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Later? As in a full attack? While sniping?Why are people worried about the Rogue? Getting a snipe action in was never a function of being able to hit, but of being able to be hidden. Guns don't even threaten so it can't be as part of a flank. What am I missing here?Rogues are only 3/4 !ab, and so hitting with the later attacks in dual wield isn't common, even with weapon finesse.
The criteria is the enemy is flatfooted or denied dex.
If you go before them in init in the first round, the are flat footed.
Potion of nvisability.
Or just a high stealth.Sniping allows you to shoot and stay hidden.
I forgot about boots of haste. Add another attack to take the damge to 227.5.
12 short of average *9 before adding any enhancements.
If you are sniping you may make one attack and then remain hidden. A potion of invisibility will break on the first attack, you would need greater invis and they don't make potions of that. After the first attack, they know you are there, and are no longer flat-footed. Your super broken rogue-sniper with a gun gets one attack per round with SA, and that is ... really not super impressive, actually.
Also, I can't find the original post with math, but if you are vital striking, the precision damage doesn't get multiplied. I don't know if you did that or not, just bringing it up as a possible place where math mistakes can be made.
Being flatfooted or being denied dexterity doesn't end mid round. The original post with math is in the other thread.
I am glad you agree it is broken.
After all it only took how long for the gun to actually develop into the weapon it is today? 400+ years?
Which is why I find it HILARIOUS that Golarion has had guns for thousands of years.
These are all good points, but my half-orc sorcerer has cast burning hands on your history books.
LOL yea, it's clear they're trying to make 'movie muskets' but not outshine magic. That's a tough act. I still don't know if I like they direction they went though, and think they could have gotten balance while still retain the cool by going closer to the facts.
Think Danial Day Lewis as Hawkeye in Last of the Mohicans, or various pirate movies. You never see them reload, because the process is so awkward, rather they're always pullling out a spare already loaded gun, or going to melee after the shot. I'd have prefered a gun with an impresive range and damage for a single well aimed shot (even making them like composite bows where you could add your strength mods by increasing the powder charge), but a horrable reload time.
Priates did actually have bandoliers of multiple flintlock pistols in order to compensate for the reload time and approximate the rate of fire a revolver or cartrage carbine later gave. That amounts to the same cost element and attacks per round, just handeled in a different way more accurate to the concept
I'd much rather have seen the balance go in that direction than guns that disregard armor at close range, reload at unbelievable rates, and shoot platinum pieces.
First attempt at a playtest, but I suppose I have to start somehwere. Here we have it - 10 level 1 warriors vs. a CR 9 Tyrannosaurus Rex. First of course, is the fluffy backstory.
** spoiler omitted **
** spoiler omitted **...
Um...how is your T-Rex making multiple AoO's without Combat Reflexes?
He shoulda died man.
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First attempt at a playtest, but I suppose I have to start somehwere. Here we have it - 10 level 1 warriors vs. a CR 9 Tyrannosaurus Rex. First of course, is the fluffy backstory.
** spoiler omitted **
** spoiler omitted **...
Um...how is your T-Rex making multiple AoO's without Combat Reflexes?
He shoulda died man.
The Rex only makes one AoO per round.
If you are sniping you may make one attack and then remain hidden. A potion of invisibility will break on the first attack, you would need greater invis and they don't make potions of that.
My summoner disagrees. His party mates greatly enjoy his potions of greater invisibility.
The Rex only makes one AoO per round.First attempt at a playtest, but I suppose I have to start somehwere. Here we have it - 10 level 1 warriors vs. a CR 9 Tyrannosaurus Rex. First of course, is the fluffy backstory.
** spoiler omitted **
** spoiler omitted **...
Um...how is your T-Rex making multiple AoO's without Combat Reflexes?
He shoulda died man.
Looked to me like he killed three guys in one round towards the end. Perhaps I misread.
The Rex only makes one AoO per round.First attempt at a playtest, but I suppose I have to start somehwere. Here we have it - 10 level 1 warriors vs. a CR 9 Tyrannosaurus Rex. First of course, is the fluffy backstory.
** spoiler omitted **
** spoiler omitted **...
Um...how is your T-Rex making multiple AoO's without Combat Reflexes?
He shoulda died man.
