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***This post will contain spoilers for the PFS mod Decline of Glory***
I ran Decline of Glory this past weekend, and it ran fairly smoothly as far as combat goes, but because of the actions of one player, a few of the others werent having fun.
The player in question uses a Conjuration focused Wizard, and dominated the entire mod, but Im not sure if I should have said anything to him about it.
First Encounter
My reaction: Slightly amused
Second Encounter
Third Encounter
Fourth Encounter
My reaction: Slight annoyance
Fifth Encounter
Wizard: How many of them are there?
Me: A lot.
Wizard: Like how many? *Asking with a 'we can take them sort of attitude* Like 30?
Me: ...Yes...
I knew if I didnt make it sound like there was a crapton of these guys, then he would force the entire group out into the streets to fight the Taldans then. Normally, that would have been fine, but I also knew it would provide no real challenge to the party.
They enter the distillery, and I try to make them understand their need to defend the buiilding and baracarde the doors. The wizard declares he will handle the northern-most door by himself, and doesnt bother to put anything in front of it. Once the bad guys make their way in, (his door first, obviously, since he has nothing in front of it, opposed to the vats that lined the West wall being in front of the other two doors) he begins casting and finished right as they open, summoning a mob of small earth elementals. By the time the rest of the guys make it in and are being attacked by the ghouls, his swarm is done with his door, so they flood into the other room.
By the end of it, he had about 9 of them out, having lost none as the ghouls are obviously not going to eat the rocks, and the other PCs got to make a total of 3 attacks each. Maybe.
Opposed to the 4-8 Taldans and 4ish ghouls, I ended up making it about 15 guards and about 10 ghouls, so provide some sort of challenege, whcih was still easily overcome.
My reaction by the end: pretty furious that I had to make the encounter that much more difficult by doubling or tripling the bad guys just to provide some sort of challenge, which still resulted in the rest of the part being bored out of their minds with the situation.
I dont want to hamper his fun and tell him he cant summon creatures where he wants or how he wants, or place the Web where he wants, as those are his choices, but the method of HOW he does it makes everyone else mad cause it hampers their fun.
Any advice on how to allow the others some fun while still allowing him to have his own fun, while not having to incredibly increase the bad guys in the encounter?
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Some people just don't really care about making sure other people get a chance to contribute in combats. I started a similar thread in the 4e forums back when I regularly played LFR. Asking people to hold back so that others can have their time to shine just isn't realistic most of the time.
If the wizard in question is a regular have a sit down with him and voice your concerns. If not, count your blessings and hope he doesn't show up again.
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Well if that's the case you owe it to him to be honest and frank.
A friend of mine that I play regularly with has a similar problem. He designs characters to steal the show and then gets frustrated when I ask him to reel it back. It's an ongoing problem.
My highest leveled character (this one) is pretty effective and can cripple most encounters by himself. That said, I go out of my way to make sure that doesn't happen.
I do stuff like:
*Spend move actions to use tertiary/flavor abilities (which breaks up my full attack).
*Pin/Disarm/Whatever enemies instead of dropping them as quickly as possible.
*Don't immediately kill or go after the biggest badass in the encounter. Focus on the mooks and minions instead. Let someone else get the glory for going toe-to-toe with the boss/biggest threat.
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Remember that Web needs opposing anchors. There probably arent any in the first encounter.
And you really shouldn't alter the encounters in the scenarios.
Other than that, you are right that you should talk with the guy. If he is the local GM, he should understand the importance of everyone having fun.
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I had forgotten about the Web spell needing places to anchor it, so that would have solved it the first time. I'll make sure to remember that next time, lol.
Also, I wasnt adding bad guys to try to nerf him, per se, but to ensure he didnt kill everything in the final encounter before anyone else could act, which is what I figured would end up happening.
I dont make it a habit of changing encounters up, and try to play them by the book as much as possible. Most of the time, its fine, but occasionally the fights leave me with a feeling of 'that wasnt worth the time it took to run' cause the bad guys are so horribly underwhelming in some of the fights(Not limited to this mod).
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And you really shouldn't alter the encounters in the scenarios.
