Lightning Reload deed needs to be at level 1

[Melissa Litwin]

Lightning reload should be at level 1. It's super painful to only be able to shoot most weapons every other round until level 11, and it fixes a lot of the problems of gunslingers to be able to reload as a swift action from the beginning. I assume that both characters have to move up in the first round but can get full-round attacks in subsequent rounds. I also assume they usually Power Attack or Deadly Aim.

This will be a math-heavy thread, but it's not hard math. I will be comparing (equally geared and statted) a two-handed fighter to a two-handed gunslinger in damage potential at levels 1, 7, and 12 to show that this is a good change. Both are human.

Level 1
Fighter with 20 Str and a greatsword (2d6, 19-20/x2);
Feats: Furious Assault, Power Attack, Weapon Focus (Greatsword)
Greatsword +7 (2d6+7) or Power Attack (PA) +7 (2d6+10)

Gunslinger with 20 Dex and a musket (1d12, x4);
Feats: Point Blank Shot, Precise Shot
Musket +7 (1d12+1)

Conclusion: They both hit about the same, although the gunslinger is aiming at touch AC if within 20'. The fighter wins damage hands-down, with an average of 14 damage or 17 damage, while the gunslinger averages 7.5 damage. With lightning reload as it is, the gunslinger can only do this every other round, but with the suggested change it would be every round.

Level 7
Fighter with 23 Str and a +1 greatsword;
Feats: Cleave, Dodge, Furious Assault, Lunge, Power Attack, Vital Strike, Step Up, Weapon Focus (Greatsword), Weapon Specialization (Greatsword)
+1 Greatsword +16/+11 (2d6+13) or PA +16/+9 (2d6+19) or
PA and Vital Strike +16 (4d6+19)

Gunslinger with a 23 Dex and a +1 musket, always Vital Strike;
Feats: Deadly Aim, Point Blank Shot, Precise Shot, Rapid Reload, Vital Strike, Weapon Focus (Musket)
+1 Musket +16 (2d12+7) or Deadly Aim +14 (2d12+11) or
Dead Shot and Deadly Aim +14/+9 (up to 2d12 +11)

Conclusion: They both hit about the same, although the gunslinger is aiming at touch AC if within 20'. The fighter does vastly more damage for two reasons. She hits more often, and she does more damage per hit. In the first round, the fighter averages 45 damage, while the gunslinger averages 23 damage. In subsequent rounds, the fighter averages 52 damage if everything hits while the gunslinger still averages 24 damage. With lightning reload as it is, the gunslinger can only do this every other round, but with the suggested change it would be every round.

Level 12
Fighter with 26 Str, and a +2 greatsword (Crit 17-20/x2);
Feats: Cleave, Critical Focus, Dodge, Furious Assault, Greater Weapon Focus (Greatsword), Greater Weapon Specialization (Greatsword), Improved Critical (Greatsword), Improved Vital Strike, Lunge, Power Attack, Vital Strike, Step Up, Weapon Focus (Greatsword), Weapon Specialization (Greatsword)
+2 Greatsword +26/+21/+16 (2d6+20) or PA +26/+17/+12 (2d6+32) or
PA and Vital Strike +26 (6d6+32)

Gunslinger with a 26 Dex and a +2 musket (Crit 19-20/x4), always Vital Strike;
Feats: Critical Focus, Deadly Aim, Improved Critical (Musket), Improved Precise Shot, Improved Vital Strike, Point Blank Shot, Precise Shot, Rapid Reload, Vital Strike, Weapon Focus (Musket)
+2 Musket +24 (3d12+11) or Deadly Aim +22 (3d12+19) or
Dead Shot and Deadly Aim +22/+17/+12 (up to 3d12 +19)

Conclusion: They both hit about the same, although the gunslinger is aiming at touch AC if within 20'. The fighter does vastly more damage for two reasons. She hits more often, and she does more damage per hit. In the first round, the fighter averages 61 damage, while the gunslinger averages 38.5 damage. In subsequent rounds, the fighter averages 135 damage if everything hits, which isn't actually terribly likely, while the gunslinger still averages 38.5 damage. In the current iteration, the gunslinger finally has lightning reload.