AND felt confident enough to break for tea in round 5. :)
If you are sniping you may make one attack and then remain hidden. A potion of invisibility will break on the first attack, you would need greater invis and they don't make potions of that.My summoner disagrees. His party mates greatly enjoy his potions of greater invisibility.Potions only go up to level 3 spells. Summoners are unique in the level they get their spells, and are thus full of cheatery that's all. Cheatery I say!
In all seriousness, though, you can't buy them in the DMG nor can you usually acquire them in a game, unless you happen to play with a potion-crafting summoner, which isn't very common. I missed this corner case, but the argument still stands.
Corner case? It's 1/12 of all potential potion makers!
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Being flatfooted or being denied dexterity doesn't end mid round. The original post with math is in the other thread.
I am glad you agree it is broken.
I don't, actually, that was sarcasm. I apologize that it didn't make it through the intarwebs fully. And you are correct, you cannot lose the flat-footed condition midround. However, I am also correct in how invisibility works, I just didn't say it very well.
First, the invisibility spell says: 1) that it renders the target invisible, and 2) that it breaks "if the subject attacks any creature". Being invisible means "An invisible creature gains a +2 bonus on attack rolls against sighted opponents, and ignores its opponents' Dexterity bonuses to AC (if any)". So no one is flat-footed at any time, the foe the invisible person is attacking just loses their Dex to AC, which is not the same thing. Once the invisibility breaks, which it does on the first attack, the foe regains their Dex to AC and is no longer a valid target for being sneak attacked. Them's the rules, much to all rogues' dismay.
All this is sort of irrelevant in some ways. My 3.5 era 15th level dual-dagger wielding rogue did an average of 250 points of damage per round with her +1 wounding dagger and +1 wounding sacred dagger, if you counted the con damage done as damage. My druid friend did about 140 per round as our tank, the wizard did 250+ per round, and the ranger did about 250 a round to his favored enemies. At high levels, you can get crazy damage numbers, and that's OK. The monsters hit back really hard too. Even if your numbers are totally correct (and I don't think they are), I'm still not seeing "broken".
"The rogue's attack deals extra damage anytime her target would be denied a Dexterity bonus to AC "
http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/combat-feats/blind-fight-combat
"Regular attack roll modifiers for invisible attackers trying to hit you apply, and you lose your Dexterity bonus to AC. The speed reduction for darkness and poor visibility also applies."
Correct. Then the invis wears off because you attacked, and they no longer have lost their Dex to AC. So you get the SA for the first attack (while invisible) and for no additional attacks thereafter because you are no longer invisible.
Also not terribly relevant, as 230 points of damage a round at level 16 isn't broken.
Greater Invisibility doesn't...
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Correct. Then the invis wears off because you attacked, and they no longer have lost their Dex to AC. So you get the SA for the first attack (while invisible) and for no additional attacks thereafter because you are no longer invisible.Also not terribly relevant, as 230 points of damage a round at level 16 isn't broken.
The following round. You get the bonus in the round you attack. To quote you upthread "And you are correct, you cannot lose the flat-footed condition midround."
And it's 227.5 before you add any enhancments to the weapon, not counting any damage other than the weapon, point blank, and sneak attack.
Average hit points for a CR 16 creature is 240.
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Except the spell has a 3 ray max built in.The purpose of metamagic is to bypass such limits. The caveat with Intensified Spell is that you have to have the levels to bypass the limits. I don't see it as being any different than the feat allowing a 15th level caster to use a 15 die fireball (even though that spell has a 10 die limit "built in").
However, this doesn't really have anything to do with whether or not guns can be broken. I agree that more needs to be looked at than just the guns themselves, or the gunslinger class. How they interact when other classes handle them is just as important, if not more so.
No class should be more dangerous with a gun than a guy called a "gunslinger" except in very limited circumstances.
It all depends on how you define damage dice, which is the argument in the other thread I don't want to get into either...
And I agree on the second point even more so :)
holy explosive thread batman!
After all it only took how long for the gun to actually develop into the weapon it is today? 400+ years?Which is why I find it HILARIOUS that Golarion has had guns for thousands of years.
Not at all.
The question becomes why develop firearms?
This is a case where as long as magic works, it works better, longer, and easier than developing the firearm technology. If you are leaving the one place magic doesn't work then you are better off finding some magic of your own to use than to drag along a weapon that very well could kill you and isn't that useful besides.
The Alkenstar region is rather isolated, doesn't seem to be the place that would get many immigrants and has all the wonders and horrors of the magical world around it working against it. It's taken this long just for them to establish themselves enough to feel safe against the ghosts, vampires, liches, and things waiting to kill them right outside their gates especially without magic to help them.
