"Stop stealing my kills!"


Gunslinger Discussion: Round 2

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I apologize for making so many topics, but I have an issue I should have brought up a lot sooner.

Before the gunslinger, it didn't matter whoever got the killing blow on a monster. Everyone was expected to work together and contribute, and getting the final blow on a monster or villain was more a matter of ego and bragging rights. However, the gunslinger has a mechanical incentive to deliver the killing blow - they get grit back. If the gunslinger is plotting away at a monster, and the fighter finishes it off with a sword swipe, the gunslinger is denied his grit, which could give rise to arguments. It also doesn't make a lot of sense for all of the characters to step back and allow the gunslinger to take the final blow on a creature - it just draws attention to grit as a metagame abstract.

I know that delivering the killing blow with a gun is supposed to be a random chance thing like scoring a critical - but if you put grit recovery in the hands of a player and give them incentive to whine if their "kills are being stolen", something that would otherwise be a non-issue, you pave the way for a lot of pettiness and table arguments.


I agree, this mechanic only encourages metagaming and should probably go. Personally I would rather let the gunslinger have wis modifier+1/2 level grit and no recharge mechanic. It's much easier to keep track of and meshes better with how most other classes uses abilities.

Dark Archive

I agree as well. Do we really need gamist fuel mechanics?


I understand your concern about metagame arguments.

Please understand that I say this as someone who comes from the (to me good old) days of individual XP where every person's kills were tracked and never had a problem.

Kills are one of the better recharge mechanic options (along with crits). They are not dependent on how generous the DM is feeling nor can be forced by the player between fights to "top off". They are also less bookkeeping overhead then a timer recharge (which also has the problem of players stalling to top off). (Don't even mention "per encounter" and the nightmare of defining what constitutes and encounter.)

The only other approach to recharge mechanics I can think of involves random rolls, which of course slows down the game due to additional rolls.

If you have any ideas on a viable yet non-abusable recharge mechanic, I'd love to hear them.


Random idea, may not be fully thought out: Maybe a successful use of intimidate to "stare down" an opponent could give you some grit to use? Perhaps it could be a move action, and you have to use it before the beginning of your next turn, and can only use the grit you gain to attack or defend against the subject of your intimidate check. I think it ties in with the "grim determination" aspect of grit.


You can have them recover at the rate of 1 per 5 minutes (or some other increment of time) of light activity.


I wouldn't worry about gaming this particular rule. It's not easy to control your damage output precisely enough to leave mobs for a gunslinger to finish off, and it's definitely disadvantageous to leave enemies alive so your pal can recharge his juice - that mob may be 3hps away from death, but he's still capable of dealing as much damage any round as the same mob with full health.


That won't stop a whiny gunslinger from complaining about kill stealing whenever you get off a lucky hit.


I can see in my head one whiny player I don't really play with anymore, and one problem player I haven't played with in years getting up in arms about this in some way.

The whiner was going to whine anyway. And the problem player was notorious for barging in and stealing everybody else's kills so he could chalk it up as a "deed."

In other words, people who are going to be annoying about this likely are already annoying, or were like to be annoying about something. So it just does not seem game-breaking to me.

Anyway, I don't game with those guys anymore. I can't see anybody in my current group metagaming this (they are strict anti-metagamers), and if somebody tried to, it would likely be quickly forgiven (if he really needed the grit and we all were okay with it this time) or slapped down (because I am the GM).


'Rixx wrote:
Random idea, may not be fully thought out: Maybe a successful use of intimidate to "stare down" an opponent could give you some grit to use? Perhaps it could be a move action you have to use it before the beginning of your next turn, and can only use it to attack or defend against the subject of your intimidate check. I think it ties in with the "grim determination" aspect of grit.

I really like this idea, it would give the gunslinger something else to do than just point and shoot (which is all he has done in my playtests, he hasn't even used grit once).


Another possible recharge mechanic - provoking attacks of opportunity.

I think it ties in with a "daring act" - shoot at the head honcho even if you're surrounded by his cronies, attempt to wrestle someone to the ground, dash by a bunch of monsters so you can get into position for that perfect shot. Doing something risky knowing that you could get smacked down for it is worthy of grit.

Might want to limit it to once per round, or only for attacks of opportunity that hit or ones that miss - a minimum hit dice requirement from the attacker might be in order, but I kind of like the idea of punching a no-name mook in the face without improved unarmed strike just to get grit back. It's the kind of ballsy thing a gunslinger might do.


That would also encourage people to do stupid things, and some don't need any more reasons.