I dont make it a habit of changing encounters up, and try to play them by the book as much as possible. Most of the time, its fine, but occasionally the fights leave me with a feeling of 'that wasnt worth the time it took to run' cause the bad guys are so horribly underwhelming in some of the fights(Not limited to this mod).
Politely disagree, Neil. :(
I doubt that I'm in the minority of actual PFS GMs, but definitely in the *vocal* minority when I say that I'm very much *FOR* trusting gameday coordinators to empower their judges to change encounters as appropriate for their playgroups. (I think *most* PFS judges alter scenarios.)
You and your HeadGM probably know your players and play styles much more than Paizo and the rest of us, and you guys can decide for yourselves if you want to add extra challenge (without adding extra XP or PA) to your modules.
At some future time, we'll need to have a community-wide discussion about all this, however, since the current system of "don't ask, don't tell" is pretty silly. I would have have people changing modules appropriately and within appropriate guidelines than doing so willy nilly.
I also don't advocate changing encounters to nerf anybody (but rather change them to give people an equal chance to shine), but will happily adjust to provide some challenge when appropriate.
There are many solutions to the issue you presented, godsDMit, and the ones mentioned by others are worth pursuing as well.
-Pain
EDIT: Cleared up some bad verbiage. :(
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Have you asked this player why he feels the need to dominate every encounter? Is it just to be a jerk or maybe he feels like hes tired of getting owned by encounters? Not all of us can handle being turned into a chicken round 1 of the final combat(not that has ever happened to me). :) Maybe he feels like if he one shots the encounters, he wont get one shotted by the encounter. I'm not justifying this player, I'm just saying to not demonize him either. Everyone has a reason for their play style. Find out what his is.
***This post will contain spoilers for the PFS mod Decline of Glory***
I ran Decline of Glory this past weekend, and it ran fairly smoothly as far as combat goes, but because of the actions of one player, a few of the others werent having fun.
The player in question uses a Conjuration focused Wizard, and dominated the entire mod, but Im not sure if I should have said anything to him about it.
Fourth Encounter-If the monsters get past the melee dudes and kill the wizard he does not get to use that as an excuse to keep his character so I still think being tactical is the way to go.
Fifth Encounter-I don't spam summons. That just slows the game down to a crawl, and it takes too much of the time and spotlight up. Tactically it is smart, but for purposes of fun he should have done things differently.
In short I think you have to ensure your character lives, but you can do so while not blocking other people's fun at times. The first 2 example I saw as acts of self preservation. The last one was a player who does not understand the social value of the game, IRL.
PS:I just want the goal to be completed when I play, but I do understand the desire to use your character's abilities. I would ask him to use different spells so everyone can have fun.
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I doubt that I'm in the minority of actual PFS GMs, but definitely in the *vocal* minority when I say that I'm very much *FOR* trusting gameday coordinators to empower their judges to change encounters as appropriate for their playgroups. (I think *most* PFS judges alter scenarios.)
You and your HeadGM probably know your players and play styles much more than Paizo and the rest of us, and you guys can decide for yourselves if you want to add extra challenge (without adding extra XP or PA) to your modules.
100% agree with this. I and my judges have free rein to adjust the scenarios to give the tables a good time. Of course, I have a good enough group of core players and GM's that if one of the GM's is going overboard, I will hear about it and we will have a talk and they will either not change the mods or not judge.
I feel that a mod with no challenge or where your guy doesn't get to do his "thang" is NOT fun. If by changing stuff a little, everyone gets their turn to shine, then no harm done. As long as everyone has a good time, then the reason everyone came out to play is accomplished. I am not going to have people be bored or go away feeling cheated somehow just so I can run the mod exactly the way it is written.
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100% agree with this. I and my judges have free rein to adjust the scenarios to give the tables a good time. Of course, I have a good enough group of core players and GM's that if one of the GM's is going overboard, I will hear about it and we will have a talk and they will either not change the mods or not judge.
I feel that a mod with no challenge or where your guy doesn't get to do his "thang" is NOT fun. If by changing stuff a little, everyone gets their turn to shine, then no harm done. As long as everyone has a good time, then the reason everyone came out to play is accomplished. I am not going to have people be bored or go away feeling cheated somehow just so I can run the mod exactly the way it is written.