And these people have been working on numerous other projects in addition to developing guns -- means of stopping ghosts and other incorporeals, walls that death worms can't simply stomp through, means of transporting water (as opposed to simply creating it), and so on -- with a very limited population that must be protected at all times.
And not just from each other and the natural threats we know (including drought, disease, and wild animals) but also dragons, dire creatures, undead, and more that we haven't had to deal with.
Did you miss the "before you add any enhancements " prt. And did you note even a +w enhancement effectively adds 6 more damage. And the fact it didn't include crits or taking feats or rogue talents. Or that it is ranged...
Not at all -- but still not anything that couldn't already be done, and you are assuming a lot if you are assuming sneak attack will be going off on ranged attacks on a regular basis.
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Not at all -- but still not anything that couldn't already be done, and you are assuming a lot if you are assuming sneak attack will be going off on ranged attacks on a regular basis.
Did you miss the "before you add any enhancements " prt. And did you note even a +w enhancement effectively adds 6 more damage. And the fact it didn't include crits or taking feats or rogue talents. Or that it is ranged...
Don't need it on a regular basis when you are doing enough damage to drop the average CR equal opponent you'll be facing.
Also, you should rebuild your camel guy as a cavalier with order of the sword. You can add the mounts strength to the charge, while also getting the cavalier charge bonuses.
Not at all -- but still not anything that couldn't already be done, and you are assuming a lot if you are assuming sneak attack will be going off on ranged attacks on a regular basis.
Did you miss the "before you add any enhancements " prt. And did you note even a +w enhancement effectively adds 6 more damage. And the fact it didn't include crits or taking feats or rogue talents. Or that it is ranged...Don't need it on a regular basis when you are doing enough damage to drop the average CR equal opponent you'll be facing.
Also, you should rebuild your camel guy as a cavalier with order of the sword. You can add the mounts strength to the charge, while also getting the cavalier charge bonuses.
He is order of the sword iirc -- it's been a while but I'm sure I relied on order of the sword for that, the free feat, and the bonus to save throws, for a single cavalier not tied to a party (such as in society play) order of the sword is the best choice for a mounted cavalier.
You state that you don't always need sneak attack when you can drop an average monster of CR = APL -- but it's exactly that sneak attack damage that lets you get to where you can drop the average monster of CR = APL...
without it your damage is crap. So you can't say "Oh I don't need it" right after you say "But look at all the damage a rogue does with touch attack and sneak attack!"
Your DPR without sneak attack on that rogue is pathetic -- and you need a reliable means of actually getting the sneak attack to do the damage you claim.
Finally you ended with the cop out of "oh yeah this guy isn't complete"
as if that is some argument against anyone pointing out that he stinks at dealing damage (which he does for that level: Case in point archer fighter at that level can drop a balor in 2 rounds or less) -- so either finish the build and show off how "overpowered" he is or stop saying he is -- because to date he isn't even on the charts for power at that level yet.
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He is order of the sword iirc -- it's been a while but I'm sure I relied on order of the sword for that, the free feat, and the bonus to save throws, for a single cavalier not tied to a party (such as in society play) order of the sword is the best choice for a mounted cavalier.You state that you don't always need sneak attack when you can drop an average monster of CR = APL -- but it's exactly that sneak attack damage that lets you get to where you can drop the average monster of CR = APL...
without it your damage is crap. So you can't say "Oh I don't need it" right after you say "But look at all the damage a rogue does with touch attack and sneak attack!"
Your DPR without sneak attack on that rogue is pathetic -- and you need a reliable means of actually getting the sneak attack to do the damage you claim.
Finally you ended with the cop out of "oh yeah this guy isn't complete"
as if that is some argument against anyone pointing out that he stinks at dealing damage (which he does for that level: Case in point archer fighter at that level can drop a balor in 2 rounds or less) -- so either finish the build and show off how "overpowered" he is or stop saying he is -- because to date he isn't even on the charts for power at that level yet.
Potion of invisibility, or just making the stealth check since, you know, he's a rogue. Minor magic to major magic rogue talent for vanish also works. On the round he makes the attack he does all the damage.
He isn't complete because I got to ridiculous damage without having to even fill in all the abilities, enhancements and feats. When I saw how much damage it did relative to the hit points of equal CR I shook my head and said "broken".