The mechanic will only be metagamey if the GM allows it to be. The PCs aren't supposed to be aware of how much hp the enemies have, so they have to go by what the GM describes to them. The Gunslinger's job as a martial class is to do damage and kill things. It's perfectly logical to shoot to kill any enemy she sees on the verge of death.

The concept of "kill stealing" is almost archaic in a way. It's only really relevant in games that aren't teamwork oriented.


This mechanic did touch on a memory of an article I read on dissociated mechanics.

The player will try and game the system. They will try and leave one player to get the "kill shot".

The problem arises when your character's in-game actions need to be explained by in-game reasons. If it's supposed to be a random "cool" moment that gives the character that extra "luck" to pull off another Deed... then having a character go "I think this guy's almost dead, wanna finish him off gunslinger, so you can be cool later?".

Just feels.. awkward.

Crits are purely random. Roll a specific number on a die. Can't really game that around.

If the Gunslinger does something cool on purpose (the DM adjudication dependent "Daring Act" at least had that) makes sense, because the reason in-game matches the reason out of game.

Back in the first round, I suggested more proactive methods of getting Grit back. One of which, was to posture and show some element of "cool" while making an action (such as when shooting or reloading), the drawback being action economy: it takes a 1 round action to do the thing you wanted, with chance of failure (being interrupted).

It's not so much the whining or chance for abuse. I think the current rule is "playable". I just feel it breaks metagame too much (see my thoughts on the Secret Stash feat where metagame can be fine).


'Rixx wrote:
That won't stop a whiny gunslinger from complaining about kill stealing whenever you get off a lucky hit.

Whiners gonna whine. Ignore them.


Kierato wrote:
You can have them recover at the rate of 1 per 5 minutes (or some other increment of time) of light activity.

As I stated, bookkeeping overhead. Someone (aka the DM) has to track in game time minute by minute for this to work. The "light activity" helps slightly with the problem of stalling to top off, but can still result in waiting on opening the next door till the character is topped off.

'Rixx wrote:


Maybe a successful use of intimidate to "stare down" an opponent could give you some grit to use?

Not bad, but it needs a minimum HD requirement (at least 1/2 the gunslinger's) since intimidate DC is 10 + target's HD + target's Wis modifier.

'Rixx wrote:


Another possible recharge mechanic - provoking attacks of opportunity.

Might want to limit it to once per round, or only for attacks of opportunity that hit or ones that miss - a minimum hit dice requirement from the attacker might be in order, but I kind of like the idea of punching a no-name mook in the face without improved unarmed strike just to get grit back. It's the kind of ballsy thing a gunslinger might do.

Once per round if the AoO misses and the attacker is at least half your HD. That would be a good one.


Freesword wrote:

I understand your concern about metagame arguments.

Kills are one of the better recharge mechanic options (along with crits). They are not dependent on how generous the DM is feeling nor can be forced by the player between fights to "top off".

A quick idea but couldn't the gunslinger have a buddy either use a summon monster 1 spell or wand to recharge his grit supply?

Could this lead then to the party keeping both a number of CLW wands and Summon Monster 1 wands handy for in between fight recharges (probably going for a Summon monster 1 Wand crafted by a "2cd level" caster)


Nosforontu wrote:
Freesword wrote:

I understand your concern about metagame arguments.

Kills are one of the better recharge mechanic options (along with crits). They are not dependent on how generous the DM is feeling nor can be forced by the player between fights to "top off".

A quick idea but couldn't the gunslinger have a buddy either use a summon monster 1 spell or wand to recharge his grit supply?

Could this lead then to the party keeping both a number of CLW wands and Summon Monster 1 wands handy for in between fight recharges (probably going for a Summon monster 1 Wand crafted by a "2cd level" caster)

Recharging with a killing blow has to be done in the heat of combat, one could argue that a friendly controlled summon monster is in the heat of combat. Also, they have to have at least half your hit dice. Bigger wands eventually.


The gunslinger only regains grit from kills if the creature has at least half the HD of the gunslingers character level. So you would need to upgrade the level of your summons at later levels for this to work.

-ninja by Kierato


Another easy way to manage this is to just always make sure there are enough targets on the board for everybody, and arrange the terrain so that not everybody is adjacent at all times or always has easy line-of-sight.


How about this?

The gunslinger regains a point of grit whenever a creature he damaged in his most recent turn is reduced to 0 hp or less.

That way he gets the point regardless who drops it, so long as he's actively contributing.


