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Situation-
I cleave the goblin dog in twain in a mighty blow (end of my turn)
(Next turn)
Seeing the goblin who has been ravaging our cleric, I move the five feet forward to attack.... and get AOO'd by the goblin.
Why you ask? Because I stepped in to the square with the dog on it, which the DM considers Difficult terrain.
So my question is two-fold
1. Does a fallen enemy (med or smaller size) make a square difficult terrain?
2. Where is it stated moving [into] a threatened square provokes an AOO?
- Not using a polearm or spear. Assume Short Sword for this argument and does not have a readied action.
Any help resolving this inquiry would be appreciated. 99% of the time I am of the "DM makes the rules" type mindset, but in this case, the making a fallen enemy 'Difficult Terrain" only really affects the characters because "you can move through an allies square" so the enemies are not being penalized by this ruling.
Thanks in advance for any clarification. Assume newbie to novice Pathfinder experience in your answers.
Situation-
I cleave the goblin dog in twain in a mighty blow (end of my turn)(Next turn)
Seeing the goblin who has been ravaging our cleric, I move the five feet forward to attack.... and get AOO'd by the goblin.Why you ask? Because I stepped in to the square with the dog on it, which the DM considers Difficult terrain.
So my question is two-fold
1. Does a fallen enemy (med or smaller size) make a square difficult terrain?2. Where is it stated moving [into] a threatened square provokes an AOO?
- Not using a polearm or spear. Assume Short Sword for this argument and does not have a readied action.Any help resolving this inquiry would be appreciated. 99% of the time I am of the "DM makes the rules" type mindset, but in this case, the making a fallen enemy 'Difficult Terrain" only really affects the characters because "you can move through an allies square" so the enemies are not being penalized by this ruling.
If you do make corpses difficult terrain the DM should be applying the rule universally. A corpse has no allies.
Thanks in advance for any clarification. Assume newbie to novice Pathfinder experience in your answers.
There is debate on whether or not corpses cause difficult terrain (I'm personally of the opinion that a medium sized corpse in a 5 foot square isn't that big of an impediment but YMMV), moving into a threatened square isn't what provokes an AoO, it's moving out of one that does.
Also, a corpse can't have allies. If your DM chooses to make corpses difficult terrain, they should be difficult terrain for everyone, not just PCs.
Maybe if this was a body of a large creature I may consider it as difficult terrain. But medium creatures don't take up the whole square. That is why you can move through squares occupied by allies. Man your GM is tough.
If you were moving through difficult terrain you would provoke even if it is a 5 feet of movement. Because it isn't a 5 foot step, it takes as much effort as moving 10 feet normally.
Except the rules specifically state that it's moving out of a threatened square that provokes, not in.
If you were moving through difficult terrain you would provoke even if it is a 5 feet of movement. Because it isn't a 5 foot step, it takes as much effort as moving 10 feet normally.
You would only provoke moving through difficult terrain if you move out of a threatened square. It would not count as a 5' step, so only a standard action would be allowed, but no AoO unless something threatened the original square.
1. Does a fallen enemy (med or smaller size) make a square difficult terrain?2. Where is it stated moving [into] a threatened square provokes an AOO?
- Not using a polearm or spear. Assume Short Sword for this argument and does not have a readied action.
1. Judgment call. Though you can move through an allies' square without it being difficult terrain, so I don't think a dead dog would qualify either. Amusingly, Dark Heresy has rules for killing an enemy so hard that he turns into difficult terrain. ;)
2. This isn't stated anywhere. As mentioned, entering a threatened square does not provoke an AoO.
Developer
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If you were moving through difficult terrain you would provoke even if it is a 5 feet of movement. Because it isn't a 5 foot step, it takes as much effort as moving 10 feet normally.
Not necessarily, as mentioned above, you provoke for leaving a threatened square, not for entering. It doesn't matter how much effort the move takes. Unless the goblin had reach, in which case you were indeed leaving a threatened square.
Regarding corpses, the core says this:
You can’t move through a square occupied by an opponent unless the opponent is helpless. You can move through a square occupied by a helpless opponent without penalty. Some creatures, particularly very large ones, may present an obstacle even when helpless. In such cases, each square you move through counts as 2 squares.
Prettey clear, unless it's a very big baddie, no difficult terrain.
Prettey clear, unless it's a very big baddie, no difficult terrain.
Dead is, indeed, pretty helpless. :D
Regarding corpses, the core says this:
Prettey clear, unless it's a very big baddie, no difficult terrain.
You can’t move through a square occupied by an opponent unless the opponent is helpless. You can move through a square occupied by a helpless opponent without penalty. Some creatures, particularly very large ones, may present an obstacle even when helpless. In such cases, each square you move through counts as 2 squares.
I agree with this reading.