Feel free to complete him, I felt like 195 was plenty. 227.5 now that someone threw on boots of haste.
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I think he may be referring to opponents being Flat-Footed before they act. If that's the case, then yeah, you could pump out a good bit of damage as a mid-high level Rogue with a bunch of feats dedicated towards guns. The character still doesn't seem to be pumping out damage very well after his initial burst. Yeah, against a dragon it's nice, but what about a group of 6 or so enemies?
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Correct. Then the invis wears off because you attacked, and they no longer have lost their Dex to AC. So you get the SA for the first attack (while invisible) and for no additional attacks thereafter because you are no longer invisible.Also not terribly relevant, as 230 points of damage a round at level 16 isn't broken.
The following round. You get the bonus in the round you attack. To quote you upthread "And you are correct, you cannot lose the flat-footed condition midround."
And it's 227.5 before you add any enhancments to the weapon, not counting any damage other than the weapon, point blank, and sneak attack.
Average hit points for a CR 16 creature is 240.
Actually, now that I look for it, where does it say you can't lose flat-footed or Dex loss to AC mid-round? I can't find it anywhere, and my interpretation of invisibility has been the standard RAW one since I've been playing. Please point me towards rules text.
With invisibility, you only get one attack (the first one) that provides sneak attack damage. Every other attack is no longer against a foe who has lost their Dex bonus to AC.
Now that your given reading of the rule isn't convenient, you change your mind.
Fortunately, the rule is
http://www.d20pfsrd.com/gamemastering/conditions#TOC-Flat-Footed
So you are flatfooted until you act, not until you are acted upon.
You were wrong about the rule. It happens. No biggie.
Potion of invisibility, or just making the stealth check since, you know, he's a rogue. Minor magic to major magic rogue talent for vanish also works. On the round he makes the attack he does all the damage.He isn't complete because I got to ridiculous damage without having to even fill in all the abilities, enhancements and feats. When I saw how much damage it did relative to the hit points of equal CR I shook my head and said "broken".
Feel free to complete him, I felt like 195 was plenty. 227.5 now that someone threw on boots of haste.
Ok, now we have some more issues:
1. potions of invisibility (or vanish) or stealth checks aren't going to get you but a single sneak attack -- not damage galore.
2. Without a complete build and possibly and explanation on how he's going to get the damage you claim he is you don't have proof -- you have a statement. Currently your statement lacks proof -- your proof is incomplete and shot full of more holes than the proverbial gold dragon scenario.
3. You say that it all works, but it clearly isn't since the bits and pieces you are throwing out don't work together as you are stating they will, and when I point out that you aren't going to get "all that damage" you don't provide evidence of how you are.
***********************
To boot the builds I have done here at home (and I have done them) aren't getting anywhere near where you are claiming without sneak attack, and even with it the rogue still isn't clearing the fighters damage output for 16th level -- heck he's not even reaching the ranger's, paladin's or barbarian's damage output at level 16.
So if you want me to believe that the damage you are presenting is "too far out there" you need to show a full build that reinforces your statement then compare it to the damage potentials that are already possible at those levels for other classes not using firearms.
Currently you have one "almost" build that might once in a while possibly do almost as much damage as any of the full BAB classes can do at the same level with little effort.
As such you are saying that anything that at level 16 can do over 195 damage when "almost" complete is obviously broken for the game and needs taken out.
Which means the fighter, ranger, paladin, barbarian, cavalier, and most spell casters even need to be removed from the game since at level 16 they can manage at least 200 points of damage a round.
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I think he may be referring to opponents being Flat-Footed before they act. If that's the case, then yeah, you could pump out a good bit of damage as a mid-high level Rogue with a bunch of feats dedicated towards guns. The character still doesn't seem to be pumping out damage very well after his initial burst. Yeah, against a dragon it's nice, but what about a group of 6 or so enemies?
It doesn't work as well, but it's still pumping out that much damage in a round.
Then vanish, reposition, do it again.
It's wrong to think of guns as unbalanced. They're supposed to be, its why we're not using bows and swords anymore, the argument that complains that all weapons must have the same average strength is stupid. Guns hit touch AC because bullets go through armor though with the pistol and musket I could easily see the penalty for range increments beyond the first being triple because of the amazingly s@+#ty accuracy of early firearms.