Kierato wrote:
Nosforontu wrote:
Freesword wrote:

I understand your concern about metagame arguments.

Kills are one of the better recharge mechanic options (along with crits). They are not dependent on how generous the DM is feeling nor can be forced by the player between fights to "top off".

A quick idea but couldn't the gunslinger have a buddy either use a summon monster 1 spell or wand to recharge his grit supply?

Could this lead then to the party keeping both a number of CLW wands and Summon Monster 1 wands handy for in between fight recharges (probably going for a Summon monster 1 Wand crafted by a "2cd level" caster)

Recharging with a killing blow has to be done in the heat of combat, one could argue that a friendly controlled summon monster is in the heat of combat. Also, they have to have at least half your hit dice. Bigger wands eventually.

Also, wealth == power. You are burning wealth.

I never said it was perfect, but there are worse options. That's why I referred to it as "one of the better options".

Sovereign Court

Why are your DM's making you completely aware of the amount of hit points the monster's have left?

You shouldn't normally have access to that kind of information as a player.

Does no one use the DM's Screen anymore?


You don't need to have the exact numbers to know that something is getting hurt, or likely doesn't have much left.

In a recent game, we had done over 100 hitpoint damage to a creature encounter at level 5. It's by this point that I decided, as a virtual non-combatant, to simply try and attack this thing because my 1d6+2 could potentially bring it down, instead of trying to get out of it's reach and do something else (like cure or whatever).
I was lucky, landed the hit, and rolled max damage (8) and killed the thing. Good call on my part, and we didn't have anything from the DM that we couldn't have already known (the thing was bloody and in pain, etc).

There's often a point that the players can figure "the thing must be close to dead by now". And that's when gaming the system can happen.


Mahorfeus wrote:

The mechanic will only be metagamey if the GM allows it to be. The PCs aren't supposed to be aware of how much hp the enemies have, so they have to go by what the GM describes to them. The Gunslinger's job as a martial class is to do damage and kill things. It's perfectly logical to shoot to kill any enemy she sees on the verge of death.

The concept of "kill stealing" is almost archaic in a way. It's only really relevant in games that aren't teamwork oriented.

First of all, are there any dms that dont in some way describe (at least on request) the degree of injury of an enemy? Do monsters look identical from 100hp to 1 hp in their world? That just doesnt make sense to me. And the moment someone is described as badly wounded or near death, boom time for them to move on and leave them for the gunslinger to finish off. It already happened in a playtest, and I was not at all happy about it.

It is the gunslingers job to kill things but the goal should be to overcome the encounter as a group, not try to get individual kills. It shouldnt matter who gets the kill or not. I really think the whole recharging grit mechanic is inherently flawed. Make it like bardic music or channel energy and move on, there is no reason for the gamist recharge mechanic.

Silver Crusade

Umbral Reaver wrote:

How about this?

The gunslinger regains a point of grit whenever a creature he damaged in his most recent turn is reduced to 0 hp or less.

That way he gets the point regardless who drops it, so long as he's actively contributing.

I like this, but I'd go with just labeling the target as "defeated", because that gives the opportunity for running off bandits, working someone down until they surrender, or just capturing your opponent to turn over to the authorities.

Another alternative is to give a challenge-esque mechanic of "marked man" that gives a minor bonus (+1 attack/damage/something). Where you specify the person you're trying to defeat to get grit back from and can only mark a single target at a time with no limits to times per day. That will also help manage grit regeneration.


I think it all boils down to three points:

1. Anyone whining about kill-steals in D&D is missing the point and deserves a good slap across the face for wasting the group's time rather than custom-tailoring rules so he doesn't feel offended.

2. Any group trying to game the rules so that a gunslinger has more opportunities to recharge his awesomesauce is in for a world of hurt. Any semi-decent GM will see the tactical opening created by leaving near-dead foes standing, and he doesn't even need to do anything in particular to exploit it mercilessly - just roll with what the monsters would have done anyway, which in most cases means "try beating the heroes to a bloody pulp".

3. A gunslinger, like any other full BAB class, has plenty opportunities to deal killing blows casually while raining down lead on the foes, and while doing so, he also contributes fully to the team effort. A gunslinger who waits for foes to be near dead so he can drop them and reap the rewards is mostly baggage to the rest of the group.


The gunslinger could use the ability to recharge maybe temporary grit points? Intimidating an opponent, winning initiative, that sort of thing? Have these grit points last only as long as the combat he is in lasts? But keep a small pool of permanent ones?