TL; DR: I'm not arguing that gunslingers need higher damage. They almost always hit, so it's not bad that their damage potential is low. I am saying that they need to be able to do their damage every round starting from level one, and the easiest way to do that is to move lightning reload from a level 11 deed to a level 1 deed.

[Borthos Brewhammer]

Actually, with the musket, the gunslinger is hitting touch AC at 40'. With this math, wouldn't it be more sound to put it at level 7? before 6, you're only firing once per round (we're talking musket not TWF) anyway. Take Rapid Reload at 4 and use some alchemical cartridges for 3 more levels until lightning reload

[Melissa Litwin]

Borthos Brewhammer wrote:

Actually, with the musket, the gunslinger is hitting touch AC at 40'. With this math, wouldn't it be more sound to put it at level 7? before 6, you're only firing once per round (we're talking musket not TWF) anyway. Take Rapid Reload at 4 and use some alchemical cartridges for 3 more levels until lightning reload

The reason to put it at level 1 is that even with Rapid Reload, it's still a standard action to reload a musket. So instead of firing once per round, you're firing once every other round until level 7 if Lightning Reload is at 7. That's not a fun play style, at least to me.

Thanks for pointing out that muskets have 40' range. I missed that.

[Borthos Brewhammer]

Melissa Litwin wrote:

Borthos Brewhammer wrote:

Actually, with the musket, the gunslinger is hitting touch AC at 40'. With this math, wouldn't it be more sound to put it at level 7? before 6, you're only firing once per round (we're talking musket not TWF) anyway. Take Rapid Reload at 4 and use some alchemical cartridges for 3 more levels until lightning reload

The reason to put it at level 1 is that even with Rapid Reload, it's still a standard action to reload a musket. So instead of firing once per round, you're firing once every other round until level 7 if Lightning Reload is at 7. That's not a fun play style.

Thanks for pointing out that muskets have 40' range. I missed that.

That's why I mentioned the Alchemical Cartridges, though. It's a move action, so you CAN shoot each turn. What the 'slinger needs is a class feature that reduces the misfire chance.

[Melissa Litwin]

Borthos Brewhammer wrote:

That's why I mentioned the Alchemical Cartridges, though. It's a move action, so you CAN shoot each turn. What the 'slinger needs is a class feature that reduces the misfire chance.

I completely agree. Gunslingers are gun masters, and guns only misfire if they're poorly put together (masterwork quality, which probably happens at level 2, says it's good quality) or if the user mistreats the gun ('slingers won't, they are gun masters). I'd get rid of misfire for 'slingers altogether as a class feature.

Alchemical cartridges do make it a move action to reload, which does fix the problem. But I'd rather see it be a base part of the class than requiring players to read random additional items to make the class work. I like poring over books, and so do many other people, but there are people who would rather just pick up a class because it's neat. They don't want to spend hours thinking and reading about the game, and they shouldn't have to.

[Elghinn Lightbringer]

Borthos Brewhammer wrote:

That's why I mentioned the Alchemical Cartridges, though. It's a move action, so you CAN shoot each turn. What the 'slinger needs is a class feature that reduces the misfire chance.

That's why gunslingers should be able to "add" the "Reliable Gun" and "Steadfast Gun" magic weapon abilities to their own guns. However, these would not be magic based, but tech based, simple upgrades or "innovations" to improve their guns. the gunslinger should be able to do this themselves. The magic item abilities of the same name are nice, but should be secondary to the gunslinger's ability to do it without magic, and should be primarily for other nongunlsingers to beable to improve their guns.

I would suggest, that they be added to the Gunsmith feature. Lets say, add "Reliable" at 6th level (it takes 8th level caster to enchanct with magic the weapon ability) to your firearm, and "Steadfast" at 10th level (it's 12th for the caster level). There is a difference between learning to improve the early firearms, than to create new Advanced firearms.

Logically, trial and error experimentation through the levels would lend itself to learning to fix the misfires of the early firearms. Then, what they had learned through this process would lead to the better Advanced firearm development, thus the lack of misfires being the new standard with advanced firearms.