In Lovecraft's stories those things exist but the normal, sane people aren't aware of them. The ones that are tend to be the already crazy cultists or hermits or vagabonds. They are neither pervasive nor common knowledge like in Pathfinder so their revelation is more of a big deal.
It is not an issue of player knowledge versus character knowledge. I am not talking about my players here but in-character rationalization. They're fine with the idea if it were consistent throughout the AP. It's just the idea of suddenly being affected when their characters (read: in character) have faced equally bad things before without the same problem. The insanity sidebar on page 29 even says as much but that, for some reason, these critters are "another thing entirely". It fails to explain how or why, so that falls to the DM to explain. Hence my initial quandary as to how I will convey that.
Also, Conan is nice and all and I'm a real fan... but it really is an entirely different flavor of the mythos.
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That's an issue of accumulation. Things build to a point for some yet they never get to reach their breaking points. Others are not so fortunate. This adventure just happens to be that potential breaking point. If the characters can make it through this, they'll be better able to withstand what's to come. There aren't enough adventures out there that push the characters to their mental breaking points, that leave them questioning reality and their place in it. Goblins, orcs, dragons and even demons shouldn't regularly test a PC's sanity as the character has a reasonable expectation of encountering such things in the course of their adventuring career. Mi-go, star spawn, dark young and colours out of space are almost never encountered and when they are, they should potentially leave some indelible mark on the character in question as these things define the whole "things man were not meant to know" trope.
And yes, I understand that Conan is a different flavor of the mythos. Until I came to the forums many years ago, I had no clue that there was anything involving HPL's work in there at all. I just took the stories at face value. But knowing that even Conan has had encounters with the mythos enabled me to better deal with the content in a fantasy setting when it appears. I've played CoC and hated it (the hopelessness of it all does not appeal to me at all). I've run Cthulhutech and enjoyed it immensely (wait, you mean humanity actually has a chance?). I'm not a fan of the sanity mechanic in rpgs (especially if that mechanic is one that is constantly in place throughout the campaign), but sometimes they have their place.
I'm putting personal opinions and preferences on what should constitute "sanity breaking" and when aside, that could go on for days between two people.
Instead, the very simple answer here is that Paizo wanted to include a sanity mechanic in the "Lovecrafty" module and didn't bother to really explain the sore thumb. Why should they? Players can suspend disbelief (well, most players). They tried to sneak an orange into the apple basket. That's it. No real deeper reason. It works so long as you don't think too hard about it.
Your second paragraph explains a lot, though. HPL was all about the hopelessness. You seem to be more of a Derleth person which is nothing wrong but is, as I said, a flavor very different from what HPL wrote and intended.
An actual question related to the module: The mayor of Illmarsh has an entry about "Gaster Lucas", a local businessman who is affiliated with the Whispering Way. The only way to find out about him before the meeting with the mayor is that the PC's stumble upon his having a room at the local inn... which is a very, very tenuous connection to make for most people, IMHO.
Did I overlook something which makes the PC's more likely to investigate this guy, before they find his corpse in the local temple?
Ah, thanks, I overlooked that particular entry. That helped a lot, thank you!
Clanartus is still about, he just ambushed/killed my groups Paladin. Almost got the Sorcerer, too. ^^
I feel like I am missing something. On page 53 area G6 there is a Gug Savant, a variant Gug. Is there somewhere that lists what that gives the gug? Is it just that it gives sanity loss? The tactics talk about casting invisibility which a normal Gug cannot do.
I knew it had to be something simple I overlooked, thanks!
Slugspawn clarification questions.
The entry on slugspawn says the difficulty of recognizing a slugspawn as a threat is a DC 16 Perception check, but that they can be harder to find if they're hidden.
That being the case, what is the Stealth bonus of a slugspawn?
If the victim fails to notice a slugspawn and it pounces without triggering a Reflex save, does the victim now know of its existance? I'd assume that it'd be tough not to recognize a giant slug-worm burrowing into their flesh.
Slugspawn are Tiny, right?
Since they don't have armor classes, hit points, or saving throws, is anyone trying to do something to a noticed slugspawn is automatically successful? (except mind affecting effects.)