Freesword wrote:
(Don't even mention "per encounter" and the nightmare of defining what constitutes and encounter.)

I have never had a problem with per encounter abilities and questions of recharge times, myself. I don't understand why others have such issues with them.


Well I plan to have goggle of Deathwatch on at all times......plus I've dmed for many many years and know the average stats of most monsters and tend to track their hp through out the battle according to averages in the books.... YOU WILL NEVER OUT LAST HIT ME!!!! MUAHAHAHA!

Edit - I know we are supose to work as a team and all that but I need grit to be effective , to get it I need to last hit. Sorry bro , I know we wanted him alive but I needz meh gritz. Cant you just animate him or something?

Brought to you by 'slinger productions....Dont KS me brah!!

Edit Edit - ...... .. .. ... If one of my comrades is at -6 , and we couldnt do much to save him , I would be tempted to last hit him for grit.


Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber; Pathfinder Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber

What I don't get is why there needs to be a recharge mechanic AT ALL. Simply raise the cap and throw out the recharge mechanic entirely. Let him get 1/2 gunslinger level + Wis mod at the start of each day and be done with it!

Why all this extra complication and hassle?


Ravingdork wrote:

What I don't get is why there needs to be a recharge mechanic AT ALL. Simply raise the cap and throw out the recharge mechanic entirely. Let him get 1/2 gunslinger level + Wis mod at the start of each day and be done with it!

Why all this extra complication and hassle?

Because it's fun and new, and not complicated at all?


amorangias wrote:
Ravingdork wrote:

What I don't get is why there needs to be a recharge mechanic AT ALL. Simply raise the cap and throw out the recharge mechanic entirely. Let him get 1/2 gunslinger level + Wis mod at the start of each day and be done with it!

Why all this extra complication and hassle?

Because it's fun and new, and not complicated at all?

This.


Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber; Pathfinder Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
amorangias wrote:
Ravingdork wrote:

What I don't get is why there needs to be a recharge mechanic AT ALL. Simply raise the cap and throw out the recharge mechanic entirely. Let him get 1/2 gunslinger level + Wis mod at the start of each day and be done with it!

Why all this extra complication and hassle?

Because it's fun and new, and not complicated at all?

Yesh. Having your players yelling at each other for "kill stealing" sounds like tons of fun! Not at all complicated either.


Maybe they should also get a chance to regain this stuff if they hit the target less than a round before it fell.

"You work together, you kill together!"

Add more grit points if the teamwork was especially effective, like when the gunslinger uses startling shot, enabling a rogue to sneak attack the enemy.


KaeYoss wrote:

Maybe they should also get a chance to regain this stuff if they hit the target less than a round before it fell.

"You work together, you kill together!"

Add more grit points if the teamwork was especially effective, like when the gunslinger uses startling shot, enabling a rogue to sneak attack the enemy.

Or at high level, combo stunning shot and dastardly finish, like in a recent topic - this time with the save ;)

Like it.


Disciple of Sakura wrote:
Freesword wrote:
(Don't even mention "per encounter" and the nightmare of defining what constitutes and encounter.)
I have never had a problem with per encounter abilities and questions of recharge times, myself. I don't understand why others have such issues with them.

If you gain 1 every time there is a new encounter, you get silliness like attacking a tree or getting into a slap fight with another PC to create an encounter to top off.

Full reset each new encounter works better, but runs into problems when you have multiple waves of enemies (is that all one encounter or one encounter per wave?). Also you have the possibility of novaing, withdrawing from the encounter, and then coming back to reset (more trouble than it's worth, but still a potential negative).

Of course my experience with recharge mechanics is from ToB, which was in some parts "pay for the privileged of playtesting".

I've never had a "whining about kill stealing" problem back in the days of individual XP tracked per kill.


While posting in another thread an idea hit me to get get rid of the whining.

When an ally drops an enemy, have the gunslinger roll a d4, on a 4 the gunslinger gains 1 grit. That way the you get a 25% chance of gaining grit even if someone else gets the kill.

Thinking about it some more, I would also keep the minimum HD requirement and perhaps I think I might limit it to once per round as well.

The Exchange

How about doubling the amount of grit regained by a crit if the crit results in massive damage, and tripling it if it results in both massive damage and death(whether it is actual hit point death or death from massive damage)? That would lessen the need to make the killing blow each time.

The Exchange

Freesword wrote:
When an ally drops an enemy, have the gunslinger roll a d4, on a 4 the gunslinger gains 1 grit. That way the you get a 25% chance of gaining grit even if someone else gets the kill.