Why is any of this a bad thing anyway? So the world of Golarion is changing, things can change in fantasy worlds just as easily as they can change in the real world. Personally I would be thrilled to have the 2nd edition of pathfinder set in more of a Victorian Era than a Medieval Era.
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Potion of invisibility, or just making the stealth check since, you know, he's a rogue. Minor magic to major magic rogue talent for vanish also works. On the round he makes the attack he does all the damage.He isn't complete because I got to ridiculous damage without having to even fill in all the abilities, enhancements and feats. When I saw how much damage it did relative to the hit points of equal CR I shook my head and said "broken".
Feel free to complete him, I felt like 195 was plenty. 227.5 now that someone threw on boots of haste.
Ok, now we have some more issues:
1. potions of invisibility (or vanish) or stealth checks aren't going to get you but a single sneak attack -- not damage galore.
2. Without a complete build and possibly and explanation on how he's going to get the damage you claim he is you don't have proof -- you have a statement. Currently your statement lacks proof -- your proof is incomplete and shot full of more holes than the proverbial gold dragon scenario.
3. You say that it all works, but it clearly isn't since the bits and pieces you are throwing out don't work together as you are stating they will, and when I point out that you aren't going to get "all that damage" you don't provide evidence of how you are.
1d6 (3.5) + 1 (point blank) + sneak attack damage (however many D6 by whatever level you choose) X number of attack, vs how likely you are to hit on each one.
Given how low touch attacks are, and how high average rogue DEX is (the ranged attack variable) you are generally hitting on anything but a 1 most of the time. As I broke down in detail in the previous thread.
Take the two weapon fighting chain (two-weapon, improved, greater) as you are allowed based on your BAB, and mix in the boots of haste and there you go along with the reload feat chain (some of which is filled by rogue talents) and there you go for number of attacks. You can get to rapid reload very quickly, or just go with a pepperbox or revolver.
Yes you need the sneak attack. And yes you can have it three times a day with two rogue talents.
If you want more, add in Bleeding Attack, or powerful sneak, or just, you know, add enhancements to the guns.
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It's wrong to think of guns as unbalanced. They're supposed to be, its why we're not using bows and swords anymore, the argument that complains that all weapons must have the same average strength is stupid. Guns hit touch AC because bullets go through armor though with the pistol and musket I could easily see the penalty for range increments beyond the first being triple because of the amazingly s&&~ty accuracy of early firearms.
Why is any of this a bad thing anyway? So the world of Golarion is changing, things can change in fantasy worlds just as easily as they can change in the real world. Personally I would be thrilled to have the 2nd edition of pathfinder set in more of a Victorian Era than a Medieval Era.
Modern guns are unbalanced. Medieval guns weren't.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_the_firearm
I posted a really good History Channel special on this earlier in another thread, but I can't find it.
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I think he may be referring to opponents being Flat-Footed before they act. If that's the case, then yeah, you could pump out a good bit of damage as a mid-high level Rogue with a bunch of feats dedicated towards guns. The character still doesn't seem to be pumping out damage very well after his initial burst. Yeah, against a dragon it's nice, but what about a group of 6 or so enemies?It doesn't work as well, but it's still pumping out that much damage in a round.
Then vanish, reposition, do it again.
Well, there are a couple of things to remember. One is that guns are loud. The other is that, if you're at a level where popping yourself invisible and repeating this process is reasonable, then I can totally see putting out this much damage.
Ironically enough, you'd be better off as a Ninja, since you get invisibility many more times per day, and... well, Ninja is another subject all together.
Really, I'm glad Rogues rock with guns. I think it fits the archetype really well, and it gives them a great amount of damage where they used to be laughed at. All in all, I'm happy with that much damage.
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You are correct when the character is flat footed but not invisible. Invisiblity can be ended midround.
Correct. Then the invis wears off because you attacked, and they no longer have lost their Dex to AC. So you get the SA for the first attack (while invisible) and for no additional attacks thereafter because you are no longer invisible.Also not terribly relevant, as 230 points of damage a round at level 16 isn't broken.
The following round. You get the bonus in the round you attack. To quote you upthread "And you are correct, you cannot lose the flat-footed condition midround."
And it's 227.5 before you add any enhancments to the weapon, not counting any damage other than the weapon, point blank, and sneak attack.
Average hit points for a CR 16 creature is 240.