The funniest thing about the Slugspawn is that they can only be removed with with magic like Remove Disease after they have successfully attached themselves to a victims brain. Which means that they are classified as a... disease?
In any case, what happened this Tuesday was that one of the Slugspawn successfully infected the Paladin in your group. Since you can get rid of them via Remove Disease, I ruled that the Slugspawn attached itself to the Paladins brain, but died of all the happy and pure feelings the Paladin had. Mad for quite a visual with the Slugspawn just rolling out of the Paladins mouth after it died.
The funniest thing about the Slugspawn is that they can only be removed with with magic like Remove Disease after they have successfully attached themselves to a victims brain. Which means that they are classified as a... disease?
For me, the problem with this is understanding how the High Priest of Dagon managed to stay infected with a slug-spawn. Cure Disease is something he has access to at his level, and I'd expect it to be the first thing someone'd think about if they were infected by a parasite. The module kind of waves it away with him not really understanding what he's been afflicted with and not really considering it a threat, but I fear the players might think it a bit of a plot-hole.
I'm considering changing the weakness of the slug-spawn so it isn't quite so odd he didn't think of it. On the other hand, if I make it too counter-intuitive, if the PCs get infected, it might be a death sentence pure and simple.
Sorry for double-posting, but is it odd to anyone else that the Moit of Shub-Niggurath is immune to mind affecting effects and the larval form eats mind affecting effects, rendering its host immune to them, but the actual Dark Young of Shub-Niggurath has no such immunity. Was it an oversight or intentional?
I'm probably going to render it immune when my players confront it, partly because it's thematic and partly because it's a bit anti-climactic for the big-end-boss monster to be ended by a single Hold Monster or the like.
He has a +13 will save, that's nothing to scoff at.
Or fudge the rolls.
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He has a +13 will save, that's nothing to scoff at.
Or fudge the rolls.
Well, if I'm going to fudge rolls, I might as well just decide it doesn't work ahead of time.
I have a player who's running a telepath psion. He has Mind Crush, which can reach a DC of 22 with the right amount of power points and reduces creatures to -1 and dying on a failed save.
Major Mythos monsters like the Dark Young are supposed to crush mortal minds, not the other way around.
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So, looking over the module.
It seems like Insanity is something that can hit very fast and very often.
Am I missing something, because it seems like it's going to obliterate the entire party very fast.
I mean, 6d6 Sanity damage from seeing the big baddie out the window? That's an average of 18, no character could take that! If the whole team sees it, that's an instant TPK.
I hope I'm misinterpreting something, but would love clarification.
It's a DC 15 Will save to avoid the harmful effects.
Is it just me or is the phase door from F3 to F22 kinda easy to miss?? I assume I am missing something here.
I'm not looking at the map but if you are talking about what I think yours talking about one of the slug spawn escapes from the upstairs incident and leaves a slug spawn trail right to it.
True. But the slug slipping into a crack still seems to not greatly imply a phase door. I guess they need to discover the impression in the stone and link that to the amulet?
Thanks for the feedback Rob. It really is awesome that you take your time out to answer these questions.
This "problem" is caused by my game style. I am converting this AP into 4th edition and I have turned down the "high fantasy" control a few notches. So my guys are less likely to be on the lookout for teleport stones. I'll solve this by having the stone slide and having scrape marks on the floor. This more mundane thing fits my world flavor better.
I would just like to say that this part of the AP is really exceptionally written and just a very fun read! Thanks for your work Rob, and of course Greg!
Anybody ran the submarine Vs. gutaki yet. We'll be there next session and I can't say I'm looking forward to it. I hate running air and underwater battles, and this one adds a vehicle and an underwater spellcaster into the mix. A heads up on how it went in your group or some tips would be appreciated. Thanks
I'm confused about Albor Voltario, so hopefully someone can help me. As soon as he reaches 0 hit points, his head explodes and his neck bursts forth a spawning canker. It has stats and even a "During Combat" section on page 36. But under the Development section, it says that the canker breaks apart into eight slugspwans.
So does that mean that the PCs don't fight the canker because it breaks apart? Or do the PCs have to fight the canker and worry about the slugspawns?
