herd of elks (particularly because the ranger had an elk animal companion), but when conversing with the lizard folk the lizard king states, "No trade, we want war." Yet they didn't attack on sight. A bit of conversation later and we're now fighting all of them at once for an absurdly high EL.
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Can you get a copy of the sorcerer's spell list?Off the top of my head:
1st:
Shocking Grasp (horrible)
Magic Missile (bad, though I disagree with this to an extent)
True strike (bad)
Ray of Enfeeblement (horrible)2nd:
Spectral Hand (bad)
False Life (bad)
Command Undead (bad)3rd:
Ray of Exhaustion (good)
Blindness/Deafness (bad AND second level)
This list is great for someone who wants to roleplay a lich in the making during a game with very limited combat. It's pretty horrible for someone that just wants to get into fights. I've added the Treantmonk guide's rating for this spell list in parenthesis in the quote. I don't know that I can even really offer any help at this point. :(
I used to live in a very small town so I know what playing with bad players is like. If you're really not having any fun (and I can't see why you would be at this point) then the best thing to do is really just to back out of the game, as upsetting as that may be.
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My friend who's playing a witch in my Rivers Run Red game pointed me to this thread. So, let me tell you, play a witch. Max out your Int, take Extra Hex as often as possible, run Slumber and (primarily) Misfortune at every opportunity.
One thing I will point out - as a GM, I roll in front of the screen and don't fudge any rolls. I'm guessing this probably doesn't describe your GM.
But witches...yeah. Insane.
So we were fighting the evil tree. It gets some super-high stealth roll and proceeds to ambush our party, doing half of the fighter's health with his 3 attacks on the surprise round. I think I ate it's attacks for one round, then the third round it downed the fighter. At that point I was a TWF rogue with no one to flank with. The sorcerer tried a few spells but the tree made every save. We ran away. We came back again and this time it outright ate my character in two rounds, again one of which was a surprise round, even with 14 con and +1 hp / level from favored class bonus _and_ a house rule where con is added to HP for free (does not apply to the monsters). These beatsticks just hit stupidly hard. This was also at level 5, so beatsticks with 3 attacks while the fighter only had 1 isn't quite fair.
You can't full attack in a surprise round, you can only take a standard action, the tree should only have gotten 1 attack before you were able to respond.
If you're having trouble with creatures that have a full attack then play a cavalier. When you can use it, mounted combat is broken as all hell, and it tears apart anything requiring a full attack with the feat Ride-By Attack. You can swing in with your lance at 2-3x damage hitting for easily as much as anything with a full attack and then continue the charge away, not provoking any attack of opportunity. Your only worry is creatures with pounce, but once you can obtain a flying mount you can ignore even that.
Sounds like you're playing with an annoying GM that likes to blame his own failures on the players for not measuring up. I would say that really your best option would be to get out of the game and save yourself the hassle. Trying to overpower the GM with broken characters (while sometimes fun) generally provokes bad feelings and drama. Let the people you're playing with enjoy dying while you go join a group that better suits your play style.
...I made it clear I wasn't having fun to the group and they're all like, "But we are."...
Leave it or love it!
Really, what are you trying to gain from this discussion? Do you want the uber PC to show it to the GM and thereby probably ruining it for him and all the other players?
This is really nothing to do with "how to survive the encounters and have an effective group." Not at all. I've made it clear that I will have 1,000 reincarnations of the same useless bard (not that bards have to be useless, but playing a sub-optimal character on purpose) because I don't CARE.
I'll try this skeleton champion undead lord anti-paladin. (Which I'll have to discuss some kind of limits on summon undead, as it has no duration and could lead to an infinite sized army, I may be aiming to twink but I'd rather have the limit set ahead of time instead of getting slapped mid-game for abusing it.) The goal here is with +7 to all saves, 114 HP (partly due to the extra HP rule, but also due to cha replacing con as undead), DR5/magic DR5/bludgeoning, a 2d6 self heal every round and 2d6 bonus damage with channel smite, free undead minions from killing and summoning, fear once per day (at -4 to save against thanks to the antipaladin aura), +6 natural armor, and decent strength. With this character I intend to speed combats up so we can get to the non-combat portions of the adventure path. And specifically continue to not care about combat by being so twinked I can play poorly and still stomp it. The GM is running the encounters by the book (more or less), so I doubt he's going to scale the encounters up just to make up for my character. He obviously hasn't scaled anything back to make up for our party's lack of ability.