Actually, now that I look for it, where does it say you can't lose flat-footed or Dex loss to AC mid-round? I can't find it anywhere, and my interpretation of invisibility has been the standard RAW one since I've been playing. Please point me towards rules text.
With invisibility, you only get one attack (the first one) that provides sneak attack damage. Every other attack is no longer against a foe who has lost their Dex bonus to AC.
Now that your given reading of the rule isn't convenient, you change your mind.
Fortunately, the rule is
http://www.d20pfsrd.com/gamemastering/conditions#TOC-Flat-Footed
So you are flatfooted until you act, not until you are acted upon.
You were wrong about the rule. It happens. No biggie.
It says this where?
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Invisibility ends when you attack. Unfortunately, this means that, as part of a full-attack, the first attack breaks invisibility. The rest are resolved as normal, which means that, barring flat-footed status, they are considered normal attacks, not sneak attacks.
(I'm sure Bradden will come up with the rule :P Yeah, I'm lazy)
It says this where?
You are correct when the character is flat footed but not invisible. Invisiblity can be ended midround.
In the spell:
3.5 and PF version are the same in that an attack ends it.SRD:
If the subject attacks directly, however, it immediately becomes visible along with all its gear.
Notice immediately is used.
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Invisibility ends when you attack. Unfortunately, this means that, as part of a full-attack, the first attack breaks invisibility. The rest are resolved as normal, which means that, barring flat-footed status, they are considered normal attacks, not sneak attacks.
(I'm sure Bradden will come up with the rule :P Yeah, I'm lazy)
If that turns out to be the rule, it seems really dumb and counter-intuitive to the concept of a sneak attack.
But if that is the rule, then the sneak attack issue isn't nearly as problematic.
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Invisibility ends when you attack. Unfortunately, this means that, as part of a full-attack, the first attack breaks invisibility. The rest are resolved as normal, which means that, barring flat-footed status, they are considered normal attacks, not sneak attacks.
(I'm sure Bradden will come up with the rule :P Yeah, I'm lazy)
If that turns out to be the rule, it seems really dumb and counter-intuitive to the concept of a sneak attack.
But if that is the rule, then the sneak attack issue isn't nearly as problematic.
Nah. That's what Greater Invisibility is for. It's just much harder to come by for a pure Rogue.
And yeah, I house-ruled that, for a while, you got sneak attacks on all attacks, even when popping out of Invisibility. It's still a good way to up Rogue damage, though.
Between potions of invisibility ending on your first (successful?) attack and potions of great invisibility costing a minimum of 1,050gp each, I don't think I'm going to be too concerned about balance.
Between potions of invisibility ending on your first (successful?) attack and potions of great invisibility costing a minimum of 1,050gp each, I don't think I'm going to be too concerned about balance.
I do, however, like the idea of a Half-Orc gun-toting Rogue (or better yet, Ninja) and insisting on adventuring without lights.
1d6 (3.5) + 1 (point blank) + sneak attack damage (however many D6 by whatever level you choose) X number of attack, vs how likely you are to hit on each one.Given how low touch attacks are, and how high average rogue DEX is (the ranged attack variable) you are generally hitting on anything but a 1 most of the time. As I broke down in detail in the previous thread.
Take the two weapon fighting chain (two-weapon, improved, greater) as you are allowed based on your BAB, and mix in the boots of haste and there you go along with the reload feat chain (some of which is filled by rogue talents) and there you go for number of attacks. You can get to rapid reload very...
Again 2 rogue talents get you it twice a day with only one sneak attack per round each time you use it, and those rogue talents are still actions in and of themselves.
So you have a one hit wonder that doesn't even last a round, that has to eat 8 feats to really have a chance of working to be clear a human rogue that converts a talent into a combat feat, another into weapon focus, and takes a feat as an advanced talent will eat them all up with the following:
Two weapon fighting, improved two weapon fighting, greater two weapon fighting, point blank shot, rapid shot, rapid reload, precise shot, improved precise shot, deadly aim, weapon focus
Only a human rogue that spends all of his feats and two rogue talents and an advance talent can do this at level 16 while remaining full rogue.
Still not proving your point here...
Vanish will get you one sneak attack on the round you attack from invisibility -- and it still has to hit -- two weapon fighting at level 16 as a rogue -- even one that maxed out his dex (at which point he is sitting on a 32) with deadly aim and a +5 weapon is going to have some issues:
+20/+20/+20/+15/+15/+10/+10 without haste...
with haste:
+21/+21/+21/+21/+16/+16/+11/+11
Now the average touch AC means that *normally* he would hit with each swing -- but now we have a problem -- if he is using a pistol and alchemical cartridges to be able to reload fast enough to take all his shots then he has a 10% failure rate on each shot and if a misfire happens he's lost all shots from that point forward.