Congrats Dave!!!!
Did I miss the Announcement that we got a VC down here?...
I dont want to hamper his fun and tell him he cant summon creatures where he wants or how he wants, or place the Web where he wants, as those are his choices, but the method of HOW he does it makes everyone else mad cause it hampers their fun.
If a wizard casting Web is dominating the game to such an extent then I question the rest of the party's competence. I play melee characters some of the time, and if I see those things coming at me I'll ask the Wizard to slow them down and funnel them in. If the Wizard can stop them in their tracks then I'll pull out my ranged weapons instead. In fact I'd be annoyed if the Wizard *didn't* do that if he had the spells available. I sure as hell wouldn't complain about it!
If the melee characters just want to get straight into the fight every single time then the enemies aren't scary enough. The wizard should hold back and let one or more of the front line characters die as a result of their casual disregard for danger, so that next time they might appreciate him more...
I'd happily play a melee character alongside his wizard, doing exactly what he did. I'll just switch into bodyguard mode, or sweeper. I only stop having fun when other character's tactics are so counter-productive that we'd be better off without them. I've been faced with that on occasion.
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I'd happily play a melee character alongside his wizard, doing exactly what he did. I'll just switch into bodyguard mode, or sweeper. I only stop having fun when other character's tactics are so counter-productive that we'd be better off without them. I've been faced with that on occasion.
This. The only thing I'd change (as a conjuration wizard myself) is that I try to cast the web spell where at least one or two creatures are on the last square of the web so that the melees can run up and decapitate them while they're stuck in the web. That's not always a possibility, though.
As a DM, however, I'd make sure to remember that web provides penalties against attacks that pass through more than five feet of web. After the fifth or sixth round of constant missing the wizard will likely get annoyed and just dismiss the web all together.
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My two cents: I think the issue isn't so much that the wizard is too powerful -- I just found "Decline of Glory" to be a very easy module. None of the players in our party were particularly overwhelming and we were still left with an "Is that all there is?" feeling afterwards.
+1
The nature of Organized Play is that the writers can't assume a balanced party, with all the traditional roles filled. In my case, this was my third mod, but the first mod in which we had any kind of healer.
So, the writers have to rein themselves in a bit, compared to a traditional home campaign, in which you know the group has got their heads together to cover all their bases with characters optimised out the wazoo.
For a later mod, with the same PC, we had to form a table with mixed levels, and the group took a vote on whether to play the higher or lower tier. The vote was cast and the group deferred to the lower tier to protect the newer PCs. In hindsight, I wish I had pushed to play up to the next tier, as I made it through without losing a single hp.
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Venture-Captain, Missouri—Cape Girardeau
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I'd agree that martial characters that don't bother to bring along a proper golf-bag of different weapons for different situations aren't playing a particularly well thought out character.
This is very true, especially at higher tiers. GP shouldn't be an issue for this purpose unless they were a 1st level character.
I'd agree that the web spells sound fine. The wizard is doing his "controller" job and assisting the party. The spell doesn't hurt the targets, it just makes it easy for everyone to hurt them (assuming they brought missile weapons).
This is sound tactics... but sounds rather unimaginative on the part of the player. A wizard/summoner should have a "utility belt" approach to encounters, with a range of spells ready to use for many occasions.
I'd agree that spamming summoned creatures is just bad form, both in terms of time constraints on PFS games, but also that after a certain point the number of summons goes from being helpful to obnoxious.
This bothers me more than the other points... especially since he is the "head GM" of the area. The game isn't fun for other players if they never have a chance to play. Pure and simple. In his role, he should be encouraging and engaging other players in his tactics, not showing how much more clever he is than them.
I'd agree that the module was pretty easy, and the end, while it looked like a fantastic and dynamic battle, ended up fizzling out.
And, yes, this can be a "fast burn" scenario depending on party composition... part of the downside of organized play. Sometimes they are a super challenge; sometimes not so much.
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I'd agree that martial characters that don't bother to bring along a proper golf-bag of different weapons for different situations aren't playing a particularly well thought out character.