I interpret it to mean that there are three stages to this battle. First stage is against a Human Cleric, then at 0 HP the opponent transforms and it's a battle against a Spawning Canker, then at 0 HP the opponent transforms again and now it's against 8 Slugspawns. Point is, you never face any of the stages at the same time, they happen one after the other.
But I'm not sure, to be honest.
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This is correct.I'm confused about Albor Voltario, so hopefully someone can help me. As soon as he reaches 0 hit points, his head explodes and his neck bursts forth a spawning canker. It has stats and even a "During Combat" section on page 36. But under the Development section, it says that the canker breaks apart into eight slugspwans.
So does that mean that the PCs don't fight the canker because it breaks apart? Or do the PCs have to fight the canker and worry about the slugspawns?
I interpret it to mean that there are three stages to this battle. First stage is against a Human Cleric, then at 0 HP the opponent transforms and it's a battle against a Spawning Canker, then at 0 HP the opponent transforms again and now it's against 8 Slugspawns. Point is, you never face any of the stages at the same time, they happen one after the other.
But I'm not sure, to be honest.
Sweet, three-stage boss fight! I'll be introducing my players to the concept by judiciously adding a multiplying T-Rex skeleton to Feldgrau. :)
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Anybody ran the submarine Vs. gutaki yet. We'll be there next session and I can't say I'm looking forward to it. I hate running air and underwater battles, and this one adds a vehicle and an underwater spellcaster into the mix. A heads up on how it went in your group or some tips would be appreciated. Thanks
I'd like to Bump this question. I'm quite close to the encounter myself and am curious how others have handled it as well.
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Unfortunately we didn't get to this encounter... But here's how I would run it.
Unless one of the PCs is maintaining a lookout have the gutaki summon it's allies and then use its blood cloud ability as the suprise round of combat and ROLL INITIATIVE!
If the PCs don't cast any water breathing spells, use the helm of underwater action, or leave the confines of the diving bell use the electric eels to shock the bell causing 1d6 electricity damage to everyone inside (reflex DC 15 negates) or have the sharks attack the bell making a single CMB roll (+2 for each shark involved beyond the 1st) vs each PCs CMD to bull rush or reposition them into the water.
Have the Gutaki tentacle drag PCs out using its better swim speed to move away and use its spells.
Just make sure you tell your PCs to read the rules on fighting underwater and have them make a cheat sheet on a 3x5 card that shows their stats when fighting underwater (adjusted attack rolls/damage, swim check scores, modified for any spells or items they have like the helm, rings of swimming, etc).
--Vrock the Boat
I'm still on Trial of the Beast, but I'm considering giving the PCs more information about the Seasage Effigy -- fed to them by Adivion Adrissant, who is visiting Lepidstadt. I figure AA might want to mislead the players by making them think the unfolding plot has to do with the Aboleths or the Dark Tapestry, rather than the Whispering Way. But I'm a little confused about the relationship between the Seasage Effigy, the Aboleths, and the Gods of the Dark Tapestry.
The Seasage Effigy is a sacred relic of the skum, who were created by the Aboleths. However, despite its Cthulhuistic appearance, it allows one to commune with the demon lord Dagon, who doesn't seem to have any connection to the Aboleths or to the Gods of the Dark Tapestry. For some reason the relic also allows one to commune with Gods of the Great Tapestry ("Great Old Ones" or "Outer Gods"). Why not allow communication with the Aboleths instead of the Outer Gods? What is the relationship between the Aboleths and the Gods of the Dark Tapestry? I've seen references suggesting that the Aboleths revere the Outer Gods but that they are also enemies of the Outer Gods.
I admit my knowledge of Cthulhu mythos is very weak. I probably don't need to have this all figured out. I guess Adrissant could tell the PCs that his research shows the Seasage Effigy is a pre-Ustalavic artifact connected to the worship of the demon lord Dagon. He could also tell the players that his research suggested some connection between the ancient cults of dagon and both the Aboleths and the Gods of the Dark Tapestry, although the connections and relationships are unclear.
I don't think any of that gives away too much before Wake of the Watcher. I think they already think expect some Cthulhu elements to be coming and it makes sense that Adrissant might want to mislead the players by getting them to think there is an Aboleth plot behind the current events.