The other thing to consider, though, is that a dead creature is no-one's ally, it's an obstacle. So it should affect both the goblins and the PCs if it affects either. Just because you were friends with that corpse before it was a corpse doesn't mean the corpse can get out of your way when you move through the way your friend could.
Dead is, indeed, pretty helpless. :D
Prettey clear, unless it's a very big baddie, no difficult terrain.
The dead can't say no!
It is my understanding that...
* ... a 5-foot step NEVER provokes an attack of opportunity,
* ... it is using a standard move-action to LEAVE a threatened square that provokes one.
* ... difficult terrain is difficult terrain for everyone unless you have a special ability to move through said terrain.
That being said if, during the actual fight in the game, a situation comes up that all involved are at a loss on how to handle it "by the book", then the DM made a good call by saying "Well, here's how it works...". His job is to make the story move forward. And that's what he did.
So you can go to your DM and mention what has been said here for when events like this that happens in the future. He could consider it... Or he may not. Chances are that he will. But, in the end, your DM always has the last word.
Ultradan
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Developer
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It is my understanding that...
* ... a 5-foot step NEVER provokes an attack of opportunity,
Correct, if the thing you're taking is a 5ft step. If it's out of (not into) a square difficult terrain, or your speed is 5ft, you actually cannot take a 5ft step, even moving only 5ft.
* ... it is using a standard move-action to LEAVE a threatened square that provokes one.
Yes, or should you happen to leave a threatened square at any point during said move.
* ... difficult terrain is difficult terrain for everyone unless you have a special ability to move through said terrain.
Absolutely
That being said if, during the actual fight in the game, a situation comes up that all involved are at a loss on how to handle it "by the book", then the DM made a good call by saying "Well, here's how it works...". His job is to make the story move forward. And that's what he did.So you can go to your DM and mention what has been said here for when events like this that happens in the future. He could consider it... Or he may not. Chances are that he will. But, in the end, your DM always has the last word.
Ultradan
This is true, but this forum is to help the GM to know what the RAW is, so that they don't have to make on the fly judgment calls, though you've gotta do what you've gotta do. Nothing wrong with pointing to the book for future instances, since, by the rules the action described did not draw an AoO.
You provoke when you leave a threatened square (assuming you don't have a feat, class ability, or use the 5ft step maneuver).
However, that is not the only thing that can provoke an attack of opportunity.
Move 5 Feet through Difficult TerrainIn some situations, your movement may be so hampered that you don't have sufficient speed even to move 5 feet (a single square). In such a case, you may spend a full-round action to move 5 feet (1 square) in any direction, even diagonally. Even though this looks like a 5-foot step, it's not, and thus it provokes attacks of opportunity normally.
This is a specific rule. If you move 5 feet through difficult terrain, you provoke an attack of opportunity when you move out of a threatened square. The rules specifically state it's not a normal 5ft movement.
Also, you can provoke for any other action that is distracting. Casting, making ranged attacks, picking something up off the ground, etc. None of these require you to leave a threatened square to provoke.
However, I agree the goblin dog is not difficult terrain.
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Situation-
I cleave the goblin dog in twain in a mighty blow (end of my turn)(Next turn)
Seeing the goblin who has been ravaging our cleric, I move the five feet forward to attack.... and get AOO'd by the goblin.Why you ask? Because I stepped in to the square with the dog on it, which the DM considers Difficult terrain.
Whether the dog makes it difficult terrain is up to the GM/table culture. If it is difficult terrain, you can't 5-foot-step into it, and would need to move instead. That should never be a "Gotcha" moment. GM should say so and you then decide on your action and the risk. The latter isn't a statement about rules, it's a statement about good playing practice.
Moving into a square, whether difficult terrain, doesn't trigger an AoO.
An unconscious ally is an ally, but if DM says a prone figure makes a square difficult, it is difficult for all. As such, it doesn't apply just to PCs.
You provoke when you leave a threatened square (assuming you don't have a feat, class ability, or use the 5ft step maneuver).
However, that is not the only thing that can provoke an attack of opportunity.
Move 5 Feet through Difficult TerrainIn some situations, your movement may be so hampered that you don't have sufficient speed even to move 5 feet (a single square). In such a case, you may spend a full-round action to move 5 feet (1 square) in any direction, even diagonally. Even though this looks like a 5-foot step, it's not, and thus it provokes attacks of opportunity normally.
This is a specific rule. If you move 5 feet through difficult terrain, you provoke an attack of opportunity when you move out of a threatened square. The rules specifically state it's not a normal 5ft movement.
The rule in question doesn't refer to moving through difficult terrain in general. It only applies to when you'd otherwise be unable to move at all. In that case you can effectively double move (with all normal rules about double moves and AoOs) for 5' of movement.
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Developer
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If it is difficult terrain, you can't 5-foot-step into it, and would need to move instead.