As I said in the first post, the wizard specifically placed the web to make it so the enemies had multiple squares to pass through before they could get out of the web. In the first fight, yes, the melee characters could have used reach weapons, but I dont think they thought of those, and I didnt say anything. In the second fight, he had it placed so the web had about 15-20ft in front of them before where the ghouls were. So reach weapons are out. now, the melee centric characters are reduced to ranged weapons vs bad guys that the wizard has just given an AC boost to by putting web all over the place. Add in the fact that we did this on 4-5 subtier, with a several players still playing characters from levels 1-3, means they arent hitting very often, and the entire excerise gets annoying for everyone involved.
I'd agree that the web spells sound fine. The wizard is doing his "controller" job and assisting the party. The spell doesn't hurt the targets, it just makes it easy for everyone to hurt them (assuming they brought missile weapons).
It wasnt that he was casting web. It was the fact that he was deliberately casting web in a way that prevented several of the other members of the party to not be effective in more than one combat. Do I think he realized he was taking away from their fun? No. Do I think he will care when I tell him about it? Hopefully.
I'd agree that spamming summoned creatures is just bad form, both in terms of time constraints on PFS games, but also that after a certain point the number of summons goes from being helpful to obnoxious.
Bingo.
I'd agree that the module was pretty easy, and the end, while it looked like a fantastic and dynamic battle, ended up fizziling out.
Yep.
If the melee characters just want to get straight into the fight every single time then the enemies aren't scary enough. The wizard should hold back and let one or more of the front line characters die as a result of their casual disregard for danger, so that next time they might appreciate him more...
If the difference in the combat is the wizard casting Web or hordes of enemies between life and death for the rest of the party, then 1) your playing a mod I havent cause the baddies in most mods are laughable for their tier, or 2) The Dm is doing something wrong, or 3) the DM is pruposely going out of their way to kill PCs when they shouldnt.
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...the baddies in most mods are laughable for their tier.IMNSHO, I find this statement comes from players who are A) "rules proficient" (be they optimizers, power gamers, tacticians, etc), and B) generally playing under GM's who are not A).
In my groups most of us are at least two of the three you mentioned on A. This includes both players and DMs alike, and it's extremely rare that low and mid level mods pose a challenge. There's not much a DM can do when all the mooks he's given have less hit points than the minimum damage dished out by the party.
If it weren't for a table of first level characters mis-prioritizing alchemist's fire and acid flasks last week (they were too low level to afford all the basic supplies) in a mod with swarms I couldn't even say "extremely rare". I've actually sat at tables where we refused to allow ourselves to be healed just to make the mods interesting.
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IMNSHO, I find this statement comes from players who are A) "rules proficient" (be they optimizers, power gamers, tacticians, etc), and B) generally playing under GM's who are not A).
1.) IMNSHO?
2.) So what is your suggestion then? All characters must be badly designed as the encounters that they face for it to provide a challenge? I try not to powergame too much, though I feel a bit of it is essential to being completely useless in any given situation, but at the same time, if Im smart enough to come up with a combo (assuming Im a regular human with an average Int score of 10 or 11), then what is to say my character (with an Int of 10 or 11) couldnt think of the same combination for their training?
Also, +1 to Demoyn.
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2.) So what is your suggestion then? All characters must be badly designed as the encounters that they face for it to provide a challenge?
I don't think it's a matter of calling non-optimal characters 'badly designed'. Anyone can take a few hours to wring every last point of damage out of their fighter, or make their bard or rogue capable of pulling off every skill check that may cross them, but there are no real life parallels to these characters, and I think it makes them excessively unrealistic. Characters are supposed to have flaws. It adds to the flavor and makes success with them far more gratifying. Without the fear of knowing that your character might not survive, it just feels uninspired and dull, IMHO.
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2.) So what is your suggestion then? All characters must be badly designed as the encounters that they face for it to provide a challenge? I try not to powergame too much, though I feel a bit of it is essential to being completely useless in any given situation, but at the same time, if Im smart enough to come up with a combo (assuming Im a regular human with an average Int score of 10 or 11), then what is to say my character (with an Int of 10 or 11) couldnt think of the same combination for their training?