As I've said before, the ranger dumped all of his cash into a +2 melee weapon and didn't go TWF and he has no strength or stat items at level 6. He went for the bow focus, but never uses the thing. My antipaladin took a masterwork composite longbow (+6 damage), and I may spend a combat plinking things from afar and doing more damage just to piss the ranger off. The sorcerer thinks he's the best thing since Elminster or some such. The other player in our group enjoys making characters more than playing them and regularly acts suicidal. Though to be fair some of the beatsticks have bursted his characters down in two rounds because he was not thoroughly optimized (I stress the thoroughly part, the characters seem decent). I stopped playing my original Rogue character because TWF + Sneak Attack does not work when the person to flank with is unconscious or dead all of the time. And my group is still telling me, "You should've had some strength on your rogue." Yeah, because they totally understand how gimping my to-hit for an extra +3 damage totally eclipses that 4d6 weapon + sneak attack.
I'm tired of combat-focused gaming and I'm close to telling my friends of 10+ years that I'm not gonna show up again. I made it clear I'm not enjoying it, but they're even more poorly socialized than I am and are thus rather indifferent to my plight, so I'll try a super-twink build as a last resort. The person GMing this is still inexperienced and has very little understanding of a balanced encounter (he's of the impression that if the numbers line up, it must be okay to run an encounter, but he'll often not account for terrain or other modifiers, or in our case suboptimal characters). I've explained this, but he doesn't quite understand it. In the case of my twink, it's a CR 3 with 4 class levels using the Monsters As PCs rules which means the CR is bumped down to 2 for a level 6 character. So the numbers "add up" and that's why he's allowing it.
This is really nothing to do with "how to survive the encounters and have an effective group." Not at all. I've made it clear that I will have 1,000 reincarnations of the same useless bard (not that bards have to be useless, but playing a sub-optimal character on purpose) because I don't CARE.
I'll try this skeleton champion undead lord anti-paladin. (Which I'll have to discuss some kind of limits on summon undead, as it has no duration and could lead to an infinite sized army, I may be aiming to twink but I'd rather have the limit set ahead of time instead of getting slapped mid-game for abusing it.) The goal here is with +7 to all saves, 114 HP (partly due to the extra HP rule, but also due to cha replacing con as undead), DR5/magic DR5/bludgeoning, a 2d6 self heal every round and 2d6 bonus damage with channel smite, free undead minions from killing and summoning, fear once per day (at -4 to save against thanks to the antipaladin aura), +6 natural armor, and decent strength. With this character I intend to speed combats up so we can get to the non-combat portions of the adventure path. And specifically continue to not care about combat by being so twinked I can play poorly and still stomp it. The GM is running the encounters by the book (more or less), so I doubt he's going to scale the encounters up just to make up for my character. He obviously hasn't scaled anything back to make up for our party's lack of ability.
As I've said before, the ranger dumped all of his cash into a +2 melee weapon and didn't go TWF and he has no strength or stat items at level 6. He went for the bow focus, but never uses the thing. My antipaladin took a masterwork composite longbow (+6 damage), and I may spend a combat plinking things from afar and doing more damage just to piss the ranger off. The sorcerer thinks he's the best thing since Elminster or some such. The other player in our group enjoys making characters more than playing them and regularly acts suicidal. Though to be fair some of the beatsticks...
I don't remember if I or anyone else mentioned this earlier but you should DM. Sometimes people just need to be shown the way. Run a campaign, and explain how things happen the way they do so players, and especially the GM get a "behind the screen" look. When you campaign is up he should be better for it.
I don't remember if I or anyone else mentioned this earlier but you should DM. Sometimes people just need to be shown the way. Run a campaign, and explain how things happen the way they do so players, and especially the GM get a "behind the screen" look. When you campaign is up he should be better for it.
I've run plenty in the past for this group. I've offered to run one now. But I've made it clear I'm not running Pathfinder and they players have determined my favored system (Savage Worlds) is "crap" and they make all sorts of excuses. From it being too "complicated" (despite playing Battletech RPG on the side), to outright sabotaging the game like a child throwing a temper tantrum "I want to play a bear." (Meaning, if we play, I won't even try.)
10+ years of friendship is a lot of inertia to overcome and I'm short on socialization venues at it is, but these guys are just... Ug.