The fighter of the same level with ordinary weaponry will only have a 5% failure rate, and that won't cost him the rest of his shots.
The rogue is looking at the following damage output:
1d8+5+8+1= 1d8+14
If he doesn't misfire (and with 8 shots at a 10% chance he will more often then he critically hits) and each shot lands then he'll have:
8d8+112 damage in that round averaging at 148 damage... which will cost him 96gp without sneak attack.
By the way of the monsters in the CR 16 range 4 of the 21 have an ability to see the invisible, all have blind sense, and about 1/3 have a constant ability that provides them with concealment.
Now IF you manage to find away to always get your sneak attack dice added onto your attacks for a round you'll get 224 more damage for a total of 336 points of damage.
Which isn't bad for someone spending every feat he has, plus two rogue talents plus an advance talent and has sunk significant gold into finding away to get sneak attack and in the weapons themselves (at 50k a pop out of your 315,000 gp you've spent a third of your wealth on two guns).
However the fighter still does better, with less.
It says this where?
The spell ends if the subject attacks any creature. For purposes of this spell, an attack includes any spell targeting a foe or whose area or effect includes a foe. Exactly who is a foe depends on the invisible character's perceptions. Actions directed at unattended objects do not break the spell. Causing harm indirectly is not an attack. Thus, an invisible being can open doors, talk, eat, climb stairs, summon monsters and have them attack, cut the ropes holding a rope bridge while enemies are on the bridge, remotely trigger traps, open a portcullis to release attack dogs, and so forth. If the subject attacks directly, however, it immediately becomes visible along with all its gear.
Right there in the spell description.
Please note this is if you use the spell invisibility or have a spell-like ability of invisibility -- some creatures are naturally invisible and they do not become visible when attacking.
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1d6 (3.5) + 1 (point blank) + sneak attack damage (however many D6 by whatever level you choose) X number of attack, vs how likely you are to hit on each one.Given how low touch attacks are, and how high average rogue DEX is (the ranged attack variable) you are generally hitting on anything but a 1 most of the time. As I broke down in detail in the previous thread.
Take the two weapon fighting chain (two-weapon, improved, greater) as you are allowed based on your BAB, and mix in the boots of haste and there you go along with the reload feat chain (some of which is filled by rogue talents) and there you go for number of attacks. You can get to rapid reload very...
Again 2 rogue talents get you it twice a day with only one sneak attack per round each time you use it, and those rogue talents are still actions in and of themselves.
So you have a one hit wonder that doesn't even last a round, that has to eat 8 feats to really have a chance of working to be clear a human rogue that converts a talent into a combat feat, another into weapon focus, and takes a feat as an advanced talent will eat them all up with the following:
Two weapon fighting, improved two weapon fighting, greater two weapon fighting, point blank shot, rapid shot, rapid reload, precise shot, improved precise shot, deadly aim, weapon focusOnly a human rogue that spends all of his feats and two rogue talents and an advance talent can do this at level 16 while remaining full rogue.
Still not proving your point here...
Vanish will get you one sneak attack on the round you attack from invisibility -- and it still has to hit -- two weapon fighting at level 16 as a rogue -- even one that maxed out his dex (at which point he is sitting on a 32) with deadly aim and a +5 weapon is going to have some issues:
+20/+20/+20/+15/+15/+10/+10 without haste...
with haste:
+21/+21/+21/+21/+16/+16/+11/+11Now the average touch AC means that...
Couple questions.
1. Why do I need improved precise shot?
2. Where are you getting 50k for the weapon?
3. Weapon Focus is a rogue talent.
4. Snap shot is nice in the surprise round, which is where I want to be able to do my full attacks.
5. I can take another feat as an advanced rogue talent.
6. Deadly Aim doesn't apply to the touch attack, which is why I think they intended to exclude sneak attack as well.
So if I win initiative and I am within 30 feet of the enemy to start, I average 336 damage.
As I said above, I didn't realize only the first attack after invisibility could be sneak, which changes the equation.
It is still somewhat problematic that if I win initiative withing 30 feet I can kill pretty much anything.