I'm not making a suggestion, and if I did, I wouldn't make one as ridiculous the one you stated. The point I was making is that if you feel that all encounters are "laughable," then you're obviously a well-versed player and it's likely that your GM's haven't been. And before you feel offended and the desire to stick up for your GM's, don't. Some of the very best GM's out there are great because they entertain, regardless if their NPC's are laughable in combat.
2.) So what is your suggestion then? All characters must be badly designed as the encounters that they face for it to provide a challenge? I try not to powergame too much, though I feel a bit of it is essential to being completely useless in any given situation, but at the same time, if Im smart enough to come up with a combo (assuming Im a regular human with an average Int score of 10 or 11), then what is to say my character (with an Int of 10 or 11) couldnt think of the same combination for their training?
Once you start getting into the tier 7+ modules (or even some tier 5+ modules), they start getting more challenging. IMO, of course.
I'd suggest the Heresy of Man series if you're looking for a challenge.I've already played the series. We didn't sleepwalk through it, but we were also never in any serious danger. The Heresy of Man series is what an AVERAGE mod should be challenge wise, in my opinion.
Do you play in a home game? Because that's a way different situation than playing at a con or with a random group of characters.
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Do you play in a home game? Because that's a way different situation than playing at a con or with a random group of characters.I'd suggest the Heresy of Man series if you're looking for a challenge.I've already played the series. We didn't sleepwalk through it, but we were also never in any serious danger. The Heresy of Man series is what an AVERAGE mod should be challenge wise, in my opinion.
I played part I and II at Milcon. I was on my wizard and my wife was on her barbarian. There were two people at the table that we'd played with before but not often (conventions only). The other two people were new to us.
We played part III at Owlcon. That time it was my wizard, my wife's barbarian, a cleric who we've played with occasionally, and a friend of mine on a level 7 pregen rogue (who we hadn't played with in over 10 years).
Again, I think the challenge level on these mods is fine. My issue is that these mods shouldn't be the hardest mods in the game, they should be typical of the challenge for society play.
In Living Greyhawk we would run 30 tables and have 15 people die on average. In Pathfinder Society we run 30 tables and have 1 person die total. In my opinion the best challenge level would be somewhere in the middle. Enough deaths that you feel challenged but not so many that you feel hopeless.
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In Living Greyhawk we would run 30 tables and have 15 people die on average. In Pathfinder Society we run 30 tables and have 1 person die total. In my opinion the best challenge level would be somewhere in the middle. Enough deaths that you feel challenged but not so many that you feel hopeless.
Havind a PFS character die, especially if you spent a lot of time playing him to a high level, flies in the face of "Ensuring fun is had by all".
If a single character is monopolizing the spotlight in combat, he should get what he so richly deserves : enemies focusing on him and only him and using any and all ability to weaken him, even if it involves "metagaming" on the GM's part (such as enemies ignoring another character who just wounded them just so they can get a shot at the Uber-character).
Also, this way, it should help the other characters succeed more as the playing field is suddenly tilted in their favor.
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I'd agree that the web spells sound fine. The wizard is doing his "controller" job and assisting the party. The spell doesn't hurt the targets, it just makes it easy for everyone to hurt them (assuming they brought missile weapons).
This is sound tactics... but sounds rather unimaginative on the part of the player. A wizard/summoner should have a "utility belt" approach to encounters, with a range of spells ready to use for many occasions.
Most posters seem to have an issue with the wiz's tactics. Either that it is "unimaginative" or hurts the melee'ers. While the former might be true, if it is a proven tactic that works, why would repeating it, be a bad thing?
In the latter, I see this as an advantage. As some have said, the wiz is doing his job of battlefield control. Sure the melee'ers may have to wait a few rounds as the creatures move through the web, but they have the freedom to decide where and how to meet the threat. My melee'er would be near the edge of the web, with a readied action to attack when something emerges. The rogue might take the opportunity to use stealth to gain a much needed damage boost on his first attack. The cleric can position right behind the melee'ers to provide healing. And in the specific example above, he could channel into the web, repeatedly, for good results. The support PC's could ready to throw alchemist's Fire, Acid Flasks, etc. This is also a good time for some buffing. Most of use wish we had 1-2 rounds at the outset of every battle to drink a potion of Bull's Strength or Enlarge Person. The casters might want to down an enhancement potion to increase the save DC's of their spells.