I think I would require that the enemy be one that the gunslinger has contributed damage to. Sort of like, "Yeah, you killed him, but only after I chopped him down to size!"


Nightwish wrote:
Freesword wrote:
When an ally drops an enemy, have the gunslinger roll a d4, on a 4 the gunslinger gains 1 grit. That way the you get a 25% chance of gaining grit even if someone else gets the kill.
I think I would require that the enemy be one that the gunslinger has contributed damage to. Sort of like, "Yeah, you killed him, but only after I chopped him down to size!"

I like that.

In fact I like that better than my once per round limit.


Pathfinder Adventure, Starfinder Adventure Path Subscriber
'Rixx wrote:
I know that delivering the killing blow with a gun is supposed to be a random chance thing like scoring a critical - but if you put grit recovery in the hands of a player and give them incentive to whine if their "kills are being stolen", something that would otherwise be a non-issue, you pave the way for a lot of pettiness and table arguments.

Not an issue in any of the games I generally run (even at cons).

I guess it depends on your mix of group and the maturity - mostly they try and take em out one at a time and if swarmed, work together as a group. Clearing the guys from the squishies or freeing up the tanks to tear them up.

If your group is worried about kill stealing - put them in a situation where (i.e. lot's of little guys; goblins/kobolds) the situation reinforces teamwork.

or even have them talk tactics beforehand (roleplaying etc)it can really help. Let the gunslinger back off and protect the softer party members til the complainer realises that its harder to survive alone.


Again, how is "kill stealing" even possible? It's a team oriented game that rewards everybody in the party indiscriminately, not some FPS with individual performance tracking. Not to mention that the PCs don't know how much hp the enemies half the time anyway.

Complaining about the Gunslinger blowing off the head of the guy you've been full-attacking for three rounds makes you the metagamer, not her. There's nothing wrong with the class mechanic (well, in this manner anyway).


Ravingdork wrote:

What I don't get is why there needs to be a recharge mechanic AT ALL. Simply raise the cap and throw out the recharge mechanic entirely. Let him get 1/2 gunslinger level + Wis mod at the start of each day and be done with it!

Why all this extra complication and hassle?

I agree. The grit recovery mechanics seem very metagame-y to me. I'd rather have a simpler system (as above)

If you want to keep the crit and kill grit recovery, I'd move them to feats. Something like "Deadeye shot" and "Trail of bodies" They would be more fun then just a +X grit feat, but an optional part of the system (aka not core to the gunslinger class)

RPG Superstar 2015 Top 8

Khuldar wrote:
Ravingdork wrote:

What I don't get is why there needs to be a recharge mechanic AT ALL. Simply raise the cap and throw out the recharge mechanic entirely. Let him get 1/2 gunslinger level + Wis mod at the start of each day and be done with it!

Why all this extra complication and hassle?

I agree. The grit recovery mechanics seem very metagame-y to me. I'd rather have a simpler system (as above)

If you want to keep the crit and kill grit recovery, I'd move them to feats. Something like "Deadeye shot" and "Trail of bodies" They would be more fun then just a +X grit feat, but an optional part of the system (aka not core to the gunslinger class)

I agree. It also makes the grit mechanic consistent with other point/use based class ability mechanics--Barbarians don't regenerate Rage, Monks don't regenerate ki, Bards don't regenerate Performance.

The feat idea is cool.

Regarding the general gist of the thread, while I agree that a mature group of players are not going to argue about kill-stealing, there's still some kind of damage tracking that will end up being done by players trying to play their gunslinger tactically--and by their pals trying to help them. Keeping an eye on the enemy in character and maybe making a Perception or Heal check to determine if they are very hurt is not so unreasonable either. That's extra work for both players and GMs. Or the alternative is not paying attention to the class feature at all because someone deems it "unfair" or "metagaming" to be trying to track an enemy's health, which then just makes the ability useless or at least too risky to use--and then the point of the ability is lost.

RPG Superstar 2009 Top 32

Getting back resource for dropping a creature is NOT something brand new for the Gunslinger.

PRD-Hungry Ghost Monk wrote:
... At 5th level, a hungry ghost monk can steal ki from other creatures, though this ability is controversial in some circles of monks, who see it as nothing less than a form of vampirism. If the monk scores a confirmed critical hit against a living enemy or reduces a living enemy to 0 or fewer hit points, he can steal some of that creature's ki...

The ability of a Hungry Ghost Monk to recover ki energy is HUGE. You can almost use a ki every round. I play a Hungry Ghost Monk and use ki energy all the time, very rare I am not using it since they recover it so easily.