Couple questions.
1. Why do I need improved precise shot?
2. Where are you getting 50k for the weapon?
3. Weapon Focus is a rogue talent.
4. Snap shot is nice in the surprise round, which is where I want to be able to do my full attacks.
5. I can take another feat as an advanced rogue talent.
6. Deadly Aim doesn't apply to the touch attack, which is why I think they intended to exclude sneak attack as well.So if I win initiative and I am within 30 feet of the enemy to start, I average 336 damage.
As I said above, I didn't realize only the first attack after invisibility could be sneak, which changes the equation.
It is still somewhat problematic that if I win initiative withing 30 feet I can kill pretty much anything
1. Most monsters are still of such a size that if they get in melee they are likely to gain cover from your friends. Since you aren't likely to move (as you want to get a full attack instead of just a standard) improved precise shot will get you clear of the penalties to hit from cover (a +4 to the monster's AC in this case) which could kill your last several attacks.
2. 50k per weapon is for the +5 weapons (which I specifically called out in the write up before the math for the attacks) -- without those +5 weapons all the attack bonuses I presented are reduced by 5 and you lose 5 points of damage per attack, in addition to having to contend with DR. I didn't skimp in my mechanics because the rogue needs those bonuses to really see him through.
3. I accounted for that: Rogue talent 1 (combat feat) Rogue talent 2 (weapon focus) and a feat taken as an advanced talent -- you have no more left to gain feats from.
4. Several things are wrong with this scenario:
1. You are not guaranteed an action in the surprise round
2. You do not get a full attack in the surprise round.
3. You can still be beaten on initiative in the surprise round.
4. You are relying on the surprise round? Really?
5. Each talent may only be taken once, even advanced talents, as I already specifically pointed out that we had taken a feat as an advanced talent already, no you may not take another one.
6. Really Ciretose if you are going to argue that guns are 'broken' you really really should read the rules involved:
When firing upon a target within a firearm?s first range increment, the attack resolves against the target?s touch AC, but is not considered a touch attack for the purposes of feats such as Deadly Aim. At higher range increments, the attack resolves normally (including taking the normal cumulative ?2 penalty for each full-range increment). Unlike other projectile weapons, most firearms have a maximum range of five range increments
Relying on initiative to get you your full attack with sneak attack is iffy at best (one monster does have uncanny dodge at this level too).
Which isn't bad for someone spending every feat he has, plus two rogue talents plus an advance talent and has sunk significant gold into finding away to get sneak attack and in the weapons themselves (at 50k a pop out of your 315,000 gp you've spent a third of your wealth on two guns).
That's about where I am, too.
It's not bad for what it is, but by level 16 the wheels have truly come off the game and there's all kinds of broken-tough looking things to be found everywhere -- and most of them don't fall apart so badly in so many easy ways, albiet ones that a lot of normal monsters or opponents wouldn't have.
I mean, two levels of barbarian on a random monster and this guy's just done. That makes it not even really register to me on the scale of things like 16 wizard with spell perfection -- heck, I think you could make a blaster sorcerer to pour out that kind of damage in a round at that level while burning a lot less feats.
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It is still somewhat problematic that if I win initiative withing 30 feet I can kill pretty much anything.
Except a barbarian or rogue... or anyone else with uncanny dodge. If you put most of your talents into this and the majority of your feats in the hope that a situation arises where you can be this awesome, go for it.
I don't see this being a problem in actual play. This build would not be all that great until later levels, and even then it's pretty much par for the course.
The fact you can make a great damage build doesn't prove that touch attack firearms break the game. I enjoy theoretically breaking the game via character builds. I have no desire to employ firearms as they currently exist. None. I know this isn't the strongest argument in the world, but if guns were so incredible, I'd have seen a gun in the dozens and dozens of tables I've seen played in PFS since the release. People might be using them, but not in the droves you'd get with a must have.
Now that's PFS... lower level. I think we all agree guns are not great there. Maybe if I started a campaign at 15th level someone would do this. Still, no one is bringing a gun to the Kingmaker we're setting up yet.
I have a feeling nothing will change.
Let gun wielders have their fun. There are worse things a PC could bring to the table.
That makes it not even really register to me on the scale of things like 16 wizard with spell perfection -- heck, I think you could make a blaster sorcerer to pour out that kind of damage in a round at that level while burning a lot less feats.
Can, Have, and Will do so again ;D