Once the party is in positioned, the wiz can blast away with a Burning Hands or simply set the web ablaze with a torch. The baddies take some fire damage (equivalent to a 1st level fireball) and then they are free to charge into melee with the well-prepared PC's. I see the wiz's actions as a huge win for the PC's and no different than the rogue always positioning himself to gain a flank. Each PC must use their strengths to ensure group survivability. It's up to the players to discuss those tactics and figure out how to mesh them together.
I don't see this action as monopolizing the spot-light, unless the other players stand around and let it be a one-on-one contest. I would fully endorse my party's wiz to drop a Web at the outset of nearly every battle if he can win initiative against our enemies. YMMV
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I'm not making a suggestion, and if I did, I wouldn't make one as ridiculous the one you stated. The point I was making is that if you feel that all encounters are "laughable," then you're obviously a well-versed player and it's likely that your GM's haven't been. And before you feel offended and the desire to stick up for your GM's, don't. Some of the very best GM's out there are great because they entertain, regardless if their NPC's are laughable in combat.
I know you werent suggesting that, I was bein sarcastic ;)
Anyway, yes, I feel Im well versed, and think most of the DMs ive played under are as well, and completely agree with your 'great because they entertain' point.
Just cause the story is supposed to be entertaining doesnt help all scenarios though. If your supposed to be facing off against a tough group of hombres, and you rotflstomp your way through the mod, it can take away from the story, no matter how good of a storyteller the DM is. Ive noticed this in several scenarios, though it seems to be more frequent in the older mods than the newer ones, likely cause the class-level-possessing bad guys arent up to snuff compared to PF heroes.
I'd like to ask if there were two diametrically points for the web spell to connect. Web doesn't exactly work in an open field...
This was pointed out earlier in the thread, and I responded by saying it shouldnt have worked in the first combat, but I didnt think of it at the time. In the second combat, they were in a cave with opposing walls and a floor, so it was a sound tactic.
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Add in the fact that we did this on 4-5 subtier, with a several players still playing characters from levels 1-3, means they arent hitting very often, and the entire excerise gets annoying for everyone involved.So you have a wizard that has to pull more than his own weight, and then he does, so you complain?
Would everyone have been happy with him if he had 'held back' and then one of the level 1s had gotten paralyzed and/or killed?
I've fallen for this in a game where I was higher level than the rest of the PCs. I didn't want to steal the spotlight so I held back on things. Then one of the PCs got into a position I couldn't help him out of and died. Had I 'not tried to give him his fun' he wouldn't have had his PC die. It was my fault.
I don't see anything wrong with what the wizard did as far as you've described it. He shouldn't let low level melee guys get into melee with ghouls if they can be taken out without a chance to inflict harm. Why on earth would his wizard do otherwise? Why on earth would the other PCs want their wizard to subject them to potential harm if its unneeded?
-James
I think you should go back and read the entire thread instead of the couple posts that deal only with the issue of web placement and ghouls.
The issue is not with him doing more than his share, the issue is his share keeping other people from doing ANYTHING effectively.
Personally, whatever character Im playing, Id rather get to roll dice throughout the scenario, and have some fun, even if that gives me a chance to get poisoned/ paralyzed/killed, opposed to letting a situation like the one I posted about in the OP occur and having to sit on my hands the whole 4 hours.
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Add in the fact that we did this on 4-5 subtier, with a several players still playing characters from levels 1-3, means they arent hitting very often, and the entire excerise gets annoying for everyone involved.
James makes a good point - this situation is very tough for the higher level character, especially a controller wizard. He may very well have thought he was enabling the rest of the group to safely/effectively take on the threat (and ghouls are terrifying).
In defense of Decline of Glory, it was the first scenario I played in (at PaizoCon '09) and was quite difficult. No one died, but something like 2 or 3 out of 5 dropped in the final battle, including me [Thanks a lot Taig!]
Also...
Congrats Dave!!!!
Did I miss the Announcement that we got a VC down here?...
Yeah! When did this happen - congratulations!