Actually, I can't see where penalties are applied into for difficult terrain... hmm. I could have sworn I read that stepping into said terrain is normal cost, but leaving each square is double.
I may have made this up.
In fact, I may have it wrong. The only guidelines I see is that
Each diagonal move into a difficult
terrain square counts as 3 squares
Looks to me like into is where the cost is applied, out of is not.
Makes more sense that way, anyway, now that I think about it.
The rule in question doesn't refer to moving through difficult terrain in general. It only applies to when you'd otherwise be unable to move at all. In that case you can effectively double move (with all normal rules about double moves and AoOs) for 5' of movement.
I was just trying to point out that there are other issues involved, not saying that was the rule that applied to all situations. Some other rules to keep in mind...
You can only take a 5-foot-step if your movement isn't hampered by difficult terrain or darkness. Any creature with a speed of 5 feet or less can't take a 5-foot step, since moving even 5 feet requires a move action for such a slow creature.Hampered Movement: Difficult terrain, obstacles, or poor visibility can hamper movement.
Difficult Terrain: Difficult terrain, such as heavy undergrowth, broken ground, or steep stairs, hampers movement. Each square of difficult terrain counts as 2 squares of movement. Each diagonal move into a difficult terrain square counts as 3 squares. You can't run or charge across difficult terrain.
If you occupy squares with different kinds of terrain, you can move only as fast as the most difficult terrain you occupy will allow.
Flying and incorporeal creatures are not hampered by difficult terrain.
Obstacles: Like difficult terrain, obstacles can hamper movement. If an obstacle hampers movement but doesn't completely block it, each obstructed square or obstacle between squares counts as 2 squares of movement. You must pay this cost to cross the obstacle, in addition to the cost to move into the square on the other side. If you don't have sufficient movement to cross the obstacle and move into the square on the other side, you can't cross it. Some obstacles may also require a skill check to cross.
On the other hand, some obstacles block movement entirely. A character can't move through a blocking obstacle.
Flying and incorporeal creatures are able to avoid most obstacles.
Now,
I can see how the goblin dog's corpse, after thinking of it, could be considered an obstacle. If he did, say, twice the dogs HP in one hit, then as a GM I might rule it had been chopped in half, spilling guts and blood all over the floor. If that were the case, the corpse would present an obstacle (slippery insides and blood all over the square) and thus requiring care to move through (thus negating the ability to 5ft step). Has nothing to do with AoO, but it could be considered an obstacle and not difficult terrain. However, I have seen many people get difficult terrain and obstacle confused.|
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The rule in question doesn't refer to moving through difficult terrain in general. It only applies to when you'd otherwise be unable to move at all. In that case you can effectively double move (with all normal rules about double moves and AoOs) for 5' of movement.
That rule doesn't, true, but this one does:
You can only take a 5-foot-step if your movement isn’t hampered by difficult terrain or darkness. Any creature with a speed of 5 feet or less can’t take a 5-foot step, since moving even 5 feet requires a move action for such a slow creature.
If it is difficult terrain, you can't 5-foot-step into it, and would need to move instead.Actually, I can't see where penalties are applied into for difficult terrain... hmm. I could have sworn I read that stepping into said terrain is normal cost, but leaving each square is double.
I may have made this up.
In fact, I may have it wrong. The only guidelines I see is that
Each diagonal move into a difficult
terrain square counts as 3 squaresLooks to me like into is where the cost is applied, out of is not.
Makes more sense that way, anyway, now that I think about it.
Check my quote above. The PRD combat section has it. Difficult terrain costs 2 or 3 (horizontal or diagonal). Obstacles double move cost as well.
The rule in question doesn't refer to moving through difficult terrain in general. It only applies to when you'd otherwise be unable to move at all. In that case you can effectively double move (with all normal rules about double moves and AoOs) for 5' of movement.That rule doesn't, true, but this one does:
You can only take a 5-foot-step if your movement isn’t hampered by difficult terrain or darkness. Any creature with a speed of 5 feet or less can’t take a 5-foot step, since moving even 5 feet requires a move action for such a slow creature.
I usually use the PRD, since they tend to keep it up to date on errata, also is searchable. :)
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The rule about always being able to move 5 feet doesn't then make that move a 5 foot step. A 5 foot step is a non-action that can only be taken in certain circumstances. A move action to move a minimum would provoke, same as any other move.
I've generally seen terrain costs applied based upon the destination square, not the starting square, but opine that the rules aren't particularly clear.
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Check my quote above. The PRD combat section has it. Difficult terrain costs 2 or 3 (horizontal or diagonal). Obstacles double move cost as well.
Yeah, you're in the right place. But either stepping into or out of a square of said terrain accrues the cost, I was just trying to decide which. Seems into the square is where the extra movement cost happens.