Any thoughts?
I had Dr. Crowl, the museum keeper, simply tell the PCs what the Sea Sage Effigy does, with the preface "yes, it's dangerous - to the user."
That in of itself has been enough to have the players wracking their brains as to how the hell Dagon fits into all of this.
The Dark Tapestry article at the end of Wake of the Watcher will give you a decent enough rundown of the Mythos, at least as they impact on Golarian.
Aboleths that find religion tend to follow the Outer Gods, who are as alien as they are. I would expect aboleths to consider most demon lords to be beneath them, but the Outer Gods are sufficiently abstract that an aboleth respects them.
After the Starfall the surviving aboleths abandoned most of their creations to fend for themselves. This resulted in things like the Avalon Bay skum turning to Dagon, demon lord of the deep sea, as their patron and protector.
The Cult of Dagon being behind everything might be an easier red herring than the aboleths. Since the Cult of Dagon really is in the region and the aboleths aren't.
But this red herring will probably get tossed as soon as the Count relates his encounter with Vrood to the party. So keep that in mind.
Very helpful, Zhangar!
I know that any red herring would be short lived, but I want to have another encounter with Adivion in Lepidstadt and I want him to appear to be helpful so that it will have more of an impact when the party comes to suspect him (probably when they find out that Adivion gave Vrood the invite to Ascansor). I'm also planning on having him give the party a brooch +2 versus saves against sanity damage, which will actually work as promised but which will also have a hidden homing beacon so Adivion can track the party, at least until the party figures it out (or will it break something in a later module if he can track the party?). I haven't actually figured out how a homing beacon would work rules-wise, but... [the GM waves his hands around].
As for Dagon, etc., your comments are clarifying. So the Skum worship Dagon and perhaps also the Outer Gods (I guess based on ancient Kellid practices), which is why the icon is attuned to Dagon and the Outer Gods. But the Skum don't really have anything to do with the Aboleths anymore. So I think what I'll do is omit reference to the Aboleths and just focus on the Dagon/Outer Gods angle.
Creative Director
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Yes indeed seriously.
Paizo is REALLY generous, in my opinion, with what we allow folks to use on websites and the like via the Community Use policy... but we didn't just idly create that policy. We created it to protect us AND to protect those who use it.
We don't mind if GMs create things like this for their home games, but those creations have to remain private. Once they're public (such as is the case when links are provided here), they need to comply with the Community Use policy.
We DO appreciate that you've spent a lot of money on Paizo products, but one of the things that allows us to keep doing these products involves protecting our intellectual property.
AKA: It's not us undermining the community in this case as much as it is folks who ignore the requirements of the (very open) Community Use policy.
Yes indeed seriously.
Paizo is REALLY generous, in my opinion, with what we allow folks to use on websites and the like via the Community Use policy... but we didn't just idly create that policy. We created it to protect us AND to protect those who use it.
We don't mind if GMs create things like this for their home games, but those creations have to remain private. Once they're public (such as is the case when links are provided here), they need to comply with the Community Use policy.
We DO appreciate that you've spent a lot of money on Paizo products, but one of the things that allows us to keep doing these products involves protecting our intellectual property.
AKA: It's not us undermining the community in this case as much as it is folks who ignore the requirements of the (very open) Community Use policy.
I dont get it. The GM References where published more then a year ago and I remember a comment from you about that they were good. So whats the change now?
Also you guys are great in pointing to your policies, but not very good a pointing out what has offended you in my work....so it isnt really VERY helpful.
So HOW did I infringe your IP?
I'm rather upset to be honest. I send a PM to Chris Lambertz asking whats the problem...ZERO response...
I spend quite a bit on money on Pazio as I like the concept however this is not the right way to deal with problems.
I object you your AKA comment.
BTW: I took the all the material off my webpage.
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Creative Director
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Yes indeed seriously.
Paizo is REALLY generous, in my opinion, with what we allow folks to use on websites and the like via the Community Use policy... but we didn't just idly create that policy. We created it to protect us AND to protect those who use it.
We don't mind if GMs create things like this for their home games, but those creations have to remain private. Once they're public (such as is the case when links are provided here), they need to comply with the Community Use policy.