Now onto kill stealing. The gunslinger is the perfect kill stealer himself. He does not have to get into melee, at a ragne he sits back and "pops a cap into their arse".

He can delay waiting for the fighter and others to almost finish people off and then "steal the kill" himself. Perfect time usually have after the mage drops a maximised or empowered fireball on a bunch of mooks. How many times has this happend and there are a bunch knocking at deaths door. The gunslinger can kill steal and gain back a bunch of grit pop pop pop!

There will be times he can get the final shot in, and there will be times the others finish him off.

It has not caused any problems with our play if someone "steals a kill". So my monk cannot do is awesomeness all the time. He will get some ki energy back soon enough. While all other monks cannot replenish their ki energy without use of magic items or full nights rest.

Same goes with the gunslinger, he has these kewl powers he can use and possibly infinite useage.

Get your DM to agree it is dropping anything, have it written it down. Then go buy a bag of chickens, 2 copper each. For a gold a day you can put a cap into 50 chicken get back grit and have plenty to eat plus some to give to the orpahanage too!


OgeXam wrote:

Getting back resource for dropping a creature is NOT something brand new for the Gunslinger.

PRD-Hungry Ghost Monk wrote:
... At 5th level, a hungry ghost monk can steal ki from other creatures, though this ability is controversial in some circles of monks, who see it as nothing less than a form of vampirism. If the monk scores a confirmed critical hit against a living enemy or reduces a living enemy to 0 or fewer hit points, he can steal some of that creature's ki...

The ability of a Hungry Ghost Monk to recover ki energy is HUGE. You can almost use a ki every round. I play a Hungry Ghost Monk and use ki energy all the time, very rare I am not using it since they recover it so easily.

Now onto kill stealing. The gunslinger is the perfect kill stealer himself. He does not have to get into melee, at a ragne he sits back and "pops a cap into their arse".

He can delay waiting for the fighter and others to almost finish people off and then "steal the kill" himself. Perfect time usually have after the mage drops a maximised or empowered fireball on a bunch of mooks. How many times has this happend and there are a bunch knocking at deaths door. The gunslinger can kill steal and gain back a bunch of grit pop pop pop!

There will be times he can get the final shot in, and there will be times the others finish him off.

It has not caused any problems with our play if someone "steals a kill". So my monk cannot do is awesomeness all the time. He will get some ki energy back soon enough. While all other monks cannot replenish their ki energy without use of magic items or full nights rest.

Same goes with the gunslinger, he has these kewl powers he can use and possibly infinite useage.

Get your DM to agree it is dropping anything, have it written it down. Then go buy a bag of chickens, 2 copper each. For a gold a day you can put a cap into 50 chicken get back grit and have plenty to eat plus some to give to the orpahanage too!

For a life-energy sucking mystic, I don't have a problem with the kill mechanic. For a gunslinger, I ask myself "why is this here" it -feels- very meta to me. The rules and my vision of the archetype don't mesh. For other people, it might work fine. Both the HP and initiative systems are abstractions. Rules like this bring the mechanics to the fore, rather then running in the background...


Nightwish wrote:
How about doubling the amount of grit regained by a crit if the crit results in massive damage, and tripling it if it results in both massive damage and death(whether it is actual hit point death or death from massive damage)? That would lessen the need to make the killing blow each time.

It would also mean that you tie grit to an optional rule - which was made optional in Pathfinder because it was really unpopular.


Mahorfeus wrote:
Again, how is "kill stealing" even possible? It's a team oriented game

Kill stealing is the usual term to describe finishing off an enemy your ally all but killed.

Even we use it in our games. Not seriously, of course, but to tease each other.

Anyway, the underlying problem is this: In order to get something out of the situation, the gunslinger must kill the guy, i.e. make the killing shot.

There is no "kill assist" score giving him back his crit, there are no team skillshots. He has to be the one to deal the damage that reduces the guy to negative HP.

It can lead to tensions as a gunslinger player feels cheated out of grit when someone else finishes off his enemy, or he doesn't get to do a killing shot.

But even if nobody complains, it does put emphasis on who lands the final hit.


Khuldar wrote:
Both the HP and initiative systems are abstractions. Rules like this bring the mechanics to the fore, rather then running in the background

And an arbitrary n times per day is less of an abstraction?

Does tracking an arbitrary number of uses of an ability per day bring the mechanics less to the fore?

How is using one purely artificial construct of the game mechanics any less meta than using another?

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