We DO appreciate that you've spent a lot of money on Paizo products, but one of the things that allows us to keep doing these products involves protecting our intellectual property.
AKA: It's not us undermining the community in this case as much as it is folks who ignore the requirements of the (very open) Community Use policy.
I dont get it. The GM References where published more then a year ago and I remember a comment from you about that they were good. So whats the change now?
Also you guys are great in pointing to your policies, but not very good a pointing out what has offended you in my work....so it isnt really VERY helpful.
So HOW did I infringe your IP?
I'm rather upset to be honest. I send a PM to Chris Lambertz asking whats the problem...ZERO response...
I spend quite a bit on money on Pazio as I like the concept however this is not the right way to deal with problems.I object you your AKA comment.
BTW: I took the all the material off my webpage.
Whether or not your webpage infringed Paizo's Intellectual Property, I can't say. I never saw the page before you took the material down. My post was not aimed at your page, but at Victor Zagic's post. I was trying to explain to him why we do things like this. Not trying to justify why we did it, since I wasn't involved in removing your post at all.
If I commented that they were good a year ago, but then someone else decided that they're not... that's something you'll need to take up with Customer Service. Keeping in mind that I'm not the Paizo legal department and as such am not the one who, in the end, gets to decide what does and doesn't break the Community Use license. Which means folks shouldn't ask me if something they're doing on a website is covered or not, and which means I shouldn't answer those questions in the first place.
In ANY case, for situations like this, your best bet is ALWAYS to contact Customer Service. Other folks around these parts aren't always able to watch every thread they've touched, or indeed, notice when private messages show up for them immediately. They might not be at their desk or haven't checked the website, for example, so assuming that someone doesn't reply to a post or a PM immediately, or even within a few hours, does not imply that they're ignoring you.
Very helpful, Zhangar!
I know that any red herring would be short lived, but I want to have another encounter with Adivion in Lepidstadt and I want him to appear to be helpful so that it will have more of an impact when the party comes to suspect him (probably when they find out that Adivion gave Vrood the invite to Ascansor). I'm also planning on having him give the party a brooch +2 versus saves against sanity damage, which will actually work as promised but which will also have a hidden homing beacon so Adivion can track the party, at least until the party figures it out (or will it break something in a later module if he can track the party?). I haven't actually figured out how a homing beacon would work rules-wise, but... [the GM waves his hands around].
As for Dagon, etc., your comments are clarifying. So the Skum worship Dagon and perhaps also the Outer Gods (I guess based on ancient Kellid practices), which is why the icon is attuned to Dagon and the Outer Gods. But the Skum don't really have anything to do with the Aboleths anymore. So I think what I'll do is omit reference to the Aboleths and just focus on the Dagon/Outer Gods angle.
IIRC there is a cursed item that gives you a penalty to will saves vs scrying. It's something of inescapable location.
Ran the battle vs Albor last night and it was great! Players also loved it. When Albor's head exploded, which the players first and almost rightfully thought were only due to the 65pt critical revolver bullet from the gestalt gunslinger/cleric, they got really surprised when the tentacles burst out! :)
Question regarding the slugspawns: I've seen in McCreary's post they should be treated as a hazard, but when the players have four visible ones in front of them, do they need to do more than just say "I step on the crawling leeches" when they've made their reflex saves?
If someone announced that they were stepping on a slugspawn, I'd make them roll the saving throw again. The leeches are slow, but are about 2 feet long and will keep trying to infest people who stay in reach.
I didn't treat them as the size they were on the images in the AP as then they should be big enough to have relevant stats and probably wouldn't require a perception check to see them as abnormal.
I had the slugs be the size of normal slugs (with too many teeth) while lurking, and then extend their full length while lunging for people. Think hideous, slimy springs that bore into people. They're weird little monsters; it's fine to have them casually break physics.
I had the slugs be the size of normal slugs (with too many teeth) while lurking, and then extend their full length while lunging for people. Think hideous, slimy springs that bore into people. They're weird little monsters; it's fine to have them casually break physics.
Ah, good idea. Will use that should they encounter more. Thanks!